Fatima

[Artificial Intelligence]

So, what is your view on Fatima? Is this a revelation from God, a delusion, or a deviously crafted deception from Satan and his forces? This is not just a poll but a discussion of the Fatima texts.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/Our_Lady_of_Fatima.jpg/180px-Our_Lady_of_Fatima.jpg

[Entertaining_Angels]

I put any and all Mary sightings in the same category with holy laughter, gold dust sprinklings, et al.

I don't believe it is of God.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Concerning the secret of Fatima:

We then looked up at Our Lady, who said to us so kindly and so sadly:
“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”.

----

"I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly; but you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make Me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it[My Immaculate Heart]; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne."

"No, my daughter. Are you suffering a great deal? Don't lose heart. I will never forsake you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God."

----

"I want you to come here on the 13th of next month, to continue to pray the Rosary every day in honour of Our Lady of the Rosary [Marry], in order to obtain peace for the world and the end of the war, because only she [Marry] can help you."

----

"Continue to pray the Rosary in order to obtain the end of the war. In October [1917] Our Lord will come, as well as Our Lady of Dolours and Our Lady of Carmel. Saint Joseph will appear with the Child Jesus to bless the world. God is pleased with your sacrifices. He does not want you to sleep with the rope on, but only to wear it during the daytime."

----

:sigh:

[RichardT]

I voted for deception... Though , it might be a delusion...

[Raistlinorr]

If Jesus wanted me to pray on beads or to his mother he would have instructed me to do so.


Other than that I never realy regard Marry sightings with a real thought. I'm waiting for ppl to see Noah :) .

God Bless
Raist

[Quantos]

Tagging to watch.

[Lynn73]

It's deception. A good book to read on the subject of the "Mary" apparitions and her messages is: MESSAGES FROM HEAVEN by Jim Tetlow. He goes through all this stuff examining it in the light of the word of God.

[Prophet01]

The miracles and signs witnessed by thousands of people at fatima simply defy explination.


There was a crowd of around 70,000 people all of whom saw the sun fall from the sky and dry the earth, I do not believe, that 70,000 people all at the same time fell foul to delusion, no its either from God or From Satan.

but why would satan want to prove the existance of the spiritual world, deception is his strengh, the more things like this happen the more people will come to believe in the spirit world, the more apperitions of Christian manifestations, the more they will believe in Christ.


With that in mind I will leave the rest of this post up to Christ, to speak to your hearts.

If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rebels against himself and is divided, he cannot stand but is finished!

[Raistlinorr]

but why would satan want to prove the existance of the spiritual world, deception is his strengh, the more things like this happen the more people will come to believe in the spirit world, the more apperitions of Christian manifestations, the more they will believe in Christ.



The only thing I can think of for this is what it talks about in revolations where the AC gets ppl to believe he is God and work great wonders.

He could prove the existance of a spiritual world so that those who say they do not believe will follow. I'm sure he might lead end up leading a few to Christ because of his praide though these would be accident and few. Most would follow him thinking him to be Christ as I'm sure a few Christians will also be decived in that time also.

But this is just a guess as to why he would do such a thing. So I could be wrong only God knows for sure.

God Bless
Raist

[RichardT]

The miracles and signs witnessed by thousands of people at fatima simply defy explination.


There was a crowd of around 70,000 people all of whom saw the sun fall from the sky and dry the earth, I do not believe, that 70,000 people all at the same time fell foul to delusion, no its either from God or From Satan.

but why would satan want to prove the existance of the spiritual world, deception is his strengh, the more things like this happen the more people will come to believe in the spirit world, the more apperitions of Christian manifestations, the more they will believe in Christ.


With that in mind I will leave the rest of this post up to Christ, to speak to your hearts.

If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rebels against himself and is divided, he cannot stand but is finished!

Satan is not dividing against himself, he's deceiving people by getting them to worship mary...

[RichardT]

The only thing I can think of for this is what it talks about in revolations where the AC gets ppl to believe he is God and work great wonders.

He could prove the existance of a spiritual world so that those who say they do not believe will follow. I'm sure he might lead end up leading a few to Christ because of his praide though these would be accident and few. Most would follow him thinking him to be Christ as I'm sure a few Christians will also be decived in that time also.

But this is just a guess as to why he would do such a thing. So I could be wrong only God knows for sure.

God Bless
Raist

alot of "christians" are already deceived...

[Raistlinorr]

alot of "christians" are already deceived...

I agree but we must becarful not to judge them yet show them where they are going wrong at the same time. Only through the Lord can we do that though.

But the word of God does not lie and so long as we pray for guidance and reamin with his word we will not be decived either. But we have to truthfuly ask ourself do we always follow the word of God and his commands? We need to pray the Lord keep our eyes open to him all the time.

God Bless
Raist

[Lynn73]

The miracles and signs witnessed by thousands of people at fatima simply defy explination.


There was a crowd of around 70,000 people all of whom saw the sun fall from the sky and dry the earth, I do not believe, that 70,000 people all at the same time fell foul to delusion, no its either from God or From Satan.

but why would satan want to prove the existance of the spiritual world, deception is his strengh, the more things like this happen the more people will come to believe in the spirit world, the more apperitions of Christian manifestations, the more they will believe in Christ.


With that in mind I will leave the rest of this post up to Christ, to speak to your hearts.

If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rebels against himself and is divided, he cannot stand but is finished!

I truly don't think we understand just how subtle and deceptive Satan really is. He doesn't want us to know either. Do you not think he can't perform signs and miracles if it serves his deceptive purposes? I'm telling you that according to the Bible he can. He can appear as an angel of light. These appartions of so called miracles don't serve to bring people to Christ. They serve to keep people in bondage to a false religious sytem. They deceive people into believing lies. The messages coming from this "Mary" that keeps appearing contradict the Bible and that should be enough right there to tell you that it isn't the Mary of the Bible but a deceiving spirit.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because something supernatural and seemingly a miracle takes place that is has to be from God. That's what Satan wants you to think. What would you do if you were Satan and wanted to keep people from the true gospel and in bondage to a false religious system? What would help keep the people there? Cause supernatural events or miracles to occur because that will appear to validate their false beliefs. Therefore people are fooled into believing they have the truth. These manifestatios aren't Christian, they're manifestations put forth by deceiving spirits. I believe that even true believers can be deceived by these things. Compare all messages to the word of God, all experiences to the word of God. It is the final authority.




1Ti 4:1 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1ti+4:1&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1ti+4:1&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

2 Cor 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

[Prophet01]

"Satan is not dividing against himself, he's deceiving people by getting them to worship mary..."
lol, you crack me up.

devotion to St Mary is not worship, how funny you should think that. I mean you must have read at least the NT, as Christ was dying on the cross he looked down and saw his mother and John, how important are Christs dying words to the world - looking to his mother he said speaking about john "woman behold your son" and then looking to John he said "Son behold your mother" - if you had been John how devoted to Mary would you have been?


Was Jesus last words, the last words he would publically anounce before believer and none believer just intended for two individual people or for those two and the entire world, believer.... and none believer.

In effect Christ was saying, to Mary his mother you are also the mother of those who believe, look after them, mother them, help them. You are mother to the entire human race, the new eve.

And when he spoke to John, he spoke to each of us, believer and none believer, to us who believe he said behold your mother, honour your mother, be devoted to your mother she is here to help you, look after you and help you. To the none believer he left another message, a message that we have already heard, it is also for you and for the whole world.

[Prophet01]

"alot of "christians" are already deceived"



if a lot of christians are decieved, then our lords prophcy must have come true, the sheep pen must have been invaded by someone other than the shepherd and stolen some of the sheep, these savage wolves must have been in and not spared the flock, these false prophets however many there are, have risen up and have decieved many, just as our lord prophecied but









how do you know you are not decieved?

[Artificial Intelligence]

I agree but we must becarful not to judge them yet show them where they are going wrong at the same time. Only through the Lord can we do that though.I agree, this thread was not started in the spirit of attacking Catholics. There are deceived Catholics just as there are deceived Protestants. The point is the text of this letter and what it reveals from its message I believe is contrary to what scripture teaches. Everything I underlined in my second post is very alarming and the rest is nearly alarming as well. One need not read the stacks of commentaries on these texts to plainly see what it does teach which is contradictory to sound doctrine.

[Lynn73]

lol, you crack me up.

devotion to St Mary is not worship, how funny you should think that. I mean you must have read at least the NT, as Christ was dying on the cross he looked down and saw his mother and John, how important are Christs dying words to the world - looking to his mother he said speaking about john "woman behold your son" and then looking to John he said "Son behold your mother" - if you had been John how devoted to Mary would you have been?


Was Jesus last words, the last words he would publically anounce before believer and none believer just intended for two individual people or for those two and the entire world, believer.... and none believer.

In effect Christ was saying, to Mary his mother you are also the mother of those who believe, look after them, mother them, help them. You are mother to the entire human race, the new eve.

