An observation & a question

[jgonz]

In some ways I feel like I've been around Messianic Judaism for a long time, and in other ways I feel like a total newbie.

I accepted the L-rd back in January of 1979 (wow, almost 27 years ago...), and within a year was introduced to Messianic Judaism by an on-campus ministry at the University of Cincinnati. I was hooked completely. I've always been one for "roots" (family tree, etc.), so I instantly saw that MJ was the roots of Christianity and just "got it" right away. About 15 years ago, we started keeping Sabbath and celebrating the Feasts. But it wasn't until about 2 years ago that G-d called us into Torah observance and we saw MJ from a whole new angle (which often makes me feel very young in the L-rd all over again. hehe :cool: )

Ok, now we get to my observation. ;) In the last 2 years, I have been shocked to hear the terms "heresy" and "heretic" thrown around with abandon. I hadn't heard those terms since studying the Middle Ages in school, and they conjure up visions of inquisitions and burning at the stake for me. Seriously, I have Never heard those terms in the Church (except in a historical reference).

IMO, (outside of flat out being anti-Torah), if it's not a Salvation issue, then it's a Doctrinal issue. I look at some of the things that people have labeled heresy and I see a doctrinal difference~ like the debate over tongues or the gifts being for today within the Church. There are a huge number of denominations within Christianity, it makes total sense to me that there are/or will be in Messianic Judaism also (since humans are, well, human). But the basics are the same~ salvation being key. Faith in G-d above all else. Torah being the foundation.

Ok, on to my question (finally ;) ). Why do Messianics tend to use these terms so freely and why is it ok to "brand" people or individual beliefs with these terms?

(Please, NO pointing out of specific teachers/beliefs as examples. I have no desire to debate or start something yucky... I'm looking for more general, broad answers or observations here.)

[shmuel]

I accepted the L-rd back in January of 1979 (wow, almost 27 years ago...), and within a year was introduced to Messianic Judaism by an on-campus ministry at the University of Cincinnati. I was hooked completely.

An interesting piece of information; since Cincinnati is one of the places where modern Messianic Judaism developed. Did you attend Beth Messiah? Did you know Michael and Rachel Wolf and their family? Did you know the Adler family?

For those who don't know, Martin Chernoff founded Beth Messiah in 1971 with much help from the Adler family. Also Joel Chernoff formed his group "Lamb" in roughly the same time frame. The Chernoffs are a leading family in MJAA.

[jgonz]

The teaching elder/rabbi of Beth Messiah was the one who was ministering on campus... I can't remember his name now though it's been so long. The names you mentioned in your post sound really familiar though, I might have met those people. Lamb was my favorite group for years and years. :)

Unfortunately, I couldn't continue at Beth Messiah because it was made clear to me (and my 2 other friends who were all Gentile) by the teaching elder/rabbi that we weren't welcome to participate because the ministry was to Jewish people primarily. But, it explained why our Jewish friend who was coming with us was welcomed with open arms and her lifestyle at the time was swept under the rug. When she found out we were sort of told to leave, she got so angry that none of us went back. I had forgotten about that whole incident until a couple of years ago when I started hearing about some Messianic congregations being very segregated.

At any rate, my short lived time at Beth Messiah opened me up to Messianic Judaism and put a love for the music, dance, and the Old Testament into me that I know was the L-rd because it's lasted all this time and eventually helped bring me into Torah observance. :)

[stone]

Do you mean mj's here useing those words?

I haven't noticed anyone useing those words here on this board, i've seen others come in here and say those things to us.

[stone]

wow, i can't believe they turned you away. This is something that the holy spirit and grace cannot do. Anyone who turns away fathers children, are not his children. hey isn't there some scripture that reads this?

[shmuel]

One needs to remember that traditional Judaism campaigns against Messianic Judaism with the phrase "Christianity in a kippah". Messianic Jews, i.e. persons born and raised Jewish but who now believe in Yeshua as Messiah and Saviour, have felt the sting of this barb many times and do what they can to avoid it. Thus, the effort to make the distinction between those born Jewish and gentiles who are co-laborers in the congregation. Here is Beth Messiah's Mission and Vision statement:

Vision Statement

Beth Messiah Synagogue is a manifestation of G-d's present-day regenerating and restoring work in the House of Israel.

