Will all Israel be saved?

[Victrixa]

Do some of you have an idea concerning this? Will all of Israel be saved- will they all come to know Messiah Yeshua?

(I love the nation of Israel so much!) :)

[jgonz]

I believe that only those who truly have a relationship with the L-rd (Jew or Gentile) are going to be "saved".

Ancient examples would be Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... Rahab... and many others who trusted on, relied on, and believed in HaShem and the promise of the Messiah.

People can be of any race, creed, color, or national background and truly know the L-rd... and the same goes for the people who miss it.

[BarbB]

ZEC 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [11] On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [12] The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [13] the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [14] and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

ZEC 13:1 "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.



I take these verses in Zechariah to mean that God will pour out his spirit on all Jews and they will recognize that Yeshua was/is the Messiah. They will weep and their sins will be cleansed and they will worship Yeshua as we do. I'm sure that some will not be saved due to humans being what they are, but I trust that most will be saved!

[HaNotsri]

I think it's important for Jews to not rely on the fact that they are part of God's people for their salvation. They shouldn't rely on their ethnic-identity, but on God's purposes for them. On their relationship with God and their faith in Him, not in their identity.

[Israeli]

Do some of you have an idea concerning this? Will all of Israel be saved- will they all come to know Messiah Yeshua?

(I love the nation of Israel so much!) :)

Shalom Victrixa,

In Romans 11 Shaul says that all Israel shall be saved and Zechariah 12 graphically explains the event.


In Yeshua,
Israel.

[Higher Truth]

Shalom Victrixa,

In Romans 11 Shaul says that all Israel shall be saved and Zechariah 12 graphically explains the event.


In Yeshua,
Israel.

Zechariah 13, as well as other passages in the Scriptures, predict a future that will be even a more horrific experience for the Jewish people than the Holocaust. Prior to WW2, the Jewish population worldwide was approximately eighteen million. The Holocaust reduced that number to approximately twelve million, which means that roughly one third of the Jewish people were murdered during the Nazi attempts at eliminating the Jewish race (6 million total- 1.5 million children). Today, there are an estimated thirteen to fifteen million Jews scattered throughout the world in one hundred thirty four countries, with the U.S. being the largest population, and Israel being a close second.




Very sadly, if interpreted literally, Zechariah 13 prophesies that during this next Holocaust, two thirds of the Jewish people will be lost.







Zechariah 13

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say: 'It is My people', and they shall say: 'The LORD is my God.'

[HaNotsri]

That verse in Zechariah 13 is extremely important for eschatological reasons. It shows that that the ingathering of the exiles to the Land of Israel takes place BEFORE Israel has repented! The 2/3 are cut off and destroyed from "the whole land." This is part of the reason why I believe the ingathering of the exiles has begun. I had a huge argument with god himself (sarcasm) on another forum about this very issue

[BarbB]

I notice that you argued with little-g god, not wrestled with big-G God! LOL.

There are several prophesies now that say that something is going to happen to NYC so that the Jews will return to Israel. It's happening on a tiny basis, but nothing large scale. The movement will be huge and mainly tied to failures in the financial district. Don't know if it's physical or economic.

[Israeli]

Zechariah 13, as well as other passages in the Scriptures, predict a future that will be even a more horrific experience for the Jewish people than the Holocaust. Prior to WW2, the Jewish population worldwide was approximately eighteen million. The Holocaust reduced that number to approximately twelve million, which means that roughly one third of the Jewish people were murdered during the Nazi attempts at eliminating the Jewish race (6 million total- 1.5 million children). Today, there are an estimated thirteen to fifteen million Jews scattered throughout the world in one hundred thirty four countries, with the U.S. being the largest population, and Israel being a close second.


Very sadly, if interpreted literally, Zechariah 13 prophesies that during this next Holocaust, two thirds of the Jewish people will be lost.


Zechariah 13

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say: 'It is My people', and they shall say: 'The LORD is my God.'

Shalom,

Take note that Zechariah said two thirds of the inhabitants of the land shall be cut off and die. He did not say Jews or children of Israel. There are now one million Russians in Israel of whom many are not Jewish and are very anti-semitic. They are saying bad things to their Russian relatives in Russia about Jews in Israel and stirring up hatred and jealousy in Russia. Note that Ezekiel names Russia first when describing Armegeddon. After Israel has joined the European Union, many more gentiles will be able to move to Israel. Israel is on the brink of becoming an economic powerhouse which will attract many gentiles. Count five years from now. Next years Intel chips for PCs were developed in Jerusalem and there are big factories in Israel manufacturing Intel CPUs. Bill Gates was here the other day meeting with businesses. The two thirds that will be cut off and die may well be gentiles who have provoked the nations of the world to attack Israel in armageddon. The term “to be cut off” is a Jewish term used in the Torah to mean to be cut off from God’s family and lose salvation.

In Zechariah 12 and 13, Yeshua comes to save His people not let them die. Numerous places in scripture talks about the salvation of the Jewish nation. Shaul said that ALL Israel shall be saved in Romans 11.

However this salvation of the Jewish nation is during Armageddon which is also known as Jacob’s trouble and is a time of darkness during which the Sun will be as sackcloth and Jews will probably wish that they were dead rather than to suffer these sufferings. This is the Great Tribulation. Christians will only suffer tribulation before the resurrection which all happens before this.

P.S. There is a Jewish Midrash which compares Joseph to the Messiah. Take note that Joseph removes the gentiles from the room before he reveals himself to his brothers. The Jews are brothers of Yeshua according to the flesh and remember what they say about blood? Yeshua wants to deal with His Jewish brothers in private, it is a very personal issue. He cannot do this with a mass of anti-semitic Russians around.

There are Jews in Israel from Russia who are geniunely Jewish. They are identified as Jews and not Russians.

In Yeshua,
Israel.

[Israeli]

Shalom,

The last three Jewish holy days are invaluable in understanding the second coming of Messiah Yeshua.

5. Trumpets is the coming of Messiah as King.
Trumpets are always blown to anounce the coming of the king. As Messiah returns it is also the resurrection of the dead.

6. Day of Atonement has always been about national atonement of sin. After the resurrection of the dead and the return of the Messiah of Israel, the only nation which can receive national atonement is the Jewish nation as promised by Shaul in Romans 11 and Zechariah in chapters 12-13.

7. Tabernacles is the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 where Tabernacles is to be observed by all nations in order to receive favour from Messiah Yeshua.

This is a very brief summary. I would love to tour the U.S.A. and teach on this subject properly, explaining as a Jew. This is never taught in the church.

In Yeshua,
Israel
Missionary in Israel

[Israeli]

Do some of you have an idea concerning this? Will all of Israel be saved- will they all come to know Messiah Yeshua?

(I love the nation of Israel so much!) :)



Shalom,

All those who love Israel and the Jews should support trained and qualified missionaries who pay a very high price to reach Israelis with the Gospel of Yeshua.

However many support other organisations in Israel who persecute missionaries in Israel instead of supporting the missionaries. Most missionaries in Israel have no support at all but are persecuted by “good works” organisations financed by Christians.

In Yeshua,
Israel.

[BarbB]

Shalom,

Take note that Zechariah said two thirds of the inhabitants of the land shall be cut off and die. He did not say Jews or children of Israel. There are now one million Russians in Israel of whom many are not Jewish and are very anti-semitic. They are saying bad things to their Russian relatives in Russia about Jews in Israel and stirring up hatred and jealousy in Russia. Note that Ezekiel names Russia first when describing Armegeddon. After Israel has joined the European Union, many more gentiles will be able to move to Israel. Israel is on the brink of becoming an economic powerhouse which will attract many gentiles. Count five years from now. Next years Intel chips for PCs were developed in Jerusalem and there are big factories in Israel manufacturing Intel CPUs. Bill Gates was here the other day meeting with businesses. The two thirds that will be cut off and die may well be gentiles who have provoked the nations of the world to attack Israel in armageddon. The term “to be cut off” is a Jewish term used in the Torah to mean to be cut off from God’s family and lose salvation.

...There are Jews in Israel from Russia who are geniunely Jewish. They are identified as Jews and not Russians.

In Yeshua,
Israel.

Wow, I had no idea. This hurts that Russian gentiles can emigrate to Israel and those of us who love Israel cannot.

An interesting new reading of the 2/3's; I don't see why not. :wave:

[HaNotsri]

Well, the only reason the Russians are able to immigrate is usually because they are intermarried with a Russian Jew or one of their parents (or even grandparents) was a Jew. I think the way Ben-Gurion once said it was that if they were considered Jewish enough for Hitler to kill them, then they should be Jewish enough to immigrate to Israel (not the exact quote). According to Jewish law, one who is born of a Jewish mother or is converted halachically is Jewish. But because Israel is not a religious state (obviously), they don't take that into account

[Israeli]

Well, the only reason the Russians are able to immigrate is usually because they are intermarried with a Russian Jew or one of their parents (or even grandparents) was a Jew. I think the way Ben-Gurion once said it was that if they were considered Jewish enough for Hitler to kill them, then they should be Jewish enough to immigrate to Israel (not the exact quote). According to Jewish law, one who is born of a Jewish mother or is converted halachically is Jewish. But because Israel is not a religious state (obviously), they don't take that into account


Shalom,

You are forgetting one more possibility, fraud. The Russian economy is not doing very well since communism and you have millions of uneducated Russians who are accustomed to handouts without having to work for them. The Israeli government is offering free tickets and handouts to any Russian who claims to be Jewish but cannot prove it. What do you think will happen?

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and the Muslims are breeding as fast as they can to vote in a Muslim government in Israel and then drown all the Jews in the Mediteranean Sea as the constitution of the P.L.O. states. Therefore the Israeli government wants the votes of all these gentile Russians to keep the government Muslim free, so when Russians claim to be Jewish to get Israeli citizenship, the Israeli government turns a blind eye.

The result is that the Israeli government is importing anti-semitism to further their own political agenda and careers which will result in armegeddon.

The state of Israel was formed after the Holocaust as a solution so that there will never be a Holocaust again.


In Yeshua,
Israel.

[Devasha]

I think the way Ben-Gurion once said it was that if they were considered Jewish enough for Hitler to kill them, then they should be Jewish enough to immigrate to Israel (not the exact quote).

I'm pretty sure Hitler would consider all of us who observe Chanukah to be Jewish enough to kill, so it's sad that the government of Israel hasn't yet seen fit to let all of us in. :(

[stone]

What if they do not want YHWH's spirit poured out on them?

Then what?

according to trinity doctrine, when they pray to father, they are praying to Y-shua, even if they don't know it. This pouring out is not something you will have time to think about, it will happen and when it does and it is received by whoever it is received by, how can you say no to something as pure as g-d?

[hadara]

Do some of you have an idea concerning this? Will all of Israel be saved- will they all come to know Messiah Yeshua?

(I love the nation of Israel so much!) :)
Shaul taught that there are two Israels: one is according to the flesh, his kinsmen, that he stated he would be condemned for, because he knew they needed Yeshua, and didn't want Him; another is the Israel of God, the true believers, who will believe, who now believe. Shaul is not teaching that all descendents from the tribes of Israel will be saved - that is what Hebert Armstrong teaches, and it is a wrong view.

hadara

[Sephania]

Shaul taught that there are two Israels: one is according to the flesh, his kinsmen, that he stated he would be condemned for, because he knew they needed Yeshua, and didn't want Him; another is the Israel of God, the true believers, who will believe, who now believe. Shaul is not teaching that all descendents from the tribes of Israel will be saved - that is what Hebert Armstrong teaches, and it is a wrong view.

hadaraHmm, where did Sha'ul declare he would be condemned for being Jewish? The Jewish nation is the Israel of G-d, some are believing now, some will in the future.

All Israel will be saved. Will be, does not mean when a gentile comes to saving faith in Yeshua the Jewish Messiah they are now 'Israel' and 'will be saved'. Doesn't make logical sense. He says 'will/shall be' which is future tense in that written time.

But Israel shall be saved in the L-RD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. ~Isaiah 45:17


Romans 11:26

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

It is plain by the use of 'Jacob', that he means Israel as in from 'the sons of Jacob', the twelve tribes.

Jeremiah 23

5 Behold, the days come, saith the L-RD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE L-RD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the L-RD, that they shall no more say, The L-RD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8 But, The L-RD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

We can see that this speaks of now, now past, because in the past it has always been the L-RD who brought us out of Egypt, but now in this day, in our lifetime before our eyes only is He becoming the G-d that is bringing ISRAEL out of the north country( Russia, Yukraine, Europe, etc) back to their own land.

That is the Isreal, the Israel of the Old Covenant, that is who shall be saved as our G-d promised long ago and He is faithful to do it. Amein!

[visionary]

It is one of the miracle prophecies in the Word of God that we would have to see to believe.

[Sephania]

Shalom,


In Yeshua,
Israel.

Shalom! Are you from Tents of Mercy?

~Zayit

[hadara]

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-left.gifQuotehttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-by-left.gifOriginally Posted by: hadara http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-by-right.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gifShaul taught that there are two Israels: one is according to the flesh, his kinsmen, that he stated he would be condemned for, because he knew they needed Yeshua, and didn't want Him; another is the Israel of God, the true believers, who will believe, who now believe. Shaul is not teaching that all descendents from the tribes of Israel will be saved - that is what Hebert Armstrong teaches, and it is a wrong view.

hadara

ZAYIT Hmm, where did Sha'ul declare he would be condemned for being Jewish? The Jewish nation is the Israel of G-d, some are believing now, some will in the future.

All Israel will be saved. Will be, does not mean when a gentile comes to saving faith in Yeshua the Jewish Messiah they are now 'Israel' and 'will be saved'. Doesn't make logical sense. He says 'will/shall be' which is future tense in that written time.


I believe that Shaul taught there are two Israels: one mentioned in Galatians, which he declared does not inherit the promises; and spiritual Israel, made up of all true believers, gentiles and Jews. The tribe of Judah is just one tribe. Ephraim and Manasseh were gentiles, and therefore the "Israel of God, " when speaking of earthly Israel, cannot be considered only 'Jewish.'

Romans 9:3 NASB
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed"


Here, I believe the term "kinsmen according to the flesh" means earthly Israel, the same people Shaul described in galatians as being in slavery and not inheriting the promises, persecuting those born of the Spirit.

To teach that God is going to save every descendent from Jacob is the same teaching that Herbert Armstrong taught. God does not save according to descendency. He chooses whom He will, and He has promised to save a remnant out of the children of Israel. It is not according to works, but grace. Salvation is not up to the one who chooses, or wills it; but only up to God, who shows mercy. He is control of His harvest field.


the passage continues:

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. "




This is why John the Baptist warned the Jewish nation to stop depending on their ancestry. That counts for nothing. The children of the flesh are not Abraham's decendents. Only the children of promise, those chosen by pre-destination, are descendents of Abraham.


Yeshua's teaching in John chapter 8 totally agrees with this concept.


Salvation by geneology is not true in any sense. It is all according to promise. Yeshua never taught that God will save every Jewish descendent from Abraham:



Matthew 8:11-13 KJV

11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.


Hadara

[Sephania]

Ephraim and Manasseh were gentiles, and therefore the "Israel of God, " when speaking of earthly Israel, cannot be considered only 'Jewish.'

How is Ephraim and Manasseh gentiles? They can be considered Hamite, but they all share the same grandfather, Israel.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hmm, where did Sha'ul declare he would be condemned for being Jewish? The Jewish nationis the Israel of G-d, some are believing now, some will in the future. I have a question concerning that and Jesus being the Sceptre/King of all Israel.

Was not the House/Nation of Judah/Jews the Sceptre of Israel, another words part of Israel but not "all" of Israel?
How do you view Matt 1:1 for example and the names in Blue and the names in red. I am confused on what who represents Jewish Israelites and non-Jewish Israelites? Thoughts?

Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: 2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers.

Reve 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David,

[Sephania]

I have a question concerning that and Jesus being the Sceptre/King of all Israel.

Was not the House/Nation of Judah/Jews the Sceptre of Israel, another words part of Israel but not "all" of Israel?
How do you view Matt 1:1 for example and the names in Blue and the names in red. I am confused on what who represents Jewish Israelites and non-Jewish Israelites? Thoughts?

Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: 2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers.

Reve 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, There was to be one Kingly line from Israel, one of the twelve from who would spring forth the rightful King, the King of Kings the son of David, the Root of Jesse his father.
Matt 1 is a geneology of the Messiah. This geneology is known as the Royal line to show His legitemacy to sit on the throne.

[Warrior4ChristAL]

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved..."

Romans 11:25-26


We are still in the "time of the Gentiles". One day God will remove the Gentiles / Bride, so that Israel might also take part in its own historical and prophetic ushering of the return of Messiah.

Until the day that their blinders are removed and the see the abomination of desolation sitting in the Temple will they not believe.

Right now only a handful of Jews are recognizing Yahushua as the Messiah. The orthodox Jews, most of them, will not believe until they see these prophecies be fulfilled.

Remember, the Messiah isn't going to come back and allow Israel to reject Him the 2nd time so He must first prepare their hearts to receive Him.

This is in God's perfect timing and only when these prophecies are fulfilled with the entire nation of Israel recognize the truth and their eyes be opened.

[Sephania]

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved..."

Romans 11:25-26


We are still in the "time of the Gentiles". One day God will remove the Gentiles / Bride, so that Israel might also take part in its own historical and prophetic ushering of the return of Messiah.

Until the day that their blinders are removed and the see the abomination of desolation sitting in the Temple will they not believe.

Right now only a handful of Jews are recognizing Yahushua as the Messiah. The orthodox Jews, most of them, will not believe until they see these prophecies be fulfilled.

Remember, the Messiah isn't going to come back and allow Israel to reject Him the 2nd time so He must first prepare their hearts to receive Him.

This is in God's perfect timing and only when these prophecies are fulfilled with the entire nation of Israel recognize the truth and their eyes be opened.



I strongly disagree with this, but you are not a MJF member so we can not debate this here.



MOD NOTE: Please remember our rulings regarding answering questions and teaching in this forum.

[Sephania]

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