Hyper-Calvinist?

[HumbleMan]

On another thread(s), I have seen the term "hyper-calvinist". What is that? I kinda understand the basics of Calvinism, and that there are varying degrees in which people follow his theology, but how can you be more than 5 point if that is all there is?

Thanks (from a non Calvinist)

[BBAS 64]

On another thread(s), I have seen the term "hyper-calvinist". What is that? I kinda understand the basics of Calvinism, and that there are varying degrees in which people follow his theology, but how can you be more than 5 point if that is all there is?

Thanks (from a non Calvinist)

Good Day, HumbleMan

From Spurgeon.org:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm

Peace to u,

Bill

[Flynmonkie]

Here is an overal view from Wikipedia.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper-calvinism

[Dmckay]

Your question might be better addressed by asking the question on the Reformed board. While many Baptists (but by no means all) embraced the five points of T.U.L.I.P. historically, there are very few Baptist groups today that will even acknowledge that heritage, much less, be able to give you a good anser to your question.

[Flynmonkie]

Your question might be better addressed by asking the question on the Reformed board. While many Baptists (but by no means all) embraced the five points of T.U.L.I.P. historically, there are very few Baptist groups today that will even acknowledge that heritage, much less, be able to give you a good anser to your question.
Dmckay have you found a good source that is reliable to actually identify what Calvin taught as opposed to what it has been turned into?

[arunma]

My pastor (John Piper, for any who've heard of him) has been described as a "hyper-Calvinist." He seems like a pretty ordinary Calvinist to me. Then again, I've never been to a church with an "ordinary" Calvinist pastor, so I have no real basis for comparison.

[BBAS 64]

My pastor (John Piper, for any who've heard of him) has been described as a "hyper-Calvinist." He seems like a pretty ordinary Calvinist to me. Then again, I've never been to a church with an "ordinary" Calvinist pastor, so I have no real basis for comparison.

Good Day, Arunma

Piper has just extended the 5 points to 7 if I recall :scratch: .... Good for him :clap: :clap:

All Baptist should be 7 pointers...:P

Peace to u,

Bill

[Flynmonkie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Calvinism_in_General

Here is another link to Calvinism - it seems to delve a bit into the variations of Calvin too, these links offer books and other resources to study.

[Dmckay]

Dmckay have you found a good source that is reliable to actually identify what Calvin taught as opposed to what it has been turned into?
Calvinism, no. T.U.L.I.P., which is usually what people mean when they say Calvinism, yes. My doctoral dissertation was entitled Lorship Salvation: Is It Biblical? One of my Doctoral Advisors told me that it was the best study of T.U.L.I.P. that he had ever seen. I had gone to a Conservative Baptist Bible College and an Independant Baptist Theological Seminary Calvinism had been mentioned, in Church History, but not in Theology. So I wasn't aware of the whole Calvin/Arminius debate.

My thesis was based on the teaching of Christ, and a challenge by a Bible College professor that anyone of us show him even on verse where Jesus called anyone to salvation. His point was that Jesus always called people to accept Him as their Kurios, and that salvation was a result of that surrender of the control of one's life to Jesus. That professor is now the President of Dallas Theological Seminary.

If you are interseted in reading it, I have actually reworked it for laymen to facilitate understanding. I also included a brief history of Baptistic relation to the teaching of T.U.L.I.P. Just message me and I will send you a copy in whatever format is most convenient to you. It really isn't a "heavy" theological study.

[Flynmonkie]

Yes, I would very much like to read this. I will shoot a message Thanks!

[MatthewPoole]

Best place to ask this is in the Reformed group, where all of John Calvin's people hang out at. :) :P

MP

[BBAS 64]

Best place to ask this is in the Reformed group, where all of John Calvin's people hang out at. :) :P

MP

Good Day, MatthewPoole

We do have some Gill and Spurgeon Baptist here...

Peace to u,

Bill

[mlqurgw]

On another thread(s), I have seen the term "hyper-calvinist". What is that? I kinda understand the basics of Calvinism, and that there are varying degrees in which people follow his theology, but how can you be more than 5 point if that is all there is?

Thanks (from a non Calvinist)The term Hyper-Calvinist takes on several meanings depending on who is using the term. Some call any Calvinists Hyper. Some call those who are supralapsarian(belief that God elected the rebrobate to damnation) Hyper. Some call me a Hyper because I do not believe God loves all men nor that He offers salvation but gives it. I was raised in true Hyper-Calvinism and it is the belief that God saves His elect apart from the preaching of the Gospel. I believe that to be unbiblical but struggled with it for several years. I am a Baptist and have been one since I became a believer. I would argue Baptists, for the most part, have been Calvinistic in soteriology throughout history. But of course it depends on the view of Baptist history you subscribe to: the succesionist view, the Anabaptist spiritual kinship view, or the English seperatist view.

