God killing?

[zhilan]

I went to a Baptist service this last weekend. The preacher was talking about how God does not punish non-believers, only those who are saved. He said it is like how you spank your own children but not other people's children. He said if you are saved and you sin then God will punish you, but if you keep sinning He will just kill you to take you home (I guess you would go to heaven, but it wasn't entirely clear to me from the sermon). Is this general Baptist belief? Thanks.

[Jebediah]

I went to a Baptist service this last weekend. The preacher was talking about how God does not punish non-believers, only those who are saved. He said it is like how you spank your own children but not other people's children. He said if you are saved and you sin then God will punish you, but if you keep sinning He will just kill you to take you home (I guess you would go to heaven, but it wasn't entirely clear to me from the sermon). Is this general Baptist belief? Thanks.

Not at my church. God does not punish at all, sin punishes, the same way our judicial system doesn't (hopefully) punish people, the crime they committed does. Sin and its results are our fault, not God's. God is perfectly just and and perfectly moral...if someone is guilty he can't not send them to hell at judgement and still be just. Thankfully, Christ solves that issue.

I think that the idea was to scare you that if you sin God will strike you dead. That's just not okay, IMHO. One should pursue the good because it is the good, not out of fear of punishment or promise of reward.

[MrJim]

Hey Zhilan,

I ain't touching that one-I'll let the baptists play with it. I've heard something along this line myself though it's been many years ago.

[Flynmonkie]

I went to a Baptist service this last weekend. The preacher was talking about how God does not punish non-believers, only those who are saved. He said it is like how you spank your own children but not other people's children. He said if you are saved and you sin then God will punish you, but if you keep sinning He will just kill you to take you home (I guess you would go to heaven, but it wasn't entirely clear to me from the sermon). Is this general Baptist belief? Thanks.
:wave:
God does not punish us. Sin, Sickness, crime, sadness etc are products of this world "the flesh”. God allows or disallows us to suffer the consequence of our own action. Actually, God has done more protecting than anything else. As a Christian we have that promise from Him. No we are not promised it will be easy living here, but we are promised there is a way through this life, by walking with Him. Remember the footprints poem? How often God carries us through times of trouble. If we make mistakes in our walk, God allows us, just as any human parent to suffer the consequence of our choice. Does this make sense? God kills us and takes us home by making mistakes? I am not sure what your pastor was getting at with these comments?


I also see no difference in the saved or unsaved in this matter. All suffer the consequence of action. Christians however, learn spiritual lessons from those consequences where as non-believers don't.

[zhilan]

Yeah, it seemed a little odd ot me. But it's a really big Baptist church (I think the biggest church in the eastern united states) http://www.bellevue.org/ (http://www.bellevue.org/templates/cusbellevue1103/default.asp?id=1360) so I thought then I should ask you guys because it's not like some tiny nowhere sub-group. Thanks for your responses!

[Flynmonkie]

No, it doesn't look to be at all small or sub anything. It seems clearly a SBC church? I am not very educated on the variations of the SBC churches, but that statement is very interesting to me – I am a member of an SBC church and I have never heard such a thing? There might be someone here that could explain such a variation within the SBC?

It might have been a situation where you misunderstood I have done this before. Sometimes pastors can become hard to follow in their thinking process. And I sit back and think huh? In fact I have posted a few times on things I have heard because they just didn't sound right. But I can say if this pastor stated that God Kills those Christians whom don’t get it – I have no idea his scripture basis Baptist or not!

Is it possible you call the church and have them explain what they meant by this? I would. I think it is important. Not just for clarification of the issue, but to understand what they are “really” teaching there? :eek:

[zhilan]

No, it doesn't look to be at all small or sub anything. It seems clearly a SBC church? I am not very educated on the variations of the SBC churches, but that statement is very interesting to me – I am a member of an SBC church and I have never heard such a thing? There might be someone here that could explain such a variation within the SBC?

It might have been a situation where you misunderstood I have done this before. Sometimes pastors can become hard to follow in their thinking process. And I sit back and think huh? In fact I have posted a few times on things I have heard because they just didn't sound right. But I can say if this pastor stated that God Kills those Christians whom don’t get it – I have no idea his scripture basis Baptist or not!

