Jesus and Judaism

[Snowy]

Why is it that Jews don't believe Jesus is the son of God? And who do you believe Jesus is?

[jgonz]

I'm not Jewish, but from what I understand most Jews consider Jesus/Yeshua to be a prophet. As to why they don't believe He is the Messiah, I can't really answer that one.

[Talmidah]

I'm not Jewish, but from what I understand most Jews consider Jesus/Yeshua to be a prophet. As to why they don't believe He is the Messiah, I can't really answer that one.

It is the Muslims who consider him to have been a prophet. He didn't meet the requirements to be the messiah.


EDIT: I did not mean to debate or argue in this thread. I just wanted to answer the OP and clarify about the prophet view.

[DiddyDon]

I have just discovered the Jewish New Testament and am anxious to purchase. I am an Apostolic Christian. I believe God is One, and Yahshua (Jesus) is a manifestation of God.
I have a question about the Sabbath. Has anyone of the Messianic Jewish faith studied
Romans 14:5-6:



5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Also, does the Torah point toward a better way? Giving us 7 days of spiritual rest?

Passage Hebrews 8:7-8:

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

How do these passages read in the Hebrew Bible?

[visionary]

I have just discovered the Jewish New Testament and am anxious to purchase. I am an Apostolic Christian. I believe God is One, and Yahshua (Jesus) is a manifestation of God.
I have a question about the Sabbath. Has anyone of the Messianic Jewish faith studied
Romans 14:5-6:



5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Also, does the Torah point toward a better way? Giving us 7 days of spiritual rest?
continue on down in Romans 14...10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

what Paul is getting at is if we judge our fellow man's spiritual walk, we need to see it from God's view point. Just because a brother is way behind and has not seen the light does not mean that he isn't coming. What we may think as a weakness maybe the very thing God can use to strength that person's faith. Everyone needs a different kind of spiritual healing depending where they have been. God will lead them and we are not to judge.

This has no direct bearing on the hard truths of what God ultimately wants us all to know and live in a holy lifestyle. Using these verses to wave away the ultimate goal of God in our walk would be foolish. We can not walk this in deed until we walk this in the spirit of the truth. Only with God can the Torah be alive in perfection.

[HaNotsri]

jgonz,

The wider Jewish world doesn't consider Jesus to be anything more than a heretic (if they believe he existed at all). There is actually a debate as to whether or not the "Yeshu" mentioned in the Gemara is Jesus or not (and he's not spoken of too kindly). Personally, I don't believe it is Him being described though. He is not a prophet in their eyes. In fact it would be considered heretical in traditional Jewish thought for anyone to consider Him a prophet. At the time He lived, the majority of the Jewish world was not living in the Land of Israel. According to traditional thought, prophecy can only occur when the majority of the Jewish people are in their land. Talmidah is right, it's the Moslems who believe that.

Michael

[christinepro]

This link is great!
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/5_8/twopictures

[jgonz]

jgonz,

The wider Jewish world doesn't consider Jesus to be anything more than a heretic (if they believe he existed at all). There is actually a debate as to whether or not the "Yeshu" mentioned in the Gemara is Jesus or not (and he's not spoken of too kindly). Personally, I don't believe it is Him being described though. He is not a prophet in their eyes. In fact it would be considered heretical in traditional Jewish thought for anyone to consider Him a prophet. At the time He lived, the majority of the Jewish world was not living in the Land of Israel. According to traditional thought, prophecy can only occur when the majority of the Jewish people are in their land. Talmidah is right, it's the Moslems who believe that.

Michael

Ah. Thanks for the clarification! :)

[Tishri1]

I have just discovered the Jewish New Testament and am anxious to purchase. I am an Apostolic Christian. I believe God is One, and Yahshua (Jesus) is a manifestation of God.
I have a question about the Sabbath. Has anyone of the Messianic Jewish faith studied


5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. Romans 14:5-6: this one is in regards to fasting days, different groups had different ways to live out the Torah and occationally these weekly fast days would come into debate...It is definately NOT talking about the Sabbath or the Festivals here.:wave:

Also, does the Torah point toward a better way? Giving us 7 days of spiritual rest? not sure what you are asking here but as I have been resting on the Sabbath for 9 years I can say for sure that it is a blessing:wave:

Passage Hebrews 8:7-8:

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

How do these passages read in the Hebrew Bible?This one is tricky as the context of the chapter is the priesthood...so try this :read the whole chapter and replace all the words "covenent" that are in italics with the word "priesthood" and you will see a totally different picture which fits better biblically and historically...