Hope that helps. :)

[Dmckay]

The term Hyper-Calvinist takes on several meanings depending on who is using the term. Some call any Calvinists Hyper. Some call those who are supralapsarian(belief that God elected the rebrobate to damnation) Hyper. Some call me a Hyper because I do not believe God loves all men nor that He offers salvation but gives it. I was raised in true Hyper-Calvinism and it is the belief that God saves His elect apart from the preaching of the Gospel. I believe that to be unbiblical but struggled with it for several years. I am a Baptist and have been one since I became a believer. I would argue Baptists, for the most part, have been Calvinistic in soteriology throughout history. But of course it depends on the view of Baptist history you subscribe to: the succesionist view, the Anabaptist spiritual kinship view, or the English seperatist view.

Hope that helps. :)From all the different descriptions that I have read through the years, I think it is say to say that Hyper______ anything is relational. It's like saying someone is left-wing or right wing, it al depends on whether they are to the left or right of you.

Even the term Calvinist is pretty loose. More often than not when somene says they are a Calvinist they are referring to the 5-points of T.U.L.I.P. which are actually the official pronouncement of the Synod of Dort which was held to give an official position of the Church as a whole to the growing revival of the Pelagian heresy as it was being taught by Jacob Arminius and his followers. Arminius had presented his thesis with 5 points. His declaration was answered point for point by the 5 points of T.U.L.I.P. How much input Calvin actually had with T.U.L.I.P. is a point of debate.

Many how have had the apellation Calvinist hung upon them have never even read any of Calvin's writings. They could no more tell you what Calvin taught then they could about the teachings of G. Jankovsky.

[Flynmonkie]

Many how have had the apellation Calvinist hung upon them have never even read any of Calvin's writings. They could no more tell you what Calvin taught then they could about the teachings of G. Jankovsky.
Thank you for this --- it is exactly what I have thought in my research. As I have said in another thread – only ONE person in my lifetime has ever explained Calvin correctly to me. Until recently ;)

In addition, I still have yet to grasp a clear understanding where Calvin and Luther really disagreed?

[ReformedAnglican]

A hyper-calvinist takes Calvinism to an extreme and refuses to preach the gospel because they do not believe that they should preach to the reprobate. Complete nonsense in my opinion.

[JPPT1974]

What is exactly the reprobate?
That is new to me! :scratch: :confused:

[mlqurgw]

What is exactly the reprobate?
That is new to me! :scratch: :confused:I am not sure of the technical definition but it is used of the non-elect and those who continue in unbelief.

[R.J.S]

I am a high Calvinist ;)

[R.J.S]

What is exactly the reprobate?

Those who God predestinated to hell. Look for Bunyan's Reprobation Asserted :)

[BBAS 64]

What is exactly the reprobate?
That is new to me! :scratch: :confused:

Good Day, JPPT1974

JI Packer notes:

Reprobation is the name given to God’s eternal decision regarding those sinners whom he has not chosen for life. His decision is in essence a decision not to change them, as the elect are destined to be changed, but to leave them to sin as in their hearts they already want to do, and finally to judge them as they deserve for what they have done. When in particular instances God gives them over to their sins (i.e., removes restraints on their doing the disobedient things they desire), this is itself the beginning of judgment. It is called “hardening” (Rom. 9:18; 11:25; cf. Ps. 81:12; Rom. 1:24, 26, 28), and it inevitably leads to greater guilt.

Reprobation is a biblical reality (Rom. 9:14-24; 1 Pet. 2:8), but not one that bears directly on Christian behavior. The reprobates are faceless so far as Christians are concerned, and it is not for us to try to identify them. Rather, we should live in light of the certainty that anyone may be saved if he or she will but repent and put faith in Christ.

We should view all persons that we meet as possibly being numbered among the elect.





From: Concise Theology: A Guide To Historic Christian Beliefs

Those whom are not positivly changed by the work of God though his Holy Spirit in accodance to His will, are those that are the reprobate.

Hope that helps...

Peace to u,

Bill

[Imblessed]

Good Day, JPPT1974

JI Packer notes:

Reprobation is the name given to God’s eternal decision regarding those sinners whom he has not chosen for life. His decision is in essence a decision not to change them, as the elect are destined to be changed, but to leave them to sin as in their hearts they already want to do, and finally to judge them as they deserve for what they have done. When in particular instances God gives them over to their sins (i.e., removes restraints on their doing the disobedient things they desire), this is itself the beginning of judgment. It is called “hardening” (Rom. 9:18; 11:25; cf. Ps. 81:12; Rom. 1:24, 26, 28), and it inevitably leads to greater guilt.

Reprobation is a biblical reality (Rom. 9:14-24; 1 Pet. 2:8), but not one that bears directly on Christian behavior. The reprobates are faceless so far as Christians are concerned, and it is not for us to try to identify them. Rather, we should live in light of the certainty that anyone may be saved if he or she will but repent and put faith in Christ.

We should view all persons that we meet as possibly being numbered among the elect.





From: Concise Theology: A Guide To Historic Christian Beliefs

Those whom are not positivly changed by the work of God though his Holy Spirit in accodance to His will, are those that are the reprobate.

Hope that helps...

Peace to u,

Bill
excellent post Bill!

[Erinwilcox]

[QUOTE=Dmckay]

Even the term Calvinist is pretty loose. More often than not when somene says they are a Calvinist they are referring to the 5-points of T.U.L.I.P. which are actually the official pronouncement of the Synod of Dort which was held to give an official position of the Church as a whole to the growing revival of the Pelagian heresy as it was being taught by Jacob Arminius and his followers. Arminius had presented his thesis with 5 points. His declaration was answered point for point by the 5 points of T.U.L.I.P. How much input Calvin actually had with T.U.L.I.P. is a point of debate.
Many how have had the apellation Calvinist hung upon them have never even read any of Calvin's writings. They could no more tell you what Calvin taught then they could about the teachings of G. Jankovsky.http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gif

[QUOTE]

Whatever part Calvin did or did not have in coming up with the TULIP, those who hold to the doctrines that the TULIP teaches generally call themselves Calvinists. I suppose that since doctrines like Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the Saints were commonly taught by Calvin, those who held to TULIP took Calvin's name like the Arminians have the name of Jacob Arminius.

Calvinists are not followers of John Calvin, they just use his name to summarize their beliefs. Calvinists follow Christ and His word and most are extremely well studied in the Bible's doctrine and theology. Many are extremely well read in Calvin and other theologians as well.

[Dmckay]

Even the term Calvinist is pretty loose. More often than not when somene says they are a Calvinist they are referring to the 5-points of T.U.L.I.P. which are actually the official pronouncement of the Synod of Dort which was held to give an official position of the Church as a whole to the growing revival of the Pelagian heresy as it was being taught by Jacob Arminius and his followers. Arminius had presented his thesis with 5 points. His declaration was answered point for point by the 5 points of T.U.L.I.P. How much input Calvin actually had with T.U.L.I.P. is a point of debate.
[i]Many how have had the apellation Calvinist hung upon them have never even read any of Calvin's writings. They could no more tell you what Calvin taught then they could about the teachings of G. Jankovsky.

[/QUOTE=ErinWilcox]
Whatever part Calvin did or did not have in coming up with the TULIP, those who hold to the doctrines that the TULIP teaches generally call themselves Calvinists. I suppose that since doctrines like Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the Saints were commonly taught by Calvin, those who held to TULIP took Calvin's name like the Arminians have the name of Jacob Arminius.

Calvinists are not followers of John Calvin, they just use his name to summarize their beliefs. Calvinists follow Christ and His word and most are extremely well studied in the Bible's doctrine and theology. Many are extremely well read in Calvin and other theologians as well.
I partially agree with you. While it may well be that someone who is a 5 point T.U.L.I.P. adherent may also follow the other teachings of John Calvin and thus, could accurately call themselves Calvinist. However, one does not necessarily mean that the other follows. Many Baptist groups in the States have a historical heritage of being staunchly 5-Point T.U.L.I.P. believers, but they would have problems with many of Calvin's other teachings and practices.

I was ordained in a Conservative Baptist Church in Phoenix, AZ where when they said they were Conservative, they meant it body, soul and spirit. The CB Bible College had professors who would, for the most part, reluctantly admit to being a 4 point or maybe even a 4 1/2-pointer. But T.U.L.I.P. was discussed theologically and historically, but I don't recall any mention of Calvin in relation to T.U.L.I.P. John Calvin was discussed in Church History, and as one of the powers behind the Reformation, but most of the discussion revolved around differences between his teachings and those of the other Reformers of his day.

I am unashamedly vocal in my teaching of the Doctrines of Grace and I am staunchly 5-point with regard to T.U.L.I.P. I do not call myself a Calvinist, quite frankly, because I spend my time studying Scripture and not the teachings of any one man. Not because I don't think that there is value in another's teachings, but because, as a Pastor, I must answer to the True Shepherd for how I handled my stewardship of parts of His flock. I must give answer for any error in feeding His flock, so I seek out the best pastureland and don't rely on those meadows that have been grazed over, by another's flock.

So, while a T.U.L.I.P.er may be a Calvinist, they may also have very little else to do with the actual teachings of Calvin. Thus the two terms are not necessarily interchangable.

[mlqurgw]

I partially agree with you. While it may well be that someone who is a 5 point T.U.L.I.P. adherent may also follow the other teachings of John Calvin and thus, could accurately call themselves Calvinist. However, one does not necessarily mean that the other follows. Many Baptist groups in the States have a historical heritage of being staunchly 5-Point T.U.L.I.P. believers, but they would have problems with many of Calvin's other teachings and practices.

I was ordained in a Conservative Baptist Church in Phoenix, AZ where when they said they were Conservative, they meant it body, soul and spirit. The CB Bible College had professors who would, for the most part, reluctantly admit to being a 4 point or maybe even a 4 1/2-pointer. But T.U.L.I.P. was discussed theologically and historically, but I don't recall any mention of Calvin in relation to T.U.L.I.P. John Calvin was discussed in Church History, and as one of the powers behind the Reformation, but most of the discussion revolved around differences between his teachings and those of the other Reformers of his day.

I am unashamedly vocal in my teaching of the Doctrines of Grace and I am staunchly 5-point with regard to T.U.L.I.P. I do not call myself a Calvinist, quite frankly, because I spend my time studying Scripture and not the teachings of any one man. Not because I don't think that there is value in another's teachings, but because, as a Pastor, I must answer to the True Shepherd for how I handled my stewardship of parts of His flock. I must give answer for any error in feeding His flock, so I seek out the best pastureland and don't rely on those meadows that have been grazed over, by another's flock.

So, while a T.U.L.I.P.er may be a Calvinist, they may also have very little else to do with the actual teachings of Calvin. Thus the two terms are not necessarily interchangable.Amen!

[Dmckay]

Calvinists are not followers of John Calvin, they just use his name to summarize their beliefs. Calvinists follow Christ and His word and most are extremely well studied in the Bible's doctrine and theology. Many are extremely well read in Calvin and other theologians as well.
I forgot that I wanted to address this portion of your post as well. The very use of the term "Calvinist" implies that there is adherence to the teachings of Calvin. You say that it just indicates that his teachings summarize your beliefs. If your beliefs parallel Calvin's to the extent that you choose to use his name to "summarize" your beliefs, then you are a follower of Calvin.

I have known many Pastor's and Professors who call themselves "Calvinist" and they are using the term in much the same manner as you address. However, they also recognize that by calling themselves "Calvinists" they are identifying themselves as followers of the teachings of Calvin. These men are well studied Biblically and theologically and I have no problem recommending the Churches and Schools at which they serve the Lord.

I am not saying in this, or my previous post, that for someone to be a Calvinist means that they aren't a Christian as well. I hope that you, or the others who have read these exchanges received that impression. There are many admirable aspects to the teachings of Calvinism, but there are some aspects of his teachings that many believers don't feel are Biblically correct. Over the years there have been many men of renown in the Church that have also taught things in which that their hermeneutic wasn't quit what it ought to be. An example that you might be familiar with is the teachings of John MacArthur. He has become a lightening rod of late for many of his positions and public comments. I have read many of MacArthur's book and have recommended them to friends and members of my Church, but I don't know anyone that calls themselves a MacArthurite. There are some of his writings and teachings with which I do not agree, so those items I don't recommend.

You may have noticed from my IDent box that I am listed as non-denominational, and yet I regularly post on the Baptist/anabaptist board. There is a good reason for this, first I was ordained by the Conservative Baptists who consider themselves a movement and not a denomination. Secondly, as I have studied the Scriptures more and more over the years I have become, as stated earlier, a staunch 5-point T.U.L.I.P. believer and teacher. This is not the official position of Conservative Baptists so I downplay my CB roots. When asked about my beliefs I tell people that I am a Christian first, a Biblicist second, and I fellowship with any believer who is seeking to grow in their faith and relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ.