Remembering my experience with a Nazarene church

[chrismon]

When I was quite young my father took our family to a Nazarene church. If I recall correctly, Nazarenes have a doctrine by which they believe that once you "are saved" you are fully enabled for a sinless life. Is my memory correct? If this is not the case, the rest of this post is moot. At any rate, I found that people were always secretive about their lives because of the potential embarassment of others in the church learning about anothers sin and so questioning anothers salvation - after all, were you "saved", you'd be sinless. As I look back this all seemed grounds for people to posture during worship services. Some folks sang loud, some always had to speak in tongues. One person's prophecy was more important than anothers. I just recall it being a very fractured community with little trust and no transparency.

To me, this would seem to be a natural consequence of such doctrine for human beings growing in their salvation. All the programming of pride and posturing from before we encounter Jesus runs deep and takes time to unlearn all of the garbage while also learning that we can simply trust him.

My question for the Nazarenes (and others too, I suppose) is what would it look like / how is it possible to have a community with such a doctrine (that one can be and should be sinless) and have honest and transparent community, for after all, I have yet to meet a church community devoid of sinners.

[HeatherJay]

When I was quite young my father took our family to a Nazarene church. If I recall correctly, Nazarenes have a doctrine by which they believe that once you "are saved" you are fully enabled for a sinless life. Is my memory correct? If this is not the case, the rest of this post is moot. At any rate, I found that people were always secretive about their lives because of the potential embarassment of others in the church learning about anothers sin and so questioning anothers salvation - after all, were you "saved", you'd be sinless. As I look back this all seemed grounds for people to posture during worship services. Some folks sang loud, some always had to speak in tongues. One person's prophecy was more important than anothers. I just recall it being a very fractured community with little trust and no transparency.

To me, this would seem to be a natural consequence of such doctrine for human beings growing in their salvation. All the programming of pride and posturing from before we encounter Jesus runs deep and takes time to unlearn all of the garbage while also learning that we can simply trust him.

My question for the Nazarenes (and others too, I suppose) is what would it look like / how is it possible to have a community with such a doctrine (that one can be and should be sinless) and have honest and transparent community, for after all, I have yet to meet a church community devoid of sinners.
Well, I can only speak for my own church and the several other Nazarene churches I've attended. We do not believe that being saved makes you sinless. I think what you're referring to is our doctrine of entire sanctification. We belive entire sanctification to be a second work of grace...the first work of grace being the gift of salvation. So, no, being saved does not entirely sanctify you, either.

Entire sanctification is a complicated piece of doctrine to explain, especially for someone like me who's no theological expert. But the idea that we become "sinless" is false...that's not what we believe. Think of it this way. We're born with a heart inclined to sin (thanks to Adam and Eve)...we believe that through a right relationship with the Lord and through His grace that it is possible for our hearts to be once more inclined toward the Lord and away from our sinful nature. It's through no work of our own that we can achieve this...it's totally a God thing...a second gift of grace. We do not become sinless...it's more of an idea of being able to rise above our sinful natures and having our hearts turned away from sin and back toward God. But it's all about choice...the choice to sin or not to sin is always there whether you're sanctified or not.

Also, the church of the Nazarene is not considered charismatic...so we generally don't have people speaking in tongues or prophecying during service. Certainly, we leave the opportunity open if someone felt so moved by the Lord to do so...but I've never seen anything like that happen. We have so "amens" here and there during service, but that's about the extent of our rowdiness. ;)

I don't know if I've been entirely sanctified, personally. I know I'm saved...and I know that I'm walking closer with the Lord than I ever have before in my life. For me it's all about trying to be better tomorrow than i was today. And even though it's one of the defining doctrines of our church, it's not something that people go around bragging about or showing off in the way of posturing. After all, that in itself would be sinful, wouldn't it...pride.

My church family is very genuine and transparent. Our folks have struggles and flaws and we're in need of repentence just like everybody else. It's not about being sinless, you know. We're commanded to "be holy, just as the Father in heaven is holy." And that verse right there is the basis of our doctrine. Our hope and prayer is to be holy...not necessarily to be sinless.

Whew...I probably did a horrible job of explaining that. You can also look up entire sanctification, Christian perfection. Here's the link to our official Church of the Nazarene website : www.nazarene.org (http://www.nazarene.org)

There ARE churches out there that have a strong belief in the type of doctrine that you spoke about. But, not so much the church of the Nazarene...there are other churches in the "holiness movement" that hold on to such beliefs, though. You can do a serach for "american holiness movement" and you'll probably find some names of specific denominations that hold such beliefs.

Welcome to CF. :wave:

[chrismon]

HeatherJay,

that was great! Thanks for all the info, I'll be sure to study further. Also, thanks for not being immediately defensive but taking my story and questions seriously.

chrismon

[ParaCristo]

Good job explaining Heather!!!........After reading your Post you said that you didn't know if you are Sanctified.....And since it is a second work of Grace, I would imagine that if you we're, you would know?.....mine was almost like a "being saved a second time" experience for me....also I totally agree with your point of working daily to be more "like-Christ"....we all have to do that don't we!!!!

[toklatkate]

Heather,
I agree, that you did well in your explanation. I have been a Nazarene for about 34 1/2 yrs. I have never heard "tongues" used in any of our services, or been told that we are to be sinless, but that we are to strive to turn away from temptaion and sin,. And, yes, that sanctification does change our "want to" so that we turn more to God and more away from sin. And if we do sin, repent immediately, and get back on track with God.
Toklatkate

[desert_island_1]

Heather, You said what I was trying to get into words as I was reading the origianl post! Good Job!

Kristy

[ContraMundum]

Heather,

There's a bug in the system that doesn't allow me to give you reputation right now. Consider it done, therefore, in spirit. Good post.

[Combatchuc11]

I just wanted to add that John Wesley himself said that even if he was "sanctified" that he would never consider himself sanctified or perfect and that in fact that his very saying that he was sanctified would be proof of his lack of santification.

My point is: don't let the term sanctification become a burden to you. Instead, I recommend focusing on the "choose this who you will serve" part of the bible as your daily guide. That way, there's no worries as to whether or not your "sanctified".

[HeatherJay]

I just wanted to add that John Wesley himself said that even if he was "sanctified" that he would never consider himself sanctified or perfect and that in fact that his very saying that he was sanctified would be proof of his lack of santification.

My point is: don't let the term sanctification become a burden to you. Instead, I recommend focusing on the "choose this who you will serve" part of the bible as your daily guide. That way, there's no worries as to whether or not your "sanctified".
Good advice...thanks. :) And welcome to CF and Wesley's Parish. :wave:

[Brotha Ballew]

I think a big part of it is not using your imperfection as an excuse to sin, because then, when tempted, you'll just say, "im human, and humans mess up." But that is to make sin ok, when sin is indeed not ok: The wages of sin is death.

[HeatherJay]

I think a big part of it is not using your imperfection as an excuse to sin, because then, when tempted, you'll just say, "im human, and humans mess up." But that is to make sin ok, when sin is indeed not ok: The wages of sin is death.
You're avatar is SO SCARY! :eek:

:D:D

[cougtpt1]

We had a very lengthy discussion in our church about entire sanctification. For the most part we all became more confused. I did get from the conversation that for some people it happens in a moment like a saving moment but for most people it is a process of coming to live as Jesus commands us. If anyone has a very real story of becomming entirly sanctified that would be great.

[IndianaJesusfreak]

I've always thought that if I ever acheive perfection here on earth a firey charriot would swoop down and take me to heaven. I believe that being sanctified means being whole-heartedly devoted to the Lord. You see so many people repent of their sins and go on to live a luke warm life spiritually. If you are sanctified you are set apart from the rest of the world to be God's child. That doesn't mean you will be perfect and sinless. But it does mean that your sin will be detestable to you. You will not delight in it.
My own experience was that of seeking the Lord whole-heartedly for over a month. I was comsumed with a hunger and thirst for righteousness. God came to me in a mighty way at 8:58 p.m. one night just a week before Easter. A couple of months later I was talking to an older man from another church and I told him that I had recently been filled with the Holy Spirit and I was just overflowing. He told me, "That will last for a month or two and you will gradually get back to normal."
That night I got on my knees and begged the Lord to not let that happen. It's been about 5 years and I'm still overflowing.

[we5frogs]

I was comsumed with a hunger and thirst for righteousness.

A couple of months later I was talking to an older man from another church and I told him that I had recently been filled with the Holy Spirit and I was just overflowing. He told me, "That will last for a month or two and you will gradually get back to normal."

That night I got on my knees and begged the Lord to not let that happen. It's been about 5 years and I'm still overflowing.

Wow - I'm with you IndianaJesusfreak!!! :thumbsup:

I don't ever, ever want to go back to what I thought was 'normal' before I emptied myself completely, and begged the Holy Spirit to fill me up. I too am overflowing, and I it just gets stronger every day. :clap:

[silentpoet]

Along the lines of this topic I think the real breakthrough is when we internalize that we in and of ourselves cannot overcome sin. That for that reason we absolutely need Jesus and God sent Him knowing our abject need. And God will deliver us, but I think we need to come as I said to the point where we realize it is not our efforts that overcome.