Caleb???

[~Nikki~]

This is kind of a spin off from the Simon Peter thread...

Was Caleb a gentile??? I know that G-d's salvation is on offer to all who will come, Jew or Gentile, and have heard from a couple of people that Caleb and Joshua are a 'type' of this, because Joshua son of Nun was a Hebrew and apparently Caleb wasn't...does anyone know if this is true?:confused:

Thanks...

[talmidim]

This is kind of a spin off from the Simon Peter thread...

Was Caleb a gentile??? I know that G-d's salvation is on offer to all who will come, Jew or Gentile, and have heard from a couple of people that Caleb and Joshua are a 'type' of this, because Joshua son of Nun was a Hebrew and apparently Caleb wasn't...does anyone know if this is true?:confused:

Thanks...


Num 13:2 Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them.
Num 13:3 And Moses by the commandment of the LORD sent them from the wilderness of Paran: all those men were heads of the children of Israel.
Num 13:4 And these were their names: of the tribe of Reuben, Shammua the son of Zaccur.
Num 13:5 Of the tribe of Simeon, Shaphat the son of Hori.
Num 13:6 Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
Num 13:7 Of the tribe of Issachar, Igal the son of Joseph.
Num 13:8 Of the tribe of Ephraim, Oshea the son of Nun.
Num 13:9 Of the tribe of Benjamin, Palti the son of Raphu.
Num 13:10 Of the tribe of Zebulun, Gaddiel the son of Sodi.
Num 13:11 Of the tribe of Joseph, namely, of the tribe of Manasseh, Gaddi the son of Susi.
Num 13:12 Of the tribe of Dan, Ammiel the son of Gemalli.
Num 13:13 Of the tribe of Asher, Sethur the son of Michael.
Num 13:14 Of the tribe of Naphtali, Nahbi the son of Vophsi.
Num 13:15 Of the tribe of Gad, Geuel the son of Machi.
Num 13:16 These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.

[~Nikki~]

Ok...

thanks for that:)

[Yovel]

Kalev was a gentile:

Num 32:11 Surely none of the men who came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore to Avraham, to Yitzchak, and to Ya`akov; because they have not wholly followed me:
Num 32:12 save Kalev the son of Yefunneh the Kenizzi, and Yehoshua the son of Nun; because they have wholly followed the LORD.

I believe because he lived with the tribe of Judah he was considered to be of the tribe of Judah.

[HaNotsri]

How do you get that Kalev wasn't a Jew?

[~Nikki~]

How do you get that Kalev wasn't a Jew?

I think because of this verse which Yovel quoted...

Num 32:12 save Kalev the son of Yefunneh the Kenizzi,

Caleb's father was a Kenizzite...

Maybe what I heard was correct after all...:scratch:
:idea: More research needed on my part...

[HaNotsri]

Doesn't matter what his father was...Jewishness comes through the mother.

[BarbB]

Well I just learned something (dontcha hate that?) when checking back on the NIV for Caleb. I though he and Rahab the prostitute married, but now I can't find that. And the Rahab I though was in Jesus' line was Boaz' mother. Wow. What a mixup!

Can't shake my faith though - :amen:

[talmidim]

Kalev was a gentile:

Num 32:11 Surely none of the men who came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore to Avraham, to Yitzchak, and to Ya`akov; because they have not wholly followed me:
Num 32:12 save Kalev the son of Yefunneh the Kenizzi, and Yehoshua the son of Nun; because they have wholly followed the LORD.

I believe because he lived with the tribe of Judah he was considered to be of the tribe of Judah.Shalom Achi,

I was doing some reading and it occured to me that Kenaz was a popular name in some families. For instance Jarchi says, Kalev was the son-in-law of Kenaz, and Kalev mother bore unto him `Otni'el. Also, there is this:



Jos 15:16 Kalev said, He who strikes Kiryat Sepher, and takes it, to him will I give `Akhsah my daughter as wife.
Jos 15:17 `Otni'el the son of Kenaz, the brother of Kalev, took it: and he gave him `Akhsah his daughter as wife.
So the referrence may not be to a gentile family after all...

[talmidim]

Well I just learned something (dontcha hate that?) when checking back on the NIV for Caleb. I though he and Rahab the prostitute married, but now I can't find that. And the Rahab I though was in Jesus' line was Boaz' mother. Wow. What a mixup!

Can't shake my faith though - :amen:Shabbat Shalom,

According to the genealogy in Mat 1:5, your original understanding is verified... but not with Caleb.



Mat 1:5 Salmon became the father of Bo`az by Rachav. Bo`az became the father of `Oved 1 by Rut. `Oved 1 became the father of Yishai. HNV
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; KJV

[Yovel]

Shalom Achi,

I was doing some reading and it occured to me that Kenaz was a popular name in some families. For instance Jarchi says, Kalev was the son-in-law of Kenaz, and Kalev mother bore unto him `Otni'el. Also, there is this:

So the referrence may not be to a gentile family after all...

Shalom Achi,

I was checking how many times Kenizzite was used in the tanakh. It looks like it was only four times.

Gen 15:18 In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,
Gen 15:20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,
Gen 15:21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.

Num 32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
Num 32:12 save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite, and Joshua the son of Nun; because they have wholly followed Jehovah.

Jos 14:5 As Jehovah commanded Moses, so the children of Israel did; and they divided the land.
Jos 14:6 Then the children of Judah drew nigh unto Joshua in Gilgal: and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said unto him, Thou knowest the thing that Jehovah spake unto Moses the man of God concerning me and concerning thee in Kadesh-barnea.

Jos 14:13 And Joshua blessed him; and he gave Hebron unto Caleb the son of Jephunneh for an inheritance.
Jos 14:14 Therefore Hebron became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite unto this day; because that he wholly followed Jehovah, the God of Israel.

As you can see in Gen15:18-21 the kenizzites were among the nations that Israel was to destroy. In Numbers 32:12 Calev is the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite; also when the land was to be divided Calev is called the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite. The last time he is called Calev the son of Jephunneh the Kennizzite is when Joshua blessed him and gave him his portion of the land. (see Jos 14:13-14)

Especially note that in Joshua 15:13 it states Now to Caleb the son of Jephunneh he gave a portion among the children of Judah, according to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua,... A very strong inference that Caleb is not an Israelite but sojourned amongst them and was faithful, so he was rewarded for his commitment to the God of Israel. This is an illustration of God's commandment to consider the stranger who chooses to dwell with Israel and follow Torah as an Israelite. (see Exod 12:48-49)

Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to Jehovah, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: but no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is home-born, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

As to the name of Calev's brother, Kenaz, I can see that Kenaz was probably named after their great ancestor whose name their people bear. Like Judah, his family group was Judahites, and along came Judah Maccabbee generations later. Just an example.

All Scriptures quoted are from the ASV

[talmidim]

You research is thorough and your points are all valid. But they are by no means conclusive.

I realize that this is a Hittite family name that was passed on through the children of Esau, and there are a number of HINTS that Kalev may have been goy, but this verse still gets me thinking...


Num 13:1 The LORD spoke to Moshe, saying,

Num 13:2 Send you men, that they may spy out the land of Kena`an, which I give to the children of Yisra'el: of every tribe of their fathers shall you send a man, everyone a prince among them.
Num 13:3 Moshe sent them from the wilderness of Paran according to the mitzvah of the LORD: all of them men who were heads of the children of Yisra'el.
And I am thinking, if this guy was a goy, he was a VERY fast worker. In one generation to become a prince and a leader of the children of Yisra'el is unique. Especially considering what we read in Numbers 11, y'know? I still think it could just be a name and not a designation.

[Yovel]

Well I just learned something (dontcha hate that?) when checking back on the NIV for Caleb. I though he and Rahab the prostitute married, but now I can't find that. And the Rahab I though was in Jesus' line was Boaz' mother. Wow. What a mixup!

Can't shake my faith though - :amen:

In response to your comment, it doesn't matter which version you use, but if you look at Matthew 1:5 it says Rahab had married a Jew named Salmon and had Boaz as son. She was in the lineage of Yeshua. So was Ruth, the Moabitess (also listed in verse 5).

As I quoted earlier from Exodus 12:48, when a stranger sojourns with you [Israel] and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. v. 49. One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you. God honors those who have a heart to follow Him, not what race a man's mother is from. In Matthew's gospel (Chap. 1) he gives the lineage of Yeshua through His earthly father, and in Luke 3:23-end it is listed by showing Mary's lineage, yet still by fathers. I think it is oral tradition and not in written Torah that a Jew is a Jew through his mother. If pressed to follow Scripture they would have to concede. There are many converts to Judaism, and they are allowed to convert and treated as native-born. Caleb/Kalev is one of them. He is given his reward from God just as Rahab and Ruth are blessed by marrying into Israel and bearing sons who are in the righteous lineage of King David.

So, I still believe that Kalev/Caleb was a righteous gentile and had converted when he and his family came out of Egypt with Israel. He "moved fast" because he was living in the midst of Judah and stood out because he obeyed wholeheartedly the laws Moses was teaching Israel.

[talmidim]

So, I still believe that Kalev/Caleb was a righteous gentile and had converted when he and his family came out of Egypt with Israel. He "moved fast" because he was living in the midst of Judah and stood out because he obeyed wholeheartedly the laws Moses was teaching Israel.Hi Yovel,
Now correct me if I am mistaken, but the princes and leaders of the tribes were generally speaking, the first-born sons of the leading families of that tribe, correct? Breaking from this tradition was VERY rare. People wouldn't follow them otherwise. You see where I am having dificulty with your analysis.

It seems to me that you are basing everything on the turn of a phrase and a family name while ignoring tradition and context. There are many in the tribes that had names from other families, including goy. This is common in scripture and therefore not a conclusive piece of evidence. On the other hand, the things that I cite are not conclusive either. I just happen to think that the preponderence of circumstance indicates him to be Jew rather than goy. But, I guess this is just one that will have to be answered AFTER....

b'Shalom Achi

[Yovel]

Hi Yovel,
Now correct me if I am mistaken, but the princes and leaders of the tribes were generally speaking, the first-born sons of the leading families of that tribe, correct? Breaking from this tradition was VERY rare. People wouldn't follow them otherwise. You see where I am having dificulty with your analysis.

It seems to me that you are basing everything on the turn of a phrase and a family name while ignoring tradition and context. There are many in the tribes that had names from other families, including goy. This is common in scripture and therefore not a conclusive piece of evidence. On the other hand, the things that I cite are not conclusive either. I just happen to think that the preponderence of circumstance indicates him to be Jew rather than goy. But, I guess this is just one that will have to be answered AFTER....

b'Shalom Achi

Shalom Achi

You are right, we probably won't know for sure until Yeshua comes back and teaches us Torah.

[JBond]

If I may, Kaleb was indeed a convert. And if he was a convert, he would indeed be the prince of his family- since he would be the "firstborn" of his family. As to why a property and counted amoungst the family of Judah? Maybe it was Hur, the Judaean, that converted him; since he is mentioned along the list of leaders.

Just a thought