Quesiton about UMC doctrine...

[BrotherSteve]

I am not very familiar with the UMC. I am mostly a fundamentalist in my beliefs but not as fundamental as many Independent Baptist...my question is this:

What is it that defines the UMC doctrine?

I went to www.umc.org and read through the doctrinal statement and it seems very similar to what one would find on most Baptist websites. Surely there are some subtle differences that set the UMC apart - as there are with any denomination. Can someone please tell me what they are? Thanks.

[Hediru]

There are many similarities and differences between the UMC and other denominations. The biggest difference that I know of between us and the Baptists is the view on baptism. We believe that baptism is the initiation into Christ's church, and therefore, we do baptize infants. Baptists believe that baptism should be a choice and therefore will not baptize anyone under a certain age. Instead, in the UMC has confirmation and reaffirmation services where a person commits themselves to God and becomes a member of the church. If there are other specific questions you have, PM me, and I'll try to help the best I can.

[Jadis40]

What specifically are you asking about?

If there's something that you want clarified, please let us know :)

One thing I can think of is that on our offical website, they have this link about communion:

http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1341

[Law of Loud]

Not being familiar with Baptists, I can't offer you much insight into where we differ from them. As far as it goes though, I do recall that at a Chrysalis (about 90% Methodist) I worked at, an Anabaptist (I believe, might have been a Baptist) about shock-and-awed the cats... they didn't really take what he said, but as I hear he surprised them pretty well, and that lecture got mentioned throughout the staff. So... in whatever methods we differ, I know there's more than just baptism, as I don't imagine a discussion on baptism would shock Methodists like what I was told. Of course... Anabaptists might be totally different than Baptists... I'm not familiar with them at all. As it stands, I also live near Seattle, which isn't the same Methodist Church you find in the South.

[BrotherSteve]

What specifically are you asking about?

If there's something that you want clarified, please let us know :)

One thing I can think of is that on our offical website, they have this link about communion:

http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1341

thanks for the replys.

now I see some differences about Baptism and communion: infant vs. adult and spirtual presence vs. rememberance.

what does the UMC believe about:

1. Divinity of Christ
2. Trinity
3. saved by grace through faith - not works based
4. spiritual gifts - sometimes called 'sign gifts'
5. OSAS

thanks

[BrotherSteve]

Another question. I was looking around the UMC webpage and it had this on the FAQ's:


Q: Does baptism mean that I am saved?

A: No, salvation is a lifelong process during which we must continue to respond to God's grace. Baptism offers the promise that the Holy Spirit will always be working in our lives, but salvation requires our acceptance of that grace, trust in Christ, and ongoing growth in holiness as long as we live.


"salvation requires ... ongoing growth in holiness as long as we live"



This sounds like the UMC believes that if you stop growing in holiness you will loose your salvation? Am I missing something?

[Law of Loud]

All of my answers come out of what I learned. There are likely theological differences between various churches and conferences, though these should be similiar.

1. Divinity of Christ

Jesus Christ was entirely divine and entirely human.

2. Trinity

God is one God in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. saved by grace through faith - not works based

Let me quote you something from Wikipedia as it seems to explain this stance well enough.
The key emphases of Wesley's theology relates to how Divine grace operates within the individual. Wesley defined the Way of Salvation as the operation of grace in three parts: Prevenient Grace, Justifying Grace, and Sanctifying Grace. Prevenient Grace is that grace that convicts an individual of his or her own sinfulness and of the need to be reconciled to God. This grace is available everywhere and to everyone, and 'pre-vents', that is "comes before", inviting the person into repentance. Once repentant, the individual is pardoned of all sin and justified by God's Justifying Grace, defined as "the work of God for us in Jesus Christ". The repentant believer thus receives an assurance of salvation and begins the process of Sanctification, a growth not only in personal holiness (acts of piety and worship), but also in Social Holiness through acts of charity, mercy, and social justice. This growth in the individual is made possible by God's Sanctifying Grace, defined as "the work of God in us through the Holy Spirit". Wesleyan theology maintains that salvation is the act of God's grace entirely, from invitation, to pardon, to growth in holiness.

For Wesley, good works were the fruit of one's salvation, not the way in which that salvation was earned. Faith and good works go hand in hand in Methodist theology.



4. spiritual gifts - sometimes called 'sign gifts'

I can't tell you if there aren't parts of the Methodist Church that have an interest in spiritual gifts or sign gifts, but I've heard of nothing of that sort, and would be surprised if the Methodist Church took much interest in them.

5. OSAS

No, salvation is a lifelong process during which we must continue to respond to God's grace. Baptism offers the promise that the Holy Spirit will always be working in our lives, but salvation requires our acceptance of that grace, trust in Christ, and ongoing growth in holiness as long as we live.

The most important part of that I bolded, but more or less what I've come to learn from the Methodist Church is that although you are saved by God's grace, you must continue to respond to God's grace throughout your life. We don't believe in OSAS, because people once saved may still throw their salvation away by rejecting God.

I probably butchered my explanations here, but I hope it helps.

[Qyöt27]

I can't tell you if there aren't parts of the Methodist Church that have an interest in spiritual gifts or sign gifts, but I've heard of nothing of that sort, and would be surprised if the Methodist Church took much interest in them.
Yes, there are charismatic Methodists, but I assume they are a minority and isolated to Southern areas where Pentecostal churches have a lot of influence. My grandmother remembers our church having a charismatic pastor some 20 years ago or something like that, and apparently there were problems stirred up by some of the members that participated in the meetings and as far as I know, we haven't had one since (certainly not for as long as I can remember, which is some 15 years or so).

An important thing that distinguishes Methodists from Baptists is how the respective denominations came about. Baptists were largely products of the Protestant Reformation in Luther's time and separated from the Catholic Church. Methodism began as a revival within the Church of England and was never intended to be separate from Anglicanism, but Wesley's hand got forced due to politics (both national and within the CoE). He never stopped serving as an Anglican priest, though.

Also, the main section of the FAQ on the UMC website provides answers for other questions on different topics:
http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=16&mid=1244

[herev]

let me offer some "clarification" if you don't mind


For Wesley, good works were the fruit of one's salvation, not the way in which that salvation was earned. Faith and good works go hand in hand in Methodist theology.

true, though we must NEVER confuse works theology with what Wesley believed--that we are saved through faith and by Grace and grace alone.




No, salvation is a lifelong process during which we must continue to respond to God's grace. This is not exactly true. Justifying Grace (as you listed above) is the grace by which we are saved--it is an instantaneous experience. Sanctification--through sanctifying grace is a lifelong process.
The best example I've always heard: Picture a house
Outside the house--all the way up to the front door, you are pursued by Prevenient Grace, you are not saved, but God is reaching out to you, pursuing you, inviting you.
The doorframe is Justifying Grace. As you step from outside to inside the house, you are justified by grace and have salvation.
Onde inside the house, there is much "to explore" You are in the process of sanctification and it is here that the lifetime experience and process takes place.
But Justifying Grace is momentary--there is a before and after for us.


Baptism offers the promise that the Holy Spirit will always be working in our lives, but salvation requires our acceptance of that grace, trust in Christ yes, true

and ongoing growth in holiness as long as we live.
not quite right again. This is sanctification, not justification. We are not justified by our own works or our own growth towards sanctification, but by christ's blood alone.
The most important part of that I bolded, but more or less what I've come to learn from the Methodist Church is that although you are saved by God's grace, you must continue to respond to God's grace throughout your life. We don't believe in OSAS, because people once saved may still throw their salvation away by rejecting God. It's not that you MUST continue to respond, it is that Wesley believed this was EVIDENCE of your justification. And yes, you are correct, we do not believe in OSAS; we do acknowledge that one can throw it away.


I probably butchered my explanations here, but I hope it helps.
I think your answers were great, I just wanted to clarify a difficlut topic. Before studying this at seminary for three years, I'm not sure I could have explained it any better.
Hope you don't mind my "clarifications."
God bless

[Law of Loud]

I think your answers were great, I just wanted to clarify a difficlut topic. Before studying this at seminary for three years, I'm not sure I could have explained it any better.
Hope you don't mind my "clarifications."
God bless

Actually, I really appreciate it. Being born into a Methodist Church where sunday school taught you about charity and confirmation class was actually more effective in teaching me what Catholics, Lutherans, and Jews believed than what Methodists believed (though they did a good job explaining the church heirarchy and the church history), I didn't get a very good indoctrination into Methodism. It didn't help that matter that the only person in my family who was interested in discussing faith was my dad, who is a Roman Catholic.

So, most of my understanding of Methodism is based off my recent looking into it, and there's sure to be mistakes. I really appreciate having somebody learned in the matter clarify what I messed up on.

[Artos]

Yes, there are charismatic Methodists, but I assume they are a minority and isolated to Southern areas where Pentecostal churches have a lot of influence. My grandmother remembers our church having a charismatic pastor some 20 years ago or something like that, and apparently there were problems stirred up by some of the members that participated in the meetings and as far as I know, we haven't had one since (certainly not for as long as I can remember, which is some 15 years or so).




In Asia, Latin America and Africa, a number of Methodist churches are charismatic. More than three quarters of my conference's pastors are either charismatic or very open to it. We do pray in tongues, exercise gifts of knowledge, prophecy, healing, do ministries of inner healing and deliverance....etc.

[BrotherSteve]

Thankyou all very much for the responses - this helps very much.

God Bless.