2000 years of Messianism?

[Victrixa]

Hi dear brothers and sisters in Yeshua :wave:

I read this most excellent article last night:

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Paul%26Fathers.pdf

I have 2 questions following the above article:

1) Have there always been (in 2000 years) Messianic believers and Jews who followed Torah? Anybody have any historical links for that?

2) Ignatius of Antioch: He was a Gentile, however he was a disciple of John who was apostle of Yeshua. If he was instructed by an apostle of Yeshua, how could he have fallen in error like that? Is that possible (well I know it is but he was given instructions by John... wouldn't the intructions John gave to Ignatius be the instructions Yeshua gave to John and the other apostles?)

Yes, I'm confused and troubled. Please help me. I don't know if some of you remember that I was a Catholic revert (had the Catholic icon and defended Catholicism - Victrixa is a Latin and ancient Roman female name) and am also interested into Eastern Orthodoxy... Please clear that for me with history as I do believe that Paganism has entered the Church from the start.

I certainly love Messianism and am excited at what I'm discovering, however, I need clarification on things because the Church was quite Eastern Orthodox/Catholic in style, practice and thought from the start... (but I agree it could all be error as well)

Thank you very much in advance.

Teachable seeker of Yeshua and Truth,

Caroline

[jgonz]

1) Have there always been (in 2000 years) Messianic believers and Jews who followed Torah?

The first "church" was only Jews who had accepted Yeshua (we read about these Believers in Acts, starting with chapter 2). Later on, Gentiles started being added into the Body of Believers. They all were encouraged to attend synagogue, and would have heard Torah taught. So, yes, there have always been Messianic Believers and Jews who followed Torah.

Even staying in the book of Acts, we see that one form of error or another threatened the new Believers from the beginning. IMO, mixing paganism with G-d's word was probably the most prevalent~ and, I daresay, this would have been more common in the areas where there were more Gentile Believers and less Jewish Believers. From the book of Acts, it looks like the more common thing with some Jewish Believers was the "circumcision party" who wanted all Gentiles to convert to Judaism before they could be considered "real" Believers. I have no historical links, unfortunately, sorry. (But I'm sure someone else will help there. :))

One thing I wanted to say~ Confusion is NOT from G-d. The enemy would love to get you all mixed up on what's right and wrong, and take as many Believers into legalism and man's traditions as he can. Don't let him. :hug:

[jgonz]

I certainly love Messianism and am excited at what I'm discovering, however, I need clarification on things because the Church was quite Eastern Orthodox/Catholic in style, practice and thought from the start... (but I agree it could all be error as well)

Why does it matter how early the Eastern Orthodox/Catholic style, practice, and thought started? The fact is that it's error and needs to be avoided... Torah is the foundation~ always has been and always will be. People take truth and twist it into a form~ and have for centuries. That's why there are so many denominations out there...

[Victrixa]

Oh thank you so much jgonz for having taken the time to respond! I certainly appreciate it and need all the help I can get, believe me.

Why does it matter how early the Eastern Orthodox/Catholic style, practice, and thought started? The fact is that it's error and needs to be avoided... Torah is the foundation~ always has been and always will be. People take truth and twist it into a form~ and have for centuries. That's why there are so many denominations out there...

Oh I know, I was just wondering about Ignatius of Antioch who was taught by John the Apostle who was taught by Yeshua and Ignatius's teachings being so.... well in Roman Catholic/Orthodox taste, but then again, even the disciples of the apostles of Yeshua could have erred greatly, even the apostles themselves. In the article, it mentions that even Simon Peter was being a little light in his teaching. How so easy it is to stray...

I was also wondering about Messianic Christians/Jews throughout the centuries if someone knows anything at all? I suppose there have always been, but any one with any historical facts. I know Torah and the Scriptures (Tanach in Hebrew, right?) are the only trustworthy sources for our walk with Yeshua but I was still wondering, ya know?

I'm just wondering why no one else has responded but anyways, I can certainly appreciate your response. You have to know where I'm coming from, phew!!!

One thing I wanted to say~ Confusion is NOT from G-d. The enemy would love to get you all mixed up on what's right and wrong, and take as many Believers into legalism and man's traditions as he can. Don't let him.

I know dear sister. I certainly don't want man-made traditions and Pharisee- like commandments that have nothing to do with G-d's commandments. And yes, the devil can have lots of fun with people like me.... but I'm getting there, by G-d's grace.

I am very very grateful to Abba Father G-d for having revealed to me the beauty of the real pure unalderated antique faith in Messianism. I am in awe and speechless at all that I'm discovering and praise G-d for that! :bow:

Anyways thanks for reading my rants and if anyone else has something to share, that would be appreciated. This is all so new to me, and all so beautiful as well.

Shalom and G-d bless you all. :hug:

[jgonz]

:hug: :hug:

[CovenantRay]

Welcome Victrixa:

I didn't put my thoughts in as I've felt that others could better answer your questions! I appreciate your search and turning away from what appears to be the traditions of men.

Tradition and liturgy become comfortable, but is it within G-d's wishes for us? Most of us agree that the search should be throughout the whole bible. In my limited experience with the "Christian Church", the Old Testament is only used for the "feel good" parts, i.e. e.g.

2 Chronicles 7:14 (NASB)


14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.



Please consider the whole bible and view any teaching, commentary, or even what we [I] say here in light of the Truth contained within the bible.

Remember the exhortation by Paul in the Book of Acts 17:11 (NASB) regarding the Bereans:

11Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Of course, the scriptures referred to were Old Testament scriptures.

Welcome!

CovenantRay :prayer:

[Israeli]

Hi dear brothers and sisters in Yeshua :wave:

I read this most excellent article last night:

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Paul%26Fathers.pdf

I have 2 questions following the above article:

1) Have there always been (in 2000 years) Messianic believers and Jews who followed Torah? Anybody have any historical links for that?

2) Ignatius of Antioch: He was a Gentile, however he was a disciple of John who was apostle of Yeshua. If he was instructed by an apostle of Yeshua, how could he have fallen in error like that? Is that possible (well I know it is but he was given instructions by John... wouldn't the intructions John gave to Ignatius be the instructions Yeshua gave to John and the other apostles?)

Yes, I'm confused and troubled. Please help me. I don't know if some of you remember that I was a Catholic revert (had the Catholic icon and defended Catholicism - Victrixa is a Latin and ancient Roman female name) and am also interested into Eastern Orthodoxy... Please clear that for me with history as I do believe that Paganism has entered the Church from the start.

I certainly love Messianism and am excited at what I'm discovering, however, I need clarification on things because the Church was quite Eastern Orthodox/Catholic in style, practice and thought from the start... (but I agree it could all be error as well)

Thank you very much in advance.

Teachable seeker of Yeshua and Truth,

Caroline



Shalom Caroline,

One of the key requirements to be considered Messianic is for one not to bow down to idols, the other requirements are basically to follow the original unadulterated Gospel of Yeshua.

Some historians estimate as many as 40 million people were murdered over the centuries by the Catholic Church. Back then many people still heard the original pure Gospel. Many of these 40 million people would surely be called Messianic today. Only they were not all speaking English back then and hence were not called Messianic in their day.

The few Messianics who escaped had to remain underground and hence nobody wrote history books about them.

There was however one group that escaped martyredom. The Rabbinical Jews who rejected Yeshua were united under one leader and they made a deal with the pope/emperor to worship on behalf of him instead of worshipping him and he was very honoured and accepted their request, and that put an end to the martyredom of Rabbinical Jews but not Messianic Jews.

There is a verse in the Tenach (Old Testament) that says that there would always be a Levite to offer sacrifice to God, however without The Temple only a Messianic Levite can offer sacrifice spiritually. That means that there has always been Messianic Levites. In an anti-semitic ungodly world, Messianic Levites and other Messianic Jews have always been persecuted and rejected by society.


In Yeshua,
Israel

[Victrixa]

Thank you jgonz, CovenantRay and Israeli. Thank you, thank you, thank you! :hug:

Have a good Shabbat. :clap:

[DiddyDon]

Oh I know, I was just wondering about Ignatius of Antioch who was taught by John the Apostle who was taught by Yeshua and Ignatius's teachings being so.... well in Roman Catholic/Orthodox taste, but then again, even the disciples of the apostles of Yeshua could have erred greatly, even the apostles themselves. In the article, it mentions that even Simon Peter was being a little light in his teaching. How so easy it is to stray...

Ignatius of Antioch
"8.1 Be not seduced by strange doctrines nor by antiquated fables, which are profitless. "8.2 For if even unto this day we live according to the manner of Judaic concepts, we admit that we have not received grace: for the godly prophets lived after Christ Jesus. For this cause also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to the end that they which are disobedient might be fully persuaded that there is one God who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word that proceeded from silence, who in all things was well-pleasing unto Him that sent Him. "9.1 If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer keeping sabbaths Judaically, but in accordance with the Lord's way of life, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny – a mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this cause we endure patiently, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher – "9.2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live apart from Him? Seeing that even the prophets, being His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the dead." — Translated from the original Greek, which was found in Holmes M. Ignatius. Letter to the Magnesians. Holmes, pp. 158.

Wouldn't this mean that Ignatius was not of the Catholic doctrine, seeing he does not describe the Trinity?

[jgonz]

Ignatius of Antioch

I feel so out of the loop here... I have No earthly idea who this is? :scratch:

[Victrixa]

jgonz,

Ignatius of Antioch is an Early Church Father. He would have been a disciple of John the Apostle who himself was instructed by Christ... You see why I can be troubled? ;) (His teachings have Catholic/Orthodox flavour, if you know what I mean. I.e. the Eucharist (Real Presence), Bishops, etc.) But then, he was a Gentile coming from a Pagan background.... But having been instructed by an apostle of Yeshua.... :scratch:

Anybody have theological/Church history training or knowledge amongst the Messianics here?

[Victrixa]

Brothers and sisters in Yeshua,

Actually, I'm not worrying about the above fact. I prefer sticking to the Torah and all of Scripture and Yeshua. :) Many foreign 'things' have entered the Church since the very beginning....

[jgonz]

I've never heard of Ignatius before. Are we sure he was a direct disciple of John? Is there historical evidence to support this? or is this a Catholic teaching?

I'm not trying to be obnoxious~ I have a friend who is the most Catholic person I have EVER met in my entire life... My DH used to be Catholic, and he's blown away by how Catholic she is... She mentions saints he's never heard of before. :doh: Anyway, she claims to be born-again also... It's very confusing. She tried to back me into a corner about John 6 (unless you eat of My flesh and drink of My blood, etc.). I told her that since the New Testament is a continuation/commentary of the Old Testament, and Scripture has to interpret Scripture, and Jesus IS the Torah (all of which she agreed with), there was no way He would tell people (especially Jewish people) to commit cannibalism. She didn't buy it. ANYway, I'm surprised she hasn't brought up this Ignatius person to me... I'd like to be prepared. ;)

[Israeli]

jgonz,

Ignatius of Antioch is an Early Church Father. He would have been a disciple of John the Apostle who himself was instructed by Christ... You see why I can be troubled? ;) (His teachings have Catholic/Orthodox flavour, if you know what I mean. I.e. the Eucharist (Real Presence), Bishops, etc.) But then, he was a Gentile coming from a Pagan background.... But having been instructed by an apostle of Yeshua.... :scratch:

Anybody have theological/Church history training or knowledge amongst the Messianics here?



Shalom,

Judas was one of the original 12 disciples of Yeshua! and look what he did to Yeshua?

and was Ignatius of Antioch not from gentile background?


In Yeshua,
Israel.

[visionary]

Catholics have many theories about this fellow...

"St. Ignatius was the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter." "Ignatius was bishop of Antioch during the reign of the Roman emperor Trajen (98-117), an unyielding persecutor of the Christian Church."

Another article has "Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35 - c. 107)" or another article states "Ignatius of Antioch ? - 110-105 AD Ignatius was bishop of the Church of Antioch in the early 2nd Century." With another article the dates are again "St. Ignatius of Antioch (50-107AD)" which is in the same ball park.

At least they admit that "Almost all of what we know about Ignatius comes from the letters he wrote on his way to be executed in Rome." These do not make gospel and should not for he was just enthusiastic.

[visionary]

I believe he was the foundation for some bad theology.

"Ignatius of Antioch (50-107AD) ... the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which, in His goodness, the Father raised from the dead."

"Ignatius of Antioch . He was apparently anxious to counteract the teachings of two groups: the Judaizers, who did not accept the authority of the New Testament."

"Ignatius of Antioch: “For that which Christ declared to be the highest standard and rule of the Episcopal office, did this man display by his deeds. "

"Saint Ignatius gives us the earliest documentary evidence of primacy of the bishop of Rome."

"Traditions according a unique role of leadership to the Apostle Peter also early emanated from Antioch. In the early second century the bishop and theologian Ignatius of Antioch argued for both the integrity and the unity of the divine and the human in Christ. Ignatius also emphasized the importance of church order and is one of the progenitors of the monarchical episcopate of the early catholic church."

"It was at Antioch that the word "catholic" was coined by Ignatius who was on route to his martyrdom in Rome."

"It was at Antioch that the hierarchy - deacons and presbyters under an episcopos - took shape."