Confessional Lutherans in ELCA

[C.F.W. Walther]

Wondering what mainline ELCA members think of this ELCA confessional site. I found this site not really looking for it but actually looking for info on someone I think that could really be one of the most influential confessional Lutherans of the 20th century. I really havn't seen much info on this man. His name is Hans Lilje. He was scheduled to be executed by Hitler personally close to the end of the war.

I found a book in my "collection" of books handed down by my father that I hadn't really paid any attention to until I cracked the cover 2 days ago. This mans all incompasing insite into the historical perspective of huminism and the enlightened period which affected Luther's effect on the reformation movement, the modern course of the Lutheran church and an evangelical understanding of the faith is really impressive. He voiced some serious concerns.

Oh yea--- the book is titled "Luther Now" by Hans Lilje


:)

[RedneckAnglican]

I'll have to look for that...

and you'd be amazed...there are several "Confessional Lutherans" floating around the ELCA...Just look at the WordAlone, LCMC, LCCC, or Solidrock Lutheran movements...

[C.F.W. Walther]

One other thing that Lilje voiced as a concern was the course that the Church had abandoned its basic faith in the reliability of the Bible. Shades of modern days. That was over 50 years ago.

[LutherNut]

Wondering what mainline ELCA members think of this ELCA confessional site. I found this site not really looking for it but actually looking for info on someone I think that could really be one of the most influential confessional Lutherans of the 20th century.

What site would that be? :scratch:

[C.F.W. Walther]

Oh sorry---forgot the site :doh:

http://www.foclnews.org/v0303.htm

[C.F.W. Walther]

I can't imagine there isn't one comment about the conservative faction in the ELCA........or the LCMS. I don't think it's something that can be ignored in either synods or in any of the 20 Lutheran denoms. Just ignoring it wouldn't make it go away.

Trying to stir things up---you bet!!!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Protoevangel]

I can't imagine there isn't one comment about the conservative faction in the ELCA........or the LCMS. I don't think it's something that can be ignored in either synods or in any of the 20 Lutheran denoms. Just ignoring it wouldn't make it go away.

Trying to stir things up---you bet!!!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Your OP was addressed to "mainline ELCA members". I don't consider myself mainline ELCA, and am not even sure of my future with the ELCA. I don't even know if I could contribure to this thread right now. Sorry.

[Bollman]

and you'd be amazed...there are several "Confessional Lutherans" floating around the ELCA...Just look at the WordAlone, LCMC, LCCC, or Solidrock Lutheran movements...

I can speak to that. We are out there. I am a youth leader/lay minister at an LCMC church. It is a exciting time to work with such a grassroots organization.

There are disadvantages of being linked to such a small group. Job options are often limited and there are few options for us education wise. After looking at other options I opted for taking grad courses at a non-denom evangelical school.

Bollman

[C.F.W. Walther]

LCMC and the WordAlone Network are legally separate nonprofit corporations with different purposes and goals, even though individual congregations are frequently members of both organizations. The WordAlone Network is an association of both individuals and congregations committed to the reform and renewal of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The WordAlone Network commissioned and nurtured LCMC as a Lutheran church body home for congregations seeking to fulfill the Great Commission without depending on the ELCA. But, despite differences in objectives, LCMC and the WordAlone Network are absolutely committed to cooperation, and, where practical, both organizations will engage in joint projects and educational efforts. Bollman--- I wonder what the "differances in objectives" are?

[IowaLutheran]

I believe the different objective would be that LCMC congregations no longer want to stay in the ELCA and be a "reforming movement" - they want to start over in a new denomination.

[SPALATIN]

I believe the different objective would be that LCMC congregations no longer want to stay in the ELCA and be a "reforming movement" - they want to start over in a new denomination.

yet from what I understand they would not be able to join the LCMS because they have adapted women's ordination from their ELCA founding. They would have to start their own synod.

[IowaLutheran]

yet from what I understand they would not be able to join the LCMS because they have adapted women's ordination from their ELCA founding. They would have to start their own synod.


Exactly. And that is what they have done:

http://www.lcmc.net/

[SPALATIN]

Exactly. And that is what they have done:

http://www.lcmc.net/



Last I heard it was not legitimately called a "synod" per se.

[IowaLutheran]

Last I heard it was not legitimately called a "synod" per se.

