I have a question for Messianics.. on sacrifices.

[MiamiHeat]

Do Messianic believer in Messiah believe that sacrifices countinue today? Or some sort i heard one time from a Messianic that sacrifices were not abolished. It is the reason why i ask. Thanks

[talmidim]

Do Messianic believer in Messiah believe that sacrifices countinue today? Or some sort i heard one time from a Messianic that sacrifices were not abolished. It is the reason why i ask. ThanksThey are not abolished. But they are forbidden under the current circumstance. Sacrifices must be made on the altar, at the Temple and conducted by the Levitical priesthood according to the statutes laid out in scripture. So yes,Christians are being Torah observant by not offering sacrifices! :D Nice to know, huh? BTW, animal sacrifices will be reinstituted at the Temple upon His return according to scripture. So too will the observation of His holy Feasts Days. Now, why is that? (I'd love to hear the explanation for this one...)

[visionary]

Are things done as a memorial? Could the sacrifices be reinstituted as a memorial?

[talmidim]

Are things done as a memorial? Could the sacrifices be reinstituted as a memorial?C'mon Vis, I wanted to hear about how everything has been nailed to the... Oops, there I go giving the patent answer away... http://www3.christianforums.com/images/mood/Happy.gif

[visionary]

C'mon Vis, I wanted to hear about how everything has been nailed to the... Oops, there I go giving the patent answer away... http://www3.christianforums.com/images/mood/Happy.gifI :thumbsup: bet you are a hoot in person too.

[talmidim]

OK, I'll quit goofing around.



Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
These verses indicate that the world will STILL need some convincing. There will be those who do not believe in Him or His sacrifice. There will be those in Israel that will not believe. But He is so merciful to His children that He will make a way for sacrifices to be made FOR THEM and their sins so they will not perish. He will also extend lifespans so that all will have a chance to come around before it's too late (and the evil one is released again).

There is also the matter of judgement. We are not called to His wrath, but to His judgement. If you read the scriptures about the sacrificial system carefully, you will see that it was about escaping the full weight of His righteous judgement. We can be forgiven by our Mom or Dad for dropping that vase in the store, but it still has to be payed for - and you can bet, a part of it is coming out of your allowance... Know what I mean?

[talmidim]

I :thumbsup: bet you are a hoot in person too.That is an on again, off again, very qualified yes, depending on how well I treat my DW! :cool: But thanks for the sentiment. I'll take as much encouragement as I can get (though she may be saying, "Don't encourage him!" ;))

[MiamiHeat]

That is an on again, off again, very qualified yes, depending on how well I treat my DW! :cool: But thanks for the sentiment. I'll take as much encouragement as I can get (though she may be saying, "Don't encourage him!" ;)) I read something a while ago and this was in another message board that really impact me about sacrifices hear it is....

In Matthew 5.19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." No just before that Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

It would seem that by that context that Jesus was saying that anyone that breaks the "least" of the commandments from that Law, would be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. I would like to know why Jesus would say this if Paul suposedly said that we don't have to observe this law that Jesus said would last until all was fulfilled, and that we shouldn't break the smallest commandment from it.

In Acts 18.18 it says that Paul had a vow. What vow would this have been? The law of the Old Testament has vows that a man may take. Upon the fulfillment of the vow one must offer a sacrifice at the Temple. We see Paul doing this in Acts 21.26. So if Paul had liberty and was under grace, why did he take a vow and offer sacrfices?

Paul said in Romans 3.1-2 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of G-d." The word "oracles" in the greek means an utterance or spoken word. What oracles did G-d give the Jews? The law (which is not just Exodus thru Deuteronomy, but Genesis aswell) was give to the Jews. Jesus himself said in John 4.22 "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." So why would G-d if he were just going to tell the believers in his Son, to ignore most of his law? Why punish Israel over and over again? Why Tell Israel that his law is forever over and over again?

Leviticus 23. 14 & 31 "And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings."

"Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings."


Exodus 31.16-17 "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."

Also Deuteronomy 29.29 "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

There are many more examples of G-d telling Isreal that his law is forever. But what does Paul say about that law. That by the law is knowledge of sin, Romans 3.20. 1 John 3.4 tells us that sin is transgression of the law. Paul also tells us that the law is holy, the commandment holy and just and good, Romans 7.12. Paul also tells us in Romans 2.13 that not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law are justified before G-d. Romans 7.7 Paul tells us that keeping that law is not a sin, but that without the law Paul wouldn't have know what sin was.

So why does the bible say all these things, if were are not to keep the law of G-d? What do Messianics think of taking vows and animal sacrifices for today, i know some Massianics my not agree. But The person that wrote this is Messianic.

[Wags]

I believe your question was answered in previous posts - but allow me to restate...

The Torah has not been done away with. If there were still a Temple then we would still be making sacrifices, just as the first followers of Yeshua did until the temple was destroyed. It is a violation of Torah to offer up sacrifices anywhere but the temple. Since most vows involve sacrifce the answer is the same for those.

[talmidim]

I believe your question was answered in previous posts - but allow me to restate...

The Torah has not been done away with. If there were still a Temple then we would still be making sacrifices, just as the first followers of Yeshua did until the temple was destroyed. It is a violation of Torah to offer up sacrifices anywhere but the temple. Since most vows involve sacrifce the answer is the same for those.What she said! :thumbsup:

[MiamiHeat]

I believe your question was answered in previous posts - but allow me to restate...

The Torah has not been done away with. If there were still a Temple then we would still be making sacrifices, just as the first followers of Yeshua did until the temple was destroyed. It is a violation of Torah to offer up sacrifices anywhere but the temple. Since most vows involve sacrifce the answer is the same for those. So here comes my next question if true that the problem is the Temple and if there were still a temple to make sacrifices we would be making them today! Then What was the purpose of Jesus death?

[jgonz]

If there still was a Temple and an altar, then Yes, there would still be sacrifices going on today. Judaism, as a religion, does not accept Yeshua as Messiah, so they would continue those sacrifices required by the Torah.

Yeshua's death was the ultimate atonement for Sin.

[christinepro]

When is the lion suppose to lay with the lamb? Is this after the mellenium of peace or after? Maybe there won't be any killing of animals at this time.

[MiamiHeat]

If there still was a Temple and an altar, then Yes, there would still be sacrifices going on today. Judaism, as a religion, does not accept Yeshua as Messiah, so they would continue those sacrifices required by the Torah. But my original question was why do some Messianics believers in Yeshua believe that we should practices animal sacrifices today?

Yeshua's death was the ultimate atonement for Sin. I want to ask another question! In our church it is taught that the scapegoat represents Satan since all the sins of the people was transfered from the priest to the scapegoat in the O.T. The scapegoat would be sent away from the presence of the people and the land never to return again. Do Messianics believe that the scapegoat typologically represents Satan?

[visionary]

Azazel is the scapegoat, which is the one who bears all the sins out of the encampment after the day of atonement. He is not the sacrifice for sin, just the one who is ultimately blamed for sin.

I believe that Azasel represents Satan in the prophectic picture painted in Yom Kippur symbolism.

[jgonz]

But my original question was why do some Messianics believers in Yeshua believe that we should practices animal sacrifices today?

There were more sacrifices than for just sin. There were sacrifices for dedication of the altar itself, peace offerings, meal offerings, burnt offerings, etc. not just sin offerings.

[MiamiHeat]

There were more sacrifices than for just sin. There were sacrifices for dedication of the altar itself, peace offerings, meal offerings, burnt offerings, etc. not just sin offerings. I know that, but if there was a temple would it be proper to practice them today? Or is it ok anyways if we still practice them other sacrifices today?

[Wags]

I know that, but if there was a temple would it be proper to practice them today? Or is it ok anyways if we still practice them other sacrifices today?

If there were a proper temple in place today then we would be making sacrifices just as the followers of Yeshua continued to do until the destruction of the temple. Even Paul, (who according to christian beliefs was anti-torah), continued to make sacrifices in the temple.

Sacrifices are only to be made in the temple - so no, doing them today would not be acceptable, and in fact would be a violation of Torah.

I don't know of any messianics that promote sacrifies currently - since there is no way to do them at present. But just because there is not currently a temple doesn't mean that those instructions from Adonai are null and void. Scripture clearly states that they will eventually be reinstated.

[Tishri1]

So here comes my next question if true that the problem is the Temple and if there were still a temple to make sacrifices we would be making them today! Then What was the purpose of Jesus death?the purpose of sacrifices was to Korban or "draw near" to ABBA Yeshua's death took care of that yes but there are still purposes that offerings fullfill, one is that they point to Yeshua, and there are still people out there that need to see this example in the Korban.....I like to think of the offering as a meal ABBA is inviting us to...when they brought a sacrifice many things happened....people repented, people drew near to ABBA and his throne of grace....The priests were fed, and cared for...the widows and orphans too....one of the offerings was a 10th of your increace that you brought to share and had a party for yourself and your friends before ABBA....It really was a complex and wonderful thing(when done with the right heart):groupray:

[MiamiHeat]

the purpose of sacrifices was to Korban or "draw near" to ABBA Yeshua's death took care of that yes but there are still purposes that offerings fullfill, one is that they point to Yeshua, and there are still people out there that need to see this example in the Korban.....I like to think of the offering as a meal ABBA is inviting us to...when they brought a sacrifice many things happened....people repented, people drew near to ABBA and his throne of grace....The priests were fed, and cared for...the widows and orphans too....one of the offerings was a 10th of your increace that you brought to share and had a party for yourself and your friends before ABBA....It really was a complex and wonderful thing(when done with the right heart):groupray: Thanks i really appreciate reading your understanding but i have more questions.

Heb 8:2-9
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A ne covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Don't these scriptures prove that the sacrifical laws and the priesthood were faulty and that there needed to be a change? How would Messianics interpret Heb Chapter 8 and 9?

[MiamiHeat]

hey Guy... still waiting on an answer to the question on Heb Chapter 8 and 9.

Thanks..

[Wags]

Thanks i really appreciate reading your understanding but i have more questions.

Heb 8:2-9
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A ne covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Don't these scriptures prove that the sacrifical laws and the priesthood were faulty and that there needed to be a change? How would Messianics interpret Heb Chapter 8 and 9?

So what you are saying is that Adonai is not perfect and can make something that is faulty (i.e. sinful)? :confused:

[MiamiHeat]

So what you are saying is that Adonai is not perfect and can make something that is faulty (i.e. sinful)? :confused: No, im just curious to know how do Messianics interpret these difficult scriptures. It seems to me that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and that the priest hood is more excellent now, Christ himself being our priest in the order of Melchizadeck Then what it was before a carnal priesthood what do you guys think.:)

[Yovel]

Thanks i really appreciate reading your understanding but i have more questions.

Heb 8:2-9
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A ne covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Don't these scriptures prove that the sacrifical laws and the priesthood were faulty and that there needed to be a change? How would Messianics interpret Heb Chapter 8 and 9?It looks to me that the writer is saying God's Covenant that He gave to Moshe is decaying.hmmmm.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I don't think we have this NEW covenant yet, because we still have to teach our neighbor and brother about Torah.

[Tishri1]

Thanks i really appreciate reading your understanding but i have more questions.



5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. (This is true that the temple and priesthood is a copy ,exactly how ABBA wanted it; a copy or shadow of the Heavenly sanctuary)




¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

(We all know that better promise of redemption threw His blood!)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

(take out the italicsized word and read it in context....the subject is priesthood.....something is wrong with the priesthood)

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

(again take out the italicsized word, and the context is still priesthood-PEOPLE make priesthoods) Don't these scriptures prove that the sacrifical laws and the priesthood were faulty and that there needed to be a change? How would Messianics interpret Heb Chapter 8 and 9?yes! the priesthood was faulty, filled with corruption ...even the High Priest was more of a political figure, than a minister of ABBA...PEOPLE are always faulty, and sinful....that is except Yeshua, who became forever the priest after the order of Melkisdek(sp) Only the people were corrupt, nothing else was broken...

[DiddyDon]

Is it wrong to kill an animal? Calm down PETA. If so, don't eat meat - it had to be killed. If it is okay then what is wrong with sacrificing to the Lord? The priests ate some of the meat. If you feel it is wrong to kill an animal then don't. The Bible says not to judge one way or the other.

[christinepro]

I don't think we have this NEW covenant yet, because we still have to teach our neighbor and brother about Torah. Good point:holy:

[Yovel]

Is it wrong to kill an animal? Calm down PETA. If so, don't eat meat - it had to be killed. If it is okay then what is wrong with sacrificing to the Lord? The priests ate some of the meat. If you feel it is wrong to kill an animal then don't. The Bible says not to judge one way or the other.
In order to sacirfice an animal it had to clean (Kosher) and without blemish. It was presented to the priests to be killed and the blood would be sprinkled on the alter. Since we have no Temple and Priests it would be an abomination to sacrifice an animal on your own.

Read the first 7 chapters of Vayikra (Leviticus). It gives instruction for how each sacrifice was to be presented.

[Tishri1]

I thought you were waiting for your answers*sad*:sigh: maybe you didn't see them...well there here waiting for you:wave:

[talmidim]

I don't think we have this NEW covenant yet, because we still have to teach our neighbor and brother about Torah.Shalom Yovel,

There is a marvelous teaching on the nature of the covenant that G-d made with man. We know that it is about redemption and salvation, but did you know it came in stages?... Seven stages? So no, this isn't a NEW covenant, but another level of the same covenant. Lemme see if I can find my notes on this one... Maybe better left for another thread...

BTW, I think you are right about teaching each other about Torah. After all, we know that we are now the house of G-d, nu? What better place to come to study Torah?

[visionary]

Shalom Yovel,

There is a marvelous teaching on the nature of the covenant that G-d made with man. We know that it is about redemption and salvation, but did you know it came in stages?... Seven stages? So no, this isn't a NEW covenant, but another level of the same covenant. Lemme see if I can find my notes on this one... Maybe better left for another thread...

BTW, I think you are right about teaching each other about Torah. After all, we know that we are now the house of G-d, nu? What better place to come to study Torah?Start a new thread if you have to but I want to know about the seven stages... it sounds interesting... would the seven stages be found in the seven feasts also?

[talmidim]

Start a new thread if you have to but I want to know about the seven stages... it sounds interesting... would the seven stages be found in the seven feasts also?OK, but not tonite. And yeah, funny that you should bring that up. I haven't finished the study yet, but yes. It does.

[Yovel]

Start a new thread if you have to but I want to know about the seven stages... it sounds interesting... would the seven stages be found in the seven feasts also?
Ditto

[Tishri1]

remember when we were studing and listing all the sevens with Tal Vis? I bet it is from that little exersize.....is it Tal? we should bump it:wave:

[talmidim]

remember when we were studing and listing all the sevens with Tal Vis? I bet it is from that little exersize.....is it Tal? we should bump it:wave:Some from that thread, for sure. There is a lot more from other sources too. Remember when we started out, how we were looking for themes? That is what I am talking about. Go ahead and bump it. I am going to be busy for the next couple of days but I should be able to post something soon, k?

Be blessed.

[HaNotsri]

None of you have heard of dispensationalist theology (which is what Talmidim was talking about)? Most major evangelical leaders subscribe to it today. Read up on it, I am not sure you all would entirely agree with it

[visionary]

None of you have heard of dispensationalist theology (which is what Talmidim was talking about)? Most major evangelical leaders subscribe to it today. Read up on it, I am not sure you all would entirely agree with itWe will have to see ....

[Tishri1]

Some from that thread, for sure. There is a lot more from other sources too. Remember when we started out, how we were looking for themes? That is what I am talking about. Go ahead and bump it. I am going to be busy for the next couple of days but I should be able to post something soon, k?

Be blessed.k:wave:

[talmidim]

None of you have heard of dispensationalist theology (which is what Talmidim was talking about)? Most major evangelical leaders subscribe to it today. Read up on it, I am not sure you all would entirely agree with itShalom HaNotsri,

I fear you may be jumping to conclusions. Wikipedia summarizes the four basic tenents of dispensationalist theology in this manner:

A radical distinction between Israel and the church; that is, there are two peoples of God with two different destinies, earthly Israel and the heavenly church.
A radical distinction between the Law and Grace; that is, they are mutually exclusive ideas.
The view that the New Testament church is a parenthesis in God's plan which was not foreseen by the Old Testament.
A distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ; that is, the rapture of the church at Christ's coming "in the air" (1 Thess 4:17) precedes the "official" second coming by seven years of tribulation.
For the record, I do NOT accept 1,2 or 3 and am still researching 4.

[HaNotsri]

I see Talmidim, I apologize, but that's the only sort of theology that I see using such "stages." For the record, I don't think most evangelicals agree with Wikipedia's definition.

I accept a distinction between the Church and Israel (though there are those who are Israel in the Church). I do not accept a distinction between 'Law' and 'Grace.' I sort of agree with number three, considering I don't think the Church went in directions that God had planned (in fact, I know they didn't). Number four I too am still researching.

Again, my apologies, perhaps you can better explain your brand of "dispensationalist" theology? And I mean that out of sincere interest.

[Yovel]

4. A distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ; that is, the rapture of the church at Christ's coming "in the air" (1 Thess 4:17) precedes the "official" second coming by seven years of tribulation.IMHO this is why the Church thinks that they will be raptured and the Jews will be left behind to deal with the AC. I am afraid they will not know what to do when they find out how wrong they are. This belief in 4. would mean that there are three coming of Yeshua not two.

[Tishri1]

IMHO this is why the Church thinks that they will be raptured and the Jews will be left behind to deal with the AC. I am afraid they will not know what to do when they find out how wrong they are. This belief in 4. would mean that there are three coming of Yeshua not two.I wonder about this too and haven't made my mind up but I still see only two comings with the pretrib rapture(not three) only because as I understand thru Jewish teaching the catching away is a gathering or harvest that the Holy Spirit does not Yeshua, the bridegroom....

I seem to remember that we meet him there...not that he comes and gets us and we go there together...

where "there" is I still don't know, I just feel that we will be spared the pain of it somehow....like the Israelites were spared the pain of the plagues (or most of them) and were well taken care of in the wilderness....still the verdict is out though...