Is Jesus 100% MAN and 100% GOD?

[edpobre]

Friends,

Most Catholics and Protestants believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man or true God and true man. Some even believe that Jesus is the only true God. Still others believe that Jesus is both the Father and the son.

Jesus says he is a man (John 8:40) and the Father is the only true God (John 17:3).

Inspite of this, however, people still say that Jesus is God. Thus, if Jesus is God, is he 100% man and 100% God at the SAME time?

Please elaborate on your answer.

Ed

[ZoneChaos]

Obviously, I answered 100% both. :)

And to clarify:

Some even believe that Jesus is the only true God

I believe this, and also beleive that The Father and the Holy Spirit are also the only true God.

Still others believe that Jesus is both the Father and the son.


This I do not believe. There is no biblical support for this.

Jesus says he is a man (John 8:40) and the Father is the only true God (John 17:3).

Niether statement is in dispute, on this forum, to my knowledge.

Inspite of this, however, people still say that Jesus is God.

Interesting you choose to say "in spite of". That would suggst that those who beleive Jesus is God, do not beleive the above statements you made. I do acep them. It in's "in spite of" those statements. I accept all three as true: Jesus is the Son, The Father is God. Jesus is God.

Thus, if Jesus is God, is he 100% man and 100% God at the SAME time?


Yes!

[Schrack]

"Inspite of this, however, people still say that Jesus is God."

Hey Ed, people only say because the Bible does:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righeousness is the scepter of thy kingdom." Heb. 1:8

Now Jeremiah quoted God as saying "Cursed be the man who puts his trust in man," yet the Psalmist said "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they who put their trust in him.

I guess that's why Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God."

Now I realize that there will always be some people who will never quite understand how this is all possible, but for those who exercise their faith, they believe that with God nothing is impossible.

SchracktheBaptist

[Flower]

I see Christ as being man and God,.....or better said,..God in the flesh. He was man (flesh), but He was also God. Having the full measure of the Spirit He was able to live by the spirit and not succumb to the flesh. That is the only way, being without sin, He was able to be the lamb, the perfect sacrifice, for our sins.

He was not half man, half God. He was not all man, and He was not all God.

I have heard this explained in comparison to the ark of the covenant. That wood box, representing the flesh,....was covered with pure gold, representing the Spirit (God). Did the wood become the gold? NO. Did they gold mesh with the wood? NO. Well, something like that. Food for thought. :)

[edpobre]

Schrackthebaptist,

You wrote: Blessed are all they who put their trust in him.

Who is the "him" whom you are referring to? You seem to project the impression that you have put your trust in "him." Are you referring to: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Thomas, God or Jesus?

I don't believe you are referring to God because if you do, then I would say that you HAVEN'T put your trust in Him. God commands that people LISTEN to His son (Matt. 17:5). Obviously God is referring to Jesus. And I know you have NOT been listening to Jesus. You have been listening to FALSE teachers who teach you FALSE teachings about Jesus.

I don't believe you are referring to Jesus either because if you do, then I would say that you HAVEN'T put your trust in him either. Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3,1). Yet you INSIST that Jesus is God.

Why DON'T you TRUST Jesus Schrack yet write that "Blessed are those who put their trust in him?" Aren't you being HYPOCRITAL or what?

Ed

[edpobre]

Flower,

You wrote: I see Christ as being man and God,.....or better said,..God in the flesh. He was man (flesh), but He was also God. Having the full measure of the Spirit He was able to live by the spirit and not succumb to the flesh. That is the only way, being without sin, He was able to be the lamb, the perfect sacrifice, for our sins.

He was not half man, half God. He was not all man, and He was not all God.

I have heard this explained in comparison to the ark of the covenant. That wood box, representing the flesh,....was covered with pure gold, representing the Spirit (God). Did the wood become the gold? NO. Did they gold mesh with the wood? NO. Well, something like that. Food for thought.

Whoever you heard this story from is a FALSE teacher because apostle Paul "...speaks NOT in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor. 2:13).

God says MAN is FLESH (Gen. 6:3). Jesus says GOD is SPIRIT (John 4:24). Jesus says a SPIRIT does NOT have FLESH and BONES as he has (Luke 24:39).

Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). The word "ONLY" means "no one else" is God besides the FATHER.

God says there is "no God beside Him" and "there is none like him" (Isaiah 44:8; Isaiah 46:9). God also says that "before Him there was NO God formed, NEITHER shall there be AFTER Him" (Isaiah 43:10).

The Bible IDENTIFIES the Father ONLY as the God who created us all (Isaiah 63:16; Isaiah 64:8; Malachi 2:10; 1 Cor. 8:6; John 17:3).

While it is true that nothing is impossible with God, does God want to be a MAN? No! God does NOT want to be a man and will NOT break His word regarding this issue (Num. 23:19).

Does God allow a MAN to be God? No! (Ezekiel 28:2).

Ed

[edpobre]

ZoneChaos,

You wrote: Interesting you choose to say "in spite of". That would suggst that those who beleive Jesus is God, do not beleive the above statements you made. I do acep them. It in's "in spite of" those statements. I accept all three as true: Jesus is the Son, The Father is God. Jesus is God.

I wish I could get into your head and see what you see in John 8:40 and John 17:3. In John 8:40, Jesus says he is a MAN. In John 17:3,1 Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

You say you believe what these verses are saying yet you INSIST that Jesus, the SON is God. Isn't this weird?

God says there is NO God beside Him (Isaiah 44::cool: . God says there is none like him (Isaiah 46:9). God says there was NO God before him NOR there will be any God AFTER Him (Isaiah 43:10).

The Bible IDENTIFIES the Father ONLY as the ONLY ONE God (Isaiah 63:16; Isaih 64:8; Malachi 2:10; 1 Cor. 8:6).

Yet, inspite of these overwhelming evidence, professing Christians who are professing Bible-believers and claim to have accepted Jesus as their Lord INSIST on believing the LIE that FALSE teachers have perpetuated for centuries now - Jesus (the SON) is God!

I wrote: Thus, if Jesus is God, is he 100% man and 100% God at the SAME time?

Your reply:Yes!

Tell me Zone, how can one fill an empty 1-gallon jar with 100% water and 100% oil at the same time?

Ed

[Flower]

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


There is says it just as plain as day.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the WORD and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.14. And the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
MATTHEW 1:23 Christ is called “Immanuel” - “God with us.”

I TIMOTHY 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.”

COLOSSIANS 2:9 “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead (divinity) in bodily form.”

ISAIAH 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.”

I CORINTHIANS 15:47 “The Second Man is the Lord from heaven.”

JOHN 20:26-29 Thomas called Christ “My Lord and My God.” (Christ did not correct him.)

JOHN 10:30-33 (Christ speaking) “'I and my Father are one....’ The Jews answered Him, saying, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Funny, but the very reason the Jews crucified him was for claiming to be God, as it states in this last verse. Yet today you deny this. Hummmm then they would not have cruicified him for blasphemy.

[ZoneChaos]

Isn't this weird?


o your and your church maybe, but not my me and mine.

God says there is NO God beside Him (Isaiah 44: . God says there is none like him (Isaiah 46:9). God says there was NO God before him NOR there will be any God AFTER Him (Isaiah 43:10).


And the concept of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all being this ONe God that these verses mention do not contradict those verses. There is truly only one God.

The Bible IDENTIFIES the Father ONLY as the ONLY ONE God (Isaiah 63:16; Isaih 64:8; Malachi 2:10; 1 Cor. 8:6).

Ok.. lets look at these verses...

Isaiah 63:16 "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting."

I am failoing to see the "Father only as the Only one God" here.. can you point it out? I see that God is our Father : "Doubtless thou [Jehovah] art our father..."

Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."

Same as 63:16.. I do not see The father being depicted as the Only one who is God.

Malachi 2:10 "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?"

Again.. one Father, and one God.. but not the one father being the only one who is God.

I Corinthians 8:6 "But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him."

One Gid.. no dispute there. That one God is the Father. No dispute there... Again I fail to see where you are getting "only the father is the only true God". I do not see that said in any of these verses... What verses does say this? can you show me? Maybe this belief of yours is false?

Tell me Zone, how can one fill an empty 1-gallon jar with 100% water and 100% oil at the same time?
This is a very crude and inadequate analogy.. however... for the sake of your aegument.. I wil look at it.. but first.. let me ask you, as Trinity FGod is both spuernatural and natural... (the beleif that Jesus is both man and God), then, in your analogy is either water or oil supernatural?

Think about your analogy.. you are comparing very simple physical substances to a God that has no limits or boundaries in the physical world... your analogy is pointless to say the least.

A beter one would be a 3 color projector... Red Green Blue.. all sperate, and yet they create one white light. Is the light Red? Yes. Is the light Blue? Yes. Is the Light Green yes.. for it can't be whote without one of thses, and yet it is also white.

[LouisBooth]

just one verse you have yet to answer ed...Col 2:9 "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..."

[Schrack]

Hey Ed,

I seem to remember we've gone the rounds on this discussion quite some time ago, haven't we? I see nothing has changed.

In any event, the answer to your question lies in the text itself: blessed are all they who put their trust in the Son. This explains why he is called both the Son of God and the Son of man, because God came into the world as a man, and his name was Jesus Christ. The Word, who was God, became flesh. Angels worshipped him, as did men, like Thomas, who said unto him "My Lord and my God." To deny who this man Jesus was, therefore, is to deny him altogether. The Bible says he is God; Ed says he was not. Who am I to believe? Certainly not you.

SchracktheBaptist

[Archieve]

Where does the bible reads Jesus is God?

No where!

[ZoneChaos]

Where does it read Jesus is not God?

You assume that Jesus is not God becas the Bible doe snot have the exact words "Jesus is God".. but this acceptacne does not mesh with the many verses that give evidence to the contrary.

[Archieve]

ZoneChaos, the bible makes it clear as to who Jesus is. It lets you know that Jesus is the Son of God

Common sense would let anyone know that if you are the son of someone that you aren't that person.

I am my mother's daughter, I am not my mother.

[ZoneChaos]

ZoneChaos, the bible makes it clear as to who Jesus is. It lets you know that Jesus is the Son of God

Common sense would let anyone know that if you are the son of someone that you aren't that person.

I am my mother's daughter, I am not my mother.

You need to study the greek more... Anytime Jesus is referred to the Son of God.. the "God" in that statement is the Greek word "Theos". This word is defined as the Trinity Godhead.

In that.. the Son.. a member of the trinity can be the son of the Father, a member of the trinity..and yet both can be the trinity.

A good analogy is this: A household. Mother, Father, and Daughter. All three are the household. As you are begotten of our MOther, you are also begotten of the Household. No you ar enot your mother, as Jesus is not his Father, but you are begotten of the Household, as Jesus is begotten of God.

[edpobre]

Flower,

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

There is says it just as plain as day.

Open your eyes Flower. Does the verse say they are one "God?" The verse ends at the word "one." You are seeing something that is NOT in the verse. The verse says there are three that bear record. And they are one "in agreement" - not "God."

Anyway, this verse is spurious if you know what that means. This verse is found only in the King James Version and is NOT found in any original manuscript BEFORE the 16th century.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the WORD and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.14. And the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:1 is NOT a description of Jesus. It is John's figurative way of describing God's EXPRESSED idea, plan or promise. 1 Peter 1:20 tells us that Jesus was foreordained (or appointed in advance) before the foundations of the world. Specificlly, John was describing God's promises recorded in Gen. 3:15; Gen. 17:7; Deut. 18:18 and Isaiah 7:14.

The phrase "and the WORD was God" is John's figurative way of describing the power or CERTAINTY of the fulfillment of God's promises.

John 1:2-5 definitely refer to Jesus but John 1:14 refers to the FULFILLMENT of God's promise regarding the birth of Jesus as promised in Isaiah 7:14.

MATTHEW 1:23 Christ is called “Immanuel” - “God with us.”

The name describes Jesus' mission of "bringing people back to God." One who ABIDES in the doctrines of Christ HAS God (2 John 9).

I TIMOTHY 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.”

This means that God was made evident through the miracles, wonders and signs which He did through Chriust (Acts 2:22).

COLOSSIANS 2:9 “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead (divinity) in bodily form.”

The KJV is the only Bible where the word "Godhead" appears. Other versions of the Bible renders it as "divine nature" which does NOT mean "God." It only defines the righteousness and holiness of Christ who was sanctified or purified by God (John 10:36).

ISAIAH 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.”

This is a MIS-TRANSLATION but you won't believe it. So let's go to Scriptures and ask ourselves whether we should believe this or not.

Matthew 17:5 commands us to LISTEN to Jesus. Jesus says he who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already (John 3:1:cool: .

Jesus commands everyone NOT to call anyone on earth Father because we have one Father who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9).

Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40).

Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). This EXCLUDES Jesus as God.

I CORINTHIANS 15:47 “The Second Man is the Lord from heaven.”

The verse says MAN, not God. Open your eyes please.

JOHN 20:26-29 Thomas called Christ “My Lord and My God.” (Christ did not correct him.)

Let me ask you a question that requires only common sense for an answer. Let's say jaywalking is prohibited by law and you jaywalk. But a policeman who saw you did not issue you a summons. In fact, he even smiled at you. Does that mean the law on jaaywalking is revoked at that instant?

Thomas was simply mistaken in supposing that Jesus is God.

Only the son (meaning Jesus) can reveal who the Father is (Luke 10:22) and he has revealed that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3).

Jesus is the SAVIOR - not Thomas. Listen to Jesus and believe him, NOT Thomas.

JOHN 10:30-33 (Christ speaking) “'I and my Father are one....’ The Jews answered Him, saying, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

The Pharisees knew that Jesus is a MAN (see verse). They THOUGHT he was CLAIMING equality with God (meaning of blasphemy) when he said God is his Father (John 10:36).

Funny, but the very reason the Jews crucified him was for claiming to be God, as it states in this last verse. Yet today you deny this. Hummmm then they would not have cruicified him for blasphemy.

The Pharisees were MISTAKEN in thinking that Jesus, being a MAN, was claiming to be God. Their charge of blasphemy is correct but their BASIS for charging him with blasphemy is WRONG. As you can read in John 10:36, Jesus NEVER claimed he was God. He only said "I am the son of God."

And in this way, you are like a Pharisee for thinking that Jesus is God because he says God is his Father.

Ed

[Flower]

It pretty clearly says in verse 14 the WORD became FLESH.

And 1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the HolyGhost: and these three are one.

It says very clearly without any trouble my understanding, THESE THREE ARE ONE.

I don't know what else it would take to understsand except the Spirit's guidance. Obviously you have hardened your heart and do not wish to see these things.

I think lots of scholars from years past have seen this truth....lots continue to do so. If you don't then well, that is between you and your God that shares his worship and praise with another man, or creation, or another god. However you wish to explain it. I don't think anyone could pay the penalty of my sins except God Himself. In the bible it says there will be those that preach another Jesus. To me in the case of the denial of his deity, this is one of those times.

It is so simple for those of the Spirit. This is why Jesus often spoke these words. Those that have ears let them hear. Well, everyone has ears huh? But they not all hear. All have eyes,..but do not see. Only through the guidance of the Spirit will these things be revealed unto you.

If you are Christian, then you should read the prophecy of God becoming flesh....the name Immanuel. Only God can forgive sins, and is to be worshiped. Yet it is ok for us to worship Jesus "because He is one with God". Well, I think the seeds have been sown. It is up to God if he will reveal truth or keep it hidden.

[edpobre]

Flower,

It pretty clearly says in verse 14 the WORD became FLESH.

Do you see JESUS in this verse? The WORD (God's SPOKEN or EXPRESSED idea, plan or promise) that BECAME flesh - NOT God who SPOKE the WORD.

And 1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the HolyGhost: and these three are one.

It says very clearly without any trouble my understanding, THESE THREE ARE ONE.

Yes Flower, I agree that it's very clear that these three are one. But WHAT one are they? You say they are ONE "God." I say they are ONE "in agreement." And you tell me you are right and I am wrong. What is your basis? Your basis is what the FALSE teachers taught you.

My basis is John 8:40 and John 17:3 where Jesus says he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

I don't know what else it would take to understsand except the Spirit's guidance. Obviously you have hardened your heart and do not wish to see these things.

Obviously you have HARDENED your heart Flower. You don't even recognize the voice of Jesus anymore.

I think lots of scholars from years past have seen this truth....lots continue to do so. If you don't then well, that is between you and your God that shares his worship and praise with another man, or creation, or another god. However you wish to explain it. I don't think anyone could pay the penalty of my sins except God Himself. In the bible it says there will be those that preach another Jesus. To me in the case of the denial of his deity, this is one of those times.

1 Cor. 11:3-4 tells us that in latter days, FALSE teachers will preach ANOTHER Jesus whom the apostles DID NOT preach.

Apostle Paul PREACHED that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). If you can't see his Flower, you are BLIND.

Apostle Paul PREACHED that the FATHER is the ONLY God of Christians (1 Cor. 8:6).

Apostles Paul and Peter PREACHED that Jesus HAS a God AND Father (Co. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3).

FALSE teachers PREACH that Jesus is God and God is composed of three persons, the Father plus the Son plus the Holy Spirit. The apostles PREACHED only ONE God in ONLY ONE person, the FATHER.

Whose heart is hardened Flower?

It is so simple for those of the Spirit. This is why Jesus often spoke these words. Those that have ears let them hear. Well, everyone has ears huh? But they not all hear. All have eyes,..but do not see. Only through the guidance of the Spirit will these things be revealed unto you.

Look who's talking!

If you are Christian, then you should read the prophecy of God becoming flesh....the name Immanuel. Only God can forgive sins, and is to be worshiped. Yet it is ok for us to worship Jesus "because He is one with God". Well, I think the seeds have been sown. It is up to God if he will reveal truth or keep it hidden.

Flower, a Christian is one who BELIEVES Jesus and ABIDES in his words (Acts 11:26; John 8:31). If you DON'T believe what Jesus says, you are NOT a Christian even if you THINK you are.

God GAVE Jesus the authority to forgive sins (Mark 2:10; Acts 5:31). God COMMANDED angels to worship Jesus (Heb. 1:6) and GAVE Jesus a name that at his name all knees should bow to the GLORY of God the Father (Phil. 2:9-11).

Did God COMMAND angels to worship Jesus because Jesus is God? NO! Does God COMMAND men to bow at the name of Jedsus because Jesus is God? NO!

The TRUTH remains that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Isaiah 63:16; Isaiah 64:8; Malachi 2:10).

Apparently, Jesus did NOT choose to reveal to you WHO the Father is (Luke 10:22).

Ed

[Flower]

Ed, I see lots of people have tried to tell you,...but it is impossible for man to persuade another. You will have to listen to the Spirit....that is where one gets truth. Not from an intelligence of reading the word.

John 1:1-14, if you will read that, is very clear on who the Word is. You just do not want to see it. Maybe it is you that have been taught this or do not wish to buck the system. Being close minded and not wishing to read the scritpures is not going to make the problem go away. Aparently this is nagging at you or it would not be a debated subject on the board.

Those that have been revealed the Word, know the mystery of Christ.

Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made know unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in a few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ.)
5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


1 Cor. 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden widsom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they know it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Do you know why Jesus was crucified. What was the charge against him? Do you know?

[PrinceJeff]

I say give up on Ed he won't ever get it. We have given him and Archieve truth so many times, but they refuse it. Oh well.

[ZoneChaos]

The "Word" in John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

The Word was not Jesus, the man, until God made the Word Flesh. However, the Word did exist, since before time, as that second person of the trinity, who became Jesus.

[edpobre]

Flower,

John 1:1-14, if you will read that, is very clear on who the Word is. You just do not want to see it. Maybe it is you that have been taught this or do not wish to buck the system. Being close minded and not wishing to read the scritpures is not going to make the problem go away. Aparently this is nagging at you or it would not be a debated subject on the board.

Do you really believe that John would say Jesus is God? Do you really think John wrote his book BEFORE Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)? Do you really think John would CONTRADICT Jesus, his LORD and savior?

Flower, you give the impression that you are open-minded. Show me how open your mind is. Think about these:

1) If John really believed that Jesus is God, why did he say "no one has ever SEEN God at any time..." (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12)? Haven't John and 500 others SEEN Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-:cool: BEFORE he ascended to heaven (Acts 1:11)? Are you telling me that John is a LIAR?

2) If John really believed that Jesus is God, why did he write that "whoever transgresses and does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ does NOT have God" (2 John 9). Aren't John 8:40 and John 17:3 doctrines of Christ?

3) Rom. 10:9 and Acts 4:10 tell us that "God RAISED Jesus from the dead." If Jesus is the DEAD God, and another God RAISED him up from the dead, how many Gods are there?

4) If Jesus is God and the Bible says he is sitting at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1), how many Gods do we see?

5) If Jesus is God and he says he is ascending to HIS Father and OUR Father, to HIS God and OUR God (John 20:17), how many Gods are there?

The only reason I'm debating this on these boards is to make people aware of the FALSE doctrine that they have been made to believe all these years and come out of their FALSE religion.

The Trinity is a man-made doctrine that leads people away from the true path to salvation.

Ed

[ZoneChaos]

Do you really think John would CONTRADICT Jesus, his LORD and savior?

You have yet to show a contrdiction of Jesus being God and Jesus being a Man.

1) If John really believed that Jesus is God, why did he say "no one has ever SEEN God at any time..." (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12)? Haven't John and 500 others SEEN Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1- BEFORE he ascended to heaven (Acts 1:11)? Are you telling me that John is a LIAR?


John is not talking about a physical sight, but is saying that no one has seen God's glory.. God's nature.. who God is. Just as in the OT, Moses was notallowe to look upon God, but rather just a back-view, shadow after image of God.. Moses could not see God's glory, for it would have killed him. NO man has seen God in this way.

2) If John really believed that Jesus is God, why did he write that "whoever transgresses and does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ does NOT have God" (2 John 9). Aren't John 8:40 and John 17:3 doctrines of Christ?


Why can't john, or myself beleive Jesus is a man, and is God? John does not deny Chrsit as a man.. niether does the Trinity Doctrine.

3) Rom. 10:9 and Acts 4:10 tell us that "God RAISED Jesus from the dead." If Jesus is the DEAD God, and another God RAISED him up from the dead, how many Gods are there?

Dead physically.. God raise the physical body of Jesus back from the dead.

4) If Jesus is God and the Bible says he is sitting at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1), how many Gods do we see?


One, according to Trinity Doctrine.

5) If Jesus is God and he says he is ascending to HIS Father and OUR Father, to HIS God and OUR God (John 20:17), how many Gods are there?

One according to Trinity Doctrine.

[qu9ote]The only reason I'm debating this on these boards is to make people aware of the FALSE doctrine that they have been made to believe all these years and come out of their FALSE religion.
[/quote]

As are we.

The Trinity is a man-made doctrine that leads people away from the true path to salvation.

Your opinion, based upon what you have been taught by your denomination.

[edpobre]

ZoneChaos,

I wrote: Do you really think John would CONTRADICT Jesus, his LORD and savior?

You rote:You have yet to show a contrdiction of Jesus being God and Jesus being a Man.

Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). Apostles Peter and Paul said Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Can you show me a verse where Jesus says he is God? Can you show me a verse where apostles Peter and Paul say Jesus is God?

Can't you see Zone that it's your OPINION against the word of Christ and his apostles?

I wrote: 1) If John really believed that Jesus is God, why did he say "no one has ever SEEN God at any time..." (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12)? Haven't John and 500 others SEEN Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1- BEFORE he ascended to heaven (Acts 1:11)? Are you telling me that John is a LIAR?

You wrote:John is not talking about a physical sight, but is saying that no one has seen God's glory.. God's nature.. who God is. Just as in the OT, Moses was notallowe to look upon God, but rather just a back-view, shadow after image of God.. Moses could not see God's glory, for it would have killed him. NO man has seen God in this way.

That's what you THINK Zone! Show me how you were able to know what John was thinking.

I wrote: 2) If John really believed that Jesus is God, why did he write that "whoever transgresses and does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ does NOT have God" (2 John 9). Aren't John 8:40 and John 17:3 doctrines of Christ?

You wrote:Why can't john, or myself beleive Jesus is a man, and is God? John does not deny Chrsit as a man.. niether does the Trinity Doctrine.

You may believe what you want to believe but do you really think that John did NOT abide in Christ's doctrine that the FATHER is the ONLY true God? In John 20:31, John said that his book is written that "you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON of GOD, and that believing, you may have life in his name."

John did NOT say Jesus is "God the Son" Zone. It is clear that John saw the distinction between Jesus the SON and God the FATHER.

I wrote: 3) Rom. 10:9 and Acts 4:10 tell us that "God RAISED Jesus from the dead." If Jesus is the DEAD God, and another God RAISED him up from the dead, how many Gods are there?

You wrote::D ead physically.. God raise the physical body of Jesus back from the dead.

Again, that's what you THINK Zone. That's NOT what the verse is saying!

I wrote: 4) If Jesus is God and the Bible says he is sitting at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1), how many Gods do we see?

You wrote:One, according to Trinity Doctrine.

That's why the Trinity doctrine is FALSE! It presumes that people are blind and dumb and cannot see what's wrong with the doctrine.

I wrote: 5) If Jesus is God and he says he is ascending to HIS Father and OUR Father, to HIS God and OUR God (John 20:17), how many Gods are there?

You wrote:One according to Trinity Doctrine.

And you still believe this ILLOGICAL and UNREASONABLE doctrine? Have pity on yourself and your loved ones Zone!

Ed

[Flower]

Ed,
I don't know whether you are a Christian or one that is to stir the pot to cause dissension. I am new to the board and have never seen such as this before. I an tell you this. It is not pleasing to God. It is not an example of Christ. Actually the oposite would be so. Romans 14 I think it is tells us we are not to cause our brothers to stumble or squabble over things that are non-essential to salvation. I have my doubts as to whether those that do not believe in the deity of Christ have the correct Jesus.....but I am going to leave that to Him to be the Judge. He knows the heart.

And IF you are Christian, and I am speaking to us all. We are to edify one another, building on their faith,...not doing such as I see here. You can go on a million years with those throwing a temper tantrum because they want us to deny what the mystery of Christ that has been revealed to us by the Spirit. We cannot do that to satisfy mere man. I would caution no-one to go back down the ladder of Spiritual growth from being revealed truths to denying truths to satisfy those that are not enlightened. But I think it is a shame to see a Christian continuously try and cause dissension "AMONGST BELIEVERS". Christ said those that are for us are not against us. You should be there to help them build upon their faith. Even if you do not agree this is similar to the meat and feast described in Romans 14.

If you do not eat meat and someone does, then do not make a big deal over it. That is between him and the Lord. Same as with worship on a Sabbath or a Sunday.

I personally think you are not able to understand the mystery of Christ. But I will not continue to debate with you. Once I have stated the scriptures I am done. All that is required of us is to sow the seeds. The Lord will reveal to those He wishes to reveal truths.

I just think this is a bit of a problem on this board with who knows how many threads of the same topic. And many many of you are fine Christians and should be building one another up and working toward unity and not dissension.

That is all I have to say.
Good bye

[ZoneChaos]

Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). Apostles Peter and Paul said Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Can you show me a verse where Jesus says he is God? Can you show me a verse where apostles Peter and Paul say Jesus is God?

Can't you see Zone that it's your OPINION against the word of Christ and his apostles?

How is the beleif that Jesus is God contradictory to Jesus being a man? It is possible He is both. My opinion is not against the word of Christ. I know and belevie that Jesus is a man. I also know and beleive that Jesus is God.

That's what you THINK Zone! Show me how you were able to know what John was thinking.

Can you show me what John was thining? No.. so do not ask it of me.

You may believe what you want to believe but do you really think that John did NOT abide in Christ's doctrine that the FATHER is the ONLY true God? In John 20:31, John said that his book is written that "you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON of GOD, and that believing, you may have life in his name."

John did NOT say Jesus is "God the Son" Zone. It is clear that John saw the distinction between Jesus the SON and God the FATHER.

FIne.. let me rephrase the question.. Do you not thikn it is possible for JOhn to accepot the Doctrijne that the Father is the one and only true tgod, and acept the Jesus is also the same one and only true God? Undoubtedly you will say no.. so why? why is this not possible? That is what teh Triniyt teaches. The Trinity doctrine acepts the doctrine that the father is the one and only true God.

Again, that's what you THINK Zone. That's NOT what the verse is saying!

OK.. you tell me what teh verse is saying...

That's why the Trinity doctrine is FALSE! It presumes that people are blind and dumb and cannot see what's wrong with the doctrine.

Fine then.. whats wrong wiht it? Trinity has one God.. what is wrong with that? You thik the Trinity doctrine is fAlse becasue it teaches there is only one God?

And you still believe this ILLOGICAL and UNREASONABLE doctrine? Have pity on yourself and your loved ones Zone!

Yes. I understand it. Just becasue you are unable to understand it, dos not mean it is not understandable. I understand the Trinity Doctrine 3 in 1. You do not.

[2ducklow]

How is the beleif that Jesus is God contradictory to Jesus being a man? It is possible He is both. No cause God is a spirit and Jesus is a man. If Jesus is both then he is both a spirit being and a man being, which is nonsense.


My opinion is not against the word of Christ. I know and belevie that Jesus is a man. I also know and beleive that Jesus is God. then you have multiple contradictions.




Can you show me what John was thining? No.. so do not ask it of me. Who cares whatJohn was thinking, what is important is what the word of god means that was delievered to John to write down. I can guarantee you that JOhn was not perfect and believed some things that were wrong.




FIne.. let me rephrase the question.. Do you not thikn it is possible for JOhn to accepot the Doctrijne that the Father is the one and only true tgod, and acept the Jesus is also the same one and only true God?
no cause you have 2 one and only true god (s), that is a contradiction supremo.

dly you will say no.. so why? why is this not possible? That is what teh Triniyt teaches. The Trinity doctrine acepts the doctrine that the father is the one and only true God. and lists 2 other one and only true gods. god the son , and god the holy spirit, Oh I forgot you can't call them gods if you add t hem up you gotta call them persons of god if you want to add them up. trinity doctrine you know. ok sorry i m not a trinitarian so when you list 3 different gods I can and do add them up to 3, just like you do when you call them somethng else.




OK.. you tell me what teh verse is saying...



Fine then.. whats wrong wiht it? Trinity has one God.. what is wrong with that? You thik the Trinity doctrine is fAlse becasue it teaches there is only one God? no it is false because it t eaches that 3 gods are one god, and because it refuses to add up the 3 g ods that it lists unless you call them something else like person of God then you have no trouble correctly adding the 3 individuals up to 3.




Yes. I understand it. Just becasue you are unable to understand it, dos not mean it is not understandable. I understand the Trinity Doctrine 3 in 1. You do not.if you understand how 3 persons are one being, then you understand how 3 cars are one car. NOT>

[woden]

What did Jesus himself say on this matter? Did he say he was God? No, nor did he elude in any way that he was. Rather he spoke of the Father as a separate entity, thus calling him Father, not me. Added to this is that the Bible does not equate Jesus as Almighty God. Paul says that Jesus did not when in heaven assert himself to the same elevation as God, to seize an equality status with God. No one man has seen God at any time. Jesus did when he was in heaven and God's qualities were reflected in Jesus just as God's qualities were reflected in Adam. But because Adam rebelled God had to put into action a contingancy plan to save mankind. This led to the first prophecy of the Bible in Gen.3:15.

Is Jesus a God as Thomas stated? Yes he is, just as Satan is. There are other "gods" and "lords" in this world (see 1Cor. 8:4-6). Yet Jesus ascribed honour and praise to his Father, not himself. Jesus even showed weakness in the Garden of Gethsemane and an angel appeared and strengthened him. Isn't that interesting? If Jesus was Almighty God then that would not of been needed would it? Added to that is Jesus was tempted by the Devil, was put to death and raised up. None of which would of happened if he were Almighty God already, unless of course he wasn't.

[music4two]

The Dual Nature of Christ


One of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examining of a living creature must be it’s nature.

God is a being of order and reason. He is the author of intelegent design. Does the Dual Nature Doctrine line up with God’s attributes of logic, design and reason?

God does not have teachings or works that are dysfunctional. All of the things He does works toward helping His plan come about. An example is found in Genesis Chapter 1. Hebrews relate everything to functionality or relationship. the word “Good” (tov , Heb) would be better translated as functional. the opposite of this word is “ra”. these two words are used in the knowledge of good (tov) and evil (ra) In otherwords the knowledge of function and disfunction. God, His creation, His teachings, and His children should be functional. All teachings that prepose to help us, should function within God’s plan for His creation.

There are literally 100 of scriptures that prove Jesus to be human. Nearly all Christian Churches lay claim to believing that He is fully human, however they also add a concept of Jesus being fully God. This is commonly refered to as “The Dual Nature of Christ”

This Dual Nature Doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides use this doctrine to support their concepts of God. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination?

First let us define the term nature from common modern language.
Nature in modern dictionaries includes these definitions;
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing:
The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament:
The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. One synonym would be disposition or character. A person's nature refers to the combination of qualities that idenity a person or being.

Here we see a clear discription of "Nature". So it is obvious that one aspect of Nature is the characteristics or make up of a person.

Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated.

In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most "dual nature believers" make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.

Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him.
Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”

Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?

Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal.

God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being.

Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite.

God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!

There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being.

There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd.

Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.

Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.

This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.

What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted by those whom he so desperately loved.

Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?

The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. It is dysfunctional. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion. Without the dual nature of Christ, both Trinitarian and Oneness doctrines cannot stand.

[music4two]

Is Jesus a God as Thomas stated? Yes he is, just as Satan is. There are other "gods" and "lords" in this world (see 1Cor. 8:4-6). Yet Jesus ascribed honour and praise to his Father, not himself. Jesus even showed weakness in the Garden of Gethsemane and an angel appeared and strengthened him. Isn't that interesting? If Jesus was Almighty God then that would not of been needed would it? Added to that is Jesus was tempted by the Devil, was put to death and raised up. None of which would of happened if he were Almighty God already, unless of course he wasn't.


It is amazing the extant some will go to to resist the truth of God!

According to the way some interpret scripture, the fact that Thomas said My lord and My God proves that Jesus is God.

First the word “Lord” does not indicate God. It is not a proper name for God, but means master or one in authority. Much like the Lord of a feudal castle was called Lord and like Sarah called Abraham Lord.

If their logic holds true about Jesus being God because he was called so by Thomas , then how much more credence should you give Jesus calling someone God.

John 10:34 (Jesus speaking to the pharasees)
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Therefore the pharasees Jesus spoke to are Gods?

How about if YHWH calls someone God?

Psalm 82:6 (YHWH speaking to Israel)
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Therefore the entire nation of Israel are Gods?

How about when the burning bush calls itself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?


Exodus 3
3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
( What did moses see? A burning bush.)

4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(Who spoke out of what? God spoke out of the bush.)

5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
( Who did the God in the bush say he was? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. What did Moses see? A burning bush. Why was Moses afraid to look at a burning bush? He was afraid to look at God.)
-------- As you said WJ ------- IT IS AMAZING THAT WHEN SOME READ THAT THOMAS CALLS JESUS GOD IT IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS IS GOD -- AND YET -- WHEN JESUS CALLS SOMEONE GOD, YHWH CALLS SOMEONE GOD AND MOSES “CALLS” SOMETHING GOD IT CAN’T POSSIBLY BE PROOF THAT THESE INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE OR THINGS ARE GOD.
THIS IS CLEAR PROOF OF THE SITUATIONAL ETHICS OF INTERPRETATION USED BY TRINITARIANS. THEY INTERPRET A THING DOFERENTLY IN DIFERENT PLACES BASED NOT ON SCRIPTURE BUT ON THEIR DOCTRINE. THEY TAKE ONE WORD OR CONTEXT AND WHEN IT SUPPORTS THEIR DOCTRINE THEY SAY IT MEANS ONE THING. WHEN IT DOES NOT SUPPORT THEIR DOCTRINE THEY SAY IT MEANS SOMETHING ELSE.

As I have said many times before, Hebrews think and percieve the world differently then we of a western culture.

In the first scripture Jesus quotes Psalm 82 wherein YHWH calls the nation of Israel Gods.

Psalm 82


1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

The Hebrew word for “gods” in this passage is Elohyim. (side note - If Elohyim depicts a triune godhead and these people are also Elohyim, has the Godhead just grown to include the millions of Israel?) Does this statement by YHWH make the nation of Israel all Gods? Of course not! The context is about how the nation of Israel was treating their fellow man. They needed to be like God in character toward their fellow men. This was precisely the point Jesus made to the pharasees.
Perhaps a better understanding of how hebrews viewed names is needed.

The Hebrew word for name is “shem”

When we see a name such as "King David" we see the word "King" as a title and "David" as a name. In our western mind a title describes a character trait while a name is simply an identifier. In the Hebrew language there is no such distinction between names and titles. Both words, King and David, are descriptions of character traits, King is "one who reigns" while David is "one who is loved". It is also common to identify the word "Elohiym" (God) as a title and YHWH (Yahweh, the LORD, Jehovah) as a name. What we do not realize is that both of these are character traits, YHWH meaning "the one who exists" and Elohiym is "one who has power and authority". The Hebrew word "shem" more literally means "character". When the Bible speaks of taking God's name to the nations, he is not talking about the name itself but his character. When the command to not take God's name in vain literally means not to represent his character in a false manner. It is similar to our expression of "having a good name" which is not about the name itself but the character of the one with that name.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_name.html

With this understanding in hand an honest person can realize that in Psalm 82 and in John 10, calling others Gods is refering to character traits that should be present in the people of God. This is true in both Old and New Testament cultures and is a common understanding among the Hebrews of both periods.

With these facts in mind let us examine Thomas’ calling Jesus God.

This is not definitive ironclad proof that Jesus is God. I sight the following possible reasons for Thomas’ statement.

1. The context of the story is Thomas doubting the physical resurection of Jesus. This context is about the humanity and mortality of Jesus. This context is about the human Jesus being rased from the dead by theos (God) When Jesus apears to Thomas, He emphasizes that Thomas look and touch as proof that He was physically raised from the dead. This was not to prove he was God but to prove He was resurected.

WJ says “Based on this, Jesus is saying "Blessed are those who believe I am God and have not seen"
HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF TRINITARIANS TAKING SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT AND MISQUOTING SCRIPTURE. THE CONTEXT IS ABOUT BELIEVING IN THE RESURECTION OF CHRIST NOT ABOUT JESUS BEING GOD! -- UNLESS WJ IS SAYING THAT JESUS MUST BE GOD TO BE RESURECTED FROM THE DEAD, IN WHICH CASE WE ARE ALL DOOMED.

Verses 1 though 25 are about Jesus’ resurection. When the resurection is reported to Thomas his response is as follows--

24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
(as a side note, some see the capitalization of lord in these verses and assume it means the proper name of God. It is also Kurios= master or one in authority.)

After Jesus tells Thomas to thrust his hand in the side of Jesus, Thomas makes his statement. Was it important that Thomas see the holes in Jesus’ hands, feet and side to prove that He was God? No! It was important so that Thomas would see and believe that Jesus was physically raised from the dead. Does the resurection of Christ prove that He is God? Is it necessary to be a God to be resurected?
Then Jesus says ---
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

This verse is still about the resurection. SIMPLE QUESTION, READING THE CONTEXT, WHAT DID THOMAS SEE? Jesus was showing Thomas the holes in His hands, feet and side. Why would Jesus use these things to prove that He is God? Obviously he was not trying to prove He was God. He was proving His resurection and that is what Thomas saw and also what Jesus commented on. “Thomas, because thou hast literally seen my resurection, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not literally seen my resurection, and yet have believed. This is not as some would like us to believe an admonition by Jesus for Thomas believing Jesus is God but an acknoledgement that Thomas saw Jesus’ physical resurection.
I would imagine that Thomas was very shocked to hear Jesus repeat his own words back to him in confrontation. Thomas was having a Moses experiance. Confronted by a supernatural revealing of God in the natural physical realm. Even as Moses saw a physical revealing of God in the burning bush and percieved the presence of God in that bush, Thomas saw a physical revealing of God in the man Jesus Christ and percieved the presence of God in that man. How many verses does Jesus speak of the Father being in Him?
I might speculate that in as emotional and shocking moment as Thomas was experiancing, he did more then clamly say “My Lord and My God. I can imagine his exclaiming MY LORD AND MY GOD. In the finale analisis, what was Thomas saying. “My Lord” Thomas acknoledges Jesus as his master and the one in authority. My God, Thomas cries out as the revelation sinks in of the absolutely miraculous fact that his brother and fellow human was raised from the dead by God. OH MY GOD!!!! THE RESURECTION IS TRUE!!! I DO HAVE HOPE FOR LIFE AFTER DEATH!!!!

Thomas had a triple revelation when he saw Christ.
1. He saw Jesus as his Lord and master. He saw YHWH’s authority that was given to Jesus and so often spoke of by Jesus himself. He saw Him as the King of all earthly Kings. The rightfull heir to the thrown of David.
2. He saw the unbridled revealing of YHWH in the man Jesus Christ. He saw the revelation of Jesus coming in His Father’s name/character. Remember you can have the character traits of God without being God. The name Jesus is Yah-oshea. This means God the saviour. Now before anyone goes off “Greeking” this -- remember what I hae already posted. This is a character trait and not an identifier. This does not identify Jesus as God, but rather identifies the overall character trait revealed by Jesus; God’s mercy and saving grace. His charactr trait was to save His brethren and fellow humans. For this He gave His life.
3.He had a direct, potent, astounding and shocking revelation of the resurection from the dead. The greatest hope and promise ever given to man is the hope of eternal life and resurection from the dead. Thomas just had this promise of God confirned right in front of his eyes. The confirmation was profound because Thomas knew Jesus was human. If a God was raised - no biggie. That would do nothing to effect Thomas’ hope for resurection or eternal life. However to see a human being, that you had lived with for 3 and 1/2 years, crucified and killed, standing before you alive in his resurected mortal physical body, would be an Earth shattering profound experiance of a totally diferent nature.

[music4two]

Yo!!! I did not mean to kill this thread.

[ChristianFriend2012]

I used to think that Jesus was "just another ascended master" as the saying goes. But to believe that, is to ignore Him being born of a virgin and of His ressurrecting His flesh from the tomb, something no ascended master has done. Even to take an extreme example of one of those ascended masters, Paramahansa Yogananda, now his body didn't decompose until 20 days after it expired, it smelled of roses up until then. Pretty amazing stuff if you ask me, but it still doesn't compare with being able to take your flesh with you when you depart this world imo.
So, if the Creator of All That Is decided to incarnate Himself directly into human form, and of course this is possible for such a glorious being, then He would be 100% man and 100% God simultaneously, and even better news, it already happened, and He has given us the ultimate expression as to the human ideal to strive towards in this life, all it takes is the faith the size of a mustard seed to begin a long journey that may never end.