Hebrews 8:1-7 NKJ Hebrews 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant ("Priesthood")had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second("Priesthood").

[Tishri1]

Why is it that Jews don't believe Jesus is the son of God? And who do you believe Jesus is?I can't speak for the Jews but as I understand they unfortunately are not allowed to speak for themselves, so I will try to give my opinion only....I believe that they don't accept Yeshua as Messiah based on the fact that We say that he is God when the Shema says that God is only one(meaning don't worship any other).How to get around that problem is very hard, but I believe that somehow someday ABBA will show us how....

[philmwri]

Here are some reqirements for the Jewish Messiah!
Textual requirements
Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah and what he will do is located within the book of Isaiah, although it is mentioned in other prophets as well.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
He will swallow up death forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations (Isaiah 56:3-7)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together, as it is written (Book of Zephaniah|Zephaniah]] 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

[HaNotsri]

Funny Phil, I believe all that stuff! Hey I believe in the Bible!

[philmwri]

Here are some reqirements for the Jewish Messiah!
Textual requirements
Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah and what he will do is located within the book of Isaiah, although it is mentioned in other prophets as well.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
He will swallow up death forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations (Isaiah 56:3-7)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together, as it is written (Book of Zephaniah|Zephaniah]] 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
If you read the talmud it also explains some things.
Views of Maimonides

The predominant Jewish understanding of moshiach ("the messiah") is based on the writings of Maimonides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides), (the Rambam). His views on the messiah are discussed in his Mishneh Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishneh_Torah), his 14 volume compendium of Jewish law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha), in the section Hilkhot Melakhim Umilchamoteihem, chapter 11. Maimonides writes:

The anointed King (HaMelekh HaMoshiach) is destined to stand up and restore the Davidic Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line) to its antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He will build the Temple in Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem) and gather the strayed ones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes) of Israel together. All laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot) will return in his days as they were before: Sacrificial offerings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban) are offered and the Sabbatical years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatical_year_%28Bible%29) and Jubilees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_%28Biblical%29) are kept, according to all its precepts that are mentioned in the Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah). Whoever does not believe in him, or whoever does not wait for his coming, not only does he defy the other prophets, but also the Torah and our Rabbi Moses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses). For the Torah testifies about him, thus: "And the Lord Your God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism) will return your returned ones and will show you mercy and will return and gather you... If your strayed one shall be at the edge of Heaven... And He shall bring you" etc.(Deuteronomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteronomy) 30:3-5). These words that are explicitly stated in the Torah, encompass and include all the words spoken by all the prophets. In the section of Torah referring to Bala'am (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaam), too, it is stated, and there he prophesied about the two anointed ones: The first anointed one is David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David), who saved Israel from all their oppressors; and the last anointed one will stand up from among his descendants and saves Israel in the end. This is what he says (Numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Numbers) 24:17-18): "I see him but not now" - this is David; "I behold him but not near" - this is the Anointed King. "A star has shot forth from Jacob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob)" - this is David; "And a brand will rise up from Israel" - this is the Anointed King. "And he will smash the edges of Moab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moab)" - This is David, as it states: "...And he struck Moab and measured them by rope" (II Samuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Samuel) 8:2); "And he will uproot all Children of Seth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth)" - this is the Anointed King, of whom it is stated: "And his reign shall be from sea to sea" (Zechariah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Zechariah) 9:10). "And Edom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edom) shall be possessed" - this is David, thus: "And Edom became David's as slaves etc." (II Samuel 8:6); "And Se'ir shall be possessed by its enemy" - this is the Anointed King, thus: "And saviors shall go up Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism)'s" (Obadiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Obadiah) 1:21). And by the Towns of Refuge it states: "And if the Lord your God will widen up your territory... you shall add on for you another three towns" etc. (Deuteronomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteronomy) 19:8-9). Now this thing never happened; and the Holy One does not command in vain. But as for the words of the prophets, this matter needs no proof, as all their books are full with this issue. Do not imagine that the anointed King must perform miracles and signs and create new things in the world or resurrect the dead and so on. The matter is not so: For Rabbi Akiva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi_Akiva) was a great scholar of the sages of the Mishnah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishnah), and he was the assistant-warrior of the king Bar Kokhba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba), and claimed that he was the anointed king. He and all the Sages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannaim) of his generation deemed him the anointed king, until he was killed by sins; only since he was killed, they knew that he was not. The Sages asked him neither a miracle nor a sign... And if a king shall stand up from among the House of David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line), studying Torah and indulging in commandments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot) like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud), and he will coerce all Israel to follow it and to strengthen its weak points, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded {and won all nations surrounding him. Old prints and mss.} and built a Holy Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem) in its proper place and gathered the strayed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder (Zephaniah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Zephaniah) 3:9). But if he did not succeed until now, or if he was killed, it becomes known that he is not this one of whom the Torah had promised us, and he is indeed like all proper and wholesome kings of the House of David who died. The Holy One, Blessed Be He, only set him up to try the public by him, thus: "And from the seekers of wisdom there shall stumble, to purify among them and to clarify and to brighten until the time of the ending, for there is yet to the set time" (Daniel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel) 11:35). Maimonides next writes why Jews believe that Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) was wrong to create Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) and why they believe that Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) was wrong to create Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) he laments the pains that Jews felt as a result of these new faiths that attempted to supplant Judaism. However, Maimonides then goes on to say that both faiths help God redeem the world.

As for Yeshua of Nazareth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus), who claimed to be the anointed one and was killed by the court, Daniel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel) had already prophecied about him, thus: "And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble" (Ibid. 14). Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the Anointed One saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot) whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for His thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of yeshua of Nazareth and of the Ishmaelite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael) who stood up after him (Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad)) are only intended to pave the way for the Anointed King, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: "For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder." How is this? The entire world had become filled with the issues of the Anointed One and of the Torah and the Laws, and these issues had spread out unto faraway islands and among many nations uncircumcised in the heart, and they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws. These say: These Laws were true but are already defunct in these days, and do not rule for the following generations; whereas the other ones say: There are secret layers in them and they are not to be treated literally, and the Messiah had come and revealed their secret meanings. But when the Anointed King will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray.

[Gwenyfur]

Here are some reqirements for the Jewish Messiah!
Textual requirements
Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah and what he will do is located within the book of Isaiah, although it is mentioned in other prophets as well.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
He will swallow up death forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations (Isaiah 56:3-7)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together, as it is written (Book of Zephaniah|Zephaniah]] 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
If you read the talmud it also explains some things.
Views of Maimonides

The predominant Jewish understanding of moshiach ("the messiah") is based on the writings of Maimonides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides), (the Rambam). His views on the messiah are discussed in his Mishneh Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishneh_Torah), his 14 volume compendium of Jewish law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha), in the section Hilkhot Melakhim Umilchamoteihem, chapter 11. Maimonides writes:

The anointed King (HaMelekh HaMoshiach) is destined to stand up and restore the Davidic Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line) to its antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He will build the Temple in Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem) and gather the strayed ones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes) of Israel together. All laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot) will return in his days as they were before: Sacrificial offerings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban) are offered and the Sabbatical years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatical_year_%28Bible%29) and Jubilees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_%28Biblical%29) are kept, according to all its precepts that are mentioned in the Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah). Whoever does not believe in him, or whoever does not wait for his coming, not only does he defy the other prophets, but also the Torah and our Rabbi Moses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses). For the Torah testifies about him, thus: "And the Lord Your God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism) will return your returned ones and will show you mercy and will return and gather you... If your strayed one shall be at the edge of Heaven... And He shall bring you" etc.(Deuteronomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteronomy) 30:3-5). These words that are explicitly stated in the Torah, encompass and include all the words spoken by all the prophets. In the section of Torah referring to Bala'am (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaam), too, it is stated, and there he prophesied about the two anointed ones: The first anointed one is David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David), who saved Israel from all their oppressors; and the last anointed one will stand up from among his descendants and saves Israel in the end. This is what he says (Numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Numbers) 24:17-18): "I see him but not now" - this is David; "I behold him but not near" - this is the Anointed King. "A star has shot forth from Jacob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob)" - this is David; "And a brand will rise up from Israel" - this is the Anointed King. "And he will smash the edges of Moab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moab)" - This is David, as it states: "...And he struck Moab and measured them by rope" (II Samuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Samuel) 8:2); "And he will uproot all Children of Seth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth)" - this is the Anointed King, of whom it is stated: "And his reign shall be from sea to sea" (Zechariah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Zechariah) 9:10). "And Edom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edom) shall be possessed" - this is David, thus: "And Edom became David's as slaves etc." (II Samuel 8:6); "And Se'ir shall be possessed by its enemy" - this is the Anointed King, thus: "And saviors shall go up Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism)'s" (Obadiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Obadiah) 1:21). And by the Towns of Refuge it states: "And if the Lord your God will widen up your territory... you shall add on for you another three towns" etc. (Deuteronomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteronomy) 19:8-9). Now this thing never happened; and the Holy One does not command in vain. But as for the words of the prophets, this matter needs no proof, as all their books are full with this issue. Do not imagine that the anointed King must perform miracles and signs and create new things in the world or resurrect the dead and so on. The matter is not so: For Rabbi Akiva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi_Akiva) was a great scholar of the sages of the Mishnah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishnah), and he was the assistant-warrior of the king Bar Kokhba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba), and claimed that he was the anointed king. He and all the Sages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannaim) of his generation deemed him the anointed king, until he was killed by sins; only since he was killed, they knew that he was not. The Sages asked him neither a miracle nor a sign... And if a king shall stand up from among the House of David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line), studying Torah and indulging in commandments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot) like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud), and he will coerce all Israel to follow it and to strengthen its weak points, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded {and won all nations surrounding him. Old prints and mss.} and built a Holy Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem) in its proper place and gathered the strayed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder (Zephaniah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Zephaniah) 3:9). But if he did not succeed until now, or if he was killed, it becomes known that he is not this one of whom the Torah had promised us, and he is indeed like all proper and wholesome kings of the House of David who died. The Holy One, Blessed Be He, only set him up to try the public by him, thus: "And from the seekers of wisdom there shall stumble, to purify among them and to clarify and to brighten until the time of the ending, for there is yet to the set time" (Daniel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel) 11:35). Maimonides next writes why Jews believe that Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) was wrong to create Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) and why they believe that Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) was wrong to create Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) he laments the pains that Jews felt as a result of these new faiths that attempted to supplant Judaism. However, Maimonides then goes on to say that both faiths help God redeem the world.

As for Yeshua of Nazareth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus), who claimed to be the anointed one and was killed by the court, Daniel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel) had already prophecied about him, thus: "And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble" (Ibid. 14). Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the Anointed One saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot) whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for His thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of yeshua of Nazareth and of the Ishmaelite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael) who stood up after him (Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad)) are only intended to pave the way for the Anointed King, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: "For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder." How is this? The entire world had become filled with the issues of the Anointed One and of the Torah and the Laws, and these issues had spread out unto faraway islands and among many nations uncircumcised in the heart, and they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws. These say: These Laws were true but are already defunct in these days, and do not rule for the following generations; whereas the other ones say: There are secret layers in them and they are not to be treated literally, and the Messiah had come and revealed their secret meanings. But when the Anointed King will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray.
It's my understanding that these same prophecies will be used by the AC to prove he is messiah....which raises the question in my mind...how do we not be deceived...or help others to not be deceived ...

I know Y'shua is my savior, He is the love of my life...but just for clarification?...

[Yusuphhai]

Ha, a believer of Messianic Faith is also a "Christian".;)

This link maybe help.

Christian Friends of Israel: http://www.cfijerusalem.org/

[stone]

It's my understanding that these same prophecies will be used by the AC to prove he is messiah....which raises the question in my mind...how do we not be deceived...or help others to not be deceived ...

I know Y'shua is my savior, He is the love of my life...but just for clarification?...

The anti-christ will not be able to produce good fruit. I imagine that it will be very difficult for someone like myself:) to get close enough to him to test him. He will be lawless as well, agents of evil, from what i've read and understand, cannot keep the law.

[visionary]

It's my understanding that these same prophecies will be used by the AC to prove he is messiah....which raises the question in my mind...how do we not be deceived...or help others to not be deceived ...

I know Y'shua is my savior, He is the love of my life...but just for clarification?...2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I always took this to mean that the deceiver can not come in the flesh. This probably is why there is so many movies, books, and manifestations of the spirit world in our lives today. Getting us use to it. So when the deceiver comes with all brightness like a flash of lightening from the east to the west and claims to be the Messiah, there will be millions who will believe.

[Shy21]

It's my understanding that these same prophecies will be used by the AC to prove he is messiah....which raises the question in my mind...how do we not be deceived...or help others to not be deceived ...

I know Y'shua is my savior, He is the love of my life...but just for clarification?...

I dont know if I am allowed to say this, but if I am not they can delete my post.

Jews believe that if the Messiah that comes doesnt fulfill one of those prophecies, that YHVH said the Messiah will fulfill, then he will be a false Messiah. He has to fullfill all that YHVH said in the Tanakh to be considered the Messiah. That's how Jews will know if this is truely the Messiah or not. YHVH told us in the Tanakh what to expect so we wont be deceived.

[HaNotsri]

Yusu,

My comment was meant with a humorous and light-hearted tone.

[Yovel]

Ha, a believer of Messianic Faith is also a "Christian".;)


Sorry Yusuphhai,


I have to disagree with you on that. Christians celebrate pagan holidays (Chirstmas and Easter), they don't celebrate the Feasts of the L-rd, they don't eat kosher, and they worship on the first day of the week. They think and act like Yeshua did away with the Law. Christains and Messianics are as differen't as night and day. I am sorry I don't mean to step on your toes.

[Bon]

I have just discovered the Jewish New Testament and am anxious to purchase. I am an Apostolic Christian. I believe God is One, and Yahshua (Jesus) is a manifestation of God.
I have a question about the Sabbath. Has anyone of the Messianic Jewish faith studied
Romans 14:5-6:
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.


Go back to the beginning of the chapter and you will read:

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, not to disputes over [B]DOUBTFUL THINGS.

This chpter is addressing the 'doubtful things', so it must not be an issue of whether or not to obey a commandment of Yahweh.

Bon

[Tishri1]

The anti-christ will not be able to produce good fruit. I imagine that it will be very difficult for someone like myself:) to get close enough to him to test him. He will be lawless as well, agents of evil, from what i've read and understand, cannot keep the law.there is nothing new under the sun...every AC has been basically evil and antisemetic, so I suspect He will be too....

[Yusuphhai]

Sorry Yusuphhai,


I have to disagree with you on that. Christians celebrate pagan holidays (Chirstmas and Easter), they don't celebrate the Feasts of the L-rd, they don't eat kosher, and they worship on the first day of the week. They think and act like Yeshua did away with the Law. Christains and Messianics are as differen't as night and day. I am sorry I don't mean to step on your toes.


Sorry, Yovel


Maybe you misunderstood me. The meaning of “Christian” refers to the original definition in the New Testament. But in fact as you said Christianity receives many customs of Paganism. Even the word “Christian” has bad reputation in the middle of Jews.



I don’t know whether you agree that Yeshua is Messiah, the son of David, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the only begotten son of YHWH. I respect the whole Torah of Moses and decided to obey the spirit of it. I think Adonai would remember the great effort of Orthodox Judaism in worship with pure heart.



Happy Hanukah (and New Year)!:)



Shalom, Yusuph

[visionary]

Sorry Yusuphhai,


I have to disagree with you on that. Christians celebrate pagan holidays (Chirstmas and Easter), they don't celebrate the Feasts of the L-rd, they don't eat kosher, and they worship on the first day of the week. They think and act like Yeshua did away with the Law. Christains and Messianics are as differen't as night and day. I am sorry I don't mean to step on your toes.Sad isn't it, that you see "christians" as those who do not follow in the Lord's footsteps. The original "christians" were Christ like right down to their Jewish toes.

[talmidim]

Sad isn't it, that you see "christians" as those who do not follow in the Lord's footsteps. The original "christians" were Christ like right down to their Jewish toes.Amein. But it was foretold, all those that would be decieved, seduced and fall away. It is too sad.

[DiddyDon]

I am a Christian. I have studied for 20 years, not just the Word but the history of the Church also. The problem is that a Roman Emporer named Constantine brought into the Church pagan religions. The trinity dates back to Nimrod who was worshipped as hores and Set and his mother was worshipped as Isis. IHS is seen in many "churches". Christmas is a pagan tradition of worshipping the sun and easter is also pagan. Many traditions come from worship of Dagon the fish god. Fish on a certain day, holy water and many others. Halos on angels or heavenly figures are a symbol of the sun. The word of God does not need outside help until outside influence is brought. When that outside influence threatens the truth, then you must look for outside rebuttle.

[visionary]

I am a Christian. I have studied for 20 years, not just the Word but the history of the Church also. The problem is that a Roman Emporer named Constantine brought into the Church pagan religions. The trinity dates back to Nimrod who was worshipped as hores and Set and his mother was worshipped as Isis. IHS is seen in many "churches". Christmas is a pagan tradition of worshipping the sun and easter is also pagan. Many traditions come from worship of Dagon the fish god. Fish on a certain day, holy water and many others. Halos on angels or heavenly figures are a symbol of the sun. The word of God does not need outside help until outside influence is brought. When that outside influence threatens the truth, then you must look for outside rebuttle.So what has the Word of God lead you to believe, considering you know this about the influences upon the christian church?

[DiddyDon]

So what has the Word of God lead you to believe, considering you know this about the influences upon the christian church?

I don't follow Christmas nor Easter. I believe God is One person manifested in many ways, in the flesh, as the burning bush, pillar of fire and cloud, etc.

What I am studying now is the Sabbath and other Jewish customs. I am a gentile. Do I follow Jewish law? We were given a new covenent. Is this circumcision alone? Is it also the sacrificing of animals or the entire Levitical law? How many commandments were there and how many still apply? It's all in the study of the New Covenant.

[Yovel]

Sorry, Yovel


]I don’t know whether you agree that Yeshua is Messiah, the son of David, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the only begotten son of YHWH. I respect the whole Torah of Moses and decided to obey the spirit of it. I think Adonai would remember the great effort of Orthodox Judaism in worship with pure heart.



Happy Hanukah (and New Year)!:)



Shalom, Yusuph







I agree with you Yusuph and I did misundertand where you were coming from.

Happy Hanukah and have a prosperous New Year!

Yovel

[Yusuphhai]

I agree with you Yusuph and I did misundertand where you were coming from.

Happy Hanukah and have a prosperous New Year!

Yovel
Thank you Yovel. I have a complex blood linage of Chinese and West Asian. I was born in Beijing China and now live there. But in culture I have a special relationship with TaiWan(Republic of China).;)

[visionary]

I don't follow Christmas nor Easter. I believe God is One person manifested in many ways, in the flesh, as the burning bush, pillar of fire and cloud, etc.

What I am studying now is the Sabbath and other Jewish customs. I am a gentile. Do I follow Jewish law? We were given a new covenent. Is this circumcision alone? Is it also the sacrificing of animals or the entire Levitical law? How many commandments were there and how many still apply? It's all in the study of the New Covenant.Awww. yes, I remember my many studies on the subject when I was in the midst of those controversies in my heart. :bow: May the Lord bless you with His peace. :bow: May His Word give you the spiritual strength to walk therein. :bow: May the Lord continue to lead you and direct you... follow Him.