Simon Peter

[visionary]

Mark 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

Is this Simon Peter? If so he wasn't even a jew.

[~Nikki~]

Mark 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

Is this Simon Peter? If so he wasn't even a jew.

Are there two Simons???:confused:

v15 says "and Simon He surnamed Peter",
then lists the other 11 as well, which includes Simon the Canaanite...

[visionary]

You are right... there are two... my bad.

[talmidim]

Mark 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

Is this Simon Peter? If so he wasn't even a jew.Vis,
That might be one of those cases where the name "Canaanite" indicated where he grew up rather than a family linage. I'm pretty sure they were all of Jewish heritage. He did come for the Jews exclusively - first.

[stone]

It's interesting the see that Mark only speaks where this Simon is from, the others names are just mentioned. There could be some meaning behind this. It would be logical to see that perhaps he was not jewish as the others, the reason for mentioning that he was a caananite.

[stone]

and it could just be to make a distinction between the 2 Simons.

[HaNotsri]

He could have been a ger tsedek

[talmidim]

He could have been a ger tsedekI don't know...

It seems that Yeshua came to the Jews first. He made a practice of avoiding the gentiles and forbid His disciples to carry the "good news" to them until after His sacrifice. I remember that under extraordinary circumstances He would minister to those gentiles of extraordinary faith. But I do not see any support in scripture for any of His disciples being gentile. At least not yet...

[HaNotsri]

A ger tsedek is not a gentile. He is a convert to Judaism and is a Jew.

[Yusuphhai]

In Chinese version, Cananaean was translated as a Jewish party who took against Roman government and try to found a free Israeli kingdom. So I think Simon the Cananaean was another one, not Simon Peter.

[Athanasian Creed]

Simon the Canaanite. He is called by Luke 6:15, Simon Zelotes. He is thus particularly designated to distinguish him from Simon Peter. ;)

Ray :wave:

[Ivy]

A ger tsedek is not a gentile. He is a convert to Judaism and is a Jew.

I thought ger tsedek meant "righteous gentile," such as Cornelius in Acts 10:1-2, who wasn't a convert to Judaism.

[HaNotsri]

A ger tsedek is a convert to Judaism and is a Jew. A ger toshav is a "stranger in the gate," which is a righteous gentile that follows the laws that allows non-Jew to live in the Land of Israel (essentially, the seven commandments of Noah)

[Ivy]

A ger tsedek is a convert to Judaism and is a Jew. A ger toshav is a "stranger in the gate," which is a righteous gentile that follows the laws that allows non-Jew to live in the Land of Israel (essentially, the seven commandments of Noah)

That's an interesting distinction....a ger toshav must be what's also called a "sojourner," then. It sounds like Cornelius would fall more under that classification.

I wonder how Ruth the Moabitess would be classified, ger tsedek or ger toshav.

How are the words "ger tsedek" and "ger toshav," literally translated word-for-word? Ger tsedek is <something> "righteous", for instance

[HaNotsri]

Ivy,

Well for the past couple of millenia the term "ger" has meant a convert. It literally means sojourner (or stranger). But when used nowadays (and in Rabbinic literature) it refers to a convert. Ruth is considered a giyores (feminine form of ger), a full-fledged convert to Judaism, a Jew (as are Abraham and Sarah, the converts of Haran, Joseph's wife, the mixed-multitude or "erev rav," Jethro, Rahab, and Obadiah the Prophet) On Shavuos the book of Ruth is read because all converts to Judaism have to go through essentially the same process that every Jew went through at Sinai when the Torah was given. Some terms surrounding the word ger:

gerus: conversion process
ger: male convert
giyores: female convert
m'giyurred: to be converted

A ger is a Jew by any standards. He is no different than one who is born Jewish. There are many midrashim and other forms of rabbinic literature that speak of praises for gerim. There are also a few that slight the gerim as well ;) But in general, those who complete halachic (according to Jewish law...Orthodox) conversions are considered Jewish in every way imaginable.

Why does the term ger mean both a convert or a stranger? Because in the Torah itself it speaks of two different "gerim." It speaks of one ger who is to keep the same Torah in the same way that a Jew does. He must be circumcised, eat the Pesach korban, etc. But the Torah also notes a situation where a ger can eat a specific food that a Jew should not. If the Torah says one ger should keep the same Torah, but also says a ger can eat something that a Jew cannot...well the Torah cannot contradict itself. One ger is a full-fledged convert to Judaism, a Jew. The other is a nachri (stranger) or a ger toshav (lit. resident sojourner or stranger), a non-Jew who agrees to live under a certain set conditions while living in Israel. One is only a ger toshav if he specifically wants to live among Jews or in Israel. Otherwise, he is merely a righteous gentile while continually following the seven commandments. Those conditions of course are following the 7 commandments of Noach and too not harm a Jew.