Beth Messiah Synagogue is a faith community where Jews embrace and strengthen Jewish identity and heritage as believers in Messiah Yeshua.

At Beth Messiah Synagogue, Jews and Gentiles have been made echad (one) in their embrace of Yeshua as G-d's atoning Messiah who will reign on David's throne.


At Beth Messiah Synagogue, Gentiles embrace Israel, prioritize a Jewish expression of their faith, and serve alongside Jewish believers.



Mission Statment

Beth Messiah Synagogue, envisioning and assisting in the restoration of the people of Israel to their G-d and to their calling, will work this out in the following ways:

Commit to, and grow in, a lifestyle of faith called Biblical Judaism;

Reveal first to the people of Israel, and also to the world, the true identity of the Messiah Yeshua;

Support Israel and the Jewish people in opposing all acts of hatred against them;

Call the brothers and sisters in the Body of Messiah to the proper understanding of G-d's covenant promises to Israel and their restoration. (my emphasis added)



The idea that gentiles were not welcome in the congregation in the late 70's and early 80's is easily dispelled with the mention of the name "Paul Rogers". Paul is a gentile who came to the congregation in the 70's and has stayed and played a major role. Please see this site for Paul's testimony:

http://www.bethmessiah.net/Worship_Team.html

[jgonz]

I don't know why Shmuel... maybe because we were students and couldn't commit to full time ministry? I was so stunned at the time I didn't ask.

[shmuel]

I don't know why Shmuel... maybe because we were students and couldn't commit to full time ministry? I was so stunned at the time I didn't ask.

Perhaps you didn't understand and appreciate that the primary mission of the congregation was to the Jewish community of Cincinnati, rather that a Jewish roots ministry to mainly Christians.

As for the lifestyle of your Jewish friend, remember that the Messianic Jewish movement has many of its roots with Jewish hippies in the late 60's and early 70's. Many Messianic Jews were into the drug culture, the occult, and radical anti-American political movements. The well known Finklestein zoo ministered to (among others) drug dependent kids. A number of prominent Messianic Jewish leaders were heavily involved in drugs, Michael Brown, Sam Nadler, and Johnathan Bernis are names that come to mind. One political radical at University of Cincinnati is now a leading Messianic Jewish rabbi. Another radical from the period is the wife of an assistant congregational leader of a Messianic Jewish synagogue in the mid-west. The lifestyles of these individuals radically changed when they believed in Yeshua as Messiah. Remember the mission and remember the background, and things begin to make sense!

[BarbB]

....
And despite what many people would like to think, Simchas_Torah is right. The VAST majority of the Messianic movement is NOT Jewish...it's composed of gentiles. Though Messianics try getting around that by including people with a Jewish father and gentile mother OR claiming people with traceable Jewish ancestory (generations ago without a consistent matrilineal line) as Jewish. By including these people into their numbers as Messianic Jews or Jews who believe in Jesus, there is a deception going on to the wider Jewish world, because they would not consider this people to be Jews. It wouldn't convince them of the movement being any more Jewish

I know personally that I would hate to be a stumbling block to any Jew who would resent that I consider myself Messianic. Perhaps there needs to be yet one more denomination name - Messianic gentile?

[HaNotsri]

New Lamb,

It's not that you would consider yourself Messianic. It would be those who consider them selves Messianic Jews when indeed they're not Jewish. I know there are plenty in the Messianic community who aren't Jewish, who identify as such. Not only is it dishonest, but it also doesn't help attract people who ARE Jewish to Christ or the movement because of that dishonesty

[jgonz]

Perhaps you didn't understand and appreciate that the primary mission of the congregation was to the Jewish community of Cincinnati, rather that a Jewish roots ministry to mainly Christians.


Shmuel~ I understood very well that the primary mission of Beth Messiah was to the Jewish population. Shoot, I helped minister on campus and got one of my Jewish friends to go to congregation with me! But, naive new born-again Christian me, thought that Scripture was real when it meant that there is no Jew nor Greek, no male nor female, etc. that we're one New creature in Christ. AND, I had never heard of any sort of Hebrew/Jewish roots ministry, so I didn't think that way about Beth Messiah.

I also didn't know about the history of Messianic Judaism at the time. Trying to explain away the rudeness doesn't fly with me now. Back then, though, I was the first to rationalize away anything that didn't square with Scripture... and did for years. Making excuses for people in leadership is a mistake.

[jgonz]

But protestants rarely call anyone a heretic. They are the heretics! :D
Newlamb! ^_^

[Mary_Magdalene]

Shmuel~ Trying to explain away the rudeness doesn't fly with me now. Back then, though, I was the first to rationalize away anything that didn't square with Scripture... and did for years. Making excuses for people in leadership is a mistake.



Amen. :amen:

Are we one in Messiah or not? Im kinda getting tired of both sides nit picking.... Am I a Jew or not? I might be a Jew-my ancestors were involved in the Holocost...came out Catholic over in the US.

Am I gonna spend hours and hours researching and trying to find out if Im a Jew or really a Gentile-NO. WHO CARES ALREADY?????

G-d sees me as His daughter-a believer in Him and His Son.

I also think it is PRIDEFULL to think of yourself as a "better person" in G-d's eyes because you happen to be Jewish. All of us, without Christ, are filthy rags.

[jgonz]

WHO CARES ALREADY?????

:amen: and :amen:

[HaNotsri]

That's true

[jgonz]

Back to my original post... ;)

So I guess no one really knows why it's more common for MJ to call someone a heretic if they have a different theology than the other person does?

I'm going to maintain that it's a Doctrinal difference, and not heresy, to have a differing opinion.

[Mary_Magdalene]

But to parade yourself as Jewish if you're not isn't going to help convince Jews that Messianic Judaism is anymore Jewish if people lie about it you know? I mean part of the reason Messianic Judaism started was because people were interested in learning in the roots of the faith, but also to reach Jewish people with the Messiah

I have always viewed a Messianic Jew as simply a Jew who believes Christ is the Messiah. Period.

I consider myself a Messianic Gentile as I am not a Jew but have a calling toward Torah by G-d.

If some people showed up in a Baptist church claiming they were Baptist but were really Catholic, who cares? What does that have to do with anything? Does that mean that those Baptist that find out should take an attitude, "how DARE they try to pass themselves off as Baptist?" No, if i was in that Baptist church i would think, "wow, that's wierd" and move on with my life. I would not have a negative attitude toward all Catholics due to the dishonesty of some.

Is it wrong to say you are one thing when you are not, of course. People who try to pass themselves off as something they are not should have our prayers and pity for feeling they need to do that to "be someone".

[Tishri1]

If some people showed up in a Baptist church claiming they were Baptist but were really Catholic, who cares? What does that have to do with anything? Does that mean that those Baptist that find out should take an attitude, "how DARE they try to pass themselves off as Baptist?" No, if i was in that Baptist church i would think, "wow, that's wierd" and move on with my life. I would not have a negative attitude toward all Catholics due to the dishonesty of some.

I think you are on to something in this, if the catholic felt more baptist then who cares if he calls himself baptist...

[Mary_Magdalene]

if they didn't, why would they care to protect their Identity so much....I do think the ones I met over the last few months in NCF are prideful and they have made a very bad impression on me

That is why I stay away from NCF. That exact reason. :sigh:

I am more comfortable (if you can believe it) in GT. :scratch:

[Tishri1]

I don't know of anyone over here who claims to be Jewish and who isn't, but even if they did I would understand that they were not Identifying with Talmidah as much as with Yeshua...who could resist that;)

[talmidim]

I have followed this discussion and one thing jumps out at me. The term "Jew" is confused with "Judaism" regularly. In fact, the racial "Jew", the religious "Jew" and the cultural "Jew" are contextually confused throughout this thread. I fear that this has lead to some misunderstandings. And considering what the Jewish people have been through over the centuries, I can completely understand why they are so protective of their heritage, their culture and their religion. That said, this is where I depart with the stated Jewish viewpoint.

