Messianic Gentiles

[Ivy]

I hope no one will take my comments here following as being in any way about them--as you can't tell what people's actual backgrounds are from cyberspace, anyway--but I do want to air a feeling of frustration I've had for awhile. What I'm saying relates to some individuals I've known personally in the Messianic movement.

To put it simply, I feel some Gentiles may be misusing the movement a little, though probably not with any conscious intent to.

The Messianic movement evolved mainly by and for genuinely Jewish persons who believe in Yeshua as Messiah and who wish to continue worshipping according to the traditions of Israel. However, I don't think it was ever intended as a platform for the use of Gentiles who have issues (some justifiable) with their native churches, a platform from which they can now freely disparage their fellow Gentiles. Individuals like this need to go back and discuss their issues with the leaders in the church they came from, per Jesus' instructions in Matthew.

When there's an atmosphere of disparagement going on, this can reflect very negatively on the Messianic movement in the minds of some Christians. And when a Christian expresses contempt for a Jew or their practices, or a Jew for a Christian, or a Messianic Gentile for Christians, or Christians for Messianic Gentiles--it doesn't impart "grace to those who hear," per the admonition of Scripture. As Proverbs says, scorn and contempt cause quarrels, and these will never promote the beautiful, divinely-designed partnership between Jewish and Gentile believers that God desires.

So I've said my bit, albeit that I'm a newbie :-) And thanks for listening. :-)

[plum]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us :) I'm sure that we can look into every aspect of life on this earth (sadly this includes how we live together in faith and community) and see how sin has corrupted it.

I think your point about how our personal behavior, attitudes, and motivations reflect poorly on ourselves and even he whole Messianic movement (or any movement one is involved in where there is shown more human nature than G-d's nature). Any time we speak negatively about another group or person we are most likely lacking in charity and love for them.

We should be aware of the powers of our tongues.

[Graceful]

Ivy


I just wanted to say hello :wave:

Grace (light)

[Ivy]

Ivy


I just wanted to say hello :wave:

Grace (light)

Hey, buddy! I didn't realize that was you for a minute. :wave: :hug:

[Ivy]

Ivy


I just wanted to say hello :wave:

Grace (light)


Hey, buddy! :wave: I didn't realize that was you for a minute because of your different name. Another pretty name you picked. :hug:

[Tishri1]

I hope no one will take my comments here following as being in any way about them--as you can't tell what people's actual backgrounds are from cyberspace, anyway--but I do want to air a feeling of frustration I've had for awhile. What I'm saying relates to some individuals I've known personally in the Messianic movement.

To put it simply, I feel some Gentiles may be misusing the movement a little, though probably not with any conscious intent to.

The Messianic movement evolved mainly by and for genuinely Jewish persons who believe in Yeshua as Messiah and who wish to continue worshipping according to the traditions of Israel. However, I don't think it was ever intended as a platform for the use of Gentiles who have issues (some justifiable) with their native churches, a platform from which they can now freely disparage their fellow Gentiles. Individuals like this need to go back and discuss their issues with the leaders in the church they came from, per Jesus' instructions in Matthew.

When there's an atmosphere of disparagement going on, this can reflect very negatively on the Messianic movement in the minds of some Christians. And when a Christian expresses contempt for a Jew or their practices, or a Jew for a Christian, or a Messianic Gentile for Christians, or Christians for Messianic Gentiles--it doesn't impart "grace to those who hear," per the admonition of Scripture. As Proverbs says, scorn and contempt cause quarrels, and these will never promote the beautiful, divinely-designed partnership between Jewish and Gentile believers that God desires.

So I've said my bit, albeit that I'm a newbie :-) And thanks for listening. :-)I could hug you right now Ivy:hug:....You are soooo right! We spend way to much time cutting people down don't we! I think a hurt and resentful heart has alot to do with it, my self...and I am guilty of reacting that way too, but the truth is we are all one in Messiah and should try to act like it more

[Wags]

Have to admit - I've read and reread the origional post and I can't figure out what the question is???

Doesn't sound like a fellwoship post - so there must be a question in there somewhere???

[Tishri1]

I think it's a fellowship post:wave:

[DiddyDon]

Here's a question Tishri1: Is there such a thing as a Kosher Christian?

[Tishri1]

Here's a question Tishri1: Is there such a thing as a Kosher Christian?A "clean" Christian or a christian who eats the right/acceptable foods?

[Ivy]

Have to admit - I've read and reread the origional post and I can't figure out what the question is???

Doesn't sound like a fellwoship post - so there must be a question in there somewhere???

It's a plea for better fellowship. :) (probably pushing the envelope a little though, I know :holy: )

[Simonline]

I hope no one will take my comments here following as being in any way about them--as you can't tell what people's actual backgrounds are from cyberspace, anyway--but I do want to air a feeling of frustration I've had for awhile. What I'm saying relates to some individuals I've known personally in the Messianic movement.

To put it simply, I feel some Gentiles may be misusing the movement a little, though probably not with any conscious intent to.

The Messianic movement evolved mainly by and for genuinely Jewish persons who believe in Yeshua as Messiah and who wish to continue worshipping according to the traditions of Israel. However, I don't think it was ever intended as a platform for the use of Gentiles who have issues (some justifiable) with their native churches, a platform from which they can now freely disparage their fellow Gentiles. Individuals like this need to go back and discuss their issues with the leaders in the church they came from, per Jesus' instructions in Matthew.

When there's an atmosphere of disparagement going on, this can reflect very negatively on the Messianic movement in the minds of some Christians. And when a Christian expresses contempt for a Jew or their practices, or a Jew for a Christian, or a Messianic Gentile for Christians, or Christians for Messianic Gentiles--it doesn't impart "grace to those who hear," per the admonition of Scripture. As Proverbs says, scorn and contempt cause quarrels, and these will never promote the beautiful, divinely-designed partnership between Jewish and Gentile believers that God desires.

So I've said my bit, albeit that I'm a newbie :-) And thanks for listening. :-)

Whilst, as a 'Messianic Gentile' I hear and wholeheartedly agree with the spirit of what you are saying but I also believe that what you are saying doesn't take into account the monumental complexities of the situation.

What is a 'Messianic Gentile', who recognizes the fundamentally Jewish nature of the true faith, to do in a Gentile Church that is fundamentally hostile to the idea that the true faith is essentially Jewish in nature [this is not simply a localized dispute (involving just a single church or even a single denomination) over theological interpretation, but a major paradigm shift for the whole of Gentile Christianity]?!

When the Messiah (who is himself a Jew) declared that 'salvation is of the Jews' he did not mean that the Jewish race is the sole source of salvation since the Messiah, as Emmanuel - 'God with us', is the Divine conduit back to God (Acts.4:12).


What the Messiah meant was that God had chosen Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendents rather than any Gentile culture or ethnic grouping to be the (holy) ethnic culture through whom the Messiah (as the true and exclusive source of salvation) would come. This has not changed. The Jewish race (with it's millennia of training and conditioning in holiness) is still the cultural context for true faith. That is not to say that Gentile believers must become Jews in order to be saved but rather that God has transplanted the 'wild' olive branches (Gentile believers) into the cultivated olive tree (Israel). He has not raised up 'alternative' cultivated olive trees wholely Gentile ('Christian') in nature (Rom.9-11).


There is only ONE true olive tree that is essentially Jewish in nature and cultivation, into which we, as Gentile believers, have been grafted. Our faith becomes absolutely meaningless (not to mention false) when divorced from the Jewish culture, milieu, ethos, etc. in which that faith was originally created (we supposedly worship YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ('the Holy One of Israel') through Jesus of Nazareth who is still the Jewish Messiah). We, as Gentiles, have been incorporated as 'invited guests' into the 'commonwealth of Israel' (Eph.2:11-22) just as Ruth and Rahab were incorporated by 'the Holy One of Israel' as 'invited guests' into that same commonwealth.


The idea of the 'Christian Church', divorced from the Jewish olive tree, as being 'the true faith' (a.k.a. Replacement Theology) is a MASSIVE Satanic deception of which most Gentile believers are, sadly, utterly oblivious.


The majority of Christians wrongly believe that because the 'community of faith' has become 'top heavy' with Gentile believers they are now the 'controlling/defining factor' as to the nature, ethnicity, milieu, ethos, etc, of the one true olive tree (which is exactly what Paul foresaw and warned against (Rom.9-11)). However, the Scriptures are absolutely crystal clear that no matter how 'top heavy' with Gentiles the one true olive tree gets, its essential nature, ethnicity, milieu, ethos, etc, will always remain Jewish since no other ethnic group throughout the whole of human history has had the training and conditioning in the righteousness and holiness of YHWH that they have had (which is why they are still God's 'chosen' [personally, I prefer 'representative'] people, in spite of the fact that many of them are not true believers (but God will sort that out in his own way and in his own time (Rom.9-11)).

So, as with any electrical conduit conveying power, the conduit itself is sheathed in a covering. The ethnic race of Israel are that sheathing providing the 'contextual' covering in which the Messiah, as the Divine conduit who alone conducts absolute power, is encased.


For further study see: Words From The Scroll Of Fire by Fred Wright http://www.cfi.org.uk/shop/index.php?manufacturers_id=53 (http://www.cfi.org.uk/shop/index.php?manufacturers_id=53)


Father Forgive Us - A Christian Response To The Church's Heritage of Jewish Persecution by Fred Wright http://www.cfi.org.uk/shop/index.php?manufacturers_id=53 (http://www.cfi.org.uk/shop/index.php?manufacturers_id=53)


Jewish New Testament by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590030/qid=1047217782/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-0449173-6805437?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


Jewish New Testament Commentary by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590111/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/103-0449173-6805437?v=glance


Complete Jewish Bible by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590154/qid=1047217782/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/103-0449173-6805437?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


Restoring The Jewishness Of The Gospel by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590014/qid=1047219547/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0449173-6805437?v=glance&s=books


A Messianic Jewish Manifesto by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590022/qid=1047217843/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9802279-3256601?v=glance&s=books


Jesus The Jewish Theologian by Brad H. Young published by Hendricks Publishers http://www.hendrickson.com/html/product/30602.trade.html?category=all


Paul The Jewish Theologian by Brad H. Young published by Hendricks Publishers http://www.hendrickson.com/html/product/32486.acad.html?category=academic


and finally: Our Father Abraham - Jewish Roots Of The Christian Faith by Marvin R. Wilson http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802804233/103-6361481-6475804?v=glance&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802804233/103-6361481-6475804?v=glance&n=283155)


The Gentile Church has yet to realize this fundamental Truth but what do individual 'Messianic Gentiles' do in the meantime whilst waiting for their brethren to get the revelation?


Simonline.

[Tishri1]

The Gentile Church has yet to realize this fundamental Truth but what do individual 'Messianic Gentiles' do in the meantime whilst waiting for their brethren to get the revelation?


Simonline.pray alot!:bow:

[visionary]

:bow: pray alot!:bow: :bow: Amen

[Yovel]

It seems to me the Jews see G-d and the Torah. Christians see G-d and Jesus/Yeshua. The Messianics see G-d, Yeshua, and Torah. Am I the only one that sees this? :confused:

[visionary]

No.. you are not the only one.

[talmidim]

It seems to me the Jews see G-d and the Torah. Christians see G-d and Jesus/Yeshua. The Messianics see G-d, Yeshua, and Torah. Am I the only one that sees this? :confused:Just the only one to say it. :D

[Simonline]

It seems to me the Jews see G-d and the Torah. Christians see G-d and Jesus/Yeshua. The Messianics see G-d, Yeshua, and Torah. Am I the only one that sees this? :confused:

Excuse me, some of us goyim recognize the significance of Torah (not all of us buy the Church's heresy of 'Law' or 'Grace', some of us know the truth of 'Law' and 'Grace') and are still trying to work out how to relate to it as goyim?! We recognise that it is impossible to be conformed to the image of the Messiah without reference to the Torah, since the Torah itself is the revelation of the Nature of G-d to which we are supposed to be conforming. However, we also heed Paul's admonition that it is not necessary to become Jews in order to be declared righteous before G-d (as was our father Abraham...a goy).

Any advice?

Simonline.

[jgonz]

Simonline~ You asked for advice.... ;)

The vine is Jewish. When we are adopted in/grafted into the vine, the sap that runs through our branches/veins now is Jewish... which means we're going to start taking on some attributes of Judaism. It does not mean fully converting, because technically, fully converting would be denying Yeshua as Messiah. However, learning of Judaism, learning Torah, coming out from the pagan influences of the world (and unfortunately the church), transforms us into someone new. That new creature in Christ that Scripture talks about.

An adopted child doesn't turn around to his new family and say, I refuse to eat That, and I refuse to wear That, and I Refuse to change my name, and I will Not learn of your family tree, and forget learning about your culture and heritage... An adopted child eats what the family eats, wears what the family wears, takes on the family name, learns the family tree, culture, and their heritage... This is what we, as Gentiles originally, do now as Believers in Messiah. We take on the attributes of our new family.

This is what G-d said also~ that sojourners are to follow the same Torah as the Israelites were to follow. There is no separation or wall or different rules for Gentile Believers than Jewish Believers. There isn't Supposed to be anyway...

[Tishri1]

It seems to me the Jews see G-d and the Torah. Christians see G-d and Jesus/Yeshua. The Messianics see G-d, Yeshua, and Torah. Am I the only one that sees this? :confused:that's it in a nutshell:clap:

[Tishri1]

Excuse me, some of us goyim recognize the significance of Torah (not all of us buy the Church's heresy of 'Law' or 'Grace', some of us know the truth of 'Law' and 'Grace') and are still trying to work out how to relate to it as goyim?! We recognise that it is impossible to be conformed to the image of the Messiah without reference to the Torah, since the Torah itself is the revelation of the Nature of G-d to which we are supposed to be conforming. However, we also heed Paul's admonition that it is not necessary to become Jews in order to be declared righteous before G-d (as was our father Abraham...a goy).

Any advice?

Simonline.I don't think Paul ment it's not nessassary to follow Torah though which is where I had it mixed up...I always got Torah Observance and Being Jewish lumped together, when they shouldn't be....Being Jewish for a gentile means Conversion period. You are either born a Jew, or converted to Judiasm, there is no "grace" area in Judiasm...but in Yeshua we are one (whether they like it or not, and they dont! At least not right now...) In Yeshua there is no converting because He says we are all the same...that is what Paul's beef is all about...

now we are all the same(one new man) for what purpose....to follow Torah the way the Jews have done all these years....in other words to appear to be Jewish(at least it looks that way to the world, the Jews still laugh at us sometimes because we could never jump through all the hoops they do, and I don't think it is scriptural to do everything they do anyway...), to look Jewish on the outside does not make you Jewish on the inside though, only conversion to Judiasm can do that(a man made custom by the way so I wouldn't go that route)....So what may look Jewish can never be....what the world is really seeing is a Torah Observant "Person" not a Jew....the label is put on the outside, the truth resides on the inside:wave:

[Simonline]

Simonline~ You asked for advice.... ;)

The vine is Jewish. When we are adopted in/grafted into the vine, the sap that runs through our branches/veins now is Jewish... which means we're going to start taking on some attributes of Judaism. It does not mean fully converting, because technically, fully converting would be denying Yeshua as Messiah. However, learning of Judaism, learning Torah, coming out from the pagan influences of the world (and unfortunately the church), transforms us into someone new. That new creature in Christ that Scripture talks about.

An adopted child doesn't turn around to his new family and say, I refuse to eat That, and I refuse to wear That, and I Refuse to change my name, and I will Not learn of your family tree, and forget learning about your culture and heritage... An adopted child eats what the family eats, wears what the family wears, takes on the family name, learns the family tree, culture, and their heritage... This is what we, as Gentiles originally, do now as Believers in Messiah. We take on the attributes of our new family.

This is what G-d said also~ that sojourners are to follow the same Torah as the Israelites were to follow. There is no separation or wall or different rules for Gentile Believers than Jewish Believers. There isn't Supposed to be anyway...

Thanks for the advice but I'm not convinced that you're absolutely correct in all that you say. Firstly, Paul teaches us Gentiles that converting to Judaism doesn't bring us any closer to God than what we were when we lived by faith as Gentiles. He certainly doesn't teach that converting to Judaism means renouncing our faith in Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, since the nascent Church was exclusively Jewish in ethos. Paul teaches us that what is important is not whether we're Jew or Gentile by religion or culture but that no matter what our herritage, we are living by faith in God and in his Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

Paul teaches that Gentiles may take onboard as much or as little of the Jewish culture as their consciences allow or dictate as long as the basis of their observance of that culture is faith and not legalism. But as Gentiles we must understand that being 'Jewish' does not make us 'more saved' than being Gentile, if we are living by faith in the Truth, even in whatever cultural context we belong. The idea of all true believers having to live as if they are Jews is a form of cultural imperialism and as such is just as wrong as Islam insisting that all muslims must live in accordance with 7th century Arabic culture.

Gentiles do not stop being Gentiles when they become believers in the One True God any more than Israelites stop being Jewish and become 'Christians' when they believe in Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by grace through culture.

I am therefore still seeking to work out how to relate to the Scriptures and Messianic Jewish culture as a canon by which to live but not in such a way that the Messianic Jewish culture overwhelms my own culture and personal identity as a Gentile, since, even as a Gentile, I am sanctified by God because of my faith.

See: A Messianic Jewish Manifesto by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590022/qid=1047217843/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9802279-3256601?v=glance&s=books

Simonline.

[Simonline]

I don't think Paul ment it's not nessassary to follow Torah though which is where I had it mixed up...I always got Torah Observance and Being Jewish lumped together, when they shouldn't be....Being Jewish for a gentile means Conversion period. You are either born a Jew, or converted to Judiasm, there is no "grace" area in Judiasm...but in Yeshua we are one (whether they like it or not, and they dont! At least not right now...) In Yeshua there is no converting because He says we are all the same...that is what Paul's beef is all about...

now we are all the same(one new man) for what purpose....to follow Torah the way the Jews have done all these years....in other words to appear to be Jewish(at least it looks that way to the world, the Jews still laugh at us sometimes because we could never jump through all the hoops they do, and I don't think it is scriptural to do everything they do anyway...), to look Jewish on the outside does not make you Jewish on the inside though, only conversion to Judiasm can do that(a man made custom by the way so I wouldn't go that route)....So what may look Jewish can never be....what the world is really seeing is a Torah Observant "Person" not a Jew....the label is put on the outside, the truth resides on the inside:wave:

With respect, I disagree. What you are advocating is Jewish cultural imperialism and this is contrary to the whole ethos of Judeo-Christianity. Whilst I agree that believing Gentiles need to live in accordance with Torah if we ever hope to be conformed to the image of the Messiah, that does not mean that we also need to take onboard all the Jewish cultural baggage as well. There must be some way that we can, by faith, live in accordance with Torah whilst at the same time remaining cultural 'God-fearing' Gentiles. Exactly how is what I am seeking to work out.

See: A Messianic Jewish Manifesto by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590022/qid=1047217843/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9802279-3256601?v=glance&s=books

Simonline.

[Yovel]

Whilst I agree that believing Gentiles need to live in accordance with Torah if we ever hope to be conformed to the image of the Messiah, that does not mean that we also need to take onboard all the Jewish cultural baggage as well.Simonline what do you consider to be Jewish cultural baggage?

[Simonline]

Simonline what do you consider to be Jewish cultural baggage?

If I knew the answer to that then I would also know how far we Gentiles need to go in our observance of Torah. In truth I am still feeling my way in this area and learning as I go along. I am also mindful of the effects of many bygone Christian missionaries from England who, whilst spreading the gospel to far off lands, failed to distinguish between the Christian gospel and Christian culture and therefore in seeking to 'Christianize' the 'heathen' nations also unwittingly sought to 'Anglicize' them as well, rather than simply allowing the heathen converts to transform their own cultures through living out the truth. Whilst it is true that only the Judeo-Christian faith is valid it is not true that only the Judeo-Christian culture is valid and we need to develop ways of communicating the truth cross-culturally (especially between Jews and Gentiles).

I believe that Gentiles do not need to observe the religious and cultural norms of Judaism to the degree that natural Jews do since there are things incumbent upon those included within the old covenant which are not incumbent upon those who are only included within the new covenant, for example, Jewish males (even within Brit Hadashah) still need to be circumcized as an everlasting sign to us Gentiles of the fact that righteousness comes through faith. This is not incumbent upon us Gentiles (even as believers). The Messiah taught us that it is not what goes into us that makes us ritually unclean but what comes out of us and on that basis nothing we eat will make us unclean, but I believe it is as equally wrong to forbid a believing Gentile from eating a bacon sandwich as it is to try and force a Jew (Messianic or normative) to eat one. Each should do only as his conscience dictates and should not judge his brother in the Messiah if that brother takes a different course. Let it always be according to our faith (Rom.14).

It is as wrong for Israel to actively encourage the Judaization of believing Gentiles as it is for Christians to actively encourage the Christianization of believing (or even normative) Jews. If believing Gentiles wish, of their own free will, to actively participate in Jewish religious and or cultural observances then this should not be opposed, providing it is made clear that it must be on the basis of faith and not legalism. Vice versa if Jews wish, of their own free will, to participate in Christian religious and or cultural observances then this also should not be opposed providing it is also made clear that this must be done on the basis of faith and not legalism. In each situation the person should be lovingly accepted and supported in their choice whilst being advised that if they are living by faith then changing cultures and religious observances won't necessarily make them any more righteous or bring them any closer to God.

See: A Messianic Jewish Manifesto by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590022/qid=1047217843/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9802279-3256601?v=glance&s=books

Simonline.

[visionary]

Torah Observant "Person" not a Jew....the label is put on the outside, the truth resides on the insideTo a gentile that is "jewish" to the jew is not funny.

[Yovel]

Simonline,

Do you feel doing the Feasts of the L-rd and eating kosher is baggage? Just trying to get a feel as to what your thoughts are on how far a Gentile should go if they are going be Messianic.

[jgonz]

The Messiah taught us that it is not what goes into us that makes us ritually unclean but what comes out of us and on that basis nothing we eat will make us unclean, but I believe it is as equally wrong to forbid a believing Gentile from eating a bacon sandwich as it is to try and force a Jew (Messianic or normative) to eat one. Each should do only as his conscience dictates and should not judge his brother in the Messiah if that brother takes a different course. Let it always be according to our faith (Rom.14).

Simonline, I disagree with you here. Romans 14 is talking about CLEAN food (as listed in Leviticus) but since it's been sacrificed to an idol that makes it unclean. Whenever food is talked about Anywhere in the Bible, it's Clean meat. Unclean meats aren't ever considered food.

Messiah was Jewish. He followed G-d's Torah, which included eating ONLY clean meats. He would Never have told us we could eat unclean meat just because we were Gentiles or because we were Believers. Why would G-d "change His mind" about what is food or not?

[visionary]

Simonline, I disagree with you here. Romans 14 is talking about CLEAN food (as listed in Leviticus) but since it's been sacrificed to an idol that makes it unclean. Whenever food is talked about Anywhere in the Bible, it's Clean meat. Unclean meats aren't ever considered food.

Messiah was Jewish. He followed G-d's Torah, which included eating ONLY clean meats. He would Never have told us we could eat unclean meat just because we were Gentiles or because we were Believers. Why would G-d "change His mind" about what is food or not?Amen... Mesisiah is Jewish and so must we. We need to shake off the 2000 years of roman, babylonian, greek, persian (to name a few) influences on the truth as it was set forth on Mount Sinai, and given as a walking talking breathing example in Yeshua. There is cultural aspect in every believer's life that the Holy Spiirt works to root out because of the origin of the seed in us. Here we are six thousand years later with a huge mixed bag to sort through. Just name and identifying it all has become a hopeless task. It is only the truth as it is found in Yeshua that we will be able to let go of the nonsense, and cling to that which will last throughout eternity.

[jgonz]

Firstly, Paul teaches us Gentiles that converting to Judaism doesn't bring us any closer to God than what we were when we lived by faith as Gentiles.
I agree.



He certainly doesn't teach that converting to Judaism means renouncing our faith in Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, since the nascent Church was exclusively Jewish in ethos.
I know Paul doesn't teach that, but Judaism today does.

Paul teaches us that what is important is not whether we're Jew or Gentile by religion or culture but that no matter what our herritage, we are living by faith in God and in his Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

I completely agree. We are a new creature in Christ. However, the point I was making was that since we're grafted in/adopted into the Vine, we will just naturally start taking on some Jewish "flavor".... not to try to "be" Jewish but because He is Jewish.

[Simonline]

Simonline,

Do you feel doing the Feasts of the L-rd and eating kosher is baggage? Just trying to get a feel as to what your thoughts are on how far a Gentile should go if they are going be Messianic.

I'm still trying to get a feel for how far, as Gentiles, we need to observe Torah and what would constitute 'going the extra (optional) mile'? As yet, I am still groping around in the mist but I am not so blind as to believe that I don't need Torah at all.

I think participating in the feasts might be advisable for us as believing Gentiles but keeping kosher (other than when in the company of those Jews who do) could be 'going the extra (optional) mile'? I'd appreciate a steer on this from more enlightened and spiritually discerning Messianic Jewish leadership....am awaiting a good book on the subject along the lines of Stern's A Messianic Jewish Manifesto.

Simonline.

[jgonz]

I think participating in the feasts might be advisable for us as believing Gentiles but keeping kosher (other than when in the company of those Jews who do) could be 'going the extra (optional) mile'?

Each of the Feasts is a perfect picture of Messiah, and is a Fabulous way to see Him and His purpose. Keeping Biblically kosher is just part of being a Believer... We've been lied to by the church for 2000 years~ Yeshua did NOT come to "free" us from Torah's instructions. He came to redeem us, and set us free from sin. Following Torah is to teach us how to live holy... to become a set apart, pecular people, a light to the nations.

A good book on eating Biblically kosher is Holy Cow! by Hope Egan. You can find it here: http://holycownews.com/

[Yovel]

Simonline, I disagree with you here. Romans 14 is talking about CLEAN food (as listed in Leviticus) but since it's been sacrificed to an idol that makes it unclean. Whenever food is talked about Anywhere in the Bible, it's Clean meat. Unclean meats aren't ever considered food.

Messiah was Jewish. He followed G-d's Torah, which included eating ONLY clean meats. He would Never have told us we could eat unclean meat just because we were Gentiles or because we were Believers. Why would G-d "change His mind" about what is food or not?
Amen :thumbsup:

[Yovel]

Amen... Mesisiah is Jewish and so must we. We need to shake off the 2000 years of roman, babylonian, greek, persian (to name a few) influences on the truth as it was set forth on Mount Sinai, and given as a walking talking breathing example in Yeshua. There is cultural aspect in every believer's life that the Holy Spiirt works to root out because of the origin of the seed in us. Here we are six thousand years later with a huge mixed bag to sort through. Just name and identifying it all has become a hopeless task. It is only the truth as it is found in Yeshua that we will be able to let go of the nonsense, and cling to that which will last throughout eternity.
Agreed

[jgonz]

Amen... Mesisiah is Jewish and so must we. We need to shake off the 2000 years of roman, babylonian, greek, persian (to name a few) influences on the truth as it was set forth on Mount Sinai, and given as a walking talking breathing example in Yeshua. There is cultural aspect in every believer's life that the Holy Spiirt works to root out because of the origin of the seed in us. Here we are six thousand years later with a huge mixed bag to sort through. Just name and identifying it all has become a hopeless task. It is only the truth as it is found in Yeshua that we will be able to let go of the nonsense, and cling to that which will last throughout eternity.

So very true. :amen:

[Simonline]

Simonline, I disagree with you here. Romans 14 is talking about CLEAN food (as listed in Leviticus) but since it's been sacrificed to an idol that makes it unclean. Whenever food is talked about Anywhere in the Bible, it's Clean meat. Unclean meats aren't ever considered food.

With respect, no it isn't. Rom.14 is speaking about living by faith and not condeming others whose faith allows them to act differently. The important point is not that all actions on the part of believers are uniform but that they are all done in love on the basis of faith. The passage is not talking about either clean or unclean meats in any absolute sense "I know - that is, I have been persuaded by the Lord Yeshua the Messiah - that nothing is unclean in and of itself. But if a person considers something to be unclean then for that person it is unclean;" (v.14) but only in a relative sense (relative to the strength of faith of the individual). Paul is here taking his lead from the Messiah's ruling concerning what makes a person ritually unclean (Matt.15:10-20). It is not the fact that the food has been offered to an idol that makes it unclean (since the food can be resanctified through prayer and faith) but the weak faith of the weaker brother that makes the food 'unclean', in which case, for the sake of the weaker brother, all the believers should, in love, consider the food unclean and abstain for as long as the brother considers it to be 'unclean'.

Was the 'food' in Peter's vision that he had whilst on the roof of the home of Simon the tanner in Joppa (Acts.10:9-16) clean?

Messiah was Jewish. He followed G-d's Torah, which included eating ONLY clean meats. He would Never have told us we could eat unclean meat just because we were Gentiles or because we were Believers. Why would G-d "change His mind" about what is food or not?

Then why isn't Kashrut included in the admonition to Gentile believers sent out from the Church in Jerusalem with the full blessing of the Ruach Ha Kodesh who, being the Spirt of G-d, is also the Spirit of the Son (i.e. the Messiah) (Acts.15:28-29)?

Be careful what you bind and loose, it might come back to haunt you.

Simonline.

[Simonline]

Amen... Mesisiah is Jewish and so must we. We need to shake off the 2000 years of roman, babylonian, greek, persian (to name a few) influences on the truth as it was set forth on Mount Sinai, and given as a walking talking breathing example in Yeshua. There is cultural aspect in every believer's life that the Holy Spiirt works to root out because of the origin of the seed in us. Here we are six thousand years later with a huge mixed bag to sort through. Just name and identifying it all has become a hopeless task. It is only the truth as it is found in Yeshua that we will be able to let go of the nonsense, and cling to that which will last throughout eternity.

No, I disagree. It is not true that only Jewish life and culture is sanctified. Any life that is lived through faith in G-d and his Messiah is sanctified. Gentile life is not inferior to Jewish life since all life has been created by God and is sanctified through living faith. As Gentiles, we need to work out to what degree we need to interact with the Jewish faith and culture in order that our faith in the Jewish God might be valid but that does not mean that we must forsake all that we are as Gentiles in order to be 'saved' since not everything about Gentile life is sinful. We are required to be sanctified Gentiles, not 'pseudo-Jews'.

Simonline.

[visionary]

No, I disagree. It is not true that only Jewish life and culture is sanctified. Any life that is lived through faith in G-d and his Messiah is sanctified. Gentile life is not inferior to Jewish life since all life has been created by God and is sanctified through living faith. As Gentiles, we need to work out to what degree we need to interact with the Jewish faith and culture in order that our faith in the Jewish God might be valid but that does not mean that we must forsake all that we are as Gentiles in order to be 'saved' since not everything about Gentile life is sinful. We are required to be sanctified Gentiles, not 'pseudo-Jews'.

Simonline.I agree with you. I am not advocating that we copy the Jews of today. We need to interact with the Jewish faith and not necessarily the culture, unless you have chosen to. I agree not everything about Gentile life is sinful. This is the problem of sorting through the culture and the faith of the matter, it is such a mixed bag, that many see culture that which is faith, and faith that which culture on both sides of the fence.

[Simonline]

Each of the Feasts is a perfect picture of Messiah, and is a Fabulous way to see Him and His purpose. Keeping Biblically kosher is just part of being a Believer... We've been lied to by the church for 2000 years~ Yeshua did NOT come to "free" us from Torah's instructions. He came to redeem us, and set us free from sin. Following Torah is to teach us how to live holy... to become a set apart, pecular people, a light to the nations.

A good book on eating Biblically kosher is Holy Cow! by Hope Egan. You can find it here: http://holycownews.com/

Keeping Kashrut is an obligation for Jews, not Gentiles, since it doesn't appear in the admonition of Acts.15:28-29. The Messiah did not come to legalistically bind us as Gentiles to Torah either. It is Israel's role to be a light to the Gentiles not for Israel and the Gentiles to become one in the sense of being indistinguishable from each other.

Simonline.

[Simonline]

I agree with you. I am not advocating that we copy the Jews of today. We need to interact with the Jewish faith and not necessarily the culture, unless you have chosen to. I agree not everything about Gentile life is sinful. This is the problem of sorting through the culture and the faith of the matter, it is such a mixed bag, that many see culture that which is faith, and faith that which culture on both sides of the fence.

On this basis we can work together...:)

Simonline.

[jgonz]

Simonline~ Read ALL of Acts 15. You're taking 2 verses out of context.

[jgonz]

Was the 'food' in Peter's vision that he had whilst on the roof of the home of Simon the tanner in Joppa (Acts.10:9-16) clean?

No, the animals on the sheet were all unclean. However, if you Continue reading, Peter gets the revelation of what his vision Meant in verse 28. G-d was showing him that Gentiles were not to be considered unclean (which was the Rabbinical view of Gentiles).

[jgonz]

Be careful what you bind and loose, it might come back to haunt you.

What is this supposed to mean? :scratch:

[Tishri1]

Thanks for the advice but I'm not convinced that you're absolutely correct in all that you say. Firstly, Paul teaches us Gentiles that converting to Judaism doesn't bring us any closer to God than what we were when we lived by faith as Gentiles. He certainly doesn't teach that converting to Judaism means renouncing our faith in Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, since the nascent Church was exclusively Jewish in ethos. Paul teaches us that what is important is not whether we're Jew or Gentile by religion or culture but that no matter what our herritage, we are living by faith in God and in his Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

Paul teaches that Gentiles may take onboard as much or as little of the Jewish culture as their consciences allow or dictate as long as the basis of their observance of that culture is faith and not legalism. But as Gentiles we must understand that being 'Jewish' does not make us 'more saved' than being Gentile, if we are living by faith in the Truth, even in whatever cultural context we belong. The idea of all true believers having to live as if they are Jews is a form of cultural imperialism and as such is just as wrong as Islam insisting that all muslims must live in accordance with 7th century Arabic culture.

Gentiles do not stop being Gentiles when they become believers in the One True God any more than Israelites stop being Jewish and become 'Christians' when they believe in Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by grace through culture.

I am therefore still seeking to work out how to relate to the Scriptures and Messianic Jewish culture as a canon by which to live but not in such a way that the Messianic Jewish culture overwhelms my own culture and personal identity as a Gentile, since, even as a Gentile, I am sanctified by God because of my faith.

See: A Messianic Jewish Manifesto by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590022/qid=1047217843/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9802279-3256601?v=glance&s=books

Simonline. believe you are preaching to the choir here Simon but am glad that you are:hug:.....what Christians don't seem to realize is that right now(although that could change slightly and even add more flavor ) the Messianic Movement looks more Jewish than not, and most prefer it that way...BUT no one is saying it is legalistically Jewish meaning no one is saying that it cannot be more christian, it's just that the majority have a desire to follow Yeshua's culture for good reason...he is the Messiah AND there is a richness to the Word and Walk of this Messianic Movement in that ALL the Hebraic Though that was stripped away from the NT is being restored.....no one is saying this is the only way to walk out your life ....it's just the best fit for us......I still go to the church myself;) I never tell anyone to follow me or go to hell...I've never heared any Messianic say that....I've never heared any Jew say that......:wave:

[Tishri1]

With respect, I disagree. What you are advocating is Jewish cultural imperialism and this is contrary to the whole ethos of Judeo-Christianity. Whilst I agree that believing Gentiles need to live in accordance with Torah if we ever hope to be conformed to the image of the Messiah, that does not mean that we also need to take onboard all the Jewish cultural baggage as well. There must be some way that we can, by faith, live in accordance with Torah whilst at the same time remaining cultural 'God-fearing' Gentiles. Exactly how is what I am seeking to work out.

See: A Messianic Jewish Manifesto by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590022/qid=1047217843/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9802279-3256601?v=glance&s=books

Simonline.Simon, I have been doing this for 9 years and there definately is a jewish LOOK to being Torah Observant....now I agree that for the Churches sake it would be great to be able to keep our Christian look and adopt the same Torah Observance that Yeshua Kept but practically speaking I have not seen this done ...yet...It is a hard road to follow as on the one hand the Jews cant stand us "wannnabees" and the Church thinks we are back slidders or in a cult for trying to follow the Law...it's no fun to be judged constantly or seen as such a pecular group of people:sigh:...let me know if you ever see it work the way you want it too, cuz my DH would love to go to a Christian looking Torah Observant Church!(And I would be happy too about that)

[Tishri1]

If I knew the answer to that then I would also know how far we Gentiles need to go in our observance of Torah. In truth I am still feeling my way in this area and learning as I go along. I am also mindful of the effects of many bygone Christian missionaries from England who, whilst spreading the gospel to far off lands, failed to distinguish between the Christian gospel and Christian culture and therefore in seeking to 'Christianize' the 'heathen' nations also unwittingly sought to 'Anglicize' them as well, rather than simply allowing the heathen converts to transform their own cultures through living out the truth. Whilst it is true that only the Judeo-Christian faith is valid it is not true that only the Judeo-Christian culture is valid and we need to develop ways of communicating the truth cross-culturally (especially between Jews and Gentiles).

I believe that Gentiles do not need to observe the religious and cultural norms of Judaism to the degree that natural Jews do since there are things incumbent upon those included within the old covenant which are not incumbent upon those who are only included within the new covenant, for example, Jewish males (even within Brit Hadashah) still need to be circumcized as an everlasting sign to us Gentiles of the fact that righteousness comes through faith. This is not incumbent upon us Gentiles (even as believers). The Messiah taught us that it is not what goes into us that makes us ritually unclean but what comes out of us and on that basis nothing we eat will make us unclean, but I believe it is as equally wrong to forbid a believing Gentile from eating a bacon sandwich as it is to try and force a Jew (Messianic or normative) to eat one. Each should do only as his conscience dictates and should not judge his brother in the Messiah if that brother takes a different course. Let it always be according to our faith (Rom.14).

It is as wrong for Israel to actively encourage the Judaization of believing Gentiles as it is for Christians to actively encourage the Christianization of believing (or even normative) Jews. If believing Gentiles wish, of their own free will, to actively participate in Jewish religious and or cultural observances then this should not be opposed, providing it is made clear that it must be on the basis of faith and not legalism. Vice versa if Jews wish, of their own free will, to participate in Christian religious and or cultural observances then this also should not be opposed providing it is also made clear that this must be done on the basis of faith and not legalism. In each situation the person should be lovingly accepted and supported in their choice whilst being advised that if they are living by faith then changing cultures and religious observances won't necessarily make them any more righteous or bring them any closer to God.

See: A Messianic Jewish Manifesto by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590022/qid=1047217843/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9802279-3256601?v=glance&s=books

Simonline.why do Christians always get this image of us when we actively preach against legalism our selves, and we overstress that salvation is a free gift of grace:scratch:yet we always seem to see people accusing us of leagalism and salvation by works regardless of how loudly we preach against it. hmmmmm:scratch: it gets sooo tiring sometimes

seriously we just want to live as Yeshua lived on this earth:groupray:

[Tishri1]

To a gentile that is "jewish" to the jew is not funny.yeh we don't look Jewish at all really...if you ask a Jew they will say, oh those Messianics are Christians with a Kippah on, they are nothing like us.....yet to the Christian we look very Jewish keeping Kosher, and selebrating the Sabbath and the Festivals...

If you ask any one out side of us why we do these things they will say"The Messianics do this to be more Jewish" but that is not true

we do things that appear Jewish because 1. The are the things required in the Torah and 2. Yeshua did them

we are not trying to be more Jewish...we are trying to be more Jesus!:clap:

[Tishri1]

I'm still trying to get a feel for how far, as Gentiles, we need to observe Torah and what would constitute 'going the extra (optional) mile'? As yet, I am still groping around in the mist but I am not so blind as to believe that I don't need Torah at all.

I think participating in the feasts might be advisable for us as believing Gentiles but keeping kosher (other than when in the company of those Jews who do) could be 'going the extra (optional) mile'? I'd appreciate a steer on this from more enlightened and spiritually discerning Messianic Jewish leadership....am awaiting a good book on the subject along the lines of Stern's A Messianic Jewish Manifesto.

Simonline.how bout Holy Cow by FFOZ

http://www.ffoz.org/

Does God Care about What We Eat?
By Hope Egan Join messiah magazine editor and best-selling author Hope Egan on her personal journey through what the Bible says about eating meat.

Hope helps you see how science and Scripture brilliantly intertwine. Promoting neither legalism nor vegetarianism, Holy Cow! gently challenges you to take a fresh look at how you live out your faith!

http://holycownews.com/_images/hegan.png Watch Hope Egan's May 17, 2005 appearance on www.Harvest-TV.com. (http://www.harvest-tv.com/)
Select Format
http://holycownews.com/_images/_Arrow.gif128K Windows Media
(http://holycownews.com/index_v128_w.shtml)
PLUS: Man Alive! There’s More!

Written by FFOZ Educational Director and Bible teacher D. Thomas Lancaster, Man Alive! delves further into some of the most challenging Scripture passages mentioned in the main part of this book. Fasten your seatbelts and get out your Bibles; this may be the richest Scripture study you have ever experienced.

[Wags]

With respect, no it isn't. Rom.14 is speaking about living by faith and not condeming others whose faith allows them to act differently. The important point is not that all actions on the part of believers are uniform but that they are all done in love on the basis of faith. The passage is not talking about either clean or unclean meats in any absolute sense "I know - that is, I have been persuaded by the Lord Yeshua the Messiah - that nothing is unclean in and of itself. But if a person considers something to be unclean then for that person it is unclean;" (v.14) but only in a relative sense (relative to the strength of faith of the individual). Paul is here taking his lead from the Messiah's ruling concerning what makes a person ritually unclean (Matt.15:10-20). It is not the fact that the food has been offered to an idol that makes it unclean (since the food can be resanctified through prayer and faith) but the weak faith of the weaker brother that makes the food 'unclean', in which case, for the sake of the weaker brother, all the believers should, in love, consider the food unclean and abstain for as long as the brother considers it to be 'unclean'.

Was the 'food' in Peter's vision that he had whilst on the roof of the home of Simon the tanner in Joppa (Acts.10:9-16) clean?



Then why isn't Kashrut included in the admonition to Gentile believers sent out from the Church in Jerusalem with the full blessing of the Ruach Ha Kodesh who, being the Spirt of G-d, is also the Spirit of the Son (i.e. the Messiah) (Acts.15:28-29)?

Be careful what you bind and loose, it might come back to haunt you.

Simonline.

Typical christian misinterpretation of scripture!

Adonai gave his divine instructions (Torah) for all believers - regardless of their ethnicity.

Isaiah 56


Here is what ADONAI says: "Observe justice, do what is right, for my salvation is close to coming, my righteousness to being revealed." 2 Happy is the person who does this, anyone who grasps it firmly, who keeps Shabbat and does not profane it, and keeps himself from doing any evil. 3 A foreigner joining ADONAI should not say, "ADONAI will separate me from his people"; likewise the eunuch should not say, "I am only a dried-up tree." 4 For here is what ADONAI says: "As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant: 5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples."


The only thing "optional" for any believer is those customs that are NOT found in scripture. So keeping rabinical kosher is optional, keeping biblical kosher is not.

[Yovel]

Here is what ADONAI says: "Observe justice, do what is right, for my salvation is close to coming, my righteousness to being revealed." 2 Happy is the person who does this, anyone who grasps it firmly, who keeps Shabbat and does not profane it, and keeps himself from doing any evil. 3 A foreigner joining ADONAI should not say, "ADONAI will separate me from his people"; likewise the eunuch should not say, "I am only a dried-up tree." 4 For here is what ADONAI says: "As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant: 5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples."Great Scripture Wags.


Simonline, if you are going to do Torah you can't pick 1 from column A, 2 from column B. Torah is not a menu that you choose what you like and discard what you don't like. You have to go all the way and if it makes you look Jewish, what is wrong with that? Yeshua was Jewish and so were his disciples. Torah is a guide to show us how to have relationship with Adonai and what is acceptable to Him.

[Mary_Magdalene]

why do Christians always get this image of us when we actively preach against legalism our selves, and we overstress that salvation is a free gift of grace:scratch:yet we always seem to see people accusing us of leagalism and salvation by works regardless of how loudly we preach against it. hmmmmm:scratch: it gets sooo tiring sometimes

seriously we just want to live as Yeshua lived on this earth:groupray:


as a weekly attender of church (i wont name it-but the largest denomination in america), i can say that it is because our flesh still wants to live and rebells against being obedient to Christ. and anyone who will give scriptural support to the convictions that the Holy Spirit has been placing on our hearts is most uncomfortable...

when we get saved, i think we think it is an easy, free ride. when someone shows us that G-d still wants obedience, it can be shocking..

[Tishri1]

Great Scripture Wags.


Simonline, if you are going to do Torah you can't pick 1 from column A, 2 from column B. Torah is not a menu that you choose what you like and discard what you don't like. You have to go all the way and if it makes you look Jewish, what is wrong with that? Yeshua was Jewish and so were his disciples. Torah is a guide to show us how to have relationship with Adonai and what is acceptable to Him.Yes indeed this is true, but with the understanding that your desire to follow after ABBA 's way is the first step, and no one does this Torah Walk with perfection so don't look at it as an impossibility before you even try, it's not that hard once you get into it a GREAT book the BEST one I have seen on the subject of should a christian do this and how is my D.Lancaster "Restoration"

Restoration
Returning the Torah of God to the Disciples of Jesus By D. Thomas Lancaster

This is the book you have been waiting for. Lancaster has written a powerful new introduction to Torah in which he graciously presents the Torah and its message in simple and easy to understand terms.

Restoration will assist thousands of believers to make the transition to Torah and discipleship in Yeshua. Those who are already on the path will find this book helpful in verbalizing their convictions. More than that, they will find it to be a compelling tool in presenting the message of Torah to friends and family.

Torah is for Christians! Jumpstart your Christian Friends’ Exploration of God’s Law!

Biblical Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism that believed in Jesus and revered the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) as the core of her Scriptures. Restoration is a riveting argument for a return to that original, biblical expression of faith in Jesus.


Discover for yourself the profound beauty of Torah life, the celebration of the biblical Sabbath and the appreciation of God’s Holy Feast Days. Your eyes will be opened to another dimension of the faith that is beginning to re-emerge among Christians worldwide.


Lancaster answers common theological objections to the Torah, while demonstrating that Christians are already keeping more of God’s Law than they realize. This thought provoking, theological boat-rocker is a fun-to-read, inspiring journey into the world of the Bible.

[jgonz]

I just got my copy of Restoration and can't wait to read it! It looks really good... :)

[stone]

Be careful what you bind and loose, it might come back to haunt you.

Simonline.

:scratch: what's unclean spirits have to do with this?

Are your questions sincere?

[plum]

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