You're right again. In looking at the Q&A section of their site I don't think they view themselves as a "denomination" or "synod" in the sense of ELCA, LCMS, or WELS. Rather, they view themselves a rather loose organization of free Lutheran churches. I could be mistaken, if someone from the LCMC wants to correct me.

http://www.lcmc.net/qanda.html

An LCMC church in my town has a woman pastor so you are also right about the fact that they would not be welcome in the LCMS.

[Bollman]

One of the founding principals was local control without bishops-- Word Alone-- Christ Centered-- congregational decision making. LCMC is divided into smaller, loosely connected groups called districts that share information and meet regularly. Most are regional but some are theological. At one point, my former pastor said that our district had but one thing, a cork screw in order to open the bottle of wine during their yearly gathering. The freedom is awesome... but we are a bit on an island.

Hope that answers your questions.

Bollman

[KEPLER]

You're right again. In looking at the Q&A section of their site I don't think they view themselves as a "denomination" or "synod" in the sense of ELCA, LCMS, or WELS. Rather, they view themselves a rather loose organization of free Lutheran churches. I could be mistaken, if someone from the LCMC wants to correct me.

http://www.lcmc.net/qanda.html

An LCMC church in my town has a woman pastor so you are also right about the fact that they would not be welcome in the LCMS.

If I recall, LCMC was the group that decided to retain the ordination of women who had joined, but not not ordain any more? There is some group that did that, at any rate.

K

[LutherNut]

Exactly. And that is what they have done:

http://www.lcmc.net/



The LCMC is actually an arm of the ELCA. Most of the member congregations in the LCMC are also ELCA congregations. It is the same with the Word Alone group.

[Bollman]

LCMC churches vote to leave the ELCA while WordAlone churches stay in and try and reform the church organization. Some pastors are both LCMC and ELCA.

Bollman

[IowaLutheran]

The LCMC is actually an arm of the ELCA. Most of the member congregations in the LCMC are also ELCA congregations. It is the same with the Word Alone group.

The LCMC does not in any way consider itself to be an arm of the ELCA - their legal counsel has stated that they are a separate Lutheran church body:

http://www.lcmc.net/PDFfiles/LCMCLutheranChurchBody.pdf

[LutherNut]

LCMC churches vote to leave the ELCA while WordAlone churches stay in and try and reform the church organization. Some pastors are both LCMC and ELCA.

Bollman

Some congregations are both LCMC and ELCA.

[LutherNut]

The LCMC does not in any way consider itself to be an arm of the ELCA - their legal counsel has stated that they are a separate Lutheran church body:

http://www.lcmc.net/PDFfiles/LCMCLutheranChurchBody.pdf

But since the ELCA does not just let congregations leave, and congregations that wish to leave are not permitted to affiliate with another church body for at least a full calendar year after the completion of all of the hoop jumping they have to do or else they will lose their property and assets (the process explained to me by a local ELCA pastor), those LCMC congregations that are also ELCA are governed by the ELCA. How can the LCMC be a spearate church body when so many of their member congregations are run be the ELCA?

[IowaLutheran]

But since the ELCA does not just let congregations leave, and congregations that wish to leave are not permitted to affiliate with another church body for at least a full calendar year after the completion of all of the hoop jumping they have to do or else they will lose their property and assets (the process explained to me by a local ELCA pastor), those LCMC congregations that are also ELCA are governed by the ELCA. How can the LCMC be a spearate church body when so many of their member congregations are run be the ELCA?

You'll have to ask an LCMC person why some choose to remain in a dual affiliation.

I don't think that that is a correct understanding of ELCA policy. According to the model constitution, it appears that as long as a 2/3 majority of a congregation, by way of 2 separate votes taken 90 days apart, votes to affiliate with another Lutheran church body, then they keep their property.

http://www.elca.org/secretary/constitutions/congregations/

[BigNorsk]

I am not aware of the ELCA actually ever even attempting to take the property from the congregation, or for that matter, keeping the property for a minority of the congregation. Is anyone else?

It should be noted that even in the case of becoming independant or affiliating with something other than another Lutheran synod, the property still remains with the members of the congregation that want to remain with the ELCA unless the synod gives approval.

It should also be noted that many congregations that haven't updated their constitutions would not necessarily have even these provisions in their constitution, but most probably have something similar.

I'm pretty sure that the ELCA would discourage congregations from leaving, but I am not aware of them using such provisions to prevent congregations from leaving by saying the ELCA would take the property.

Something needs to be in constitutions to handle the congregational splits that occur.

I see the LCMS has this suggestion and it should be noted that the LCMS requires synod approval of congregational constitutions.

9.0 DIVISION
It is an unhappy fact of life that disagreements do occur even in Christian congregations, and that
at times the result is not reconciliation but a parting of the ways. It is best to set down the
principles far in advance which shall govern such a situation if it should ever arise.
Example:
9.1 If at any time a division should take place for any reason, the property of the
congregation and all benefits connected therewith shall remain with those
communicant members who continue to adhere in confession and practice to the
confessional standards set forth in this constitution, as determined by the dispute
resolution process described in the Bylaws of the Synod.
9.2 In the event the congregation should dissolve, the property and all rights
connected therewith shall be transferred to that District of the Synod in which the
congregation held membership at the time of dissolution.

I think some people think the ELCA has the same sort of property arrangement that the Roman Catholic church has, but it doesn't.

Marv

[SPALATIN]

I am not aware of the ELCA actually ever even attempting to take the property from the congregation, or for that matter, keeping the property for a minority of the congregation. Is anyone else?

It should be noted that even in the case of becoming independant or affiliating with something other than another Lutheran synod, the property still remains with the members of the congregation that want to remain with the ELCA unless the synod gives approval.

It should also be noted that many congregations that haven't updated their constitutions would not necessarily have even these provisions in their constitution, but most probably have something similar.

I'm pretty sure that the ELCA would discourage congregations from leaving, but I am not aware of them using such provisions to prevent congregations from leaving by saying the ELCA would take the property.

Something needs to be in constitutions to handle the congregational splits that occur.

I see the LCMS has this suggestion and it should be noted that the LCMS requires synod approval of congregational constitutions.


I think some people think the ELCA has the same sort of property arrangement that the Roman Catholic church has, but it doesn't.

Marv

I don't think the the ELCA would have a problem with a congregation leaving if that was the will of the members of the congregation and there had been the proper voting procedure involved in the vote. However,

ELCA does maintain ownership of the property of the church building. This would mean that the Synod could offer to the congregation the right to buy or purchase the building from the Synod or they could leave the building and find other accomodations to hold their services.

[LutherNut]

You'll have to ask an LCMC person why some choose to remain in a dual affiliation.

I don't think that that is a correct understanding of ELCA policy. According to the model constitution, it appears that as long as a 2/3 majority of a congregation, by way of 2 separate votes taken 90 days apart, votes to affiliate with another Lutheran church body, then they keep their property.

http://www.elca.org/secretary/constitutions/congregations/

As it was explained to me...

A congregation may vote to leave affiliation with the ELCA by a two thirds majority. After this, the bishop of the synod comes in to address the congregation (most likely an attempt to keep the congregation from leaving) and a second vote is taken and must be a two thirds majority to leave the ELCA. After the second vote is successful, the congregation must be independant for one full calendar year. They are neither to join another church body nor even publically entertain the notion of affiliating with another church body during that year, or else the congregation will forfeit all of its property and assets.

My question is whether or not there is a difference in policy between former LCA congregations and former ALC congregations.

[Bollman]

I can tell you for certain that my home church left the ELCA about five-six years ago. We had two votes about it and yes a bishop did come in and try and discourage the process. We voted to leave and kept both our property and our beautiful church.

I have seen the same process take place in other neighboring Lutheran churches. If they vote to leave they leave. I haven't seen any power struggles over property.

Also, we called an ELCA pastor to our LCMC church last year. I know the process wasn't very easy for him. His bishop really came after him wanting him not to leave and suggesting a lot of negative consequences if he left. Did did accept our call and left his ELCA affiliation.

I also know of an interim pastor with the LCMC that is retired from the ELCA but still is affliated with them. I have no idea why he keeps connects with both. Perhaps to keep options open.

Bollman

[C.F.W. Walther]

I would just like to see the "synod" of any denomination try to seize the real property or assets on any church body if the money was donated by the parishoners for the building of the physical building and not backed by any note from the "synod" or financial institution of said synod. Could cause a problem.