[Ivy]

Ivy,

Well for the past couple of millenia the term "ger" has meant a convert. It literally means sojourner (or stranger). But when used nowadays (and in Rabbinic literature) it refers to a convert. Ruth is considered a giyores (feminine form of ger), a full-fledged convert to Judaism, a Jew (as are Abraham and Sarah, the converts of Haran, Joseph's wife, the mixed-multitude or "erev rav," Jethro, Rahab, and Obadiah the Prophet) On Shavuos the book of Ruth is read because all converts to Judaism have to go through essentially the same process that every Jew went through at Sinai when the Torah was given. Some terms surrounding the word ger:

gerus: conversion process
ger: male convert
giyores: female convert
m'giyurred: to be converted

A ger is a Jew by any standards. He is no different than one who is born Jewish. There are many midrashim and other forms of rabbinic literature that speak of praises for gerim. There are also a few that slight the gerim as well ;) But in general, those who complete halachic (according to Jewish law...Orthodox) conversions are considered Jewish in every way imaginable.

Why does the term ger mean both a convert or a stranger? Because in the Torah itself it speaks of two different "gerim." It speaks of one ger who is to keep the same Torah in the same way that a Jew does. He must be circumcised, eat the Pesach korban, etc. But the Torah also notes a situation where a ger can eat a specific food that a Jew should not. If the Torah says one ger should keep the same Torah, but also says a ger can eat something that a Jew cannot...well the Torah cannot contradict itself. One ger is a full-fledged convert to Judaism, a Jew. The other is a nachri (stranger) or a ger toshav (lit. resident sojourner or stranger), a non-Jew who agrees to live under a certain set conditions while living in Israel. One is only a ger toshav if he specifically wants to live among Jews or in Israel. Otherwise, he is merely a righteous gentile while continually following the seven commandments. Those conditions of course are following the 7 commandments of Noach and too not harm a Jew.

I'm basically following you--except where you say "a ger is a Jew by any standards" and then later you say "a ger toshav...a non-Jew who agrees to live under a certain set conditions". First it sounds like it's a Jew, then it sounds like it's not a Jew.

What process did the Israelites at Sinai go through? How specifically is that defined? How did Ruth later go through the same process?

[Tishri1]

I don't know...

It seems that Yeshua came to the Jews first. He made a practice of avoiding the gentiles and forbid His disciples to carry the "good news" to them until after His sacrifice. I remember that under extraordinary circumstances He would minister to those gentiles of extraordinary faith. But I do not see any support in scripture for any of His disciples being gentile. At least not yet...I think that he wanted them to see the work of the Ruach in the lives of the gentiles to prove they didn't need any conversion laws to get saved and be grafted in, and thats why he seemed to ignore them while he was alive...notice how every time he did talk about them he said thay had GREAT faith...no works required for salvation and a place in the sheepfold:clap:

[HaNotsri]

I'm basically following you--except where you say "a ger is a Jew by any standards" and then later you say "a ger toshav...a non-Jew who agrees to live under a certain set conditions". First it sounds like it's a Jew, then it sounds like it's not a Jew.

Ivy,

Because there are two types of gerim. One that is a Jew and one that isn't a Jew (as was explained above). A ger tsedek (righteous sojourner or stranger) is a convert to Judaism, a full-fledged Jew. He has committed himself (or herself) to taking on the entire yoke of the Torah in all that that entails. A ger toshav is a non-Jew wishing to live in Israel or among a community of Jews. He doesn't have to follow the entire Torah, but must respect the community that he lives in an needs to be convicted in following the seven laws of Noah.

During the events that lead up to the giving of the Torah, the entire nation of Israel went through a "national conversion" if you will. God commanded that all the males be circumcised (as they had not practiced that for generations), they also slaughtered the Pesach korban, and during the few days leading up to it at Mount Sinai, they had to sanctify themselves (purify themselves in water) wash their clothes.

During the days of the Temple, a man who wanted to become a Jew had to be circumcised, bring a sacrifice to the Temple, and immerse themselves in a mikveh. It's the same practice that the Jews did leading up the revelation at Sinai. Nowadays when one converts he needs to only be circumcised and be immersed in a mikveh. A woman just needs to immerse herself.

Also in both situations (the revelation at Sinai AND modern day converts) they took on the yoke of the Torah, essentially saying "Everything that the LORD has spoken we will do."

[Ivy]

Ivy,

Because there are two types of gerim. One that is a Jew and one that isn't a Jew (as was explained above). A ger tsedek (righteous sojourner or stranger) is a convert to Judaism, a full-fledged Jew. He has committed himself (or herself) to taking on the entire yoke of the Torah in all that that entails. A ger toshav is a non-Jew wishing to live in Israel or among a community of Jews. He doesn't have to follow the entire Torah, but must respect the community that he lives in an needs to be convicted in following the seven laws of Noah.

During the events that lead up to the giving of the Torah, the entire nation of Israel went through a "national conversion" if you will. God commanded that all the males be circumcised (as they had not practiced that for generations), they also slaughtered the Pesach korban, and during the few days leading up to it at Mount Sinai, they had to sanctify themselves (purify themselves in water) wash their clothes.

During the days of the Temple, a man who wanted to become a Jew had to be circumcised, bring a sacrifice to the Temple, and immerse themselves in a mikveh. It's the same practice that the Jews did leading up the revelation at Sinai. Nowadays when one converts he needs to only be circumcised and be immersed in a mikveh. A woman just needs to immerse herself.

Also in both situations (the revelation at Sinai AND modern day converts) they took on the yoke of the Torah, essentially saying "Everything that the LORD has spoken we will do."

Got it. It sounded like there was a contradiction there, but there wasn't.

The status of the ger toshav makes sense--if you're living in a country, you'd obey the law of the land.

It sounds like the females get off a little easier than the males when it comes to conversion....but they probably make it up later when it comes time for preparing the house for Pesach :D

Now I thought the conversion process was more involved nowadays than just the circumscision and the mikveh....doesn't the person have to study for a year or so, and also isn't there a point where three rabbis try to talk them out of converting, as part of the conversion process?

[HaNotsri]

Well here's how it is supposed to go...you're supposed to be denied three times by a rabbi before you're allowed to begin study. The three times is traditional as Ruth was discouraged three times by Naomi from coming with her back to Israel. Rabbis are supposed to make it hard for someone to convert. They discourage left and right. They "miss" your calls and "lose" your messages. Because Jews are not a missionary people (though in ancient days they were). There are already enough non-observant Jewish people in the world and living the life as a sincere observant Jews is hard. So once you actually do convert, you are completely Jewish and are under the mandate of the Torah and are obligated to follow it. If you do manage to convince a rabbi of your sincerity, he will begin studying with you or appoint someone to. During this study period he may continue to discourage you. The period of study varies based on your prior knowledge, level of observance, living within walking distance of a synagogue, level of indepence (in case you're younger), and other factors. When I had been studying (on my own and with various rabbis) for almost three years. I was a couple of months shy of milah and mikveh before I decided to take a step back and re-examine my faith. When your rabbi decides you are ready he'll take you before a court of three rabbis (or observant Jewish males) called a Beis Din Tsedek. They will ask you various questions about Jewish practice and law. If you pass their test you are almost at the end. If you're a male, you would be circumcised if you haven't been. If you already are circumcised a pin prick of blood from the penis would be taken as a symbolic circumcision called a hatafas dam bris. Once you've healed from that (or not if you got the second option) you immerse yourself in the mikveh. When you come out, you are full-fledged Jew. For a woman she goes through the same thing EXCEPT for circumcision of course. Because there is no Temple today, you cannot bring a sacrifice. But there is a tradition that holds after techias hamesim (the resurrection of the dead), all who are converts must bring a korban (sacrifice) to the Holy Temple.

There's a little info on the process...

[DiddyDon]

Hello (I'm trying to get 100 posts)

[Tishri1]

what happens then?

[DiddyDon]

I get to paste links and such.

[Tishri1]

I was a couple of months shy of milah and mikveh before I decided to take a step back and re-examine my faith. Can I ask what you were going through as this was unfolding in your life? If you don't care to talk about it I understand...:wave:

[HaNotsri]

Sure will...I'll save that until tomorrow. I believe I also posted my testimony up here as well in the testimonies section

[Ivy]

Rabbis are supposed to make it hard for someone to convert. They discourage left and right. They "miss" your calls and "lose" your messages. Because Jews are not a missionary people (though in ancient days they were). There are already enough non-observant Jewish people in the world and living the life as a sincere observant Jews is hard.
There's a little info on the process...

I've gotten the impression that some Christians misunderstand this a little, they possibly think something like, "these people don't want to share their good stuff, they don't care about our spiritual welfare, or whether we go to heaven when we die" etc.

But in some ways, it's a prudent procedure. As you say, living as an observant Jew is not that easy, and I think this procedure encourages someone to really "count the cost," as Yeshua says. In most cases, God isn't calling someone to change their entire identity ( takes a huge expenditure of energy which could probably be better used to forward God's Kingdom on earth)--he would have had them born into that identity in the first place. One of the exceptions, of course, is marrying into the Jewish faith.

One thing I found interesting is that apparently Jews don't consider Judaism a "salvation issue," rather that "All the righteous have a share in the world to come."

[Tishri1]

but some Jews do consider having Jewish blood and faith in Yeshua a Damnable thing (spoken to me by a few Jews this past year)

So Salvation isn't an issue for those who don't believe....only for those who believe in Yeshua and have Jewish blood ....they are the ones who need to worry about their eternal security...:cool:

[stone]

Do they have scripture that they are baseing this on?

[Tishri1]

Do they have scripture that they are baseing this on?yes! and no:sorry:

well if I was a christian gentile then what ever... BUT if I am a Christian with Jewish blood then I am in trouble for believing in the "Man-God" and an insult to all Jews if I am a Messianic with Jewish Blood...That's what I got....not any scripture but I know they ones they give anyway....No one can say they are faithful to ABBA if they follow another God and Yeshua is a "MANGOD"...I don't believe that is what He is but that is the way they see how Christian's and Messianic's believe...at least now, maybe they will change someday:pray:

[Yovel]

There are two Judas' in Luke.

Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called his disciples; and he chose from them twelve, whom also he named apostles:
Luk 6:14 Simon, whom he also named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip and Bartholomew,
Luk 6:15 and Matthew and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot,
Luk 6:16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor;

Could Judas the son of James be Thaddaeus, mentioned in Mark?

Mar 3:18 and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean.

[Ivy]

but some Jews do consider having Jewish blood and faith in Yeshua a Damnable thing (spoken to me by a few Jews this past year)

So Salvation isn't an issue for those who don't believe....only for those who believe in Yeshua and have Jewish blood ....they are the ones who need to worry about their eternal security...:cool:

Is it really considered damnable or just that that person is no longer regarded as Jewish? I haven't gotten the impression that not being Jewish is regarded as damnable, like down to sh'ol you go, though I could be wrong. I know it can be highly distressing & upsetting to the family when their child takes up with Yeshua, though.

[GraceInHim]

Here is something interesting.. the first one to call Yeshua the son of G-d and also the King of Israel was Nathanael..

John 1

Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael

43The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."


44Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

46"Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?" Nathanael asked.
"Come and see," said Philip.

47When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."

48"How do you know me?" Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you."

49Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel." 50Jesus said, "You believe[k] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." 51He then added, "I tell you[l] the truth, you[m] shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

[visionary]

The faith you have the more you get to see. May we all have the faith of Nathanael, and get to see what Jacob saw, and what Yeshua said Nathanael gets to see.

[simchat_torah]

When your rabbi decides you are ready he'll take you before a court of three rabbis (or observant Jewish males) called a Beis Din Tsedek. They will ask you various questions about Jewish practice and law. If you pass their test you are almost at the end. If you're a male, you would be circumcised if you haven't been. If you already are circumcised a pin prick of blood from the penis would be taken as a symbolic circumcision called a hatafas dam bris. Once you've healed from that (or not if you got the second option) you immerse yourself in the mikveh. When you come out, you are full-fledged Jew. For a woman she goes through the same thing EXCEPT for circumcision of course. Because there is no Temple today, you cannot bring a sacrifice. But there is a tradition that holds after techias hamesim (the resurrection of the dead), all who are converts must bring a korban (sacrifice) to the Holy Temple.

I went through all of this myself ;) The typical "Korban" today is a gift to the synagogue, or if your temple's membership fee is rather substantial (as ours is), then you will simply pay the fee (and often some will give a gift the the Rabbi for all of the time you spent in study under him).

-Yafet

[simchat_torah]

Is it really considered damnable or just that that person is no longer regarded as Jewish? I haven't gotten the impression that not being Jewish is regarded as damnable, like down to sh'ol you go, though I could be wrong. I know it can be highly distressing & upsetting to the family when their child takes up with Yeshua, though.Well, Judaism doesn't exactly believe in hell per se... so excommunicated is about as bad as it gets ;)

[Tishri1]

Here is something interesting.. the first one to call Yeshua the son of G-d and also the King of Israel was Nathanael..

John 1

Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael

43The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."


44Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

46"Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?" Nathanael asked.
"Come and see," said Philip.

47When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."

48"How do you know me?" Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you."

49Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel." 50Jesus said, "You believe[k] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." 51He then added, "I tell you[l] the truth, you[m] shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."calling Nathaneael a true Israelite and saying he saw him under the fig tree was an idiom for saying Yeshua saw him in Paradise.....he was telling him he saw him in Heaven...just a side note:clap:

[Tishri1]

Well, Judaism doesn't exactly believe in hell per se... so excommunicated is about as bad as it gets ;)one said he was seriously worried for my soul:sigh:

[GraceInHim]

calling Nathaneael a true Israelite and saying he saw him under the fig tree was an idiom for saying Yeshua saw him in Paradise.....he was telling him he saw him in Heaven...just a side note:clap:

:clap: and Nathaneale, Jesus told him he had nothing False.... :thumbsup:

[Jesus Is Real]

:clap: and Nathaneale, Jesus told him he had nothing False.... :thumbsup:

Yo! :thumbsup:

[Ivy]

Well, Judaism doesn't exactly believe in hell per se... so excommunicated is about as bad as it gets ;)

But what about sheol and gehenna and all that?

[mistergarner1]

I believe he was a Gentile. [EDIT]Though it is probably only wishful thinking on my behalf, it is probably more likely that it was a mistranslation in the KJV. Contrary to many opinions, I believe that Christ did minister to Gentiles.
1. Roman Official
2. Two Demoniacs
3. Lady at the well
4. Woman with sick daughter
5. Centurion
6. The feeding of 4,000. (An article on Zola Levitt's website argues against this, but he bases this on the word "border" vs. "region". The real arguement is on the word 'midst', which means middle")

He also said, 'G-d can raise up children of Abraham from these stones"
He also said, 'many will come from the east and the west'

The book of Matthew says that many followed him from Decapolis and Syria. The point is, that every Gentile who asked him for something recieved it. Those who were given the greated compliments, were gentiles (Oh, how great is your faith!)
Jews are, and have always been G-d's chosen people. But why did he choose them? The answer to be a 'light unto all nations'.
In the first century, Gentiles in the surrounding country side did vulgar things. They worshipped idols, had orgies, sacrificed their children, etc. Jesus ministry did not make an attempt to exclude anyone.
A truly good person, with a conscience, would have turned to Monotheism.
The only culture that possessed Monotheism were Jews. So good people would have converted anyway, a long time before Jesus.
The reason that he told his disciples not to go into the way of the Gentiles is because that was something he was going to do himself, in his own time.
(notice in the New Testament how they later enter the town of Samaria).
I think Simon the Zealot/Canaanite was a convert.

[visionary]

I believe he was a Gentile. Contrary to many opinions, I believe that Christ did minister to Gentiles.
1. Roman Official
2. Two Demoniacs
3. Lady at the well
4. Woman with sick daughter
5. Centurion
6. The feeding of 4,000. (An article on Zola Levitt's website argues against this, but he bases this on the word "border" vs. "region". The real arguement is on the word 'midst', which means middle")

He also said, 'G-d can raise up children of Abraham from these stones"
He also said, 'many will come from the east and the west'

The book of Matthew says that many followed him from Decapolis and Syria. The point is, that every Gentile who asked him for something recieved it. Those who were given the greated compliments, were gentiles (Oh, how great is your faith!)
Jews are, and have always been G-d's chosen people. But why did he choose them? The answer to be a 'light unto all nations'.
In the first century, Gentiles in the surrounding country side did vulgar things. They worshipped idols, had orgies, sacrificed their children, etc. Jesus ministry did not make an attempt to exclude anyone.
A truly good person, with a conscience, would have turned to Monotheism.
The only culture that possessed Monotheism were Jews. So good people would have converted anyway, a long time before Jesus.
The reason that he told his disciples not to go into the way of the Gentiles is because that was something he was going to do himself, in his own time.
(notice in the New Testament how they later enter the town of Samaria).
I think Simon the Zealot/Canaanite was a convert.What an entrance :clap: Welcome to our little section of the forum... we would love a testimony from you in our intro section.. http://www.christianforums.com/t105992-mini-introductions-please-.html