Is it possible you call the church and have them explain what they meant by this? I would. I think it is important. Not just for clarification of the issue, but to understand what they are “really” teaching there? :eek:

I was also thinking it was possible I just misunderstood, but it really seemed to me that's what he was saying and my friend who I was with also understood that. I suppose I could call although I wouln't really know where to do that since this is not my church or even my state. I was just visiting there and decided to attend. I know that the pastor is new there as their old pastor just died recently. As I said, he used the example about how you only discipline your own children and how because he is saved when he does something wrong God lets him know, but if your not saved God won't punish you and he said, let me think, I think his words were if you keep trying to act against Him, God will eventually just take you home and he quoted some scripture about this but unfortunately I forget what it was.

[Project 86]

For those that say God doesn't punish did you think this changed when we got to the NT? The OT is very clear that God punishes unless you want to call him a liar. If he doesn't punish now I would like biblical evidence, not some man made thought process which anyone can come up with.

[Flynmonkie]

Would you care to provide me with scripture I will surely review your concerns and tell you what I think of course with scripture :)

[Flynmonkie]

I was also thinking it was possible I just misunderstood, but it really seemed to me that's what he was saying and my friend who I was with also understood that. I suppose I could call although I wouldn’t really know where to do that since this is not my church or even my state. I was just visiting there and decided to attend. I know that the pastor is new there as their old pastor just died recently. As I said, he used the example about how you only discipline your own children and how because he is saved when he does something wrong God lets him know, but if your not saved God won't punish you and he said, let me think, I think his words were if you keep trying to act against Him, God will eventually just take you home and he quoted some scripture about this but unfortunately I forget what it was.

Yes I have heard of Adrian Rogers, their old pastor. But I don’t know much about him. Wow, It might be an area I need to understand better? I can say there is an old "country" saying when we become discouraged watching those that are doing "evil" seem to get away with and living “High on the Hog”. “Satan doesn't mess with His own.” Why should He? He has them already. One of the things I have learned, as a Christian is that some people look for their rewards here, Christians look for our rewards in Heaven. What we are instructed to do here is rejoice in the blessings and hold dear to the virtues God teaches us. We might not see any results while here (hopefully so at times!) But really our rewards are being stored up in heaven.

I can also say that God allows us to suffer consequence because how else would we learn? Of course He uses this to teach his children. But I can agree that those whom don't believe or have faith - what would be the point unless He is using this as a means to "wake them up" or call them to Him? Those whom are not saved will not understand those spiritual lessons from God via our mistakes. But we can never know how God is working in others lives - it is considered none of our business! I could never really know what is going on in your heart any more than you can know mine. This is Gods job!

I would like to know what that was about, it sounds very interesting for sure!

[Joykins]

I have heard some say that if a believer backslides into a life of sin and goes to far, God may take them home (have them die in some way) rather than allowing them to persist in a life of sin.

I don't know if this is scriptural...all I can think of is


Hebrews 6:4-8

[mesue]

I went to a Baptist service this last weekend. The preacher was talking about how God does not punish non-believers, only those who are saved. He said it is like how you spank your own children but not other people's children. He said if you are saved and you sin then God will punish you, but if you keep sinning He will just kill you to take you home (I guess you would go to heaven, but it wasn't entirely clear to me from the sermon). Is this general Baptist belief? Thanks.
God says He will punish the world. We, who are saved, are not of the world.
Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Jesus said we are not of this world

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

[mesue]

Oh, phooey! :doh: I hit submit reply


and don't confuse punish with chastise. Loving parents chatise their children when they do wrong, so does our loving Father


Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

[mesue]

Hey! The Bible got ***'ed.

Who would censor God?

[JPPT1974]

I don't think God kills at all.
Back in the Old Testament days, if you disobey God, you paid with your lives.
I look at it this way. God knows these days when you are supposed to go.
And it is His clock that we are on.
And when it's up it is up.
No ands, ifs, nor buts!

[mlqurgw]

There is absolutely no doubt that God punishes sin. The wages of sin is death. Rom. 6:23 His strict unbending justice demands satisfaction for sin. Those who go to everlasting destruction do so as a punishment for sin. God did punish sin though for some in a substitute, Christ Jesus the Lord. He made Him to be sin who knew no sin and He suffered the just for the unjust.2Cor. 5:21, 1Pet. 3:18 He put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself and obtained eternal redemption. Heb.9:26, 9:11 Those for whom Christ died can never be punished, God has already punished them in Christ. He does, however, chastise and correct. Heb. 12: 5-11 there is a difference between punishment and chatisement. Punishment is done in wrath, chatisement is done in love.

[arunma]

I went to a Baptist service this last weekend. The preacher was talking about how God does not punish non-believers, only those who are saved. He said it is like how you spank your own children but not other people's children. He said if you are saved and you sin then God will punish you, but if you keep sinning He will just kill you to take you home (I guess you would go to heaven, but it wasn't entirely clear to me from the sermon). Is this general Baptist belief? Thanks.

I think there is sufficient evidence in the Bible that God does punish unbelievers. The Lord destroyed the Canaanites when Israel entered the Promised Land to dispossess them. Just last Sunday at church, my pastor recounted the story of how the Lord saved Israel from King Sennacherib, when he came to Jerusalem with a large army. Because King Hezekiah went to the Temple and prayed to God. Therefore, Christ (that is, the Angel of the Lord) came in his glory and destroyed 185,000 of Sennacherib's men. Let us also not forget that God killed King Herod because he blasphemed him before the people (in fact, this one is recorded by a secular historian as well). Therefore, it seems to me that God does kill unbelievers as well as believers.

But I agree with this pastor on this much: when God punishes believers, he does so for our benefit, so that we will repent of our sins and continue in his faith. When God punishes unbelievers, he sometimes does so in order to fulfill his divine justice and wrath. Therefore, the condition of the punished believer is far better than that of the suffering unbeliever.

[Project 86]

I think there is sufficient evidence in the Bible that God does punish unbelievers. The Lord destroyed the Canaanites when Israel entered the Promised Land to dispossess them. Just last Sunday at church, my pastor recounted the story of how the Lord saved Israel from King Sennacherib, when he came to Jerusalem with a large army. Because King Hezekiah went to the Temple and prayed to God. Therefore, Christ (that is, the Angel of the Lord) came in his glory and destroyed 185,000 of Sennacherib's men. Let us also not forget that God killed King Herod because he blasphemed him before the people (in fact, this one is recorded by a secular historian as well). Therefore, it seems to me that God does kill unbelievers as well as believers.

But I agree with this pastor on this much: when God punishes believers, he does so for our benefit, so that we will repent of our sins and continue in his faith. When God punishes unbelievers, he sometimes does so in order to fulfill his divine justice and wrath. Therefore, the condition of the punished believer is far better than that of the suffering unbeliever.

Great post arunma. I like to listen to your pastor on the radio from time to time when I drive to work. Even though I disagree with him when he goes on one of his calvinist promoting rants. ;)

[arunma]

Great post arunma. I like to listen to your pastor on the radio from time to time when I drive to work. Even though I disagree with him when he goes on one of his calvinist promoting rants. ;)

Hey, no problem. The way I see it, if you hear enough of Pastor John's Calvinism, maybe you'll start to believe it. :D

Oh by the way, you do know that you can also listen to his sermons, right? They're all on the Desiring God website.

[TwinCrier]

God can take life just as He gves life but I don't know that I call that "killing." I try not to state what God can and cannot do.
1 Corinthians 11:30-31 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep (meaning death). For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Christians are not immune from the consequences of sin. There are instances in the bible of God casing the immediate death of someone though. I know we tend to dismiss verses like this when it doesn't fit our view of how God should be, but if God is God, He certainly can take a person's life.

[arunma]

Christians are not immune from the consequences of sin.

And in fact, it was sin that provoked God to kill an entire generation of Israelites (members of God's church) when Moses led them in the desert. It would certainly be ignorant and unbiblical to claim that God does not kill his own people on account of sin.

[Flynmonkie]

Before I get too deep into this ---I wanted to ask a question. Can any one of you give me an example of a time God has punished you?

[arunma]

Before I get too deep into this ---I wanted to ask a question. Can any one of you give me an example of a time God has punished you?

That's a good question. Off hand, I cannot, because I don't have any prophetic revelation from God. I suppose that I should be looking more closely for the word of God. After all, it does say, "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart." (Romans 10:8).

[mesue]

Before I get too deep into this ---I wanted to ask a question. Can any one of you give me an example of a time God has punished you?
I have been chastised of God. I was not following His will and became gravely ill. I stopped doing what He didn't want me to do and became better again. He showed me a lot of things during that period in time. I could have done without the illness, but the lessons I have learned from it are priceless.
But to say I was punished? No. My condemnation was taken away when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior.