Is John 17:3 true?

[edpobre]

Friends,

In John 17:3, we hear Jesus saying, "And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ whom YOU have SENT", indicating that someone else other than him is the ONLY TRUE God. That someone is identified as the Father in verse 1.

But we hear a lot of pastors and evangelists (all Bible scholars with Masters of Theology tucked under their belt) tell us that Jesus is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the Father, which is directly opposed to what Jesus said.

Is there a Biblical explanation (other than personal interpretation, assumption, opinion or conclusion) to this seeming discrepancy in doctrine?

Is John 17:3 really true?

Ed

[Josephus]

there is:

if Zechariah 12:10 is true as well:

"They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."

Notice it's all one sentence. The pronouns change! Two different perspectives, but the same event - through one witnesses eyes! How can a person have two perspectives at once unless of course they were God?

If this is indeed God, and if he can switch from a first person view to a third person view in the same sentence there in Zechariah, then it shouldn't be surprising or confusing when Jesus says something similar which places himself as the one being sent and the one sending. Jesus can just as easily be declaring himself God in the very verse you quote because there were no commas in ancient Greek:

"that they may know you the only true God and the one whom you have sent." When we read it like this, we have to make a decision as to what we will believe.

[Josephus]

If Jesus is not God, does this mean then that a mere man loves me more than God ever can?

To be honest, I would not want my salvation based on the reality that my God has no clue what my salvation is about from my perspective. God isn't me! Only a man can experience suffering the way we do, only a man can experience death the way we all will. I for one can ONLY believe that God truly is a God of love if He himself has been unloved, rejected, and knows what it's like to be murdered because of it. To me, if God really loves me, he will have done all this because to me, that proves He truly is humble and loves me as my best friend. If God is not the most humblest being in the universe, then something else is, and therefore it will be exalted more. If God did NOT die for me, then God can not be the one who loves me the most because "no greater love is this: that a man lay down his life for his friends." Are you saying that Jesus, if he was a mere man, has greater love for me than God?

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: if Zechariah 12:10 is true as well:

"They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."

Notice it's all one sentence. The pronouns change! Two different perspectives, but the same event - through one witnesses eyes! How can a person have two perspectives at once unless of course they were God?

You are quoting Zechariah 12:10 from the New International Version (NIV) and the King James Version (KJV) Bibles.

Let me quote to you the same verse using three other versions of the Bible:

Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition):mad: "...when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall moutrn him, as one mourns an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."

Today's English Version (TEV):mad: "...They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death, and they will moun for him like those who mourn for an only child. They will mourn bitterly, like those who have lost their firstborn son."

The Living Bible (TLB):mad: "...they will look on him they pierced, and mourn for him as for an only son, and gfrieve bitterly for him as for an oldest child who died."

These versions are more accurate translation of the verse because as apostle Paul writes in 1 Tim. 1:17, God is immortal and cannot die.

Ed

[ZoneChaos]

That someone is identified as the Father in verse 1.

This answers your own question: He is referring to the "Father" a person of the Trinity, and not "GOd" who is the Trinity.

God IN ADDITION to the Father

Ther trinity is not: 1+1+1=3 it is more like 1x1x1=1

The three do not "Add up to God. The 3 are God.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: If Jesus is not God, does this mean then that a mere man loves me more than God ever can?

Jesus could not have loved you more than God. Remember John 3:16? It says: "...God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son...." If God did not love us so much, He would not have sent Jesus to die for our sins.

You wrote: To be honest, I would not want my salvation based on the reality that my God has no clue what my salvation is about from my perspective.

The truth is Josephus, God knows precisely what your salvation is all about from your perspective. And He knows it's wrong that's why He tells us that He "....desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved" (1 Tim. 2

In Rom. 10:1-3 He says through apostle Paul: "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousnesss of God."

What you should be concerned about my friend is what your salvation is all about from God's perspective, not yours.

You wrote: If God did NOT die for me, then God can not be the one who loves me the most because "no greater love is this: that a man lay down his life for his friends." Are you saying that Jesus, if he was a mere man, has greater love for me than God?

First, God cannot die because he is immortal (1 Tim. 1:17). God is Spirit (John 4:24) and has no flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

Second, the verse you quoted says, " a man lays down his life for a friend." Jesus is the man who laid down his life for a friend.

Third, do you have a son my friend? Suppose he is your only son, would you allow his life to be taken for his friends who are your enemies? Don't you think that God's sacrifice for you, an enemy is worth more than Christ's sacrifice for his friends?

The Bible says that God demonstrates His own love towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Rom. 5::cool: . Again this proves that it was not God who died on the cross.

Ed

[Josephus]

Ed,

Other translations are wrong. Simply look up the hebrew pronouns and decide for yourself. Some translators get it wrong because it apparently "doesn't make sense." But unlike Hebrew writers, some modern translators ponder over the meaning of a word to it can make sense, and in the worst case - they try to make it fit their doctrine or theology, rather than take the word for what it really says.

Next, I am surprised you did not address the issue that we too are living spirits, but we die - don't we?

As to the other points you refer to:
Yes, of course Jesus can NOT love me more than God (for me, it's because I believe Jesus is God, for you, it is because God can't die). My next point then becomes: what Jesus did, God could not do - at least according to your theology. And we already have scriptural precedent from the words of Jesus himself that love is no greater than this: a friend giving his life for another. No greater? Or just a little under greater than God's love? ... or is it all the same love?

You also wrote:
"The truth is Josephus, God knows precisely what your salvation is all about from your perspective."

Yup, but God is NOT me. Your God can not possibly know what life is like down here if he's just an observer. If he can not experience life as I know it, then it is impossible for him as an observer to actually know what it's like living down here.

"What you should be concerned about my friend is what your salvation is all about from God's perspective, not yours."

I am most certainly concerned if God doesn't know what it's like to be tempted, to be hated, mocked, or murdered. How can God possibly know me and my concerns and problems and struggle and desire for freedom and love if He couldn't possibly experience what I experience?

Your final point brings you pointing out scripture:
" a man lays down his life for a friend"

I was hoping you'd pick that up. Let's read the actual scripture:

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

Skip the "a man" altogether and let's make it personal. Are we God's friends? Then let God show us greater love.


Onto the next part of our discussion:

Jesus says, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepard lays down his life for the sheep." (John 10:11)

Is God also our shepherd? He was David's.

"The Lord (YHVH) is my shepherd, I shall not be in want." (Psalm 23:1)

Something to think about.

[AngelAmidala]

Ed...just wondering why you say this

These versions are more accurate translation of the verse because as apostle Paul writes in 1 Tim. 1:17, God is immortal and cannot die.

About the RSV and TLB. I have had experience with those books, and in my opinion they seemed a bit watered down as opposed to the NJKV for example. I don't know much about the TEV though.

I was just curious why you say the RSV, TLB, and TEV are more accurate translations. :)

-AngelAmidala

[Josephus]

itching ears?

[edpobre]

Angelamidala,

I was referring to the RSV, TLB TEV versions of Zechariah 12:10. It does not mean that on the whole, these versions are more accurate than others.

Ed

[AngelAmidala]

Ah...got it.

Thanks! :)

-AngelAmidala

[edpobre]

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: This answers your own question: He is referring to the "Father" a person of the Trinity, and not "GOd" who is the Trinity.

Are you saying then that John 17:3 is false Zone? John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God. Trinity is not even mentioned in these verses.

Ed

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: Other translations are wrong. Simply look up the hebrew pronouns and decide for yourself. Some translators get it wrong because it apparently "doesn't make sense." But unlike Hebrew writers, some modern translators ponder over the meaning of a word to it can make sense, and in the worst case - they try to make it fit their doctrine or theology, rather than take the word for what it really says.

Most people like to take the word for what it really says when it fits their doctrine or re-interpret the word if it contradicts their doctrine. For example, John 1:1 is taken for "what it really says" because it fits the Trinity doctrine then re-interpret John 17:3 to make it fit the Trinity doctrine.

You wrote: Your God can not possibly know what life is like down here if he's just an observer. If he can not experience life as I know it, then it is impossible for him as an observer to actually know what it's like living down here.

You seem to forget that with God, nothing is impossible (Luke 1:37). If my God could create everything from nothing, how hard is it for Him to know what life is?.

You wrote: I am most certainly concerned if God doesn't know what it's like to be tempted, to be hated, mocked, or murdered. How can God possibly know me and my concerns and problems and struggle and desire for freedom and love if He couldn't possibly experience what I experience?

You are questioning God's power my friend.

You wrote: Your final point brings you pointing out scripture:
" a man lays down his life for a friend"

I was hoping you'd pick that up. Let's read the actual scripture:

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

Skip the "a man" altogether and let's make it personal. Are we God's friends? Then let God show us greater love.

As I sid earlier, Jesus laid down his life for friends. God sent His only begotten son to die for His enemies. Isn't that greater love?

You wrote: Onto the next part of our discussion:

Jesus says, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepard lays down his life for the sheep." (John 10:11)

Is God also our shepherd? He was David's.

"The Lord (YHVH) is my shepherd, I shall not be in want." (Psalm 23:1)

Something to think about.

What you are saying doesn't make Jesus God. God is "Lord" of the Israelites whom He led out of Egypt. Jesus is the Christians' only "Lord." (1 cor. 8:6)

Ed

[Josephus]

"Most people like to take the word for what it really says when it fits their doctrine or re-interpret the word if it contradicts their doictrine."

I couldn't agree more. :) That's why there are so many different kinds of translations. I trust only one from which they all are derived: the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek and Aramaic New Testament. Gone are the days when I will let someone else tell me what to believe. From now on I find answers on my own, and truly "test" the spirits by their fruit.


"You seem to forget that with God, nothing is impossible (Luke 1:37). If my God could create everything from nothing, how hard is it for Him to know what life is?."

This is another topic altogether which we may start if you still wonder after you are done reading this. You are wrong in stating the nothing is impossible for God. Sin is impossible for God, lying is impossible for God, not existing is impossible for God. Obviously these too are also truths, thus it must be reconciled with the scripture you quote. And it's easily reconciled when you read the scripture: nothing that God "has promised, is impossible." - and we can believe in God's promises just as sure as he can not lie, which it is impossible for Him to do.


"You are questioning God's power my friend."

I will question this doctrine of who God is because I read the bible says different. I only come with two assumptions when reading the bible. Anything above these two assumptions are simply from man. The two assumptions are:

1. That God exists.
2. That the bible is true.

Anything beyond these two introduces the wisdom of man. My bible says that what I see, God can not do certain things. He could not redeem us and maintain our free will if the concequence of eternal death for sin was paid for by the wave of a magic hand. No, an eternal God had to pay an eternal debt for us.


"As I sid earlier, Jesus laid down his life for friends. God sent His only begotten son to die for His enemies. Isn't that greater love?"

Is it greater love to send your son, or for you to die personally? If you can pay the debt without making someone else do it, but you don't and instead you let that other person do it, then to me that shows negligence on your part, and negligence definatly is a lack of greater love. But I don't see why you are questioning this when Jesus himself outlined what is the greater love: one dying for his friends. Jesus never said it was greater love for one to send their son to die for his friends. That certainly is a cheap way out. If this is true, then God didn't save me at all. Some created puppet did.


"God is "Lord" of the Israelites whom He led out of Egypt. Jesus is the Christians' only "Lord." (1 cor. 8:6)"

Jesus is an Israelite. Jesus is Lord of all, no matter if you are a Christian or not. A lord is your master. My master is Jesus. My master is God.

[drmmjr]

Is it greater love to send your son, or for you to die personally? If you can pay the debt without making someone else do it, but you don't and instead you let that other person do it, then to me that shows negligence on your part, and negligence definatly is a lack of greater love. But I don't see why you are questioning this when Jesus himself outlined what is the greater love: one dying for his friends. Jesus never said it was greater love for one to send their son to die for his friends. That certainly is a cheap way out. If this is true, then God didn't save me at all. Some created puppet did.
The reason God gave His son, was because God couldn't die. Also, since man had sinned in the Garden, man had to pay the sacrifice. If God became Jesus the man in order to pay the sacrifice, then he ceased to be God. Jesus knew he was to be the sacrifice to remove this sin. He even asked God to not cause him to have to go through with it, but only if it were God's will that he would not have to.

[Josephus]

"He even asked God to not cause him to have to go through with it, but only if it were God's will that he would not have to."

If I read my bible it says Jesus prayed to the Father. Jesus does not consider himself not God. Heck, even the Jews thought he was claiming to be God - that's why they wanted him killed for blasphemy.

but ed, I am still waiting for your response to my previous post. :)

[edpobre]

Josephus,

What is there to answer? You are bent on making Jesus God inspite of John 17:3, yet you are afraid to say that John 17:3 is false! You don't believe 1 Cor. 8:6.

What answer do you expect fom me my friend?

Ed

[Josephus]

One thing I try to do is harmonize scripture. Not pick and choose what I like and don't like. I instead reconcile scripture with scripture - and recognize that much of scripture is complementary to other scripture:

I reconcile 1 Corinthians 8:6 with Romans 11:36 for example. Rom 11:36 gives the total condition of who God is "For from him and through him and to him are all things. This describes God. 1 Cor 8:6 breaks it down: the Father's part is the "from" Jesus's part is "through" - but both one and the same God as Romans 11:35 starts to use both to explain him.


The answer I was looking forward to regarding John 17:3 is my point that there were no commas in the ancient greek. When you remove the commas, you get something totally different than what your theology purports.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: One thing I try to do is harmonize scripture. Not pick and choose what I like and don't like. I instead reconcile scripture with scripture - and recognize that much of scripture is complementary to other scripture:

I reconcile 1 Corinthians 8:6 with Romans 11:36 for example. Rom 11:36 gives the total condition of who God is "For from him and through him and to him are all things. This describes God. 1 Cor 8:6 breaks it down: the Father's part is the "from" Jesus's part is "through" - but both one and the same God as Romans 11:35 starts to use both to explain him.

You forgot John 17:3 my friend. It must also harmonize with these two. Thus, there is no question that the Father alone is the only one God of Christians. The phrases "for him", "through him" and "by him" could be mistranslations to make the Bible fit the Trinity doctrine.

You also forgot to harmonize Rom.1:35-36 with Isaiah 46:9; Psalm 100:2; Isaiah 63:16; Isaiah 64:8 and Malachi 2:10 which clearly identify who the only one God is. As you sid my friend, let's "not pick and choose what we like and don't like."

You wrote: The answer I was looking forward to regarding John 17:3 is my point that there were no commas in the ancient greek. When you remove the commas, you get something totally different than what your theology purports.

Even you remove the commas of John 17:3, the meaning remains the same: "Eternal life means knowing the Father the only true God and knowing Jesus Christ the one whom the only true God sent."

Ed

[Josephus]

"There is no question that the Father alone is the only one God of Christians. The phrases "for him", "through him" and "by him" could be mistranslations to make the Bible fit the Trinity doctrine."

Could be. But they aren't.

In regards to the multiple scripture you posted:

Of course I believe in one God! To believe otherwise would be blasphemy! What you and I differ on is what this God is and how He has choosen to reveal himself. I am agreeing that the Father is God, but what we disagree on is the Holy Spirit being God, and Jesus being God.

Let me ask you a personal question: have you ever had a prayer answered?

My latest prayer was answered yesterday. The one before that? Last week. The one before that? Last weekend.




"Even you remove the commas of John 17:3, the meaning remains the same: "Eternal life means knowing the Father the only true God and knowing Jesus Christ the one whom the only true God sent."


That's your meaning. That's not what it says. It actually says

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

also strange that Jesus is referring to himself in the third person here when praying to the Father.

To me, it is God praying "that they may know you, 'Father,' and your Son whom you have sent." It is God speaking within himself in the relationship between the persons of the Father and Jesus.


And I think I stumbled across a verse accidentally that may hint that Jesus' spirit is the Holy Spirit: "behold I am with you always even unto the end of the earth." How can Jesus be with us if He has ascended into heaven to the Father? Simple. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit who is with us and is our Counselor and guide...the same everything that Jesus was when He was here. Even the Psalms declare that God is our strong tower and refuge, our redeemer and savior, our counselor and friend, etc. All these things the Holy Spirit is (as Jesus declared He was), and all these things are what Jesus did (proving by action he was too), and the Father we know is already God.

:)

[edpobre]

Josephus,

"There is no question that the Father alone is the only one God of Christians. The phrases "for him", "through him" and "by him" could be mistranslations to make the Bible fit the Trinity doctrine."

Could be. But they aren't.

How sure are you that these aren't mistranslations? How come some versions of the Bible use "by him" and some use "through him?" Yet, they don't differ in the meaning of John 17:3!

In regards to the multiple scripture you posted:

Of course I believe in one God! To believe otherwise would be blasphemy! What you and I differ on is what this God is and how He has choosen to reveal himself. I am agreeing that the Father is God, but what we disagree on is the Holy Spirit being God, and Jesus being God.

Who is the Holy Spirit that is God in addition to the Father? The Bible says the Father is spirit and He is holy. The Bible further says that the Father (God) has seven spirits that He sends out into all the earth. Who among these is God the Holy Spirit?

I say, God the Holy Spirit is none other than God the Father because like the "WORD that was God" because it carried the power of God who SPOKE it, the "Holy Spirit is God" because it also carries the power of God from whom the spirit comes. These are only metaphors to describe the power of the WORD and the Holy Spirit.

How could Jesus be also God in addition to the Father when he himself says he is a MAN? Moreover, he identified the Father as the ONLY true God!

Let me ask you a personal question: have you ever had a prayer answered?

My latest prayer was answered yesterday. The one before that? Last week. The one before that? Last weekend.

People say that all the time. That does not prove that they have God and it was God who answered their prayers. Remember that Satan is the present ruler of this world and if one is not a child of God, he must be a child of the devil. Of course Satan will strive to prove that even without God prayers can be answered - by him.

"Even you remove the commas of John 17:3, the meaning remains the same: "Eternal life means knowing the Father the only true God and knowing Jesus Christ the one whom the only true God sent."

That's your meaning. That's not what it says. It actually says

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

also strange that Jesus is referring to himself in the third person here when praying to the Father.

Why don't you broaden your knowledge and look at other versions of the Bible. They are Bibles too and they give you a clearer rendition of the verse. And Jesus referring to himself in the third person is not at all strange. People do it all the time.

To me, it is God praying "that they may know you, 'Father,' and your Son whom you have sent." It is God speaking within himself in the relationship between the persons of the Father and Jesus.

Now this is strange - God praying to God and yet you say there is only one God! And you have twisted the verse
around to change its meaning to what you think it should be.

If this is what you believe the verse should be, why didn't Jesus simply say "that they may know YOU and ME as the only true God" or "that they may know YOU and Jesus Christ whom YOU sent as the only true God" or "that they may know US as the only true God in two persons?"

Might it be that Jesus did not know how to construct his sentence in Hebrew or Greek yet? Or might it be that Jesus did not know what he is saying and you believe he is wrong!

How come he repeated what he said in John 20:17 and told Mary that he is going to HIS Father and their Father, to HIS God and their God?

And how come apostle Paul said there is only one God and that is the Father (1 Cor. 8:6). And how come both Paul and Peter say that the Father is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:L3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3)?

These questions cannot be answered by your twisted interpretation of John 17:3!

And I think I stumbled across a verse accidentally that may hint that Jesus' spirit is the Holy Spirit: "behold I am with you always even unto the end of the earth." How can Jesus be with us if He has ascended into heaven to the Father? Simple. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit who is with us and is our Counselor and guide...the same everything that Jesus was when He was here. Even the Psalms declare that God is our strong tower and refuge, our redeemer and savior, our counselor and friend, etc. All these things the Holy Spirit is (as Jesus declared He was), and all these things are what Jesus did (proving by action he was too), and the Father we know is already God.

Your attempts to justify the deity of Jesus is pathetic. Are you aware that Jesus told this only to children of God who have received the Spirit of adoption by whom they cry out "Abba Father?" (Rom. 8:15) And are you aware that Jesus promised his disciples (those who believe in him and abide in his words - they are members of his church) that he will send the Spirit of truth that comes from the Father to remind them of all the things he taught them?

Ed

[Josephus]

"[about me answering prayers] People say that all the time. That does not prove that they have God and it was God who answered their prayers. Remember that Satan is the present ruler of this world and if one is not a child of God, he must be a child of the devil."

Yes, but the fruit of the devil is not the fruit of the Spirit. What I have experienced in my life is the fruit of the Spirit: all of it - and all the prayers answered in my life has been to produce that kind of fruit. That is one of the ways how I test the spirits to see if they are of God. How do you test them?

How would you test me being told to go to Scotland, trusting in God to provide money, obeying Him when he says to start packing anyway, finding $120 totally forgotten about long ago, meeting random homeless people, praying for someone to be off the streets and then watching from afar that prayer being answered as that person comes to realize how real God is, randomly meeting an American from my hometown who just happens to be searching for what is real in his life, happening to just have a piece of artwork in my hands to start the conversation with this artist, praying for God to somehow provide a way for my friend to get home in time, and arriving an hour and a half early on a 6 hour train ride - just 30 minutes early to catch the last subway. How do you explain that? Fun? Some twisted Satanic scheme to prevent people from entering the kingdom of God and searching for God? And my friend, these weren't just prayers answered; in fact these experiences also included divine appointments, commands to go, and instant ministry opportunities to share with people about God.

Now you tell me, if your God is so real, then what has he been doing in your life recently? My God is alive, my God is so big I am just scratching the surface of who He is. My God loves me so much, and I can only hope for His grace to love Him back in the way that pleases Him most by living my life as a living sacrifice. I worship Jesus who is God, sent from the Father who is that same being God, and am now constantly in communion and fellowship with the Holy Spirit who teaches me more and more about Himself and who He is.

I see miracles, I see mondo impossible prayer answered (one of my prayers is that if God wants me to go to England again he will do three things to confirm His will:
1.Provide me a pocket bible as I gave my last one away.
2.Provide me a laptop computer on which to write the book he has placed on my heart.
3.Provide provision for me to go without me having to ask for it.

The 1st was answered this way:
"Ryan, I've noticed you haven't had your bible at all the times I've seen you at church."
I told this person the story of how God led me to give mine away.
She asked, "Do you need a bible?"
I said, "Well, I just recieved this last week 12 hardback bibles! I know God has a sense of humor, but I'm still waiting for him to answer my prayer for a pocket bible."

"What color do you want?"
"What do you mean?"
"I mean, I have like...five pocket bibles I've been wanting to get rid of. Would you like a couple?"

...and that is how I got it.

The next thing: prayer for computer -

My friends ask me what I will be doing next. I tell them. Then they ask me what I need. I tell them I need money. Then they ask me if I need anything else. I reluctantly tell them about my desire for a computer, but it isn't necessary - but it would be a nice gift from God. They said they would pray for me concerning my next trip to England.

I wake up the next morning and didn't expect to have my friend say that he and his wife felt God leading them to buy a laptop for me! And as of two days ago, they found one for me.

The third prayer? Provision? Hah! God is only getting started. Two random appointments with people who heard I was a missionary and they want to support me - and I didn't even have to ask! God keeps opening doors, and now the only thing remaining is one I haven't mentioned yet:

that I can be released with my parent's blessing as I have to financially cover for them now that I am back home. My prayer is that when God wants me to leave, that will make a way.


Your attempts to justify the deity of Jesus is pathetic. Are you aware that Jesus told this only to children of God who have received the Spirit of adoption by whom they cry out "Abba Father?" (Rom. 8:15) And are you aware that Jesus promised his disciples (those who believe in him and abide in his words - they are members of his church) that he will send the Spirit of truth that comes from the Father to remind them of all the things he taught them?

We are dealing with physicality here. Where is Jesus? With the Father. Then how can Jesus be with us?

In Spirit.

<><
Ryan

[edpobre]

Josephus,

Nice story. I have heard similar stories before but these stories don't convince me that God answers prayers of people who are not His own.

God has said in Isaiah 59:2: "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

That's why God sent His son to reconcile Himself to us through Christ. Thus, God hears only the prayers of those who have been reconciled to Him in one body through the cross.

The presence of Jesus where two or three are gathered together in his name is not physical nor literal. However, when he comes again, those who are IN Christ will be with him wherever he is.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"That's why God sent His son to reconcile Himself to us through Christ. Thus, God hears only the prayers of those who have been reconciled to Him in one body through the cross."

That's why his prayers are answered ed, Ryan has put his faith in God...:)

[Josephus]

You want photographs ed? I got em' - of the train station, of the free room and board, of the people who God had me meet, I even have a picture of the street with the bus stop where the homeless woman was. I can also post a picture of that art drawing of an African chief that my new friend gave me. I even have pictures to prove that God totally changed my plans from visiting friends that weekend to totally changing my circumstances in going to Scotland randomly. I can send you the emails. I can even give you phone numbers of the people I talked with - all short of me putting you in my shoes.

You want proof of the cash? I got the train ticket reciept, and a printed copy of my empty bank account with no transactions in several days prior to me even thinking about Scotland.

Want journal entries? I got those too.

And this is just one adventure recently in my life.

Hey, ED! Remember the LAST post here in this thread I posted that God had to provide a way to get out of supporting my parent's financial debt? Catch this: just last night my mom and dad told me they were getting rid of an extra car, and thus it would bring their debt from $600 a month to less than $50 a month! What do you say to that? Coincidence? No! God IS faithful, and he answers the prayers of those who earnestly seek Him.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

The Bible talks of fruits of righteousness not material things. The material things that you say came from God are the devil's way of blinding you to the truth.

If it comes to real material wealth, people who don't have fear of God are much more wealthy than people who think they are religious and God abiding.

The Bible is the only proof that you have God. The Bible is the only proof that your prayers are answered. The Bible says one cannot be reconciled to God unless his sins are forgiven. And sins are forgiven only when one is redeemed by the blood of Christ. Since you are not in the true church of Christ where redemption is found, then you haven't been reconciled with God and God still doesn't hear your prayers.

The Bible cannot be proven wrong by what you perceive as God's answers to your prayers my friend. The more you believe Satan's deception, the farther you are from God and that's what makes Satan happy.

Ed

[Josephus]

"The Bible talks of fruits of righteousness not material things. The material things that you say came from God are the devil's way of blinding you to the truth."


You know what, you are so correct in this. I totally thought you were wanting PHYSICAL proof of God answering my prayers. I'm sorry. I didn't mention at all the spiritual fruit that proved that those answers were from God:

1. The lady recieved love, joy, and peace when I talked to her about praying for her.2
2. As I left, I could sense in my heart that God was teaching her patience in seeing results of my praying for her, and the moment she thought her hope was gone, a young man in kindness dropped a wad of cashe I am sure probably meant a lot to him. Than man acted days before in self-control to not spend that money and waste it, but to instead hold onto it for some purpose he didn't know.
3. Goodness is the fruit I personally recieved as I witnessed this entire event. I praised God for his goodness in providing for that lady and for letting me be a part of her blessing.
4. As my bus turned around a corner, a woman was moved by compassion and in gentleness she stooped down and started talking with her, and in my heart I knew that that woman was going to ask her to spend the night off the street.

I can give you an entire novel-like run down of ALL the fruit that happened as a result of this mission from God, but you may have to wait a few days for me to draft it all up.


If it comes to real material wealth, people who don't have fear of God are much more wealthy than people who think they are religious and God abiding.

This is a confusing quote. First, I gave up my 33k/yr job at IBM last year, and my nice car, my nice house, and everything I owned (except my bed which was stored at my parents) to chase after what I felt God leading me to do. So much has happened that I'm glad I gave everything I had up for it. I don't mean to prod, but with what you believe can you say the same? Just like baptism is proof of our salvation and making Jesus Lord of your life, so too is what I have done in my life. Can you offer up some proof that you believe in what you believe?

[edpobre]

Josephus,

Your account of your prayers being answered only proves my point that those without God are more materially wealthy than those who have God.

You say John 17:3 is true yet you insist that Jesus is God. One who has God wouldn't do that. Would you?

Ed

[Josephus]

Your account of your prayers being answered only proves my point that those without God are more materially wealthy than those who have God.


You don't get it, do you? I LEFT my IBM job, went on a missionary journey for six months, came back and as of tomorrow I will be working for an online company with my own 3rd floor private office with a window, and more money than I know what to do with.

My point Ed was to ask you if you can prove to me, by your actions either now or in the recent past, your faith in God. God may have me at this wonderful new dream job (even better than IBM - wow I am still in surprise shock at the blessing) for a time long or short, I don't know; I just know that when God says I it's time for me to go back to England (and I feel in my spirit that it's soon) then I WILL be ready to leave when God tells me to "go" again. That is my proof of my faith in God. I can burn all bridges and God will totally support me, if that is what He wants me to do. I love my God so much that I will go the ends of the earth, or come home when things are getting exciting, or God knows that I'll even be willing to die for him if that would serve His purposes. God does bless us as we need, and he blesses us in abundance according to His will.

I am not poor, and my faith is not a measure of my finances. My faith is a mesaure of my relationship with God. Heck, I know a time is comming when God will even bless me with millions in which I will be in charge of to pass through to a Christian air carrier organization - millions which to me are simply a tool God uses and I will be blessed to have no need for it. In God's economy, money is not the most important thing and certainly not a gage of one's spirituality. I give God the glory for my life, not my abilities, not myself, but God alone as He uses me and blesses me with wonderful surprises. It is because our God is a good God that He teaches us to be content in both poverty AND riches.


You say John 17:3 is true yet you insist that Jesus is God. One who has God wouldn't do that. Would you?
Ed, there are other verses in the bible than just John 17:3 ya know. There's a whole lot more in the bible, and it is with the rest of scripture that I take all other scripture in which I discern doctrine. I take the scriptures where Jesus says the Father is God, and I harmonize it with scripture that says Jesus is God. Somehow these scriptures must be reconciled with each other, without bending them, and just believing them for what they say. So where one scripture says God is the I AM, I must somehow reconcile that when Jesus plainly says he is I AM.

Don't get stuck on one verse or a group of verses, Ed. Step out of the box for a minute and seriously consider that what I may be saying is true. If you do so, God won't condemn you to hell for it - after all He wants all of us to understand who He is, and to seek to understand Him.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: Ed, there are other verses in the bible than just John 17:3 ya know. ...I take the scriptures where Jesus says the Father is God, and I harmonize it with scripture that says Jesus is God.

First, you distort what Jesus said in John 17:3. Jesus did not say “the Father is God.” Jesus said “the Father is the only true God.” You give the impression of a very intelligent guy by the way you describe your travels and your work, but you pretend not to know the meaning of the word “only.” Jesus meant to say that there is no other true God besides the Father.

Second, you want to harmonize scriptures where Jesus says the Father is the only true God with scriptures that say Jesus is God. That’s like harmonizing apples with oranges but it’s okay, I’ll take you up on that. Show me a scripture that says Jesus is God.

You wrote: Somehow these scriptures must be reconciled with each other, without bending them, and just believing them for what they say. So where one scripture says God is the I AM, I must somehow reconcile that when Jesus plainly says he is I AM.

Reconcile these “I AM” with John 17:3 Josephus: God says “I AM.” Jesus says “I AM.” The blind man also said “I AM.” Jesus says “the Father is the only true God.” Who among these “I AM” is the only true God?

Why don’t you just believe John 17:3 for what it says? Why don’t you just believe John 5:58 for what it says? Jesus says “I AM.” Leave it that way. Don’t add the word “God” after it.

You wrote: quote]Don't get stuck on one verse or a group of verses, Ed. Step out of the box for a minute and seriously consider that what I may be saying is true. If you do so, God won't condemn you to hell for it - after all He wants all of us to understand who He is, and to seek to understand Him. [/quote]

What you are saying can never be true Josephus because John 17:3 is true. The Trinity doctrine is opposite what John 17:3 teaches. Where there are two opposing views, one may be true or both may be false but both can never be true.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"First, you distort what Jesus said in John 17:3. Jesus did not say “the Father is God.” Jesus said “the Father is the only true God.” "

Ed, the word "father" is never mentioned in that verse.

"Show me a scripture that says Jesus is God."

We have ed, how about Luke 5:20-21 ;)

"The blind man also said “I AM"

Scripture verse? I bet he said I am (something)..not just I am. ;) THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.


"The Trinity doctrine is opposite what John 17:3 teaches"

False statement. It fits PERFECTLY with John 17:3 and the rest of the bible.

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

ED: "First, you distort what Jesus said in John 17:3. Jesus did not say “the Father is God.” Jesus said “the Father is the only true God.” "

LB:Ed, the word "father" is never mentioned in that verse.

What happened to your "context" Louis? have you forgotten all of a sudden? Why don't you back up to verse 1 to find out who Jesus was talking to?

ED: "Show me a scripture that says Jesus is God."

LB: We have ed, how about Luke 5:20-21

What you are saying Louis is utter falsehood. The verse doesn't say "Jesus is God." The verse only records the false statement of the Pharisees that only God can forgive sins. They did not believe Jesus when he said that he "has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Mark 2:10).

ED: "The Trinity doctrine is opposite what John 17:3 teaches"

LB: False statement. It fits PERFECTLY with John 17:3 and the rest of the bible.

I posted a new topic for you to explain and let everybody know how you can make the Trinity doctrine perfectly FIT John 17:3. I dare you to do that.

Ed

[Josephus]

"What happened to your "context" Louis? have you forgotten all of a sudden? Why don't you back up to verse 1 to find out who Jesus was talking to?"

lol, alrighty. now we're thinking on the same page. Take that same statement and apply it to Zechariah 12:10 when it is God saying "me the one they have pierced." God was pierced? Musta been Jesus. Musta meant that Jesus was God.


"The verse only records the false statement of the Pharisees that only God can forgive sins."

What scripture do you have to prove this? Who else can forgive sins?

"They did not believe Jesus when he said that he "has authority on earth to forgive sins" "

Well, wouldn't it stand for logic that only God can forgive sins, and thus that's why Jesus can?


"I posted a new topic for you to explain and let everybody know how you can make the Trinity doctrine perfectly FIT John 17:3. I dare you to do that."

Read the Greek, ed. Notice there are no commas. Next, read the english version of the verse and notice that Jesus never uses "me." It's as if Jesus is talking beside himself.

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: lol, alrighty. now we're thinking on the same page. Take that same statement and apply it to Zechariah 12:10 when it is God saying "me the one they have pierced." God was pierced? Musta been Jesus. Musta meant that Jesus was God.

My Revised Standard Version RSV) renders it differently Josephus: "...when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born."

You should start comparing your KJV with other versions of the Bible if you are truly seeking for the truth.

You wrote: What scripture do you have to prove this? Who else can forgive sins?... Well, wouldn't it stand for logic that only God can forgive sins, and thus that's why Jesus can?

Jesus said in Mark 2:10: "But that you may know that the son of man has power on earth to forgive sins." Did Jesus have this power because he is God?

Let's hear Jesus explain, thus: "...All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth" (Matt. 28:1:cool: .

Thus we now know that somebody gave Jesus the power or authority to forgive sins. That "somebody" is none other than God as we can read in Acts 5:31, thus: "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

You wrote: Read the Greek, ed. Notice there are no commas. Next, read the english version of the verse and notice that Jesus never uses "me." It's as if Jesus is talking beside himself.

The commas do not make any difference Josephus. The truth remains that eternal life means: 1) knowing the Father, the only true God; and 2) knowing Jesus Christ whom the only true God sent.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"Thus we now know that somebody gave Jesus the power or authority to forgive sins. That "somebody" is none other than God as we can read in Acts 5:31, thus: "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.""

Umm..yes so? :lol: God gave it to him because accordint to Phil 2:5-8 Jesus empties himself of EVERYTHING ed, including the ability to forgive sins. The on earth reference was really lame ed. Sounds like a drowning man.

"The commas do not make any difference Josephus. "

spoke as someone that doesn't understand greek or hebrew at all....

[Josephus]

My Revised Standard Version (RSV) renders it differently Josephus: "...when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born."

You should start comparing your KJV with other versions of the Bible if you are truly seeking for the truth.

I do not HAVE a KJV, ed. I HAVE the Greek copy of the bible from which your very own RSV is translated from! It is BETTER than your translation because my bible is not a translation! So, what do you say to that? I can tell you that in the very Greek which YOUR bible is TRANSLATED from, it reads "me" not "him" - but "him" is included in the same sentence. Your translators probably thought this was confusing, and thus "corrected" the subject to make "better sense" rather than translating word for word what it actually says: which is indeed something confusing if you are holding to a particular theology (like Jesus isn't God). But I choose instead to take for what the bible reads literally in the Greek and when I do, I see a depth of meaning and understanding in the "curious" passages we have in English.

I'd rather trust in the original language of the scriptures, than in someone's biased translation which "compensates" for "confusing passages."

So don't tell me my bible is wrong. If my bible is wrong, then yours is too because your bible is based off of mine.


Jesus said in Mark 2:10: "But that you may know that the son of man has power on earth to forgive sins." Did Jesus have this power because he is God?


Yes, Jesus already had power. He was never given POWER. But Jesus was GIVEN authority later on. Jesus had the power, but the person of Jesus did not have the "authority." There is a MAJOR difference between power and authority.


The commas do not make any difference Josephus.


In English, commas can make the difference between salvation and heresy.

[drmmjr]

Gentlemen,

You need to remember that the Old Testament was in Hebrew, not Greek.

Looking at Zech. 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. (Note: This was from KJ Version. I did not use this translation to prove the trinity, but rather to show how translators can influence what is read and understood. - note added 8-27)

Hebrew - English

shaphak {shaw-fak'} - pour, pour out
bayith {bah'-yith} - house, household
David - David
yashab {yaw-shab'} - inhabitant
Y@ruwshalaim {yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im} - Jerusalem
ruwach {roo'-akh} - spirit
chen {khane} - grace
tachanuwn {takh-an-oon'} - supplications
nabat {naw-bat'} - look, behold
daqar {daw-kar'} - thrust through, pierced
micepd {mis-pade'} - mourning
caphad {saw-fad'} - mourn, wail
yachiyd {yaw-kheed'} - only, only child, only son
marar {maw-rar'} - bitterness
marar {maw-rar'} - bitterness
b@kowr {bek-ore'} - firstborn

If the translators didn't have an exact word in their language, they typically used a word that had the closest meaning. They would also add words that they think would help to make the translation easier to read. A translation is not an exact word for word situation.

[LouisBooth]

Yes, that is our point. Ed is basing his theology on EXACT ENGLISH WORDS. ;) thanks for that translation though. The NT was written in greek (in all likelihood).

[edpobre]

dmmjr/Josephus,

The NIV and KJV versions of Zechariah 12:10 do not jibe with the truth. According to Jesus, God is spirit (John 4:24) and has no flesh and bones like he has (Luke 24:39).

If the one speaking in this verse is the one who was nailed on the cross, who was Jesus praying to when he cried out "My God, My God" on the cross? Who as Jesus praying to in John 17? Who is the Father and God that Jesus is going to in John 20:17?

The RSV, TEV and the TLB versions of the verse are more accurately translated than what you are looking at.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

:lol: okay..now certain translations are "off limits" too..do you know greek ed? Are you saying that these men with Ph Ds are not better equiped to translate then you are? okay..now that is funny ;) By the way ed, Ryan said he was looking AT THE GREEK.

[edpobre]

that you have come to the knowledge of the truth. On the contrary, these things are hidden from such peope as Jesus himself testified: "...I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in your sight" (Luke 10:21).

Ed

[Josephus]

Is that your only defense? You have nothing to say to counter the original Hebrew and Greek? You can't. It's not possible to counter it with something else unless you make up parts of the bible that aren't there, and translations usually do that. It doesn't matter if you use RSV, NIV, or KJV. The only thing that stands as accurate scripture is the very language it was written in, and the language keeps the first and third person transitional of "me", and "him" - indicating it is the SAME person talking who get's pierced, and we know from the previous verse that it is the Lord God who is talking.

It is in all love that I encourage you to stop your debate, and instead seek out the truth from the perspective of the bible, and not from the perspective of some translator. I don't know, but do you Ed consider it a sin to discover the truth as written in the bible for yourself? This means getting a bible with the original language, and buying a few translation dictonaries. Unless you do, then you will never discover truth if you cling to just one or two voices your ears itch to keep hearing because you like it. Only those who truly seek out the Lord find him. My ears don't itch, Ed. I listen to everybody and read everything. But in the end, I make the final decision. It is my eternal destiny after all, and I truly believe in God's promise to mankind that "those who draw near to him, he draws near to." I will seek, and there is nothing wrong with seeking without any bias except only two: God exists, and the bible is true. Aside from these two, have no other bias when you approach scripture Ed. If you do, then you will learn and come to learn a lot.

-Josephus


-Josephus

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: Is that your only defense? You have nothing to say to counter the original Hebrew and Greek? You can't. It's not possible to counter it with something else unless you make up parts of the bible that aren't there, and translations usually do that. It doesn't matter if you use RSV, NIV, or KJV. The only thing that stands as accurate scripture is the very language it was written in, and the language keeps the first and third person transitional of "me", and "him" - indicating it is the SAME person talking who get's pierced, and we know from the previous verse that it is the Lord God who is talking.

The accuracy of any translation is tested against the truth.

The NIV renders Zechariah 12:10 thus: "...They will look on ME, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for HIM as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for HIM as one grieves for a firstborn son."

The RSV renders Zechariah 12:10 ths: "...when they look on HIM whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for HIM, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over HIM, as one weeps over a firstborn."

There is no denying that it is the Lord God speaking in this verse. But the NIV is mistranslated to make it appear that it was the Lord God who was pierced by using "ME" instead of "Him" so that the myth of God and Jesus being one and the same God may find some sort of Biblical support. If it was the Lord God that was pierced and hanging on the cross, who was He crying out to, saying: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

The truth is, God is spirit (John 4:24) and cannot be pierced. It was the Father speaking in Zechariah 12:10 and He was referring to His Son who was pierced and mourned as an only child and wept over as a firstborn. Thus, the RSV is the more accurte translation.

You wrote: It is in all love that I encourage you to stop your debate, and instead seek out the truth from the perspective of the bible, and not from the perspective of some translator.

Do you understand what you are saying Josephus? Whose perspective is it that the Father is the only true God? Whose perspective is it that God is spirit (John 4:24) and has no flesh and bones as Jresus has (Luke 24:39)? Whose perspectibe is it that it was God who raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9)?

You are the one who's hanging on to some translator's perspective because it supports your false belief about Jesus and God.

You wrote: ... you will never discover truth if you cling to just one or two voices your ears itch to keep hearing because you like it.

Yeah, that's why you like listening to the NIV rendition of Zechariah 12:10 because it's what your itching ears want to hear - that God and Jesus are one and the same God.

You wrote: Only those who truly seek out the Lord find him.

That's true my friend. That's why until now you have not found the only true God.

You wrote: My ears don't itch, Ed. I listen to everybody and read everything.

But you listen only to those that your itching ears want to hear. Can you imagine God saying "me" they pierced and "him" they mourn just so Trinitarians ccan find support for their false belief?

You wrote:But in the end, I make the final decision. It is my eternal destiny after all, and I truly believe in God's promise to mankind that "those who draw near to him, he draws near to." I will seek, and there is nothing wrong with seeking without any bias except only two: God exists, and the bible is true. Aside from these two, have no other bias when you approach scripture Ed. If you do, then you will learn and come to learn a lot.[/quote]

I hope you truly believe the Bible especially John 8:40 and John 17:3 because knowing the only true God and knowing the one whom the only true God sent means eternal life.

Ed

[Josephus]

Ed, let's quit it with the translation debate:

let's get to the Hebrew:


And they shall look (Strong's 5027)
on Me

whom 834

they have pierced 1856

and they shall mourn 4553
for Him

as one mourns 5594
for

an only son 3173

and will be bitter 4553

over Him 5921

like bitterness 4843

over 5921

the firstborn 1060

The words "for Him" are different than "on Me." There is no connection, no same pronoun. There really is a change in the perspective within this one verse - and it's Hebrew! And we all know that the Hebrew scriptures are the most accurate copies of any known manuscript ever to exist!!! How can you debate against the actual Hebrew scripture? You are using inferior English translations. Only the Hebrew and Greek copies of the manuscripts originally penned are the best source for semantic authority. How can you say I'm trusting a translator when I am reading the very language of Hebrew itself? I've listed a few Strongs references in case you are unfamiliar with Hebrew.

[LouisBooth]

". But the NIV is mistranslated to "

I just think its funny how Ed is saying that people that have studied the bible all their life and have studied the hebrew and greek language all their life are wrong..next thing ya know ed will be predicting weather and the stock market too ;) Ed, you (I don't think so anyway) have the language background to say how something should be translated. You haven't studied greek or hebrew.

[edpobre]

Josephus/Louis,

As I said, the test of accuracy of any translation is the truth written in the Bible.

I cannot accept your allegation that the RSV, TEV and TLB versions of Zechariah 12:10 are wrong in favor of what you allege as original Hebrew or Greek texts because these versions (RSV, TEV, TLB) are consistent with ALL other versions of the Bible in so far as the identity of the only one true God is (John 17:3). They all point to the Father as the only true God.

All versions are also consistent in so far as God being a spirit (John 4:24) and without flesh and bones as Jesus has (Luke 24:39).

All versions are also consistent in so far as Jesus having a Father and a God (John 20:17).

If your version of Zechariah 12:10 is true, then it would mean that the Father is also the son who was crucified.That would make all the verses I quoted above false!

All scriptures are given by inspiration of God. Thus, no scripture or any translation or interpretation thereof must make another verse false.

Ed

[Josephus]

"I cannot accept your allegation..."

Don't accept my "allegation." Instead, call the RSV foundation as listed in your information section under the publisher's name.

Or better yet, ask your pastor which Hebrew text the RSV Old Testament is translated from, and he'll give you a dumb look. THere is no other Hebrew text - all Hebrew texts are the same because that is how it was copied throughout thousands of years. So the Hebrew text the RSV and other translations come from is the exact same Hebrew text I have in a hard-bound volume you can purchase from Sovereign Grace Publishers:

www.sovgracepub.com/bibles/interlin.htm (http://www.sovgracepub.com/bibles/interlin.htm)

I challenge you to find another Hebrew text from which your RSV was translated from. You will not find it. The words are there. The NCCCA that made the RSV intentionally left out many key words, and translated many of them wrong to better suit a theological bias. The same is true to a smaller extent with the Needs Improvement Version (NIV), and pretty much any English translation.

[Josephus]

I also want you to see a page of what my bible looks like:

www.sovgracepub.com/bible.../page1.htm (http://www.sovgracepub.com/bibles/interlinearpages/page1.htm)

after looking at it, you may want one. it is the only kind of bible like it that exists - because there is no need for other bibles like it because there are no other copies of the Hebrew scriptures! In fact, it is this book that the RSV translators referenced in building their translation!

[drmmjr]

A fine looking Bible.

Do you read the Hebrew or the text under the Hebrew?

[edpobre]

Josephus,

Drmmjr has a point. Do you read the Hebrew or the text under the Hebrew? Why can't you answer him?

I eagerly await your reply.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

:lol: ed every translation says the word was God and that he BECAME FLESH.

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote: ed every translation says the word was God and that he BECAME FLESH.

While it is true that every translation says "the word was God", not a single Bible says "HE became flesh."

Ed

[LouisBooth]

the word became flesh ed and dwelt among us..that should tell you it became a man this coupled with John the B's words in verses 15 and 30 should tell you its Jesus..its that easy.

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote: the word became flesh ed and dwelt among us..that should tell you it became a man this coupled with John the B's words in verses 15 and 30 should tell you its Jesus..its that easy.

WHAT was the WORD that became flesh?
The FLESH dwelt with us - NOT the WORD that became flesh.
John the Baptist says Jesus was BEFORE him. What do you THINK this means? Does it mean Jesus was God?

MESH with John 17:3 and John 8:40 my friend. Since Jesus says he is a man and the FATHER is the ONLY true God, John 1:15 and 30 mean that Jesus was in the MIND or PLAN of God before God even thought of sending John the Baptist. to prepare the WAY for Jesus.

Ed

[White Knight 777]

Jesus Christ, is the God of the OT.

From the beginning there is only a mention of two beings that said, 'Let US make man in OUR own image.'

Not One, not three, as in a Trinity!

In I Cor it states that it was Christ that was the rock that followed the ancient Israelities in the wilderness. It was also Christ that stated to the Hbebrews that they have NEVER heard God's voice or seen His shape.

Why is it so hard for moderns to put it together that the God of the Old Testament IS the same CHRIST that came to the ancient Israelitites?

Why is it that they CANNOT conceive that the same God that came to the Israelities in the ancient past, is the same one that came in the first century

WK

[Josephus]

ed, I posted my response to drmmjr in several threads. sorry I didn't get to it sooner

[LouisBooth]

"WHAT was the WORD that became flesh?
The FLESH dwelt with us - NOT the WORD that became flesh."

Umm..ed, that makes no sence at all. It says the word became flesh and dwelt among us, that meshes PERFECTLY with trinity docterine (see phi 2:5-8 for more details).

"John the Baptist says Jesus was BEFORE him. What do you THINK this means? Does it mean Jesus was God? "

Well, since John was born FIRST yeah I think he is saying that. How can someone born after you come before you? hmm?


"MESH with John 17:3 and John 8:40 my friend. "

See other posts in this thread, I have and so have others.

"John 1:15 and 30 mean that Jesus was in the MIND or PLAN of God before God even thought of sending John the Baptist. to prepare the WAY for Jesus."

No, Jesus was pre-exsistance and John 1:1 makes that clear. Also how can Jesus say before Abraham, I AM? This points to him saying he is God ;) Did you need us to list a few verses about Jesus' pre-exsistance?

[edpobre]

WK,

You wrote: Jesus Christ, is the God of the OT.

From the beginning there is only a mention of two beings that said, 'Let US make man in OUR own image.'

Not One, not three, as in a Trinity!

Please show us the verse that says Jesus Christ is the God of the OT. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that the only Lord God is the Father who created everything (Is. 44:8; Is. 46:9; Ps. 100:3; Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8; Mal. 2:10; 1 Cor. 8:6; John 17:3).

The Bible also teaches us that Christ is the SON of God whom the only true God, the Father sent (Matt. 3:17; Matt. 17:5; Matt. 16:16; John 10:36; John 2o:31; John 17:3).

You wrote: In I Cor it states that it was Christ that was the rock that followed the ancient Israelities in the wilderness. It was also Christ that stated to the Hbebrews that they have NEVER heard God's voice or seen His shape.

This only means that the ancient Israelites were looking forward to the day that Christ the savior is born and dies for them. The blood of Christ covers not only the sins of those who lived in his time but also those who lived before him and after him.

You wrote: Why is it so hard for moderns to put it together that the God of the Old Testament IS the same CHRIST that came to the ancient Israelitites?

What you are saying cannot be true WK because Apostle Peter said that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). How then could Jesus Christ have existed before he was exalted to the right hand of God (Acts 2:33)?

You wrote: Why is it that they CANNOT conceive that the same God that came to the Israelities in the ancient past, is the same one that came in the first century.

Nobody in his right mind could even think of what you are saying WK because the Bible says there is only one God and that only one God is not a man.

Jesus himself attests to this (John 4:24; John 17:3; John 20:17; Luke 24:39) and emphasized it in numerous occasions by praying to God the Father.

Apostle Paul also attests that it was God the Father (1 Cor. 8:6) who raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9).

Whoever taught you these things is a false teacher who will only lead you to the lake of fire.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"Please show us the verse that says Jesus Christ is the God of the OT. "

how about this..before abraham, I am...that is the name of God in the OT and he applies it to himself.

"What you are saying cannot be true WK because Apostle Peter said that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). "

You're missing the context.

"How then could Jesus Christ have existed before he was exalted to the right hand of God (Acts 2:33)?"

Umm..does God have a right hand, much less a place there? Its an indication of power ed. ;)


"Nobody in his right mind could even think of what you are saying WK because the Bible says there is only one God and that only one God is not a man."

Actually the bible backs up what WK is saying ed.


Ed, show me a verse in which it says Jesus is NOT God and I'll believe you because I have shown you where it says he is God.

[edpobre]

LouisBoooth,

ED: "Please show us the verse that says Jesus Christ is the God of the OT. "

LB: how about this..before abraham, I am...that is the name of God in the OT and he applies it to himself.

You are adding to the verse what you think should be there. The verse simply says "I AM" and could mean several things other than he is God.

ED: "What you are saying cannot be true WK because Apostle Peter said that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). "

LB: You're missing the context.

Show me the context that could change what the verse is saying. God made Jesus Christ. How can Jesus be the Christ that is the God in the Old Testament?

ED: "How then could Jesus Christ have existed before he was exalted to the right hand of God (Acts 2:33)?"

LB:Umm..does God have a right hand, much less a place there? Its an indication of power ed.

The point is, how could Jesus have existed as Christ in the OT before he was exalted to the right hand of God?

ED: "Nobody in his right mind could even think of what you are saying WK because the Bible says there is only one God and that only one God is not a man."

LB: Actually the bible backs up what WK is saying ed.

Then why could not WK answer this?

You wrote: Ed, show me a verse in which it says Jesus is NOT God and I'll believe you because I have shown you where it says he is God.

You have't shown me any verse that says Jesus is God. John 8:58 says: "Before Abraham was I AM." This verse does not say Jesus is God. John 10:30 says: "I and the Father are one." This verse does not say Jesus is God. There is not even any reason to infer that Jesus meant that he is God because Jesus has said that he is a man and the father is the only true God.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"The verse simply says "I AM" and could mean several things other than he is God."

Ed, you haven't read the OT where God says that is his name did you. The people that hear this statement knew EXACTLY what Jesus was claiming. Go study greek and then read your OT.

"How can Jesus be the Christ that is the God in the Old Testament?"

well, number one he plainly said I AM THE MESSIAH..OR CHRIST. :)

"God made Jesus Christ. "

Nope..read phil 2:5-8 or John chapter 1, take your pick...or maybe where in john 17 he says he was with God in the beginning.

"The point is, how could Jesus have existed as Christ in the OT before he was exalted to the right hand of God?"

I think Jesus answered that himself several times the eaisest to spot is BEFORE ABRAHAM, I AM. ;)

"You have't shown me any verse that says Jesus is God. John 8:58 says: "Before Abraham was I AM." This verse does not say Jesus is God. John 10:30 says: "I and the Father are one." This verse does not say Jesus is God. "

then sadly you have hardened your heart and blinded your eyes to the truth because that's exactly what those verses say.

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

ED: The verse simply says "I AM" and could mean several things other than he is God."

LB: Ed, you haven't read the OT where God says that is his name did you. The people that hear this statement knew EXACTLY what Jesus was claiming. Go study greek and then read your OT.

The Pharisees were WRONG in supposing that Christ was saying he is God when he said "I AM." I have read that part where God says "I AM." I also know that God says "I am the Alpha and Omega." Jesus said this too but this does not mean that he was saying he is God.

ED: "How can Jesus be the Christ that is the God in the Old Testament?"

LB: well, number one he plainly said I AM THE MESSIAH..OR CHRIST.

Where does it say that Christ is God in the OT? The Bible does not teach that.

ED: "God made Jesus, Christ."

LB: Nope..read phil 2:5-8 or John chapter 1, take your pick...or maybe where in john 17 he says he was with God in the beginning.

Acts 2:36 says: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord andf Christ."

Phil. 2:5-8 is Paul's figurative way of describing Jesus' humility, that despite his awesome powers, he did not boast of it.

John 1:1 is not about Jesus. It is John's figurative way of describing God's WORD (expressed idea, plan or promise) regarding Jesus.

ED: "You have't shown me any verse that says Jesus is God. John 8:58 says: "Before Abraham was I AM." This verse does not say Jesus is God. John 10:30 says: "I and the Father are one." This verse does not say Jesus is God. "

LB:then sadly you have hardened your heart and blinded your eyes to the truth because that's exactly what those verses say.

It's your heart that has been hardened and your eyes that has been blinded to the truth that these verses do not say Jesus is God beyond what they truly mean.

You are seeing in these verses what your fanatical mind perceive.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"The Pharisees were WRONG in supposing that Christ was saying he is God when he said "I AM." "

Don't think they where the only ones that thought that :lol: you're really grasping at straws here ed. if I say I am the great I am..you should understand that I am claiming to be God.

"Where does it say that Christ is God in the OT? The Bible does not teach that."

Jesus plainly says I am the Messiah...you equated this to being God..:) should I post your words?

"Phil. 2:5-8 is Paul's figurative way of describing Jesus' humility, that despite his awesome powers, he did not boast of it."

What part of BEING IN THE VERY NATURE OF GOD dont you understand? Should I tell you about "nature" according to philosphy and theology?


"John 1:1 is not about Jesus. "

Not you're just ignoring what it says in the bible ed. John clearly marks Jesus as the logos...see verse 18, 14 and 30.

"It's your heart that has been hardened and your eyes that has been blinded to the truth that these verses do not say Jesus is God beyond what they truly mean."

I'm rubber and you're glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you..:lol: whatever ed. I have CLEAR biblical support for my positon along with church tradition backing me as well as (I would say) 90% of the current christian theologians. :)

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

"The Pharisees were WRONG in supposing that Christ was saying he is God when he said "I AM." "

Don't think they where the only ones that thought that you're really grasping at straws here ed. if I say I am the great I am..you should understand that I am claiming to be God.

Iy you say you are the great I am, I wouldn't think you are claiming to be God. On the other hand, I would think you are a lunatic.

"Where does it say that Christ is God in the OT? The Bible does not teach that."

Jesus plainly says I am the Messiah...you equated this to being God.. should I post your words?

You are a liar to put words in my mouth. I dare you to post it.

"Phil. 2:5-8 is Paul's figurative way of describing Jesus' humility, that despite his awesome powers, he did not boast of it."

What part of BEING IN THE VERY NATURE OF GOD dont you understand? Should I tell you about "nature" according to philosphy and theology?

Why should anyone believe anything you say? Paul says in plain and clearly understandable English that there is only one God, the Father (1 Cor. 8:6). "Being in the very nature of God" does not mean Jesus is God. As I have satated, it;s only Paul's figurative way of describing the awesome powers of Jesus.

"John 1:1 is not about Jesus. "

Not you're just ignoring what it says in the bible ed. John clearly marks Jesus as the logos...see verse 18, 14 and 30.

See how blind you are Louis. I'm talking about Johhn 1:1 NOT the rest of chapter 1. Verse 18 of your version of the Bible is a mis-translation.

"It's your heart that has been hardened and your eyes that has been blinded to the truth that these verses do not say Jesus is God beyond what they truly mean."

I'm rubber and you're glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.. whatever ed. I have CLEAR biblical support for my positon along with church tradition backing me as well as (I would say) 90% of the current christian theologians.

I don't blame you for saying that Louis because you are a fanatic who doesn't want to seek the truth as recorded in the Bible. Just as psychos see things differently, fanatics do too.

You can believe what you want but nothing you have posted can change the TRUTH of John 17:3 - that the Father is the ONLY true God.

Ed

[ZoneChaos]

All scriptures are given by inspiration of God. Thus, no scripture or any translation or interpretation thereof must make another verse false.


I'm talking about Johhn 1:1 NOT the rest of chapter 1. Verse 18 of your version of the Bible is a mis-translation.


Ed, these are two of your wuotes. If you think that all translations of inspired, thenn how is this even possible?

The fact is, that only the original autographs were truly inspired. We must go as far back a we can, to the earliest translations we can, to get as close as we can to the poriginal autographs. Josephus pinted out that some of the newer translations were in error, when compared with the Hebrew. This is valid. And should be considered, and yet to shrugged it off in favor of a new translation which appears to suport your concepts. What you fail to ackknowledge is that the older translations do not support your concepts, and ye they are in less error than the ones you cling to.

[Josephus]

The Pharisees were WRONG in supposing that Christ was saying he is God when he said "I AM." I have read that part where God says "I AM." I also know that God says "I am the Alpha and Omega." Jesus said this too but this does not mean that he was saying he is God.

Then what do you think Jesus was meaning when he said, "I AM?" and not "I WAS" ..."I AM hungry?" lol

and how could Jesus exist before Abraham if he's not God? If your answer is, "Jesus existed as a spirit - that is how he could exist before Abraham" then isn't that category alone qualification enough to at least BEGIN to assume that the Spirit of Jesus could very well be the Spirit of God - aka the Father?

[LouisBooth]

"Iy you say you are the great I am, I wouldn't think you are claiming to be God. On the other hand, I would think you are a lunatic."

I don't think you have read the OT ed. This is the EXACT name God used to identify himself. It would be like me, in todays language, saying ed, I am God. You're just denying the words on the page now ed :)

"You are a liar to put words in my mouth. I dare you to post it."

Why don't you read Luke 9:18-27 He says it there :)

"Paul says in plain and clearly understandable English that there is only one God, the Father (1 Cor. 8:6). "

Ed, check that verse again and read the second part of it..:) Jesus is Lord..:) right there in black and white..now check the greek of that verse :)

"As I have satated, it;s only Paul's figurative way of describing the awesome powers of Jesus."

:lol: there is nothing "figerative" about it ed, he is literally in the nature of God He is God :) That's what Paul is claiming there.

" I'm talking about Johhn 1:1 NOT the rest of chapter 1. Verse 18 of your version of the Bible is a mis-translation."

Wel, John 1:1 is about Jesus, the author of John (usually thought to be John the apostle) clearly makes a link to show us that. If you don't believe it that's okay, just don't say it doesn't happen because even my 8 year old nephew can see that.


"You can believe what you want but nothing you have posted can change the TRUTH of John 17:3 - that the Father is the ONLY true God."

Ed, you can't mesh that with the rest of what Jesus say and have it not conflict, I can..that's what it comes down to. If you want to keep your view you have to cut out most of the book of John, and the other synopics, not to mention several of Pauls letters out of your bible. so get your sissors ready ed, because that's the ONLY way you can keep your view, by ignoring what the bible says.

[MikeMcK]

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