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arunma
23rd December 2005, 03:05 AM
Today I read this Scripture, and it caused me to think about something.
When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? But you yourselves wrong and defraud--even your own brothers! Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:1-11, English Standard Version)
This passage from the word of God is often used to show God's displeasure over the sin of homosexuality. Now, let us make no mistake, homosexuality is a sin that we in the church should discourage in any way that we can, even among nonbelievers. But I think that the passage has a more pressing meaning which is usually ignored: lawsuits among believers (which is the section heading that most translations use). Here in America, over 80% of Americans claim to be Christians, and yet we sue each other. And I think that the American church ought to speak out against this moral evil.

The first thing I noticed is that the Apostle makes an implicit assumption that isn't true of the modern American church: that the ecclesiastical leadership has a means to deal with matters of law and justice within the church. Our blessed Lord himself made precisely the same assumption when he taught us how to deal with Christian brothers who sin against us (see St. Matthew 18:15-17). I've realized that no church that I know of, not even my own, has any way of dealing with legal matters. I think that if the Apostle were alive today, he would also ask us, "are you incompetent to try trivial cases?" I realize that lawsuits among believers usually take place between people who are parts of different congregations. But you'd think that if we are able to establish ecumenical fellowships across denominations, then we can at least have a mechanism to deal with disputes between the saints without resorting to the secular courts.

Besides that, I don't call the practice of suing brethren a moral evil without a Biblical basis. In America, how quick we are to commit the sin of greed. My rights, my property, and my constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness is more important than the Israel of God. Of course, we as Christians should be the first to know that the pursuit of secular, materialistic happiness is idolatry, because Colossians 3:5 associates idolatry with covetousness. More importantly, the teaching of the Apostles is more restrictive than the American constitution. Paul pleads, "Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?" And he uses rather harsh language towards those who sue believers, "When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?" I find myself asking the same question. Why do Christians rely on Gentiles to settle our disputes for us?

My real problem here is that the Bible actually tells us what to do. Paul says, "I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers?" Why, then, do American churches not appoint Christians to settle our disputes? I think this is a serious issue which American Christians should deal with. Does anybody else see the problem that I do?

Crazy Liz
23rd December 2005, 03:12 AM
Take a look at www.hispeace.org.

Flynmonkie
23rd December 2005, 03:23 AM
Yes, I have for a very long time for many-many reasons. I have assumed that in my life this is either what God is teaching me to share or learn. Because I am surrounded by this topic and I cannot seem to get away from it fast enough…

For the most part I do not agree with Lawsuits. However, I do agree that there are times when we may use this to protect ourselves. I believe it is in the heart of the believer. Unfortunately, I have dealt with too many of these situations over and over and over again -- like I said - testing at the very least.

Many I know think me to be stupid on not "taking everything I can get" out of situations. But for me, my faith in God outweighs this, in many situations.

If a company is suing you unjustly I believe God would want you to seek justice through the courts for protection - if deserved. However, the justice we seek I feel should fit in with Biblical terms. There can be no blanket statement there.

If a person is suing you unjustly, again I believe you should seek justice for protection, but initiating a lawsuit would be very hard for me. I have only done this twice in my life. Once a corporation. Another the Divorce.

Sometimes I have seen change because of the initiating of lawsuits. Other times I have seen no one come out the better or the wiser. But overall I do believe some sort of justice should be set into place here – it would be different if we were all Christians. I get the feeling that Paul is speaking of non-essential suits here though.

On the other hand my feelings towards Churches mingling in some of this bothers me tremendously. You would have to define where to draw the line. Recently we had a pastor on the news that knew of a Sunday school teacher in his late 30s whom was engaging in sex with a 14 year old. Yet, never came forward. The law caught up with the man, and they raked the pastor over the coals. There could be hundreds of scenarios. And think of the millions of churches out there, whom would set the standard? Think of the Jim Jones's out there... can you imagine how they would interpret the Bibles teaching. Or how about those churches that emphasize the Old Testament Jewish Law..eek -->scary don't you think?

Now, when it comes to civil situations --> may be. But I still shake my head to it all.

arunma
23rd December 2005, 03:29 AM
Actually Flynmonkie, I fully agree with you about suits involving corporations. Companies aren't Christian (they aren't even individual humans). Like you, I also think that this verse is most immediately applicable to civil lawsuits, of which America has no short supply.

Flynmonkie
23rd December 2005, 03:42 AM
Believe it or not recently we were discussing that very topic.

It is something that has me pondering. The companies my husband, our friends, and myself have worked for, or business dealings with, which have claimed to be Christian - have been the times we were, stung the hardest.

But I believe it is as I said before. When dealing with someone that says, "I'm a Christian" all of a sudden we seem to become "disarmed." Same with Church, you let your guard down while at church, thinking we are all of one mind --so therefore the hurt seems to be deeper..

I tend now to be more suspicious of business or business dealings with those whom claim Christianity at their backbone. Isn't that weird?

Liz that is a really good site, I never knew this existed!

arunma
23rd December 2005, 03:46 AM
Believe it or not recently we were discussing that very topic.

It is something that has me pondering. The companies my husband, our friends, and myself have worked for, or business dealings with, which have claimed to be Christian - have been the times we were, stung the hardest.

But I believe it is as I said before. When dealing with someone that says, "I'm a Christian" all of a sudden we seem to become "disarmed." Same with Church, you let your guard down while at church, thinking we are all of one mind --so therefore the hurt seems to be deeper..

I tend now to be more suspicious of business or business dealings with those whom claim Christianity at their backbone. Isn't that weird?

Liz that is a really good site, I never knew this existed!

It isn't weird at all. Fellow Christians are our family. From our blood relations, we know that it hurts the most when we are afflicted by our own family. But perhaps this is why Jesus said that many would say "Lord, Lord" to him, while not being a part of the Kingdom at all.

HumbleMan
23rd December 2005, 11:17 AM
I've always felt the reason behind that scripture was found in part two of the great Commandment- to love our neighbors. If we bring suit after suit, we are not setting the example of love, but instead of self centerdness and greed. In other words, we're not loving our fellow man if we keep suing him. And then, what does this do to our witness?

As far as the church having authority over believers in legal matters, it still can (as long as it's not criminal matters). There is no law saying that a person can't abide by a decision handed down by the church. We just have stopped going to the church for this. We place our complete trust in the legal and civil system created by man, not instituted by God.

Razorbuck
23rd December 2005, 12:18 PM
Here in America, over 80% of Americans claim to be Christians, and yet we sue each other. And I think that the American church ought to speak out against this moral evil.

Amen and amen.


The first thing I noticed is that the Apostle makes an implicit assumption that isn't true of the modern American church: that the ecclesiastical leadership has a means to deal with matters of law and justice within the church. Our blessed Lord himself made precisely the same assumption when he taught us how to deal with Christian brothers who sin against us (see St. Matthew 18:15-17). I've realized that no church that I know of, not even my own, has any way of dealing with legal matters. I think that if the Apostle were alive today, he would also ask us, "are you incompetent to try trivial cases?" I realize that lawsuits among believers usually take place between people who are parts of different congregations. But you'd think that if we are able to establish ecumenical fellowships across denominations, then we can at least have a mechanism to deal with disputes between the saints without resorting to the secular courts.

I agree there are very few better ways to blow our testimony as peaceable followers of the meek and humble Christ than to drag each other into the secular courts! I doubt very much however, that such a mechanism as you describe could ever be implemented across most denominational boundaries. If we disagree on points very nearly fundamental to the faith, will we find ourselves in agreement on points of civil law?

I believe that Paul's teaching here is for the local church. He says the "least esteemed" in the church should possess sufficient wisdom to judge these matters (I disagree with the ESV, NKJV, NASB, et al, rendering of 1 Cor. 6:4, and support the KJV and {shudder} NIV reading) and ergo, they should not be happening at all. In your excellent reference to Matthew 18:15-17, note that the dispute ends (worst case) with a brother now shunned as a "heathen and publican", but no mention of restoration of any material worth stemming from the original "trespass". (KJV) There is no hint of the church being granted the power to enforce a judgment, but simply to make one. If the offending party doesn't restore, he has given up his fellowship with the family of God (a heavy burden indeed, once upon a time) but the offended party now drops the matter altogether, as you correctly point out from Scripture:


More importantly, the teaching of the Apostles is more restrictive than the American constitution. Paul pleads, "Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?" And he uses rather harsh language towards those who sue believers, "When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?"

So while I don't see a call for any type of ecumenical body to reside over these types of disputes in this passage, I heartily agree that our local churches should be much more effective in their outcry against such puerile behaviour in the body of our blessed Saviour.

not worthy but His,

Razorbuck