The first followers of Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef were almost exclusively Jewish by birth. In the first century the balance between Jew and Gentile began to shift toward Gentile. But the Master laid the groundwork for ALL (except the children of the evil one) to be included, grafted in, adopted under the covenant, etc., as prophesied in scripture.

His word (and the words of the Father) are written from a Hebrew context. I don't care what your genetics say. If you want to understand the words that were FIRST for the Hebrews, you had better start dressing, acting, eating, playing, reading, writing, speaking and thinking like a Hebrew in order to understand His word in the context that they are offered. If I offend by doing what I have been instructed to do - to love the people He said I should love and understand the scriptures He said I should meditate in day and night, then so be it. I will humbly apologize - then keep doing what I am doing.

Also, those persons that choose to be threatened by the inclusion of the gentiles in Judaism (the religion, NOT the race) are the same types that were similarly threatened in the first century. If that is you well, that is not my problem. It is yours. The first followers of Yeshua were included as a sect of Judaism, not a seperate entity.

And finally, by definition a heretic is one that does not accept the majority opinion (especially in religious matters, whether Jewish, Catholic or Protestant). Considering what the Great Rabbi said about the narrow path... well, bring it on. I would rather be considered a "wanna be" and a heretic by ANYONES' standard than His. By His standards, I really am a "wanna be", and happy to be that way.

Baruch HaShem!

[jgonz]

Thank you Talmidim. :)

[HaNotsri]

Wags


You mentioned a Jewish mother before - and that is not a standard that is held by all of the various forms of judasim. Reform accepts as jewish a person whose father is Jewish:

Reform Jews are committed to the principle of inclusion, not exclusion. Since 1978 the Reform Movement has been reaching out to Jews-by-choice and interfaith families, encouraging them to embrace Judaism. Reform Jews consider children to be Jewish if they are the child of a Jewish father or mother, so long as the child is raised as a Jew. (http://rj.org/whatisrj.shtml)



Jgonz


Thank you for posting that Wags. I was just going to ask where in Scripture it says that a person is only a Jew if they have a Jewish mother. If it's not in Scripture, then it's a man-made idea....




Actually there is scriptural support for the Jewishness being transmitted through the mother...

I'll give you the examples and cite the verses tomorrow:

There is a place in the Torah where it speaks about inter-marriage and talks about two cases. One where a Jewish male marries a non-Jewish woman and one where the Jewish woman marries a non-Jewish male. In the second case it furthers its argument against inter-marriage by suggesting that the non-Jewish male spouse would lead the children astray from HaShem. However, the same suggestion is not made for the Jewish man who marries a non-Jewish female.

Secondly, there is a place that speaks of the child of a Jewish woman and Egyptian father being a member of Israel

Thirdly, in the book of Ezra when they return to the Land, the scribe finds that the Jewish men were marrying non-Jewish woman and having children. The men repent and cast away the non-Jewish wives and their children. Why would they cast away the children? It couldn't because the non-Jewish wives were enticing their 'Jewish' children to follow the abominations and idols of their tribe, because the Torah didn't make such a warning. No, the intermarriages were an abomination of the Lord and the non-Jewish wives and non-Jewish children were sent away. If the children were Jews they would have been brought closer to Toras HaShem and raised by their fathers as good Jews.

Also, part of the reason that the halacha says that children to Jewish women are Jewish is because you always know who the mother of the child is. You don't always know who the father is. Especially in the days of the Roman occupation when soldiers would rape Jewish women all the time. Those children were raised as Jews because they were Jews.

In regards to the comment about Reform Judaism...the only reason why they changed it is because they're not a Torah-based movement. There is a high inter-marriage rate among "Reform" Jews because they don't discourage it. So in order to keep their numbers high they decided to change a thousands of years old Jewish law. They don't see the Torah as the word of God. They sanctify gay unions, tend to be pro-choice, they don't keep kosher, they don't keep the Sabbath, they don't follow Torah law and really are a liberal movement all around.

btw its this exact mentality that I was talking about earlier (no offense to anyone here). If you start stripping away the Jewishness and people start claiming to be Jews when they're not, it's just going to add fuels to the flames of Jews rejecting Messianic Judaism as a legitimate Jewish movement (which they will never recognize anyways)

[insaneinthebrain]

Temporarily closed for clean-up. Give me a few minutes...

[insaneinthebrain]

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[jgonz]

you'll notice this thread is a little thinner.

Wow, this thread is a LOT thinner. :eek:

Anyway, Thank you HaNotsri for the explanation. I see where that comes from now.

Edited to add:
I was just doing this week's Torah portion with my youngest kids, and a huge example of the Father's lineage being more important jumped out at me. Joseph married an Egyptian woman and his 2 sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, not only were considered Hebrew, they were the fathers of two of the Tribes of Israel.

[Wags]

As for the lifestyle of your Jewish friend, remember that the Messianic Jewish movement has many of its roots with Jewish hippies in the late 60's and early 70's. Many Messianic Jews were into the drug culture, the occult, and radical anti-American political movements. The well known Finklestein zoo ministered to (among others) drug dependent kids. A number of prominent Messianic Jewish leaders were heavily involved in drugs, Michael Brown, Sam Nadler, and Johnathan Bernis are names that come to mind.

I don't know about the others, but Jonathan Bernis wasn't even old enough to have his Bar Mitzvah until the end of 1972. So while he has founded several messianic minsitries, he was not part of the scene in the 60's & 70's. Nor has he ever been "heavily involved in drugs".

Jonathan is the founding Rabbi of Shema Yisrael Messianic Congregation in Rochester, New York where he served as Senior Messianic Rabbi from 1984 - 1993. He also founded and pastored the Messianic Center of St. Petersburg, Russia where he lived and ministered from 1993-1995. He now travels extensively worldwide, bringing the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles, equipping believers with a deeper knowledge of the Jewish roots of their faith and teaching them how to reach Jewish people with the Good News. http://www.jewishvoice.org/about_jb.php

[Wags]

Actually there is scriptural support for the Jewishness being transmitted through the mother...

And there are plenty of scripture that lists lineage by the fathers side only.

As for mentioning the Reform position - it was simply to point out that not all Jews use the "jewish mother" as the standard for determining ethnic identity (and the law of return is even more broad).

[HaNotsri]

Wags,

Well thank God the State of Israel and its laws don't govern Jewish law or practice...only the Torah does that. Otherwise Judaism would be in a heap of trouble.

There's actually a specific midrash (or a sefer of come sort) that explains that Yosef's wife was a giyores (a convert) and that she accepted the God of Israel

[Wags]

Wags,

Well thank God the State of Israel and its laws don't govern Jewish law or practice...only the Torah does that. Otherwise Judaism would be in a heap of trouble.

There's actually a specific midrash (or a sefer of come sort) that explains that Yosef's wife was a giyores (a convert) and that she accepted the God of Israel

A midrash isn't scripture...

[talmidim]

Most of you know my beliefs about Nephilim. I believe that the practices of not marrying into the other cultures was to keep the bloodline of the Messiah unpolluted and to keep the chosen of the Father from being led astray.

My point is that the practice changed over the centuries. So did the interpretation of His word. Then the Messiah came. Then the genetics didn't matter any more. Just the belief and worship. Oh yeah, He set the record straight about interpreting His word too. It just didn't take - until the Messianics started to view His word from a Hebrew perspective.



Col 3:9 Don't lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings,
Col 3:10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator,
Col 3:11 where there can't be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, freeman; but Messiah is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance;
Col 3:13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, if any man has a complaint against any; even as Messiah forgave you, so you also do.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :D

[Tishri1]

I'm with you:clap::clap:

[visionary]

My point is that the practice changed over the centuries. So did the interpretation of His word. Then the Messiah came. Then the genetics didn't matter any more. Just the belief and worship. Oh yeah, He set the record straight about interpreting His word too. It just didn't take - until the Messianics started to view His word from a Hebrew perspective.

[/list]That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :DWhat about the wheat and the tares?

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

In other words, we can not witch hunt... because we can not tell the difference.

[talmidim]

Shalom Vis!

I think we may be saying the same thing. :thumbsup: What about the wheat and the tares?Early in that post I wrote: "Most of you know my beliefs about Nephilim." In my posts on the Nephilim I examined the Wheat and Tares parable and the Master's explanation to His talmidim. In my understanding of those scriptures, the Tares are the Nephilim.

In other words, we can not witch hunt... because we can not tell the difference.That is my beliefs also. Though some were giants, not all were. I tried to make it clear in my explanation of the "third and fourth generation" scriptures. I could be sitting on a bus with a Nephilim and if they weren't a giant, or the L-rd did not reveal it to me, I could sit next to one and not know it. Actually, I don't think I could tell if one were a giant! Some people are just big...

You are correct. witch-hunting is out of the question! All we can do is love (and all the actions that entails) and pray.

[shmuel]

I don't know about the others, but Jonathan Bernis wasn't even old enough to have his Bar Mitzvah until the end of 1972. So while he has founded several messianic minsitries, he was not part of the scene in the 60's & 70's. Nor has he ever been "heavily involved in drugs".


I was personally present to hear the testimonies of the individuals I named. I heard Jonathan Bernis give his testimony at a Messiah Conference some years ago. For those who do not believe my witness is reliable, I would direct their attention to the following:

http://message.godmail.com/forums/Other/view/?forumcode=o&inc=y&num=4458&viewpage=33

Here is a partial quote:

>By: Jonathan Bernis
>
>The rabbi sat across from me in his overstuffed leather armchair, his
>library of Jewish learning surrounding him like an ancient fortress.
>
>"You are meshumed--one who is spiritually destroyed as a Jew!" he declared.
>"Just as Adolph Hitler sought to destroy our people physically, you, by your
>conversion to Christianity, are helping to destroy our people spiritually."
>
>I had come to the rabbi's office at my parents' request. You see, I had done
>the unthinkable: I had received Jesus as my Messiah. In my naivete, I had
>thought my parents would be happy to hear I had turned away from drugs,
>Eastern mysticism and the occult. They weren't--because I had turned to
>Jesus. (my emphasis added)


I said Messianic Judaism had its roots in the late 60's and early 70's. I did not say that Jonathan Bernis was part of the movement at that time. I mentioned Jonathan with regard to drug use and lifestyle issues.

[visionary]

Shalom Vis!

I think we may be saying the same thing. :thumbsup: Early in that post I wrote: "Most of you know my beliefs about Nephilim." In my posts on the Nephilim I examined the Wheat and Tares parable and the Master's explanation to His talmidim. In my understanding of those scriptures, the Tares are the Nephilim.

That is my beliefs also. Though some were giants, not all were. I tried to make it clear in my explanation of the "third and fourth generation" scriptures. I could be sitting on a bus with a Nephilim and if they weren't a giant, or the L-rd did not reveal it to me, I could sit next to one and not know it. Actually, I don't think I could tell if one were a giant! Some people are just big...

You are correct. witch-hunting is out of the question! All we can do is love (and all the actions that entails) and pray.I think where we departed was at....Then the genetics didn't matter any more. For I am still reserving judgement on whether we should be concerned about the effects of genetic alterings from angel crossbreeding. We know that it was a major problem during Noah's time, and we know that we will have thinks like it was in Noah's time at the end... if it involves a fresh imput of bad angel genetics through crossbreeding again... then I do believe that it still matters.

[talmidim]

I think where we departed was at....Then the genetics didn't matter any more. For I am still reserving judgement on whether we should be concerned about the effects of genetic alterings from angel crossbreeding. We know that it was a major problem during Noah's time, and we know that we will have thinks like it was in Noah's time at the end... if it involves a fresh imput of bad angel genetics through crossbreeding again... then I do believe that it still matters.I meant as far as protecting the bloodline of the Messiah vis a vis Isaiah and, "the Raphaim shall not rise". And you make a good point. But as you said, "How can we tell?" All I can do is pray and set it upon His altar.

[visionary]

True... then again...

Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Those that are consumed with the things that Nephilim was consumed with... lust, drinking blood, blood shed for pleasure... if we find the same things in people today ... is there any indication it is in their blood?

[Wags]

I was personally present to hear the testimonies of the individuals I named. I heard Jonathan Bernis give his testimony at a Messiah Conference some years ago. For those who do not believe my witness is reliable, I would direct their attention to the following:

http://message.godmail.com/forums/Other/view/?forumcode=o&inc=y&num=4458&viewpage=33

Here is a partial quote:

>By: Jonathan Bernis
>
>The rabbi sat across from me in his overstuffed leather armchair, his
>library of Jewish learning surrounding him like an ancient fortress.
>
>"You are meshumed--one who is spiritually destroyed as a Jew!" he declared.
>"Just as Adolph Hitler sought to destroy our people physically, you, by your
>conversion to Christianity, are helping to destroy our people spiritually."
>
>I had come to the rabbi's office at my parents' request. You see, I had done
>the unthinkable: I had received Jesus as my Messiah. In my naivete, I had
>thought my parents would be happy to hear I had turned away from drugs,
>Eastern mysticism and the occult. They weren't--because I had turned to
>Jesus. (my emphasis added)


I said Messianic Judaism had its roots in the late 60's and early 70's. I did not say that Jonathan Bernis was part of the movement at that time. I mentioned Jonathan with regard to drug use and lifestyle issues.

I don't see how you get "heavily involved in drugs" out of "I had turned away from drugs" :scratch: I have heard Jon's testimony too and am well aquainted with his personal history and that of his family's.

[talmidim]

True... then again...

Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Those that are consumed with the things that Nephilim was consumed with... lust, drinking blood, blood shed for pleasure... if we find the same things in people today ... is there any indication it is in their blood?I honestly cannot answer that question. I know that I was delivered from a lot of things by the L-rd. I personally know violent people that have been completely changed by the L-rd. So my answer would be - only He know the hearts and genetics of man.

I see the fulfilment of the prophecy that this generation would be like the generations of Noah. I can't say whether that is because of Nephilim, the demon spirits they leave behind when they physically die or simply because so many of G-ds children are decieved and don't produce good fruit. I have my suspicions of course. But I leave the actual seperating of the tares to His reapers, amien?

Scripture tells us to keep ourselves apart. Those that come over because we show His love to them - great! Otherwise just keep praying and remember...

daaaaa da da da, da da da, da da da You gotta keep `em seperated :cool:

[shmuel]

Here is a link to an article in "The Jewish Voice Today", the publication of the organization of which Jonathan Bernis is Executive Director:

http://www.jewishvoice.org/Magazine/8.php?v=38&i=6

At the botton of column two we read:

..."Mind-expanding" drugs and the supernatural realm became a major pursuit around his college studies and occupied most of his "free" time.

During this search for meaning in his life a friend who was also heavily involved in drugs became a born-again Christian. [The word "also" implies that Jonathan understood he was heavily involved in drugs too.]

And from column three:

... He knew he was a sinner, since he was dealing and using drugs ...

I leave it to the reader to decide whether "heavily involved in drugs" is an accurate description of this behavior.

[jgonz]

What does this have to do with my original question?

[talmidim]

As I recall Jan, you tried to avoid this kind of stuff in the OP...

(Please, NO pointing out of specific teachers/beliefs as examples. I have no desire to debate or start something yucky... I'm looking for more general, broad answers or observations here.) Of course I have no intention of bringing up your great-grandmother's proclivity to wear army boots when she preached. Oops! Did I say that? :D

[jgonz]

Of course I have no intention of bringing up your great-grandmother's proclivity to wear army boots when she preached. Oops! Did I say that? :D

^_^ How did you know that?! :P

And you're right~ this thread went south right from the beginning. :doh: