Do you believe Baptism is essential for Salvation? (3)

[Breaking Babylon]

Honestly?

Those things probably would've bounced right off of me, until you threw that last line in. Water isn't an element that everyone has access to. God is just - He isn't going to forsake anyone because they don't have the ability to be dunked.

That puts things in a different perspective. I need to think about this for awhile.

[Schroeder]

LoL

You've already read the other verses and not believed them.

Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:26-27 to bad they contradict most scripture dealing with salvation which say by BELIEF . john 3:16, 4:14, 5:24, 6:29 rom 10:9-10, acts 10:43, 16:31, Rom3:23-24 5:18-19, rom 8:5-10 2 cor 3:17-18, gal 2:16. 3:2, eph 1:13-14 2:8, theres more. but you should see the point. there is NOO contradiction in how salvation is given. so either my passages are LIES or yours are misinterpreted. it is not a matter of BELIEVING THEM it is understading what they say. and it is not believing your interpretation. which the passages i have shown show they cant be your interpretation. we will just leave it at that i am not going to go and explain them to you again. the FACT they dont go with the rest in your interpretation of them should show you need to rethink what they say. And or what baptism they are speaking of.

[WesWoodell]

All we have to do to be saved is believe the right things?

[RMathison]

All we have to do to be saved is believe the right things?

Nope.

All we have to do to be saved, is believe into (/upon)

Jesus (John 3:16)

[Nadiine]

All we have to do to be saved is believe the right things?

well,.... mere belief isn't really saving faith.

James 2:19 "the Devils also believe, and tremble"
Demons believe God exists & who He is, but they haven't placed their FAITH in Him as their Lord & Saviour specifically. (no acceptance of Him).

Faith involves TRUST and giving yourself to Him along with repentance of/turning from sin.

An analogy: you can Believe a chair will hold your weight if you sit in it.
but until you actually SIT in that chair, you haven't put your full Faith into that belief. The faith wasn't exercised.
Faith is more, 'putting the belief into action' & it involves a level of trust.

I hope I didn't hack that up lol.

[Nadiine]

No baptism is not essential to be saved. We are saved by faith, not works.

But it is a public profession of faith in Christ.

Paragraph one: Amen.

Paragraph two: What about the eunuch?

That wasn't exactly 'public', now was it?

I found no problem w/ the post.

The Eunich first BELIEVED the gospel and was saved.
Baptism was the obedience to the Command to be baptized.

It WAS public, Phillip was with him out in the open.
"Public" doesn't mean there has to be Crowds witnessing it. 1 eyewitness makes something public IMO.

The original statement is right.:blush:

[WesWoodell]

well,.... mere belief isn't really saving faith.

James 2:19 "the Devils also believe, and tremble"
Demons believe God exists & who He is, but they haven't placed their FAITH in Him as their Lord & Saviour specifically. (no acceptance of Him).

That's exactly my point. Faith isn't simply believing intellecutally. The Greek word for faith, Pisteuo, encompasses trust, understanding, and obedience.

What I hear taught by the majority of mainstream evangelicals that all one needs to do to be saved is believe in God intellectually, say a prayer, and poof - you're saved.

Nothing is said about dying to self, nothing is said about actually changing (repentance) ...

I know a ton of people who have 'prayed Jesus into their heart' and now believe themselves to be saved. They never changed their lifestyle ... they don't even attempt to take the teachings of Christ or the Bible into account when making decisions ... they don't appear to love God or even think about Him ... yet they believe they're saved.

They believe they're saved because they believe in God, and they said a prayer. Maybe they are ... we can't really say for sure can we ...

But our God-given intellects should be setting off alarms in our hearts ... something just isn't right here.

Satan believes all the right things. His knowledge of the doctrine of God is perfect ... but he's missing something. He doesn't love God.

Those who truly love God will display it through their actions - adherance to God's commands are one way that's done.

Trust, understanding, and obedience. That's faith.

[Nadiine]

That's exactly my point. Faith isn't simply believing intellecutally. The Greek word for faith, Pisteuo, encompasses trust, understanding, and obedience.

What I hear taught by the majority of mainstream evangelicals that all one needs to do to be saved is believe in God intellectually, say a prayer, and poof - you're saved.

Nothing is said about dying to self, nothing is said about actually changing (repentance) ...

I know a ton of people who have 'prayed Jesus into their heart' and now believe themselves to be saved. They never changed their lifestyle ... they don't even attempt to take the teachings of Christ or the Bible into account when making decisions ... they don't appear to love God or even think about Him ... yet they believe they're saved.

They believe they're saved because they believe in God, and they said a prayer. Maybe they are ... we can't really say for sure can we ...

But our God-given intellects should be setting off alarms in our hearts ... something just isn't right here.

Satan believes all the right things. His knowledge of the doctrine of God is perfect ... but he's missing something. He doesn't love God.

Those who truly love God will display it through their actions - adherance to God's commands are one way that's done.

Trust, understanding, and obedience. That's faith.

Ahhh, I see - I thought you really were asking a Question on your post lol. My bad!:sorry:

This is what Paul fought with the Antinomians of his day. Greazy grace - I'm saved, now pass me the Vodka. :/
Rep on the way!:amen:

[RMathison]

"Public" doesn't mean there has to be Crowds witnessing it. 1 eyewitness makes something public IMO.




Well,

that's one MORE reason that 'church-buildings'

are NOT needed.

However, I'm sure that many of THEM,

would have you believe that
one needs to be baptised
in water by THEM,
in order to be saved

(and also pass you the 'offering plate', when you arrive.)

[Nadiine]

Well,

that's one MORE reason that 'church-buildings'

are NOT needed.

However, I'm sure that many of THEM,

would have you believe that
one needs to be baptised
in water by THEM,
in order to be saved

(and also pass you the 'offering plate', when you arrive.)

Hi Rm,

Have you done any studies on the church? As I read the New Test. it definitely promotes church gathering corporately.

I also know how much it Costs to run a church, so giving back our tithes to the Lord shouldn't be a "BAD" thing... & I'd be real careful lumping "all" churches together as greedy as it seems to suggest above.

I'd reply more if I had time, maybe another time.
Take care,
:)

[CrazyforYeshua]

Well,

that's one MORE reason that 'church-buildings'

are NOT needed.

However, I'm sure that many of THEM,

would have you believe that
one needs to be baptised
in water by THEM,
in order to be saved

(and also pass you the 'offering plate', when you arrive.)


My church doesn't teach you need to be baptized by "them". I had this discussion with my pastor, and like he said, he doesn't need to be there. As long as the one doing the baptizing is saved, and walking it, they can baptize also.
And no, you don't have to be baptized to be saved, it is an outward profession of your faith, if you repent and get saved in a hospital and end up dying, you're as saved as someone who has been baptized.

[Catechumen]

And no, you don't have to be baptized to be saved, it is an outward profession of your faith, if you repent and get saved in a hospital and end up dying, you're as saved as someone who has been baptized.

This is exactly my issue with this subject. First of all, you, or anyone else, is not "saved" until actually in Heaven.

[RMathison]

Hi Rm,

Have you done any studies on the church? As I read the New Test. it definitely promotes church gathering corporately.

I also know how much it Costs to run a church, so giving back our tithes to the Lord shouldn't be a "BAD" thing... & I'd be real careful lumping "all" churches together as greedy as it seems to suggest above.

I'd reply more if I had time, maybe another time.
Take care,



Hello back.

First of all, (regarding paragraph one above),

Paul suggests that we not neglect to gather together.

Please notice that NOTHING about any buildings are mentioned,

at all, and that gathering (such as in a home-group),

is NOT commanded for salvation.


Regarding your paragraph two above, on TITHING...

Sorry, I'm not a JEW under The Old Covenant,

therefore tithing is NOT required.

(neither is marrying your brother's wife if he dies,

or circumcision, or animal sacrifice, etc, etc.)

All one has to do to be saved, is to believe upon Christ,

and His sacrifice (surprise, surprise).


But do non-Christians EVER hear THAT message,

or to them, is it all about MONEY (like the GREEDY ones preach),

and about BUYING A STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN?

[PeterAV]

The thief on the cross is your infalible answer.
If you don't accept that,then you are standing in judgement of God himself.

[Schroeder]

That's exactly my point. Faith isn't simply believing intellecutally. The Greek word for faith, Pisteuo, encompasses trust, understanding, and obedience.

What I hear taught by the majority of mainstream evangelicals that all one needs to do to be saved is believe in God intellectually, say a prayer, and poof - you're saved.

Nothing is said about dying to self, nothing is said about actually changing (repentance) ...

I know a ton of people who have 'prayed Jesus into their heart' and now believe themselves to be saved. They never changed their lifestyle ... they don't even attempt to take the teachings of Christ or the Bible into account when making decisions ... they don't appear to love God or even think about Him ... yet they believe they're saved.

They believe they're saved because they believe in God, and they said a prayer. Maybe they are ... we can't really say for sure can we ...

But our God-given intellects should be setting off alarms in our hearts ... something just isn't right here.

Satan believes all the right things. His knowledge of the doctrine of God is perfect ... but he's missing something. He doesn't love God.

Those who truly love God will display it through their actions - adherance to God's commands are one way that's done.

Trust, understanding, and obedience. That's faith. YES true BUT getting water baptized doesnt PROVE your faith does it. it is just ONE act. SO how do you say it forgives sins or what ever you believe it does. ALl the commands given by Christ werre NOT i REPEAT NOT one act things you do. they were LIFE actions you do your whole life. His commands were to LIVE OUT YOUR FAITH. that is what obediance is. just as you say. to BELIEVE and to LIVE IT OUT IN ACTION, NOT One action but your LIFE ACTIONS. you can do the same thing as you showed believe and not change and have gotten baptized. i would say MOST were. but guess what it didnt change them did it. so what does. THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. because that is when we have the rebirth. His Spirit takes over. water baptism has no part of that. and has i have said obediance does not and will not happen UNTILL this Spirit baptism has taken place and His Spirit takes control.

[- DRA -]

When I was in my former church, they also did not like to use the word saved to describe a convert who was being water baptized. The strange thing about it was that they believed that water baptism was not of repentance unto the remission of sins.....but that water baptism itself.....was unto remission of sins. So go figure.

Two points:
1.) If one is already "saved" before being baptized in water, then Saul was saved before his sins were washed away (see Acts 22:16). Uh, there is obviously a problem with this reasoning and with what Ananias really says to Saul.
2.) The baptism of John was of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4). However, after Jesus' death, His testament (or will) went into effect (Hebrews 9:15-17). The baptism commanded in Acts 2:38 was "in the name of Jesus Christ" -- not John's baptism (see also Acts 8:12,16; Acts 10:47-48; and Acts 19:1-5). This baptism was the one that Jesus authorized as a means for us to be united with His death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-11).

The New Testament teaches that the moment a person comes to the kind of belief that God commands, (mental assent Jn.12:42-43 & of the will Rom.10:2) that this belief will be coupled with repentance:

I use James 2:21-24 to support the idea that the faith that God accepts is the one that obeys Him. And, since repentance is commanded (i.e. Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38; Acts 17:30), then those with the faith that God accepts will indeed obey Him.

Consider the main thought of Acts 8:12: "But when they believed ... both men and women were baptized." This infers that the belief that is prompted by hearing the gospel of Christ is the one that is coupled with baptism. Therefore, not only must repentance be coupled with faith, but baptism must also be.

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mk.1:15)

As previously pointed out, the Samaritans believed the gospel and responded by being baptized (Acts 8:12), just like those in Acts 2:38,41 and the eunuch in Acts 8:35-39.

Consequently, we see the first-century Christians teaching and converting people just as Jesus instructed in Mark 16:15-16.

[- DRA -]

YES true BUT getting water baptized doesnt PROVE your faith does it. it is just ONE act. SO how do you say it forgives sins or what ever you believe it does. ALl the commands given by Christ werre NOT i REPEAT NOT one act things you do. they were LIFE actions you do your whole life. His commands were to LIVE OUT YOUR FAITH. that is what obediance is. just as you say. to BELIEVE and to LIVE IT OUT IN ACTION, NOT One action but your LIFE ACTIONS. you can do the same thing as you showed believe and not change and have gotten baptized. i would say MOST were. but guess what it didnt change them did it. so what does. THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. because that is when we have the rebirth. His Spirit takes over. water baptism has no part of that. and has i have said obediance does not and will not happen UNTILL this Spirit baptism has taken place and His Spirit takes control.

Romans chapter 6 fully addresses your concerns. Baptism is not just "one act," as you describe it. It is God's way for us to be united with Jesus, die to sin, and become alive to God to no longer be a slave/servant of sin.

Concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit ... there are two instances in the New Testament identified as the baptism with the Holy Spirit -- Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10:44-46 (see Acts 11:15-17). Today, people talk like they have received this baptism, but have only their own words as evidence (see 1 Corinthians 4:19).

:blush:

Acts 8:12-17 discusses the conversion of the Samaritans. How does this compare with your understanding of the "Spirit baptism?" It doesn't seem to be in agreement.

[- DRA -]

It is true that the baptism of John was of repentance for the remission of sins.......it is also true that the water baptism of Jesus Christ via His disciples (prior to Pentecost)....is also the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Same as today.

Can you explain then how the baptism of John or the one that Jesus' disciples administered (John 4:1-2) is the same as the baptism that unites us with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection where we die to sin, are freed from it, and become alive to God (Romans 6:3-11)? Did John's baptism do these things? Did the disciples' baptism do these things? Please explain how they did.

BTW, did Jesus' testament or will go into effect before or after His death? I believe Hebrews 9:15-17 is pretty clear that it was after His death.

[Schroeder]

Romans chapter 6 fully addresses your concerns. Baptism is not just "one act," as you describe it. It is God's way for us to be united with Jesus, die to sin, and become alive to God to no longer be a slave/servant of sin. this is NOT about water baptism. just read rom 8:1-11, with coll 2:10-13. every scripture that goes with this passage speasks only of the SPirit.

Concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit ... there are two instances in the New Testament identified as the baptism with the Holy Spirit -- Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10:44-46 (see Acts 11:15-17). Today, people talk like they have received this baptism, but have only their own words as evidence (see 1 Corinthians 4:19). read eph 1:13-14 and tell me this is not about the baptism of the SPirit we ALL receive when we accept the gospel. read john 7:37-39 and tell me this that we receive is not the Spirit baptism. DId not john the baptist says we would receive the baptism of the Spirit. he certainly was not just speaking of the two you say is the only ones that got it. they were gifts of the SPirit that were shown. if you have not you are NOT saved. your water baptism does NOTHING for your salvation. read 1 cor 12:13 it CLEARLY AND I MEAN CLEARLY says we are baptized by the SPirit. if you wish to twist it into not saying that it shows your unwillingness to understand.



Acts 8:12-17 discusses the conversion of the Samaritans. How does this compare with your understanding of the "Spirit baptism?" It doesn't seem to be in agreement. well it says your thinbking of Acts 2:38 is wrong since it says you get the Spirit when you are water baptized. it says here they did not. So how does it not seem to be in agreement. you only get it if you TRUELLY believe in your heart the gospel. And it was done this way to show authority of the disciples so they would know the Truth was from them and that any other gospel taught that was not like there was not true. Simon didnt get it was only God that could give the Spirit. the Fact he gave it the way he did i explained. you truelly refuse to see the scriptures correctly.

[Nadiine]

How do you deal with passages like Acts 2:38 which states that baptism is for the remission of sins?

hello,

The word "For" in Acts 2:38 in the Greek language can also be rendered: "BECAUSE OF" the remission of sins. We get baptized because of what He did for us - in remitting our sins for us thru His blood (this is something wonderful, because even the blood of animals didn't remove sin. Heb. 10:4 - it only allowed God to overlook it).

WATER doesn't remit sin, His BLOOD ALONE does.
How do we 'add' a created earthly element (H20) to removing sin when even sacrificed animal blood didn't remit it??
(& what if you can't GET to any water before a deathbed conversion???).

Since the Greek word for "For" in Acts 2:38 can also be translated "because of", and since remission of sin is by Jesus' shed blood alone, that interpretation doesn't coincide with OTHER scriptures that refute it.
Either the interpretation is wrong, or our Bible contradicts itself & is self refuting.

You also need to ask this, IF BAPTISM IS FOR REMITTING SIN, then why did JESUS get baptized?? He was sinless.
Did Jesus need Salvation? No.
Obviously, it's symbolizing & meaning something else. (His future death, burial & raising up to come - Romans 6:1-11 details this very symbolizm for our own baptism).

Also, in Luke 7:47-50, Jesus didn't baptize the woman when He said her faith saved her, GO IN PEACE.
Acts 10, the gentile, Cornelious attained the Holy Spirit (spoke in tongues) PRIOR to water baptism.

H20 - Water doesn't remove Sin - animal blood couldn't even do it; JESUS' BLOOD ALONE atones for our sin.
The Baptism is symbolizing what Christ did for us on the cross: death, burial, raising up in NEWNESS.
:)

[- DRA -]

hello,

The word "For" in Acts 2:38 in the Greek language can also be rendered: "BECAUSE OF" the remission of sins. We get baptized because of what He did for us - in remitting our sins for us thru His blood (this is something wonderful, because even the blood of animals didn't remove sin. Heb. 10:4 - it only allowed God to overlook it).

WATER doesn't remit sin, His BLOOD ALONE does.
How do we 'add' a created earthly element (H20) to removing sin when even sacrificed animal blood didn't remit it??
(& what if you can't GET to any water before a deathbed conversion???).

Since the Greek word for "For" in Acts 2:38 can also be translated "because of", and since remission of sin is by Jesus' shed blood alone, that interpretation doesn't coincide with OTHER scriptures that refute it.
Either the interpretation is wrong, or our Bible contradicts itself & is self refuting.

You also need to ask this, IF BAPTISM IS FOR REMITTING SIN, then why did JESUS get baptized?? He was sinless.
Did Jesus need Salvation? No.
Obviously, it's symbolizing & meaning something else. (His future death, burial & raising up to come - Romans 6:1-11 details this very symbolizm for our own baptism).

Also, in Luke 7:47-50, Jesus didn't baptize the woman when He said her faith saved her, GO IN PEACE.
Acts 10, the gentile, Cornelious attained the Holy Spirit (spoke in tongues) PRIOR to water baptism.

H20 - Water doesn't remove Sin - animal blood couldn't even do it; JESUS' BLOOD ALONE atones for our sin.
The Baptism is symbolizing what Christ did for us on the cross: death, burial, raising up in NEWNESS.
:)

Your post was addressed to aggie03, but I want to respond also. I hope you don't mind. :)

If the word "for" (the Greek word "eis") in Acts 2:38 can also be translated as "because of," then which credible translations translate the word "because of"?

Agreed. The blood of Christ does (Matthew 26:28). After Jesus shed his blood "for the remission of sins," the Jews in Acts 2:38 were told what to do to have their sins remitted. After believing the message that was preached (implied/inferred by their question in verse 37), the Jews were told to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Consider the chronology of events at this point. Jesus had already died on the cross. But the Jews still needed to be saved from their sins. Peter, under the direct influence of the Holy Spririt, tells them what is necessary. Note: He doesn't say that they are already saved. Rather, he tells them what to do to be saved from their sins. How do they respond? Those who gladly received the message were baptized (3,000) in verse 41. Thus, the implication is that the Jews that were NOT baptized did NOT receive the words spoken by Peter. Note also verse 47. They (the 3,000 and others that responded likewise) were saved and added to the church by the Lord. Now, back to the point about water. The baptism commanded in Acts 2:38 was in the name of Jesus Christ, which is synonymous with the baptism in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48 -- which is clearly identified as being in water. So, the question that comes to mind is what is it about baptism that is a factor in the remission of our sins. Is there some magical power in the water? Or, is there another reason? I find the explanation in Colossians 2:12-13 and Romans 6:3-11. Baptism is based on faith in the working of God. It is where we are united with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Note especially Romans 6:7. In baptism we are "freed" from sins -- a synonymous thought with "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38 -- which many people seem to overlook. The conclusion: understanding what occurs in baptism helps us "see" how baptism washes away sin (Acts 22:16) and how water saves us (1 Peter 3:20-21). It's really nothing more than God's way for us to be united with the Lord.

Why was Jesus baptized? Matthew 3:15 tells us it was to fulfill all righteousness. Consider the baptism of John. It was "for" or "unto" repentance to produce fruit (verses 11 & 8). The point? It was to get the Jews to repent of their sins and prepare for the coming of the Messiah. Jesus, however, had no sins. In addition, He was the Messiah. Therefore, He was baptized because it was the right thing to do -- as in setting a good example (my spin on Matt. 3:15).

Luke 7 occurred before Jesus' testament (or will) went into effect (see Hebrews 9:15-17).

After the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles in Acts 10, Peter's only conclusion can be found in verses 47-48. Note: also compare Acts 10:43 with Acts 8:12.

[Nadiine]

If the word "for" (the Greek word "eis") in Acts 2:38 can also be translated as "because of," then which credible translations translate the word "because of"?

Another word for "eis" is "result" (resulting in, as a result of, etc.)"to or into" and others.

Paul & James often use "if" in their claims of truth... where "if" actually means an affirmation of something being positively "so" (Since, and it is so....).
i.e. "If Christ died for us, then...". He isn't saying that maybe Jesus didn't die for us, but rather, SINCE Jesus died for us (Since He did, and it is so)... etc.

the Jews in Acts 2:38 were told what to do to have their sins remitted. After believing the message that was preached (implied/inferred by their question in verse 37), the Jews were told to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Consider the chronology of events at this point. Jesus had already died on the cross. But the Jews still needed to be saved from their sins. Peter, under the direct influence of the Holy Spririt, tells them what is necessary. Note: He doesn't say that they are already saved. Rather, he tells them what to do to be saved from their sins. How do they respond? Those who gladly received the message were baptized (3,000) in verse 41. Thus, the implication is that the Jews that were NOT baptized did NOT receive the words spoken by Peter. Note also verse 47. They (the 3,000 and others that responded likewise) were saved and added to the church by the Lord. Now, back to the point about water. The baptism commanded in Acts 2:38 was in the name of Jesus Christ, which is synonymous with the baptism in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48 -- which is clearly identified as being in water. So, the question that comes to mind is what is it about baptism that is a factor in the remission of our sins. Is there some magical power in the water? Or, is there another reason?

Let me type my notes on Acts 2:38 from my Hebrew-Greek study bible as to why Baptism is NOT for salvation or remission of sin for Jew or Gentile:
"Here the main verb is metanoesate (3340), the aorist direct imperative of metanoeo, repent.
This refers to that initial repentance of the sinner unto salvation.
The verb translated "be baptized" is in the indirect passive imperative of baptizo (907) which does not give it the same direct command implied in 'repent'.
The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the forgiveness of your sins" in Greek is 'eis', Unto.
It means "for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins."
It is the same preposition used in 1 Cor 10:2 - Repentance is presented as identifying an individual w/ the remission of his sins, even as baptism following repentance provides an external identification visible by others....."

The Greek grammar is what we miss in our English Bible translation.


Why was Jesus baptized? Matthew 3:15 tells us it was to fulfill all righteousness. Consider the baptism of John. It was "for" or "unto" repentance to produce fruit (verses 11 & 8). The point? It was to get the Jews to repent of their sins and prepare for the coming of the Messiah. Jesus, however, had no sins. In addition, He was the Messiah. Therefore, He was baptized because it was the right thing to do -- as in setting a good example (my spin on Matt. 3:15). {/quote]

As I study the entire Bible, it is incessantly using symbolism and imagery; often pointing prophetically to Christ and His finished work on the cross. (Heb. 9, etc.).
God uses visuals/symbolisms in foretelling important events or principles; I believe it's more prophetic that Jesus is being baptized since it is pointing to His very mission to Die, be buried & raise again.
I guess we can all speculate on that? But we DO know it's not FOR remission of sin or FOR salvation.

[quote]
Luke 7 occurred before Jesus' testament (or will) went into effect (see Hebrews 9:15-17).

I disagree with this, while I agree with Heb. 9:15 (which also proves HE IS GOD)...
Jesus dissallowed the people to put the adulterous woman to death when it was LAW to stone an adulterer/adulteress to death for that sin.

John the Baptist was baptizing hundreds prior to Jesus' death. Mat. 3, being baptized AS THEY CONFESSED THEIR SINS.

The KEY here for Jews is that THEY WERE BEING REBAPTIZED INTO CHRIST'S NAME SPECIFICALLY - I believe, due to IDENTIFYING/ACCEPTING HIM AS THEIR MESSIAH. Acknowledging who He was.
Elsewhere, we're told to be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
That could be a very interesting subject.

Since it's the Jews who rejected their own Messiah (who they were expecting), those who DID accept Him as Messiah, specifically acknowledged His true identity and baptized into His name directly for association.


After the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles in Acts 10, Peter's only conclusion can be found in verses 47-48. Note: also compare Acts 10:43 with Acts 8:12.

I've always upheld that baptism is commanded by God.
My objection IS IN WHAT WE ARE BAPTIZED FOR. It's not forgivness of sin or salvation for Jew OR Gentile.
The fact that Cornelious spoke in tongues and had the Spirit within him PRIOR to water baptism is the proof that he was saved FIRST, then obeyed in baptism.

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

If the word "for" (the Greek word "eis") in Acts 2:38 can also be translated as "because of," then which credible translations translate the word "because of"?

Another word for "eis" is "result" (resulting in, as a result of, etc.)"to or into" and others.

Paul & James often use "if" in their claims of truth... where "if" actually means an affirmation of something being positively "so" (Since, and it is so....).
i.e. "If Christ died for us, then...". He isn't saying that maybe Jesus didn't die for us, but rather, SINCE Jesus died for us (Since He did, and it is so)... etc.


I appreciate your response. However, you didn't answer my question. In post # 281 you said, "The word "For" in Acts 2:38 in the Greek language can also be rendered: "BECAUSE OF" the remission of sins." In response, I asked which credible translations translate the word as "because of." My question wasn't answered.

Let me type my notes on Acts 2:38 from my Hebrew-Greek study bible as to why Baptism is NOT for salvation or remission of sin for Jew or Gentile:
"Here the main verb is metanoesate (3340), the aorist direct imperative of metanoeo, repent.
This refers to that initial repentance of the sinner unto salvation.
The verb translated "be baptized" is in the indirect passive imperative of baptizo (907) which does not give it the same direct command implied in 'repent'.
The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the forgiveness of your sins" in Greek is 'eis', Unto.
It means "for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins."
It is the same preposition used in 1 Cor 10:2 - Repentance is presented as identifying an individual w/ the remission of his sins, even as baptism following repentance provides an external identification visible by others....."

The Greek grammar is what we miss in our English Bible translation.

I'm confused on your point about the verb tenses. Are you saying that repentance is required for the remission of sins, or not? If not, then why not i.e. Luke 13:3,5; Luke 17:30?

I understand the point you are making about baptism. However, I understand the word "and" that connects repentance and baptism is a coordinating conjunction that connects equal parts. Thus, if one is necessary, then both are necessary i.e. Romans 10:9-10. I see both repentance and baptism being required in Acts 2:38. Furthermore, if baptism is not necessary, then Romans 6:7, Acts 22:16, and Colossians 2:11-12 would all harmomize with that understanding. Do they? I don't see where they do.

Does the word "eis" mean to indentify with? Why not consider the whole phrase "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38. The identical phrase appears in Matthew 26:28. Why was Jesus' blood shed? To identify with the remisssion of sins, because of the remission of sins, or to obtain the remission of sins?

Let's briefly consider 1 Corinthians 10. The Israelites were baptized into (eis) Moses (verse 2). Thus, was that before or after they passed through the Red Sea? It was afterward. Passing through the sea is presented as a copy, type, or shadow for the Corinthians to consider. The point? The Israelites were deliveraged from bondage -- but did not reach their promised land because of unfaithfulness. Consider the Corinthians. They had been baptized into Christ (see Acts 18:8 and 1 Cor. 1:10-17). If they are not careful, they will follow in the steps of the Israelites (study 1 Cor. 10 thru verse 12). Carefully consider the analogy. The baptism into Moses just wasn't about being identified with Moses. It was also about deliverance from bondage. Today, under the gospel of Christ, Jesus delivers us from the bondage of sin. How? Romans chapter 6 discusses it in detail. Think about it.

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

If the word "for" (the Greek word "eis") in Acts 2:38 can also be translated as "because of," then which credible translations translate the word "because of"?

Another word for "eis" is "result" (resulting in, as a result of, etc.)"to or into" and others.

Paul & James often use "if" in their claims of truth... where "if" actually means an affirmation of something being positively "so" (Since, and it is so....).
i.e. "If Christ died for us, then...". He isn't saying that maybe Jesus didn't die for us, but rather, SINCE Jesus died for us (Since He did, and it is so)... etc.


I appreciate your response. However, you didn't answer my question. In post # 281 you said, "The word "For" in Acts 2:38 in the Greek language can also be rendered: "BECAUSE OF" the remission of sins." In response, I asked which credible translations translate the word as "because of." My question wasn't answered.

Let me type my notes on Acts 2:38 from my Hebrew-Greek study bible as to why Baptism is NOT for salvation or remission of sin for Jew or Gentile:
"Here the main verb is metanoesate (3340), the aorist direct imperative of metanoeo, repent.
This refers to that initial repentance of the sinner unto salvation.
The verb translated "be baptized" is in the indirect passive imperative of baptizo (907) which does not give it the same direct command implied in 'repent'.
The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the forgiveness of your sins" in Greek is 'eis', Unto.
It means "for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins."
It is the same preposition used in 1 Cor 10:2 - Repentance is presented as identifying an individual w/ the remission of his sins, even as baptism following repentance provides an external identification visible by others....."

The Greek grammar is what we miss in our English Bible translation.

I'm confused on your point about the verb tenses. Are you saying that repentance is required for the remission of sins, or not? If not, then why not i.e. Luke 13:3,5; Luke 17:30?

I understand the point you are making about baptism. However, I understand the word "and" that connects repentance and baptism is a coordinating conjunction that connects equal parts. Thus, if one is necessary, then both are necessary i.e. Romans 10:9-10. I see both repentance and baptism being required in Acts 2:38. Furthermore, if baptism is not necessary, then Romans 6:7, Acts 22:16, and Colossians 2:11-12 would all harmomize with that understanding. Do they? I don't see where they do.

Does the word "eis" mean to indentify with? Why not consider the whole phrase "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38. The identical phrase appears in Matthew 26:28. Why was Jesus' blood shed? To identify with the remisssion of sins, because of the remission of sins, or to obtain the remission of sins?

Let's briefly consider 1 Corinthians 10. The Israelites were baptized into (eis) Moses (verse 2). Thus, was that before or after they passed through the Red Sea? It was afterward. Passing through the sea is presented as a copy, type, or shadow for the Corinthians to consider. The point? The Israelites were deliveraged from bondage -- but did not reach their promised land because of unfaithfulness. Consider the Corinthians. They had been baptized into Christ (see Acts 18:8 and 1 Cor. 1:10-17). If they are not careful, they will follow in the steps of the Israelites (study 1 Cor. 10 thru verse 12). Carefully consider the analogy. The baptism into Moses just wasn't about being identified with Moses. It was also about deliverance from bondage. Today, under the gospel of Christ, Jesus delivers us from the bondage of sin. How? Romans chapter 6 discusses it in detail. Think about it. The Israelites were baptized into Moses to be free from Ehyptian bondage, and today we have to be baptized into Christ to be freed from the bondage of sin. After that, there is the matter of remaining faithful to the Lord.

[GK]

Mod Note:

Please remember. As this thread is in the non-denominational forum, only non-denominational members should be posting in the discussion. If your faith icon shows a denomination, you should not be answering the question or rebutting given answers. Posts by denominational members have been removed and alerts sent so you know why your posts were removed.

A few posts by non-denominational members have been removed that directly quote and address responses by denominational members. I have not sent alerts on these, as your posts do not violate any rules in themselves. Rather, they had to be removed as part of the thread clean-up.

[JonahII]

Jesus commanded us to be baptized, but we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. If someone accepts Jesus' sacrifice, and dies the next week without having been baptized, then salvation is a promise of God. But if a Christian goes a long time without obeying this command, then he or she is living in a state of disobedience. It is very dangerous to say, "Naw, I don't need to be baptised." That person is not listening to the voice of His Lord and Master. At some point, God may look upon this as rebellion, and this is a very dangerous place. Get baptised in obedience to the Lord.

If you are in the hospital, get sprinkled instead of dunked. God won't care.

[aggie03]

Jesus commanded us to be baptized, but we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. If someone accepts Jesus' sacrifice, and dies the next week without having been baptized, then salvation is a promise of God. But if a Christian goes a long time without obeying this command, then he or she is living in a state of disobedience. It is very dangerous to say, "Naw, I don't need to be baptised." That person is not listening to the voice of His Lord and Master. At some point, God may look upon this as rebellion, and this is a very dangerous place. Get baptised in obedience to the Lord.

If you are in the hospital, get sprinkled instead of dunked. God won't care.

I noticed that your "faith icon" was "Christian", which according to the forum rules means that you agree with all of the things that the Nicean Creed proclaims. One of those things is "baptism for the remission of sins" as found in Acts 2:38. When the Nicean Creed was written in 325 AD it was referring to water baptism.

Did they mean that water took away your sins? No - in fact if you had suggested that back then you would have been called a heretic because everyone knew that salvation came only through Jesus Christ.

How did they put this together then? What did they mean when they talked "baptism for the remission of sins" with regard to our being saved by Christ? The answer is actually pretty simple. They believed that when one had faith in Christ and was baptized in his name that God worked through their baptism to raise them to a newness of life in the same way that God raised Christ from the dead. This very same thing is talked about in Romans 6. Read through that chapter, see what baptism does and ask if you can be saved without those things occurring.

Another place where it talks about those things more specifically is Colossians 2:

Colossians 2:12 ESV

having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Is it baptism that saves you? Yes and no. Baptism is something that you must do through faith in God - but the reason that you are saved is because of that faith. This passage from Colossians 2 says that through faith in God you are raised with Christ. This happens through your faith and is impossible without Jesus - but all of this occurs when you are baptized.

Does this make baptism necessary? Yes. Is it the physical act of baptism that saves you? No, it is your faith in God.

[Nadiine]

This happens through your faith and is impossible without Jesus - but all of this occurs when you are baptized.

Does this make baptism necessary? Yes.
Is it the physical act of baptism that saves you? No, it is your faith in God.


Ok, now I'm confused...

Baptism is "Necessary".... FOR WHAT THEN?

If you ARE saved by faith, then what will NOT being baptized result it? Is it a sin only? Or does that render you unregenerated?

My stance is that baptism is NOT for salvation, we cannot ADD a created element like H20 to the Blood of Christ & His finished work on the cross.

I also agree it's a serious command to follow in obedience. Just wondering when you say it's "necessary", what is the result if you do NOT get baptized if you do have saving faith?
thanx

[aggie03]

Ok, now I'm confused...

Baptism is "Necessary".... FOR WHAT THEN?

I would say that baptism is necessary to become a member of the new covenant.

If you ARE saved by faith, then what will NOT being baptized result it? Is it a sin only? Or does that render you unregenerated?

Jesus says in John 3 that you must be born again by water and spirit. I believe that this takes place when you are baptized. Colossians 2 states that it is through your faith that God works when you are baptized. Romans 6 also makes it clear that you are raised to a newness of life when you are baptized. What is a newness of life beside a "rebirth".

Upon becoming a member of the New Covenant, you then have access to the blood of Christ, the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Does this help to clear things up?

My stance is that baptism is NOT for salvation, we cannot ADD a created element like H20 to the Blood of Christ & His finished work on the cross.

This is not adding water to the blood of Christ, but it is baptism that gains your access to the blood of Christ.

I also agree it's a serious command to follow in obedience. Just wondering when you say it's "necessary", what is the result if you do NOT get baptized if you do have saving faith?
thanx

One's faith is not a "saving faith" until God has worked through that faith to make one a member of the New Covenant. Colossians 2:12 states that this take place when you are baptized.

[jeolmstead]

I think that baptism is a symbol of something that spiritually should have already happened; much the same way that a wedding ring is a symbol of my marriage. Can I be married and not wear a ring?, sure, Can I wear a wedding ring and not be married? Again the answer is yes. But, why would I want to play out either of these scenarios?

I guess the real question is: Why would I want to be a Christian and not be baptized? If I prayed for someone on their deathbed and they accepted Christ I don’t think the fact that they didn’t get baptized would keep them out of heaven. But, I would offer to pour water on their head! Not because it’s “required” but because it’s a good thing to do! I wasn’t baptized until 10 years after I accepted Christ. Getting dunked didn’t make me any more saved. It was however a special experience for me and I should not have waited so long!

Jesus didn’t need to be saved, He was perfect and without sin, Yet, he choose to be baptized. If nothing else that should be reason enough for us.

[jad123]

Such a fun topic to discuss. It seems so simple when you really look at it.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

I have heard it before, it dosen't say that if you are not baptized you will be condemned, only if you do not believe. When I look at this I see that I am told by the Lord to do TWO things and then I will be saved, not just ONE.

For example, if I hand you the keys to my car and tell you to open the car doors and start the ignition then you can drive the car, but if you do not open the car door you cannot drive it.

Does this mean you can still drive the car. NO. There is still something else you need to do.

[aggie03]

I think that baptism is a symbol of something that spiritually should have already happened; much the same way that a wedding ring is a symbol of my marriage. Can I be married and not wear a ring?, sure, Can I wear a wedding ring and not be married? Again the answer is yes. But, why would I want to play out either of these scenarios?

Can you find a place in the New Testament where baptism is ever called a "symbol"? I haven't been able to. What I do find is Peter telling people that it is necessary in order to have their sins forgiven (Acts 2:38).

I guess the real question is: Why would I want to be a Christian and not be baptized? If I prayed for someone on their deathbed and they accepted Christ I don’t think the fact that they didn’t get baptized would keep them out of heaven. But, I would offer to pour water on their head! Not because it’s “required” but because it’s a good thing to do! I wasn’t baptized until 10 years after I accepted Christ. Getting dunked didn’t make me any more saved. It was however a special experience for me and I should not have waited so long!

Actually, the question really is "can one be a Christian without being baptized?" At least that's what I understand from the topic that we're talking about. If baptism is necessary to become a member of the New Covenant, then isn't baptism necessary to being a Christian? Even if you want to word it another way: if baptism is essential to being saved, then isn't it essential to being a Christian?

Jesus didn’t need to be saved, He was perfect and without sin, Yet, he choose to be baptized. If nothing else that should be reason enough for us.

Jesus was baptized by John under the Old Covenant because it was something that God commanded through one of his propehts (John the Baptizer was a prophet). Had Jesus not done this, he would have disobeyed a direct command from God and would have no longer been perfect. This is the reason why Jesus says it was necessary for him to bebaptized to fulfill all righteousness - he had to be perfectly obedient.

The baptism that we are talking about is different than the one that Jesus had - his was under the Old Covenant. We are talking about a baptism that takes place to put one into the New Covenant, a baptism that is commanded by Christ as part of the great commission. Please let me know if this helps to clear things up about which baptism we are talking about :)

[- DRA -]

Jesus commanded us to be baptized, but we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. If someone accepts Jesus' sacrifice, and dies the next week without having been baptized, then salvation is a promise of God. But if a Christian goes a long time without obeying this command, then he or she is living in a state of disobedience. It is very dangerous to say, "Naw, I don't need to be baptised." That person is not listening to the voice of His Lord and Master. At some point, God may look upon this as rebellion, and this is a very dangerous place. Get baptised in obedience to the Lord.

If you are in the hospital, get sprinkled instead of dunked. God won't care.

Consider Mark 16:15-16. It is a command given by Jesus to the apostles. In essence, He is telling them to preach the gospel, and then what to preach. All we have to do is go to the book of Acts and see what the apostles and first-century Christians taught people to do to be saved. Did they teach salvation by faith alone? Or, did they teach salvation by faith? Study the conversions in the book of Acts. Start with Acts 2:38,41,47. Does it teach salvation by faith alone? Nope. Continue through the book and see what you find.

I highly suggest you study and consider Romans 6:3-11. It details what occurs during baptism -- NOT before.

As far as sprinkling is concerned, I suggest that you consider Acts 8:35-39.

[Nadiine]

[/size][/font]

Can you find a place in the New Testament where baptism is ever called a "symbol"? I haven't been able to. What I do find is Peter telling people that it is necessary in order to have their sins forgiven (Acts 2:38).


Yes, it's found in Romans 6:1-11 (spec. vs 6) Likeness.

Likeness in Greek is "homoioma" (from root word "homoioo" = resemblance/similtude): = a form, resemblance - made like to, likeness, shape, similtude.

Baptism is a symbol in this context.

[aggie03]

Such a fun topic to discuss. It seems so simple when you really look at it.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

I have heard it before, it dosen't say that if you are not baptized you will be condemned, only if you do not believe. When I look at this I see that I am told by the Lord to do TWO things and then I will be saved, not just ONE.

For example, if I hand you the keys to my car and tell you to open the car doors and start the ignition then you can drive the car, but if you do not open the car door you cannot drive it.

Does this mean you can still drive the car. NO. There is still something else you need to do.


Good point :thumbsup:

[aggie03]

Yes, it's found in Romans 6:1-11 (spec. vs 6) Likeness.

Likeness in Greek is "homoioma" (from root word "homoioo" = resemblance/similtude): = a form, resemblance - made like to, likeness, shape, similtude.

Baptism is a symbol in this context.

Romans 6:3-11 ESV

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (6) We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (7) For one who has died has been set free from sin. (8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. (9) We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. (10) For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. (11) So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Where specifically are you referring to? Also, please remember that you must include the overall meaning of the passage in your explanation of this text.

[Nadiine]

Such a fun topic to discuss. It seems so simple when you really look at it.


Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

I have heard it before, it dosen't say that if you are not baptized you will be condemned, only if you do not believe. When I look at this I see that I am told by the Lord to do TWO things and then I will be saved, not just ONE.



Sure it SEEMS simple..............................

IF THE BIBLE WERE WRITTEN ORIGINALLY IN ENGLISH ONLY AND THIS WAS THE ONLY VERSE IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE THAT EXISTED.

I can use Eph 2:8-9 ALONE, where FAITH ALONE is salvation & THAT seems simple to understand.

I can also use Acts 10 to prove that Cornelius was saved & full of the Spirit (speaking in tongues) PRIOR to water baptism.
Indwelling of the Holy Spirit prior to water.

What you're skipping is ALL THE OTHER verses that we have on salvation & Baptism... along with the Greek language translation & grammar that make all the difference.

Other than that, ya, it's real simple.

This is why I quoted the excerpts from my Greek Study bible as to Acts 2:38... it isn't saying the baptism is FOR forgiveness of sin.

And ONLY Jesus' blood removes sin (Heb. 10 - which even sacrificed animal blood couldn't do at the price of a life - how is H20 removing sin?), and ONLY FAITH saves
Eph 2:8-9.

If you want to add water to Jesus' blood and Faith... then have at it. I won't. :)

[CooL_Genesis]

It is my belief, from what I've read in the Bible, that the baptism refers to the Holy Spirit entering you when you're born again, like at the day of Pentecost. This is what's needed to be saved... the rebirth into Christ after having died in Him. Babies are baptized every day, but if they're never born again, do you think they'll make it into heaven when they're older? Don't know... I trust God that He is just!

The Holy Spirit is what purges you of your sin, making you a new creation. Will you still sin? Yes... but it's covered by the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit helps you with repentance, afterall He is the Comforter.

I don't believe it to be a water baptism that gets you into Heaven, although Christ did command us to baptize with water. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" -Matthew 28:19

Even John the Baptist said...

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire." -Matthew 3:11

Notice no water is mentioned, but fire and the Holy Spirit. I think the Only thing we can do to be saved is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation and confess that very thing to men and not be ashamed of it. Being his disciples and trying to follow God's commandments is a plus and the Holy Spirit will make sure we're being guided into the footsteps of Christ, he works that way in me anyways.

He lets me know when I should be repenting for something I've done. Even when I don't think I'm at fault, He knows better. The Lord will never leave you, though you may have your doors closed to Him. He's still there... knocking...

-Genesis

[JonahII]

There are some folks here who do not believe that an individual can be saved on their death bed,either because they cannot be baptized at all or have to be sprinkled because submersion is not possible. I submit that you are sorely mistaken. Do you really serve that kind of God?

[aggie03]

Sure it SEEMS simple..............................

It is simple :) The correct explanation that deals with all of the verses should be simple.

IF THE BIBLE WERE WRITTEN ORIGINALLY IN ENGLISH ONLY AND THIS WAS THE ONLY VERSE IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE THAT EXISTED.

What does it matter what language the Bible was originally written? It was written in a common tongue, and a human language. This was for the express purpose that every person would be able to understand what God had said.

If you want to argue about translations, there are translations that have been put together by very educated people - some of whom have Greek as their first language. The New Testament translation of the American Standard Version had Joseph Thayer as the secretary of the New Testament. You would be very hard pressed to find a better Greek scholar than him. I would take his judgment with regard to Greek translation of any passage over any modern scholarship.

I can use Eph 2:8-9 ALONE, where FAITH ALONE is salvation & THAT seems simple to understand.

Faith is not what saves in Ephesians 2, grace is. Baptism is not what saves you in Mark 16, grace is. No matter where you turn in the Bible, anytime your talking about salvation, the thing that always saves mankind is the grace of God. That's pretty simple :)

I can also use Acts 10 to prove that Cornelius was saved & full of the Spirit (speaking in tongues) PRIOR to water baptism.

You can use Acts 10 to show that Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit just like the Apostles were, but you can't use it to show that he was saved. The text never says anywhere that he was saved. It's also interesting to note that he was baptized with water, just like those on the day of Pentecost. Water baptism was still necessary for them - so if you consider this with the other passages like your suggesting we do, the conclusion is pretty simple. Cornelius needed to be baptized.

What you're skipping is ALL THE OTHER verses that we have on salvation & Baptism...

He was dealing with one of the three places where Jesus commands water baptism. He also came to the correct, simple conclusion. Can you find a place where Jesus taught something else concerning baptism? Did Jesus ever say that it wasn't necessary? No - so there is only one conclusion, that it must be.

along with the Greek language translation & grammar that make all the difference.

Again, Thayer was a master with the Greek language. I believe that he did a better job with the Greek grammar of Mark 16 than you or I are able to do. The construct of the grammar in Mark 16 makes it very clear that one must be baptized - and these words are in red.

Other than that, ya, it's real simple.

You're right, it is very simple. The gospel always has been. Things only start to get complicate when people come along and try to change what the text says.

This is why I quoted the excerpts from my Greek Study bible as to Acts 2:38... it isn't saying the baptism is FOR forgiveness of sin.

How did Thayer and the New Testament committee of the ASV translate the word in Acts 2:38? This is from that translation:

Acts 2:38 ASV

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


This is probably the best translation for the word possible - and comes with the weight of Thayer's approval. I don't know who wrote the comments in your study Bible, but they are more than likely not on par with Thayer. I'm sorry, but I'll trust the tried and true scholarship on this instance.

And ONLY Jesus' blood removes sin (Heb. 10 - which even sacrificed animal blood couldn't do at the price of a life - how is H20 removing sin?), and ONLY FAITH saves
Eph 2:8-9.

This is why "unto" is the best translation. The baptism that Peter was talking about is not what saves you - the grace of God saves you. The baptism Peter was talking about is what gives you access to the grace of God. It is when you are baptized that you have access to the blood of Christ. All of this occurs through your faith (Colossians 2:12). This matches perfectly with the things that are being stated in Ephesians 2. Again, when you look at all of these verses together, it is amazing how simple it is. If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, then be baptized unto the remission of your sins, through your faith, by the grace of God.

If you want to add water to Jesus' blood and Faith... then have at it. I won't. :)

I'm not adding anything to Christ's blood, I'm just trying to teach people how to have access to it.

[BelovedWord]

The way I feel about this is summed up in this excerpt from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

To faith in Christ is attached the promise of forgiveness, and of all other blessings. Baptism is administered to those who already possess (at least profess) this faith, and symbolizes the dying to sin and rising to righteousness implicit in the act of faith (Rom 6). It is the symbol of a cleansing from sin and renewal by God's Spirit, but not the agency effecting that renewal, even instrumentally. Baptism is not, indeed, to be regarded as a bare symbol. It may be expected that its believing reception will be accompanied by fresh measures of grace, strengthening and fitting for the new life. This, however, as the life is already there, has nothing to do with the idea of baptism as an opus operatum, working a spiritual change in virtue of its mere administration. In Scripture the agency with which regeneration is specially connected is the Divine “word” (compare 1Peter1:23). Without living faith, in those capable of its exercise, the outward rite can avail nothing.

That says it all for me. :thumbsup:

God Bless,
Brian

[jad123]

There are some folks here who do not believe that an individual can be saved on their death bed,either because they cannot be baptized at all or have to be sprinkled because submersion is not possible. I submit that you are sorely mistaken. Do you really serve that kind of God?

While I believe that Baptism is a requirement for salvation I leave your example here to God and do not try to make assumptions. God will do as He pleases, it does not have to make sense to you or I. We are commanded to be baptised and I for one will NOT go against His commands.

[JonahII]

While I believe that Baptism is a requirement for salvation I leave your example here to God and do not try to make assumptions. God will do as He pleases, it does not have to make sense to you or I. We are commanded to be baptised and I for one will NOT go against His commands.

I, too, have been baptised because the Lord has commanded it. A person who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior on Sunday, and is killed in a car wreck on Monday, did not have time to obey this command. The Christian who has the time, and refuses to be baptised, is walking in willful disobedience to the Lord, and is in a very dangerous place. We do need to be baptised.

[jad123]

I, too, have been baptised because the Lord has commanded it. A person who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior on Sunday, and is killed in a car wreck on Monday, did not have time to obey this command. The Christian who has the time, and refuses to be baptised, is walking in willful disobedience to the Lord, and is in a very dangerous place. We do need to be baptised.

I agree with everything you just said but will add one thing. WE do NOT know if he was saved or not. As I said I am not going to play games with His commands. This is where the whole OSAS doctrine treads on very dangerous ground.

[jad123]

Sure it SEEMS simple..............................

IF THE BIBLE WERE WRITTEN ORIGINALLY IN ENGLISH ONLY AND THIS WAS THE ONLY VERSE IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE THAT EXISTED.

I can use Eph 2:8-9 ALONE, where FAITH ALONE is salvation & THAT seems simple to understand.

I can also use Acts 10 to prove that Cornelius was saved & full of the Spirit (speaking in tongues) PRIOR to water baptism.
Indwelling of the Holy Spirit prior to water.

What you're skipping is ALL THE OTHER verses that we have on salvation & Baptism... along with the Greek language translation & grammar that make all the difference.

Other than that, ya, it's real simple.

This is why I quoted the excerpts from my Greek Study bible as to Acts 2:38... it isn't saying the baptism is FOR forgiveness of sin.

And ONLY Jesus' blood removes sin (Heb. 10 - which even sacrificed animal blood couldn't do at the price of a life - how is H20 removing sin?), and ONLY FAITH saves
Eph 2:8-9.

If you want to add water to Jesus' blood and Faith... then have at it. I won't. :)

OK. We have the choice to believe or not believe, to accept or not to accept, to be baptised or not, to turn away from God, or to stand firm until the end. I will do what my Father has commanded me to do. I do agree with you that you cannot just look at the one line of scripture that I stated. All of the conversion stories in the Book of Acts include baptism. Youcan clearly read the sense of urgency to be baptised. It is through baptism that we are buried with Christ and are born again a new man.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Act 22:16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.

Rom 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? (2) May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (3) Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (4) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

1Pet 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

A study of church history will show you that the early church fathers taught the necessity of baptism for salvation. Men like Polycarp who was taught directly by the Apostle John. Do you not think John would have told him what was taught to him?

Although various Gnostic leaders had diverse beliefs, a common teaching was that converts would be saved through knowledge. They cannot be reborn or regenerated through water baptism. One of the most respected of the Church Fathers, Irenaeus (circa 130? - circa 200? CE), condemned the Gnostics as heretics. He wrote: "And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith...For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins"

Some Gnostic beliefs about baptism live on today among Evangelical and other conservative Protestant faith groups. They teach that baptism is a public acknowledgement of having been earlier saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The rite of baptism has no saving, regenerative power by itself.

In the end for me this is simple. God will save whom He pleases but has left us instructions so why not follow them.

[- DRA -]

I can use Eph 2:8-9 ALONE, where FAITH ALONE is salvation & THAT seems simple to understand.

Speaking of context, go back to verses 5-6a. Compare them to Colossians 2:12-13. Also consider Acts 19:5, which discusses the conversion of the Ephesians (the ones being addressed in Eph. 2:8-9). Then consider Eph. 2:8-9. BTW, where exactly do you see the words "faith alone" in that text. Could you please post the translation you uses those words?

I can also use Acts 10 to prove that Cornelius was saved & full of the Spirit (speaking in tongues) PRIOR to water baptism. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit prior to water.

Actually, it's not the indwelling of the Spirit, but the baptism with the Holy Spirit (see Acts 11:15-17).

Actually, if your reasoning agrees with Peter's, the only think that you can prove from Acts 10 is that none of the Jews with Peter could forbid the Gentiles from being baptized in the name of the Lord (see verses 47-48).

If you want to add water to Jesus' blood and Faith... then have at it. I won't. :)

Did Philip, who was under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit, add water to Jesus' blood in Acts 8:29, 35-39? Or, did he preach Jesus and how we can be freed from sin by being united with the Lord in baptism (see Romans 6:3-11, especially verse 7)?

[- DRA -]

Yes, it's found in Romans 6:1-11 (spec. vs 6) Likeness.

Likeness in Greek is "homoioma" (from root word "homoioo" = resemblance/similtude): = a form, resemblance - made like to, likeness, shape, similtude.

Baptism is a symbol in this context.

In your study of this passage, did you happen to notice verse 7? It describes how we are freed from sin i.e. synonymous with for the remission of sins in Acts 2:38 and washing away sins in Acts 22:16.

[pilgrimgal]

In answer to the original post my answer is "No", as probably has been repeated here...salvation comes via the blood of Christ when he died on the cross for us. We appropriate that through faith...not through baptism.

I am all for baptism, however. I just believe that there are persons in heaven who were never officially baptised by water..and didn't go through a ceremony..

And I am reminded of the Good Thief..who died with Jesus who showed faith and Christ told him that he would be in paradise that very day.

In Baptism we die in Christ to the old and put on the new by the washing of water. And we become even more part of the Christian community. Jesus, himself, was baptised by John in the river Jordan.

[- DRA -]

The way I feel about this is summed up in this excerpt from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

Quote:

To faith in Christ is attached the promise of forgiveness, and of all other blessings. Baptism is administered to those who already possess (at least profess) this faith, and symbolizes the dying to sin and rising to righteousness implicit in the act of faith (Rom 6). It is the symbol of a cleansing from sin and renewal by God's Spirit, but not the agency effecting that renewal, even instrumentally. Baptism is not, indeed, to be regarded as a bare symbol. It may be expected that its believing reception will be accompanied by fresh measures of grace, strengthening and fitting for the new life. This, however, as the life is already there, has nothing to do with the idea of baptism as an opus operatum, working a spiritual change in virtue of its mere administration. In Scripture the agency with which regeneration is specially connected is the Divine “word” (compare 1Peter1:23). Without living faith, in those capable of its exercise, the outward rite can avail nothing.

End of quote.


That says it all for me. :thumbsup:

God Bless,
Brian

Sorry, but the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is just the work of men (mankind). The real issue when discussing baptism is what God says about it i.e. 1 Peter 4:11a, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

[- DRA -]

In answer to the original post my answer is "No", as probably has been repeated here...salvation comes via the blood of Christ when he died on the cross for us. We appropriate that through faith...not through baptism.

Jesus died on the cross. About 52 days later, Peter preached to the Jews concerning Jesus in Acts 2. Some believed the message (verse 37). Therefore, what did Peter tell them to do in verse 38 to have their sins taken away? Did he tell them to believe? Nope, they already believed (concluded by the question they asked in verse 37). So, did Peter tell them that they were already saved and that they didn't need to worry about the sin in their lives? Nope. That's not what verse 38 says either. What does Peter tell those Jews to do in verse 38? And, how did they respond to the command given in verse 38 (see verse 41)? And, according to verse 41, who was baptized? Isn't it those who "gladly received his word?" Doesn't that imply or infer something about those that weren't baptized? Sure it does.

Think about it. :idea:

[- DRA -]

I, too, have been baptised because the Lord has commanded it. A person who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior on Sunday, and is killed in a car wreck on Monday, did not have time to obey this command. The Christian who has the time, and refuses to be baptised, is walking in willful disobedience to the Lord, and is in a very dangerous place. We do need to be baptised.

Not to be offensive, but your reasoning "assumes" that one can accept Jesus without being baptized.

May I be so bold as to suggest a diligent study of Romans 6:3-11. It describes in detail what occurs DURING baptism -- not BEFORE. Therefore, we can only claim the blessings after we united with the Lord on His terms -- being baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.

[JonahII]

Not to be offensive, but your reasoning "assumes" that one can accept Jesus without being baptized.

May I be so bold as to suggest a diligent study of Romans 6:3-11. It describes in detail what occurs DURING baptism -- not BEFORE. Therefore, we can only claim the blessings after we united with the Lord on His terms -- being baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.

You are not offensive. You are a precious brother in the Lord. You have stated your position in a classy manner. Romans is my favorite book, and I did as you requested. Now I will suggest to you that you prayerfully consider Romans 10: 9-11.

We are to be baptised. It is a command. If there are circumstances, such as the thief on the cross, where not being baptised is not an act of willful disobedience, the Lord has this covered by His Precious Blood. Some will say that Jesus' work had not been complete when this happened. I submit that Jesus died before the thief. His work was complete when He said, "It is finished!"

[crowleyrj]

My reply to the questionasked, "Do you believe Baptism is essential for Salvation? (2)" (http://www.christianforums.com/t1240984)yes!!!! I am a firm believer because acording to Luke16-16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved;but he that believeth not shall be damned. Being the religion we try to live our lives as close to scripture as possible.

[Catechumen]

If there are circumstances, such as the thief on the cross, where not being baptised is not an act of willful disobedience, the Lord has this covered by His Precious Blood. Some will say that Jesus' work had not been complete when this happened. I submit that Jesus died before the thief. His work was complete when He said, "It is finished!"

Jesus died before the thief. Jesus died after the thief. How is that relevant to the discussion?

[jad123]

Jesus died before the thief. Jesus died after the thief. How is that relevant to the discussion?

It is relevant because one of the agruements against baptism being a requirement is the thief died without being baptised. Until Jesus was raised from the dead, we were still under the OLD covenant.

[Bay]

What about those good people in poor villages that have no way of knowing or being given the chance for baptism? No,I don't believe in all cases because you are not baptised you can't enter Heaven.

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Not to be offensive, but your reasoning "assumes" that one can accept Jesus without being baptized.

May I be so bold as to suggest a diligent study of Romans 6:3-11. It describes in detail what occurs DURING baptism -- not BEFORE. Therefore, we can only claim the blessings after we united with the Lord on His terms -- being baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.

You are not offensive. You are a precious brother in the Lord. You have stated your position in a classy manner. Romans is my favorite book, and I did as you requested. Now I will suggest to you that you prayerfully consider Romans 10: 9-11.

We are to be baptised. It is a command. If there are circumstances, such as the thief on the cross, where not being baptised is not an act of willful disobedience, the Lord has this covered by His Precious Blood. Some will say that Jesus' work had not been complete when this happened. I submit that Jesus died before the thief. His work was complete when He said, "It is finished!"

Thank you. I fear sometimes that my comments don't reflect the true concern that I feel for others when discussing the Scriptures.

Thank you for considering Romans 6:3-11. Hopefully, we are in agreement that DURING baptism one is united with the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection to die to sin, be freed from it, and become alive to God.

I appreciate you introducing Romans 10:9-11 into our discussion. Here's the way I view the passage: I believe and I accept it as the truth i.e. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God ..." (2 Timothy 3:16a). However, I also believe and accept Romans 6:3-11 as the truth. Both are true. The problem comes with determining what it means to "believe." I understand the faith or belief that God accepts is the one that obeys Him i.e. James 2:21-24. In this light, I ask that you consider Acts 8:12. In essence, it says, "When they believed ... both men and women were baptized." And, while we are discussing Acts 8, also note verses 35-39. It shows how Romans 6:3-11 and 10:9-11 harmonize. To summarize, it's not a matter of choosing between Romans 6:3-11 or Romans 10:9-11. They both are true. Those that have the belief that God accept obey Him by being united with Jesus in baptism.

Who died first on the cross is irrelevant. The point is that Jesus' testament (will) went into effect after His death (Hebrews 9:15-17). And, using that thought, we can view Peter's sermon in Acts chapter 2 as the reading of Jesus' will. From that point on, baptism in the name of the Lord was commanded i.e. Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-47, Acts 19:5, Acts 22:16.

The thief on the cross died while living under the law of Moses. Therefore, he is not an example for us to consider of one being saved under the gospel of Christ.

[jad123]

What about those good people in poor villages that have no way of knowing or being given the chance for baptism? No,I don't believe in all cases because you are not baptised you can't enter Heaven.

Scripture is very clear that the Lord has revealed Himslef to all and He is in all of our hearts.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in His time; also He has set eternity in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.

[- DRA -]

What about those good people in poor villages that have no way of knowing or being given the chance for baptism? No,I don't believe in all cases because you are not baptised you can't enter Heaven.

Please explain more what you have in mind.

Do these people not have access to a Bible? Do they not know about God? Is there insufficient water for baptizing where these people live?

[- DRA -]

My reply to the questionasked, "Do you believe Baptism is essential for Salvation? (2)" (http://www.christianforums.com/t1240984)yes!!!! I am a firm believer because acording to Luke16-16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved;but he that believeth not shall be damned. Being the religion we try to live our lives as close to scripture as possible.

:wave:

Yes, Mark 16:16 is clear that baptism is essential to being saved.

Focusing on the Scriptures is an excellent way to live i.e. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:3.

:clap:

[aggie03]

Romans 6:3-11 ESV

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (6) We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (7) For one who has died has been set free from sin. (8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. (9) We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. (10) For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. (11) So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Where specifically are you referring to? Also, please remember that you must include the overall meaning of the passage in your explanation of this text.



If Nadiine is still here, I would like to see her explanation of this passage. Anyone else may feel free to do so as well :)

I am also wondering if anyone had a response to this post : http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=23956153&postcount=290

[Bay]

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.Please explain more what you have in mind.

Do these people not have access to a Bible? Do they not know about God? Is there insufficient water for baptizing where these people live?

[aggie03]

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.

I would suggest that you do a study over Romans 2 :) This may help with the situation that you are presenting.

[Catechumen]

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.

I wholeheartedly agree! :amen:

[WesWoodell]

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.

How can you say that for sure?

And if that's true, why do we have missionaries. Why did Jesus say:

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(NIV)

If all a person has to do to get to heaven is never hear the gospel, then why do we tell anyone? We're actually cutting their chance at eternal life in half just by sharing Christ with them according to your logic.

And when you say "it has nothing to do with a book" I hope you're not talking about the book God has written ...

[Catechumen]

If all a person has to do to get to heaven is never hear the gospel, then why do we tell anyone? We're actually cutting their chance at eternal life in half just by sharing Christ with them according to your logic.

And when you say "it has nothing to do with a book" I hope you're not talking about the book God has written ...

I know this post isn't addressed to me, but I feel the need to respond since I agree with what was said by Bay.

It's not enough for someone to simply not hear the Gospel in order for them to attain salvation. People need to obey their consciences and lead good and moral lives. Everyone knows God in some way or another and our salvation is determined by the way we answer God's call to us personally. These people don't know Jesus, so they know God in a different way. As long as people follow the path God leads them on in their lives, which is different for every single person, they will be awarded salvation. The Christian God is a personal God and to say that there is a specific requirement to attaining salvation that everyone must complete before they die is quite simply untrue. Read Romans 2 if you desire Scriptural support.

When he says it has nothing to do with a book he is talking about the Bible. I think he means that our salvation has nothing to do with a book that was written by men or by the laws and rules that religion tries to place on us, but is dependent upon the grace of God. This is truly what I believe.

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Please explain more what you have in mind.

Do these people not have access to a Bible? Do they not know about God? Is there insufficient water for baptizing where these people live?

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.

Your public profile reveals that you are struggling with your faith. That is also evidenced by your reference to "a book." Relative to our discussion, the Bible is not "a book," but "God's word." I suggest deciding what you believe about passages such as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and 2 Peter 1:3. It's either God's word or it isn't. And, it either completely furnishes us with all we need for life and godliness or it doesn't.

Consider the command given to the apostles in Mark 16:15-16. In essence, Jesus commanded the apostles to take the gospel to every person. Why? Because they needed to hear that salvation was offered through Jesus. Why did they need to hear that message? Was it because they were saved and headed for heaven ... or because they were lost and not headed for heaven? The inference is that people were lost and needed to be saved. Think about it.

As far as the mentally incapable are concerned, our God is a fair and just God. All things are laid bare before Him (Hebrews 4:13). To be blunt, He alone knows who can discern the truth and who can't. Therefore, He'll judge fairly.

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: aggie03

Romans 6:3-11 ESV

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (6) We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (7) For one who has died has been set free from sin. (8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. (9) We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. (10) For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. (11) So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.


If Nadiine is still here, I would like to see her explanation of this passage. Anyone else may feel free to do so as well :)

I am also wondering if anyone had a response to this post : http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=23956153&postcount=290

Greetings, :wave:

Generally speaking, I see the passage describing two things:
1.) What occurs during baptism
2.) How we are born again i.e. John 3:3-5

In more specific terms, the passage describes baptism as a means for us to be united with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection where we die to sin, are freed from it, and become alive to God.

The clear picture is that these blessings were realized DURING baptism -- not BEFORE.

[WesWoodell]

It's not enough for someone to simply not hear the Gospel in order for them to attain salvation. People need to obey their consciences and lead good and moral lives. Everyone knows God in some way or another and our salvation is determined by the way we answer God's call to us personally. These people don't know Jesus, so they know God in a different way. As long as people follow the path God leads them on in their lives, which is different for every single person, they will be awarded salvation. The Christian God is a personal God and to say that there is a specific requirement to attaining salvation that everyone must complete before they die is quite simply untrue.

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(NIV)


When he says it has nothing to do with a book he is talking about the Bible. I think he means that our salvation has nothing to do with a book that was written by men

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(NIV)

[Schroeder]

Sorry, but the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is just the work of men (mankind). The real issue when discussing baptism is what God says about it i.e. 1 Peter 4:11a, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. of course you are assuming they did not study the Word of Truth before writting it. it is no different then you interpreting what the bible says. you are saying that JUST because it is in disagreement with what you believe it says. and the Fact that you do not understand that we are NOT FREED from sin BUT freed from the CURSE of Sin, which is death, makes me wonder if you do discern scripture correctly. the blood COVERS our sins. it was done once for all. the baptism of the SPirit JESUS' baptism which John the baptist said he would give us NOT his water baptism. and which 1 cor 12:13 says we DO get, is what gives us this new birth. the new birth is Christ in us through the SPirit which dwells in us. that which God sees and not our flesh which is death because of sin. read rom 8. read heb 9:14. the FACT that we live by the Spirit, which is Christ is how we are united in his death. because it is Christ which died and it is he who God sees in us, his ONE ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ONE ACT OF OBEDIANCE. rom 5. That is why it is CALLED GRACE. as for those using mark 16:16. he is speaking of HIS baptism, whom John the baptist spoke about. he is saying those who believe in me and are baptized by me will be saved but those who do not believe in me will not be baptized by me. Titus 3:5 is so clear in saying that the SPirit is what gives us our rebirth and renewal. the ONLY WORK given us to do is told even asked of Christ and he answered it in john 6:28-29. it is UNDENIABLE. "Jesus answered, " The WORK of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Why do you complecate it so. Read on and he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. what does he say it means "The words i speak they are SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE." Why people insist on adding a act of ours in water baptism to it i do not understand.

[Schroeder]

If Nadiine is still here, I would like to see her explanation of this passage. Anyone else may feel free to do so as well :)

I am also wondering if anyone had a response to this post : http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=23956153&postcount=290 well i must ask this simple question. if you read rom 8:9 which says "... if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." So in that aspect , HOW do we please God if as this passage and the one above it says Those controlled by the sinfull nature connot please God. and it says in the first part of 9 we are controlled by the Spirit and not the sinfullnature. How can we please God in doing the act of water baptism when according to you the Spirit is not in us untill AFTER we do water baptism. Since the Spirit is not in us. it says with out the Spirit in us we cant do what God askes us. So in essence we can't obey a command to be saved in such a way as doing a act of water baptism if we are not already saved(the Spirit in us) in the first place. So we must determine HOW we get this Spirit in us before we can say HOW we can obey any of Gods commands. And as you say water baptism is commanded to be done. you say for salvation which as i just showed is not possible. Which leads us to what eph 2 says saved by GRACE through Faith. the THROUGH faith part is explained in rom 10:8-18. notice verse 10 then read the account of acts 10 with what he says in Acts 15:8. If you cant see that water baptism is NOT reguired for salvation or for your new birth and or to receive this Grace of God then you just dont want to for some reason or another. it is the baptism of Christ HIS BAPTISM whom john the baptist said he would give us. OF THE SPIRIT.

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Sorry, but the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is just the work of men (mankind). The real issue when discussing baptism is what God says about it i.e. 1 Peter 4:11a, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

of course you are assuming they did not study the Word of Truth before writting it. it is no different then you interpreting what the bible says. you are saying that JUST because it is in disagreement with what you believe it says. and the Fact that you do not understand that we are NOT FREED from sin BUT freed from the CURSE of Sin, which is death, makes me wonder if you do discern scripture correctly. the blood COVERS our sins. it was done once for all. the baptism of the SPirit JESUS' baptism which John the baptist said he would give us NOT his water baptism. and which 1 cor 12:13 says we DO get, is what gives us this new birth. the new birth is Christ in us through the SPirit which dwells in us. that which God sees and not our flesh which is death because of sin. read rom 8. read heb 9:14. the FACT that we live by the Spirit, which is Christ is how we are united in his death. because it is Christ which died and it is he who God sees in us, his ONE ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ONE ACT OF OBEDIANCE. rom 5. That is why it is CALLED GRACE. as for those using mark 16:16. he is speaking of HIS baptism, whom John the baptist spoke about. he is saying those who believe in me and are baptized by me will be saved but those who do not believe in me will not be baptized by me. Titus 3:5 is so clear in saying that the SPirit is what gives us our rebirth and renewal. the ONLY WORK given us to do is told even asked of Christ and he answered it in john 6:28-29. it is UNDENIABLE. "Jesus answered, " The WORK of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Why do you complecate it so. Read on and he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. what does he say it means "The words i speak they are SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE." Why people insist on adding a act of ours in water baptism to it i do not understand.

I wasn't assuming anything ... just making an observation. Real Bible study involves more than just going to an encyclopedia or commentary. It actually involves studying the Scriptures.

The difference is that my understanding will be explained with a scriptural basis offered. To illustrate, I believe that we are indeed "freed from sin" according to Romans 6:7. You deny this point. And, while you are concerned with my ability to "discern scripture correctly," I am concerned with your inability or unwillingness to accept what the Bible plainly says.

The baptism commanded in Acts 2:38 was in the name of Jesus Christ? How is that baptism identified in Acts 10:47-48? Is it the baptism with the Holy Spirit, or is it baptism in water? Also, Philip preached Jesus in Acts 8:35. In response to the message he heard, did the eunuch desire to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, or was it in water (see verses 36-39)?

The baptism promised by John (and Jesus) in Acts 1:4-5 fell upon the apostles in Acts 2:1-4 and was accompanied by speaking in tongues. This baptism also came upon Cornelius and his household (the first Gentile converts) in Acts 10 (Acts 10:44-46; 11:15-16) and was accompanied by speaking in tongues. Is this the baptism that you claim?

As for the Corinthians, they were baptized in Acts 18:8. In 1 Corinthians 1, we discover that they were baptized by different preachers. Paul baptized some, Apollos some, and Cephas some. Which baptism was this? Was this the baptism with the Holy Spirit, or the baptism in water (in the name of the Lord - note 1 Cor. 1:13)?

Why do I complicate things so? Answer: probably because Jesus said so. You see, you can't just form an understanding from one passage of Scripture without harmonizing it with others. Don't take my word for it. Check it out yourself. Matthew 4:5-7. Matthew 22:23-33. A single passage of Scripture doesn't stand alone. The truth will harmonize with other Scriptures. Assuming, of course, that one is really looking for the truth.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Sorry, but the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is just the work of men (mankind). The real issue when discussing baptism is what God says about it i.e. 1 Peter 4:11a, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. it is BUT did they not study the Word before they wrote it. did they not use the same ways you did, did they not seek the guidance of the Spirit. you say no though you cant say that with certainty. yet we are to believe you do, though we dont know for certainty. the real issue about baptism is which one it is talking about. seeing how there are THREE different types mentioned. luke where he speaks of having a baptism to do, his sacrifice. water baptism(used to associate yourself with a teaching), and the Spirit(salvation new birth). the problem arises when you see the word baptism and make it mean only one thing water baptism.




I wasn't assuming anything ... just making an observation. Real Bible study involves more than just going to an encyclopedia or commentary. It actually involves studying the Scriptures.
Well that is one way to study. Yes i agree you must Not take anyones straight word for it on there interprtation, but they can help.

The difference is that my understanding will be explained with a scriptural basis offered. To illustrate, I believe that we are indeed "freed from sin" according to Romans 6:7. You deny this point. And, while you are concerned with my ability to "discern scripture correctly," I am concerned with your inability or unwillingness to accept what the Bible plainly says.
YES Rom 6:7. You of course will use Acts 2:38 or some water baptism passage or what you think is water baptism. WHEN in fact this passage deals with your new birth. Like john 3:5, col. 2:11-13. 3:10-12 eph 4:22-24 gal 26:-27 ROm 13:14 2 cor 3:17-18 AND rom 8 explains it all or puts it all together. THAT, it is the SPirit which gives the Spirit which is what your new birth is and that it is the Spirit that brought Christ to life and is what brings you to life, or give the new birth. SO NO I NEVER HAVE DENIED IT AT ALL. Or i should say i read it correctly. it says if we have died we are free from sin. THE point is what SIN is and what it does. it is NOT doing God's will and causes DEATH. if you live by your new birth or the SPirit in you, which is Christ neither of these apply to you. BUT YES YOU DO STILL SIN, BUT the curse(death) is not on you. OR are you sinless. So no you are NOT discerning it correctly. Your new birth or the SPirit in you is what is sinless because it is Christ.
The baptism commanded in Acts 2:38 was in the name of Jesus Christ? How is that baptism identified in Acts 10:47-48? Is it the baptism with the Holy Spirit, or is it baptism in water? Also, Philip preached Jesus in Acts 8:35. In response to the message he heard, did the eunuch desire to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, or was it in water (see verses 36-39)? We are to do ALL things in the name of the lord. THAT phrase is not special for water baptism. read col. 3:17. It was not commanded in acts 2:38. Other wise when asked in acts 16:30-31 he would have told them the same thing. WELL it is very clear that the baptism in verse 47-48 is water BECAUSE he said it was. was the baptism spoke in 11:16 water or Spirit. AND did he NOT say they were baptized this way. does NOT acts 15:8 say why and what faith, belief was reguired for this Spirit baptism too happen. and does not 1 cor 12:13 say very CLEARLY we are ALL baptized by this ONE SPIRIT. did NOT GOD say he was say he ACCEPTED them when he say there HEARTS OR THERE ACT OF WATER BAPTISM. the eunuch desired to be saved or first to understand he then was taught and was saved. HE had to have been according to what acts 15:8 says GOD sees when you BELIEVE. and rom 8 says without the SPirit or new birth you do not please God.

The baptism promised by John (and Jesus) in Acts 1:4-5 fell upon the apostles in Acts 2:1-4 and was accompanied by speaking in tongues. This baptism also came upon Cornelius and his household (the first Gentile converts) in Acts 10 (Acts 10:44-46; 11:15-16) and was accompanied by speaking in tongues. Is this the baptism that you claim? the baptism i claim is the one John said jesus would give US ALL. he did not say it was for those select few. the accompaning of speaking in tongues is one of many gifts given by the Spirit and was used to make a point to those around them. SOmething you refuse to discern. they spoke in tongues to show the jews they were wrong and that the gentiles could indeed be saved through Christ without needing to be circumsed which acts 10:45 says. How would they know they were saved or blessed by God if they had not. the baptism mentioned in 1 cor 12:13, are you claiming you are NOT Spirit baptized as this verse says. are you claiming you are not RAISED as Jesus was raised in rom 8:11. read rom 8:15 it says we RECEIVED this SPirit. TELL ME HOW. read Gal 3:2. and ASNSWER THIS GUESTION. is it not what the cornelius family did.

As for the Corinthians, they were baptized in Acts 18:8. In 1 Corinthians 1, we discover that they were baptized by different preachers. Paul baptized some, Apollos some, and Cephas some. Which baptism was this? Was this the baptism with the Holy Spirit, or the baptism in water (in the name of the Lord - note 1 Cor. 1:13)? and what does the passage in 1 cor 1 suggest it was for. DOES IT SPEAK OF SALVATION OR FORGIVNESS OF SINS. in saying that they did it to say THEY FOLLOW Paul or Cephas or Appollos shows that it was NOT for what you think it was for. other wise it would say "I was saved through pauls name or Cephas name. it shows they water baptized to show there ASSOCIATION with Christ teachings and what he did for them. PAul was mad because they were doing or saying they followed the TEACHER NOT THE what was taught, being what Christ did for them. If as you say it was taught or meant for salvation or forgiveness of sins then they would have spoken of it that way. And there would be no confusion over who did it, because it would have been to receive something in doing it. SO it is not in that it was water baptism it is in what water baptism does. as i said they were as we are to do ALL things in his name.

Why do I complicate things so? Answer: probably because Jesus said so. You see, you can't just form an understanding from one passage of Scripture without harmonizing it with others. Don't take my word for it. Check it out yourself. Matthew 4:5-7. Matthew 22:23-33. A single passage of Scripture doesn't stand alone. The truth will harmonize with other Scriptures. Assuming, of course, that one is really looking for the truth. no Jesus did not complicate things the pharisees did and were rebuked for it. Christ made it simple. he did the work reguired of GoD for SINS. we are asked to believe this. in return we are baptized in the SPirit as john said he would do to ALL and 1 cor 12:13 says is true, and are saved or given this new birth which frees us from sins( in helping us not to) and the curse of it. This SPirit in us is what unites us with his Blood which is what erased the sins or covered them as the old covenant blood tried to do because the SPirit is Christ and that is what God sees in us. SIMPLE IS IT NOT. and it is this Spirit whom is told us quaranteeing our inheritance. IT does not say water baptism was done to do this does it.

[Templedweller]

no.....if one essentially passes away b4 being baptized do I think that person will go to hell......No!!! If at all possible we ought to be, BUT it isn't an entrance into heaven thing I don't think.

[MargoPego]

You know, I've heard of people who say that a person has to be baptised with water in order to complete the salvation process, including one of my Bible college profs, but I've never ever believed that. Yes, I've been baptised by immersion, but I did it as a symbol of Jesus' death & resurrection & my obedience to Him. Also, I did it to follow His example, not because I thought I wasn't finished being saved yet.

I agree with the thought of the question about someone praying for salvation on her death bed without any water anywhere around in order to be baptised. I haven't yet read anything in Scripture telling us that we must be baptised if we want to be saved, & I've read the Bible many times. Of course I'm not perfect & I do miss things - something new always jumps out at me every time I read the Word again - but I think that something like that would have jumped out at me the first time.

[AnimePhoenix]

i aint gonna read all this, but let me put my two scents in, cruddy spelling and all: bastisism is a "visual aid" of sorts. it only symbolizes our souls being immersed in the grace and love of jesus christ.

[MargoPego]

i aint gonna read all this, but let me put my two scents in, cruddy spelling and all: bastisism is a "visual aid" of sorts. it only symbolizes our souls being immersed in the grace and love of jesus christ.

Amen!

[MargoPego]

i aint gonna read all this, but let me put my two scents in, cruddy spelling and all: bastisism is a "visual aid" of sorts. it only symbolizes our souls being immersed in the grace and love of jesus christ.

Amen! You said it so beautifully & simply. Well put! :)

[AnimePhoenix]

Amen! You said it so beautifully & simply. Well put! :)
thank you.

[Fredkc6cfb]

The only thing essential for salvation is accepting Christ Jesus for who He was, the paschal lamb offered by God for the redemption of man.
Baptism is a wonderful thing. It is an outward and open sign of your faith and new life in Christ, but if you do not have the chance in your lifetime to be baptised, I do not believe it will preclude your name from appearing in the Lamb's Book of Life.

[- DRA -]

You know, I've heard of people who say that a person has to be baptised with water in order to complete the salvation process, including one of my Bible college profs, but I've never ever believed that. Yes, I've been baptised by immersion, but I did it as a symbol of Jesus' death & resurrection & my obedience to Him. Also, I did it to follow His example, not because I thought I wasn't finished being saved yet.

I agree with the thought of the question about someone praying for salvation on her death bed without any water anywhere around in order to be baptised. I haven't yet read anything in Scripture telling us that we must be baptised if we want t