And when he spoke to John, he spoke to each of us, believer and none believer, to us who believe he said behold your mother, honour your mother, be devoted to your mother she is here to help you, look after you and help you. To the none believer he left another message, a message that we have already heard, it is also for you and for the whole world.


I'm sorry but the "Mary" of these apparitions and the "Mary" of Catholicism isn't the biblical Mary. Here a few quotes from some of the "Mary" apparitions:

"I call upon you to open yourselves completely to me so that through each of you I may be enabled to convert and save the world..."


"I alone am able to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved."

"Dear children, today I invite you to ask yourself why I am with you this long. I am the Mediatrix between you and God."


"I gave you six days for working. The seventh I have reserved for myself. But no one will give it to me. This is what causes the weight of my my Son's arm to be so crushing."

Taken from MESSAGES FROM HEAVEN by Jim Tetlow.


All these statements are in contradiction to Scripture, therefore this is a deceiving spirit. Also, Mary is not our mother. You are making a simple Scripure where Jesus is giving the care of Mary over to John to say something it does NOT say. She's not the mother of the word or the mother of believers. She's simply Jesus' mother who neeed Him as Savior just like the rest of us and she has died and gone on home to heaven. Don't mistakenly make of her more than the Bible does. Jesus wasn't going to be physically on earth anymore so he was simply telling John to care for Mary, nothing more to it.

[Prophet01]

"I agree, this thread was not started in the spirit of attacking Catholics. There are deceived Catholics just as there are deceived Protestants. "


I agree, but, hey come on dont tell your gramma how to suck eggs!

I agree with your statment of course there will be catholics who dont believe in fatima, but any catholic worth his salt would, it is a authorised site of a marian apperition by the vatican, but of course it is those Catholics that are decieved right?

[Raistlinorr]

how do you know you are not decieved?

The same can be ask of myself, you and every other Christian on the face of the earth.

The only thing we can do is pray that we are not look toward the Lord for guidance and trust in Him because he will not lead us astray. But if we are not careful a false prophet or the world can lead us astray.

God Bless
Raist

[Artificial Intelligence]

The same can be ask of myself, you and every other Christian on the face of the earth.

The only thing we can do is pray that we are not look toward the Lord for guidance and trust in Him because he will not lead us astray. But if we are not careful a false prophet or the world can lead us astray.

God Bless
RaistActually scripture is sufficient to determine how we stand. Prayer may be a good tool, but if one receives something contrary to scripture than this is something to ignore. 2 tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

[Lynn73]

"I agree, this thread was not started in the spirit of attacking Catholics. There are deceived Catholics just as there are deceived Protestants. "


I agree, but, hey come on dont tell your gramma how to suck eggs!

I agree with your statment of course there will be catholics who dont believe in fatima, but any catholic worth his salt would, it is a authorised site of a marian apperition by the vatican, but of course it is those Catholics that are decieved right?

Do you think that just because a marian apparition is authorized and has approval of the vatican that that makes it legitimate? No, I'm afraid not. The book I quoted from has a key guide in it denoting the various aspects of the apparitions. Some have formal church approval, some carry the Imprimatur of the local bishop, some denote messages from "Our Lady of Medjugorje. Some haven't yet been approved or rejected. A couple of the ones I quoted have official church approval and they contradict Scripture. Yes, Catholics are being deceived. It doesn't matter how many official vatican approvals these apparitions have. Compare the messages with the Bible. One of these appartions claims to be the Mediatrix between us and God. See 1 Tim 2:5. Believe the Bible, not the vatican.

[Artificial Intelligence]

I agree with your statment of course there will be catholics who dont believe in fatima, but any catholic worth his salt would, it is a authorised site of a marian apperition by the vatican, but of course it is those Catholics that are decieved right?You haven't made a case yet... we are talking about the text and what it teaches, really, not pointing fingers at Catholics or trying to provoke others to do so.

[Raistlinorr]

Actually scripture is sufficient to determine how we stand. Prayer may be a good tool, but if one receives something contrary to scripture than this is something to ignore. 2 tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


True but I meant the interpritation of scripture as it seems many have their own take on it you can see that from the posts on these forums. The only thing any of us agree on are the main points of scripture.

God Bless
Raist

[Prophet01]

deleted

[Artificial Intelligence]

True but I meant the interpritation of scripture as it seems many have their own take on it you can see that from the posts on these forums. The only thing any of us agree on are the main points of scripture.

God Bless
RaistVery true, I agree with this, yet most of those believe an interpretation of scripture and not from another source. I’m not concerned what someone could interpret from the bible, 99.5% of cults derive their spiritual insights from other sources outside the bible and infuse those beliefs as part of their belief system.

As Christian, it does not concern me that one is Baptist while another is Pentecostal, still we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. These have life through Christ alone, they are not bound to what an angel taught about someone named Mary and how Mary is a way to God and Salvation through her. It is not Mary’s position to promise salvation through a belief system focused on her heart.

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but through me.” John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2014:6;&version=50;)

But this Mary says: “He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it [My Immaculate Heart]; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne."

[Artificial Intelligence]

deletedSorry Dude, I thought you said you knew a lot about Fatima by reading commentaries (from another thread), if we discussed the authority of the RCC this thread would be locked in no time.

[Raistlinorr]

Very true, I agree with this, yet most of those believe an interpretation of scripture and not from another source. I’m not concerned what someone could interpret from the bible, 99.5% of cults derive their spiritual insights from other sources outside the bible and infuse those beliefs as part of their belief system.

As Christian, it does not concern me that one is Baptist while another is Pentecostal, still we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. These have life through Christ alone, they are not bound to what an angel taught about someone named Mary and how Mary is a way to God and Salvation through her. It is not Mary’s position to promises salvation through a belief system focused on her heart.

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but through me.” John 4:16

But this Mary says: “He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it [My Immaculate Heart]; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne."

I understand that I don't think it matters to the Lord that we are seperate denominations either as all truth will be given to us in heaven. But there are a few interpritations out there that are kind of scary like you said and it's sad that some wil lbelieve this is their only way to heaven. Any time we through in man teaching things from scripture we must look closely at what is being said.

What i mean by that is I personaly can't be ask where can I find "this" and come back with a list of scripture to answer the question. I have to research it (got one of those find it in the bible books). Which is kinda cool but thats also based on mans interpritation of scripture. For instance some of the things I may not see what they are talking about in the scripture either they are looking to deep into it or taking it out of context. So I've found praying then reading helps to find the answers I'm in search of. It's a great feeling when your praying about something open the bible and there is your answer.

But yeah I see what your talking about with cults/others taking scripture and creating false teachings such as mormons and JWs. I think it's good to compare what others are teaching and compare it to the word of God I have sitting beside me now. It makes it easier to see their false teachings I also compare what I've learned from my past "pagan religion" and look back at what I learned from it and see it's lies. But I can use that to show others the lies they might see.

For instance some believe that Marry was a virgin in the fact that she had never had a child before Christ. It is believed by some that at that time the term virgin meant one without child not one who has not had sex.

Edit: ^^This of course is believed by those who are not Christian or I've never met a Christian tht believes this.

God Bless
Raist

[vangelicmonk]

I think some are delusion and the rest are deception. I don't think it is of God at all. It really takes ones focus off of The Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. I just pray people will wake up, see the deception, and also see the beauty of just walking With Him and soaking in His Word.

These things are used by the devil so people will pray to them like Idols. The Catholic church doesn't endorse praying to statutes, but I think things like this happen and people do pray to the images. It is sad.

[Selznak]

I do not wish to offend any of my dear Catholic friends (and I have quite a few), but my vote is for deception.

[Prophet01]

Please I am a bit busy today (christmas Shopping) to reply to the posts so in the mean time check this out

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

[talitha]

hmmmm Concerning Marian apparitions I can't completely reject them out of hand - God could give people a vision of anything He wants; even though people who have passed away cannot cross the Great Divide to communicate with us (Luke 13:26), we can have a vision of them for some purpose, to reveal certain things. Sooo I agree with Faith_Warrior that we need to look at the content of what is revealed to determine the veracity of the experience.

At first as I was reading this, I could go along with it - we could see Mary's "Immaculate Heart" as being the idea of "be it unto me as you have said" -- total submission of self to the plans of God -- which is a good thing, just as the revelation that Peter famously had -- "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" -- is also a good thing and is truly the solid ground upon which the Church Universal is built. Those of us who are saved are surely devoted to the idea that we belong wholly to God, body, soul, and spirit, as Mary did.

Here's the sentence in that first section I have trouble with: "The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”. As I understand it, Russia WAS converted in the 9th century in terms of Christianity becoming a thriving force there, and ever since then there have been Christians in that country. Whether or not we agree with it, both the Orthodox and the "Old Believers" have "venerated" Mary all these years, so why would Mary say that "The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me"?? On another note, some may ask how a nation can be "consecrated" to a mere human, but what about the scripture that says, "Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession?" (Psalm 2:8) Just a thought......

Let's keep being "Berean" about it, separating wheat from chaff without destroying the wheat..... ;) I think there could possibly be some adding to or morphing of what was said in the actual vision in here, if indeed it is of God.

In the second quote I don't really see anything objectionable, but I think that this is possibly a symbolic message that has been taken literally. We could see Mary as symbolic of the Church Universal, ie: the Kingdom of God, and again her "Immaculate Heart" as the idea of being submitted to Him..... I don't know what the first phrase means ("I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly"), but this is an excerpt, isn't it?

And I wonder - did the woman in this vision ever say that she was Mary? Could this rather have been the spirit of wisdom? Rewording the third quote using a symbolic understanding could render, "...are you suffering a great deal? Don't lose heart. The Kingdom of God will never forsake you. Complete submission to Him will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God." HMMM.....

I personally have a check against requiring people to pray the Rosary so that the war will end - doesn't seem to square with scripture...... those last two things seem to me like a religious spirit that is hooking itself onto the Marian devotion that had already gotten out of hand among people in the RC.

I think this scripture could be relevant too:
"Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts and have put right before their faces the stumbling block of their iniquity. Should I be consulted by them at all? Therefore speak to them and tell them, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "Any man of the house of Israel who sets up his idols in his heart, puts right before his face the stumbling block of his iniquity, and then comes to the prophet, I the LORD will be brought to give him an answer in the matter in view of the multitude of his idols, in order to lay hold of the hearts of the house of Israel who are estranged from Me through all their idols."' (Ezekiel 14:3-6) -- I'm not talking about statues and icons -- I'm talking about excessive devotion to anything, anyone, or any concept above the Lord Jesus. We are ALL (Catholic or not) guilty of this from time to time and need to repent.

blessings
tal

[Prophet01]

""I call upon you to open yourselves completely to me so that through each of you I may be enabled to convert and save the world..."


"I alone am able to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved."

"Dear children, today I invite you to ask yourself why I am with you this long. I am the Mediatrix between you and God."


"I gave you six days for working. The seventh I have reserved for myself. But no one will give it to me. This is what causes the weight of my my Son's arm to be so crushing.""



Lynn I do not see these quotes in the fatima message, maybe I am wrong, maybe I have over looked them, but maybe the books your reading are misleading.

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/message/

[Artificial Intelligence]

Lynn I do not see these quotes in the fatima message, maybe I am wrong, maybe I have over looked them, but maybe the books your reading are misleading.

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/message/Been there already, that's not all of it, that is mostly focused on their commentary of it with selected parts of the letters. I'm not concerned with their commentary of it, I don't need someone else to teach me what something means, that's what the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit is for. When I go to my Church it's because I agree with the teachings, not that I lack knowledge through the God breathed inspired Word of God (our canonized bible), or that God would not teach me through his Spirit what I essentially need to know from his Word.

From what I posted concerning who is the way to God (Through Jesus alone; being God himself), from what the bible teaches compared to what this letter teaches it is clearly in conflict. Is there not a conflict there? Can Mary be "a" way to God, salvation through her? They being put there at the throne by her? The only such kind I know of shall be footstools.

This is simply not the same Mary of the bible.

[Tumbleweed64]

Nowhere in MY Bible does it say to worship the mother of Christ :thumbsup:

[Artificial Intelligence]

("I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly"), but this is an excerpt, isn't it?
I think that was regarding death.
"...are you suffering a great deal? Don't lose heart. The Kingdom of God will never forsake you. Complete submission to Him will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God." They had ropes tied around their waists tightly as penance, they wore them night and day and were suffering pain from it. Note how they were then told to just have the bindings on during the day.

[Prophet01]

nowhere in my bible does it say to worship mary, infact it is clearly condemned, worship is reserved only for God, Father, son and Holy Spirit, the marian apperitions do not request marian worship, that is silly, they request devotion to the imaculate heart of Mary, not worship. Of course we are devoted to God and that is of course a part of Worship but it does not constitute worship.

Devotion, is simply a strong selfless dedication to a principle or in this case a person, no worship, just dedication.

For devotion to become worship, one must recognise that person as God.

For example, I can be equally devoted to both the mother of my saviour and to my saviour himself, but my devotion to our lord becomes worship, simply because I recognise him as My Lord and My God, where St Mary will forever remain, nothing more than a created human being, but I can be as equally devoted to my child as I can my Spouse, So too can I be equally devoted to My saviours mother as I can my saviour, infact I would even go so far as to say, devotion to mary is a direct result of our WORSHIP of her son

[Artificial Intelligence]

Devotion, is simply a strong selfless dedication to a principle or in this case a person, no worship, just dedication.

For devotion to become worship, one must recognise that person as God.
Everyone worships something. What is placed central to ones heart is worship. Some worship money, some worship sex, some worship the one true Creator-God while others worship Mary. If devotion is that over the devotion of God than yes it is worship of that other.

[Prophet01]

I will make this statment so you know my possiton on marian worship...


Anyone who worships St Mary deserves hell!

Anyone who is devoted to her because they worship her son, Pleases her son, pleases God.

[Prophet01]

also I will say this, anyone who Worships the bible deserves Hell, but anyone who is devoted to the bible, because they worship Jesus Christ, pleases Christ, pleases God.

[Artificial Intelligence]

I will make this statment so you know my possiton on marian worship...


Anyone who worships St Mary deserves hell!

Anyone who is devoted to her because they worship her son, Pleases her son, pleases God.

Anyone who is devoted to her because they worship her son, Pleases her son, pleases God.But that's not what this text says, is it? This text says through her, by her and from her.

Also I agree with many posters here, no where in the bible is it said to be devoted to Mary.

[Lynn73]

Lynn I do not see these quotes in the fatima message, maybe I am wrong, maybe I have over looked them, but maybe the books your reading are misleading.

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/message/ (http://www.fatima.org/essentials/message/)

I didn't say these quotes were from Fatima. The quotes in the book aren't categorized by location. I was just showing quotes from some of the appartions as compared with Scripture. If I can find one labeled from Fatima, I'll share it.

[Lynn73]

Can't locate any in skimming as specifically labeled as a Fatima quote though the book does mention Fatima. A lot of quotes are from "our lady of Medjugorje. Some of the quotes are probably from Fatima they just aren't labeled as such. I forgot that this thread was specifically about Fatima and should've been sure the quotes were from Fatima and not the other apparitions messages. My apologies.


Here are some of the quotes from Fatima, some may be in my book but it shows that the messages contradict Scripture and that is the point of the whole thing whether the apparition appeared at Fatima or the Untites States.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/fatima.htm

[Artificial Intelligence]

Can't locate any in skimming as specifically labeled as a Fatima quote though the book does mention Fatima. A lot of quotes are from "our lady of Medjugorje. Some of the quotes are probably from Fatima they just aren't labeled as such.Google is our friend... *Cough* ...well not really but it's a pretty good tool for searching :)

http://www.alcazar.net/appendix_three.html

Here is one of the sites I got my Fatima quotes from: http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html

[Prophet01]

"through her, by her and from her."

Through her intercesion, by her intercesion and from her intercesion Her son will grant us salvation, people often forget that St Mary is part and parcel of the redemptive work of Christ, without her Christ would not have come into the world - She bore Christ to the world, Now she brings the world to Christ... she was mother of Christ, now she is mother of all humanity, As Christ is the New Adam, So Our Lady Becomes the New Eve.


Mary’s role as mother is one that begins at the Annunciation with her active consent to bare Christ in to the world. In Mary’s “let it be done unto me” we have the perfect intersection of activity and receptivity. In Mary’s fiat we see also the distinctly feminine element in all of creation which god calls into existence. For every creature male and female who is called into existence out of nothing must receive in order to be and every disciple male and female who is called to share in the redemptive activity of Christ, must first receive in order to act.



But Mary’s consent is more than a purely passive Receptivity; her consent is active and part participatory. She wills what god wills and in so doing she brings to the situation the one absolute power with wich god has invested his creation. As Gertrude von la fort has pointed out in the eternal woman (surrender to god is the only absolute power that the creature possesses) at the same time Mary brings to the situation that one special attribute which god has entrusted to the female side of his creation… the power of conception.



To quote la fort again (First comes creation, which is the glory of god, then comes conception which is the humility of woman and only then comes action which is the power of man)



It is important that we understand here precisely what la fort has in mind when she speaks of the humility, in the first instance it involves a fundamental imagination of god, the woman in her humility stands in the same relationship to the man as god in his relationship to all humanity, for god is creating just like the woman in conceiving, engages in an activity which remains largely hidden and anonymous (god is hidden, a silent and invisible god. In his creation he remains in a sense anonymous, this helps us to comprehend our previous assertion that the power that collaborates also co creates. Woman therefore as the hidden collaborator represents the anonymity of god, she represents it as the one side of all that is creative)



If we consider motherhood as restricted entirely to the conception of a child we can see how the activity of the woman in conceiving the child is so hidden that until recently in human history men were inclined to take almost all of the credit for that conception, men or so it was thought, especially by men, supplied the human beings women supplied only the place, the womb where those human beings could grow and mature until such time as they could survive outside it.



There are however to far larger and more important senses in which the woman as conceiver is engaged in work which is for the most part hidden and anonymous, the first of these has to do with the *biblical notion of motherhood, eve is characterised as brining a man into the world (gen 4:1) and Christ speaks of his own hour in Johns gospel in terms of the rejoicing a woman experiences for having brought a man into the world (jn 16:2) the implications are obvious, motherhood is not as we might say today, simply biological it is more than just conceiving and giving birth to a child, it has to do with raising that child up to adulthood and that responsibility has always been seen as lying much more with mothers than with fathers. Both eve and Mary are rightly viewed as baring men into the world. The job of raising up a child to adulthood is however largely a hidden anonymous and too often thankless responsibility.



As la fort notes, “between birth and death lies not only the achievements of the successful but the unending weariness of the way. The continuous monotony, all that belongs to the needs of the body and of life” and making the role of motherhood all the more inconspicuous is the fact that the more successful the woman is in raising the child the less likely her own contribution will be seen. If her children fail we may well enquire into their home life, if her children succeed however we shall in all likely hood congratulate the children.



We have I think a good example in scripture of how attention tends to focus more on the child than on the mother, in the gospel of Luke where we are told that “Christ grew in wisdom and knowledge” (Lk 2:52) much ink has been spilt over this passage first try to understand how a being who is truly divine could grow in wisdom and knowledge and second calling our attention to the fact that Christ was truly human as in he too had to learn like the rest of us.



But no child, Christ included simply grows in wisdom and knowledge as though in some pre-programmed and automated fashion. Children grow in wisdom and knowledge because someone is teaching them, guiding them, attending to them everyday of the week, every week of the year. How often do we read that passage and miss Mary’s presence in it?



Her role at his conception is prominent, her role at his birth is prominent, but her role in bringing a man into the world is hidden, inconspicuous.



There is however a even larger and more comprehensive sense in which motherhoods stands for the hidden, the anonyms the inconspicuous, if there is any event in scripture which under scores this it is surely the wedding at cana. Seen from the side of Christ we have in the gospel of John the initiation of Christ’s public ministry, by the first sign or miracle in which he changes water into wine.



This event not only has eucharistic overtones it also has implications with regard to Christ’s hour, an expression which in Johns gospel refers ultimately to Christ’s crucifixion which is simultaneously his exaltation, his instillation as king, his universal salvfic act and his return to the father which is also his return to that glory which was before the creation of the world.



The cosmic implications are quite literally staggering, seen from the side of Mary however the wedding at Cana takes on entirely different dimensions. What we have here is a domestic crisis, a potentially embarrassing situation in which the wine has simply ran out, the host of the wedding partly has discovered his own resources to be insignificant to meet the obligations he undertook. He is powerless to mend the insufficiency, not an unusual situation, we can surely all agree. But also not an event of cosmic proportions, who are these people we never even learn their names, who cares if they are momentarily discomforted? We have all been there and we know that the sun does not stop in the sky when these things happen; life’s embarrassing moments have no cosmic significance. Or do they?



At cana we have an extraordinary exchange between mother and son, the significance of which, I think we perhaps do not yet fully understand when marry tells Christ that the wedding party has run out of wine is answer takes the form of a question and that question has quite a harsh ring to it “oh woman what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come” (john 2:4) we might think that if ever there was a moment for Mary to claim her rights to stand on her dignity or to her assert her authority as his mother, this was surely it. Nothing like this happened, however instead Mary addresses herself to the stewards saying “do whatever he tells you” (John 2.5)



On one level what we have here is as many scripture scholars point out is an act of faith that goes beyond anything that any of his disciples could have mustered at the time. On this level Mary is the model of the true disciple but she is also his mother and we must look beyond this level of discipleship alone to appreciate the full implications of her response. It has been suggested and I think with good reason that Mary's response has a direct baring on Christ’s statement, that his “hour has not yet come”



In effect by addressing the steward as she does, Mary indicates that she as his mother is releasing him to his hour, certainly her actions here do participate the beginning of his hour and sent him on the path to Jerusalem.



Beyond that I would suggest that Mary’s response is also an answer to the question that Christ puts to her “oh woman what have you to do with me?” again let me advert to the eternal woman where le fort discusses the motherly woman and raises the question. “Does this motherly woman owe herself to the strong man or the weakling” le fort’s answer of course is to the weakling.



At Cana Christ is the strong man. Mary knows this. The weak man is the host, who faces the embarrassment of a wine shortage for which he is responsible and about which he can do nothing.



Mary approaches her son on the mans behalf, when Christ asks her what she has to do with him, she seems not to answer certainly she does not fall back on any of the answers we might expect of her, she does not identify herself with him as a mother might reasonably be expected to do under such circumstances, instead she turns away from him and to the stewards, she addresses them not him, in so doing she places herself on the side of their host, her answer to her son or so I would suggest is that she has to do with him precisely because she has to do with others.



If she is releasing him to his hour she is also simultaneously taking up her own place in his hour, the place of intercessor on behalf of the weak, the vulnerable, the helpless, in so doing she ceases to be mother to him, in order to become mother to others, a shift which he acknowledges by addressing her as “woman” and not as “mother”



It is not out of line I think to suppose before his hour begins she is still involved in the task of bringing a man into the world and therefore is not yet therefore in a position to bring the world to that man. If that is so once his hour begins Mary the mother who’s responsibility it once was to raise up a weak child into a strong man becomes Mary the “Woman” who as a truly motherly woman now has the responsibility to bring to him the weakness and vulnerabilities of others, she how was his mother becomes at the advent of his hour woman to him a mother to us. This shift in her motherly responsibilities is in this same gospel, reaffirmed and sealed at the cross where Christ in the culmination of his hour, looking at his mother and at his beloved disciple who stands for all disciples says to Mary “woman behold your son” and to the beloved disciple (us) behold your mother.



Mary is most prominent in the gospel at two points in the life of Christ, 1st at his conception and birth where she assumes the responsibility of baring a man into the world and second and the beginning and culmination of Christ’s hour where she assumes the responsibility of baring other men and women to Christ, in both instances she assumes the role of mother in relation to Christ and second in relation to others, in both instances she appears only to disappear into the anonymity of her calling, indeed the fact that she remains in the most part so inconspicuous in the gospels is the best evidence we have of her fidelity to her vocation.



For as mother she is entrusted to the task of attending to the little things, the vulnerable persons, the inconspicuous and by popular standards the unimportant events in life, in so doing she stands as a constant reminder that our popular standards are wrong, is the fact that they have ran out of wine at this party in cana really worth bothering about, Mary certainly thinks so, so much does she think so that she is prepared to make it an issue with her son Christ.



She is willing to ask what she as his mother really has no right to ask that he exercise those divine and messianic prerogatives which are his by virtue of his father not his mother, those powers once exercised must necessarily set him on the path to Jerusalem, to the cross, to the culmination of his hour. Having raised him to manhood she must relinquish her own role as his mother, that he might now do the will of his father, but her own role as mother does not end here, in a sense we can only say that it must truly begin here, for she whom Christ now addresses as woman is the one whom we are now invited to address as mother.

[lipoftruth]

Fatima has generated a lot of money for greedy conmen who manipulate poor people through superstition

[Artificial Intelligence]

Um first thing, which part of this commentary you posted is actually your work? Did you read it? (found on Google...)

[Prophet01]

I can safely say, that I not only have I read it but I have wrote it - have you read it?

[Artificial Intelligence]

I can safely say, that I not only have I read it but I have wrote it - have you read it?Yep, I read it and disagree with it. It’s not even based on scripture but takes the single word “woman” and turns it into something else. The point was, were in the bible does it say that we are to show devotion to Mary? The reason I asked was because you have been avoiding the main discussion which is concerning Fatima. Maybe if I got you searching the scriptures for answers I was hoping I could get through. But seeing this post on “The Motherhood of Mary” and how much was taken out of a single word and built upon it, well it’s just sad to see.

This thread is about Fatima and the text presented from that as it stands. My authority is the bible and I hold this text to that and that alone. I see the RC view of Mary and the view presented from Fatima as two different topics. I’m not taking on the whole Roman Catholic Church concerning Mary but simply trying to put Fatima up to the light of scripture. You seem to want to validate Fatima by other sources than the bible and that to me is concerning.

[Prophet01]

My authority is the bible and I hold this text to that and that alone.



Thats nice, but my authority is Jesus Christ and I hold to his teachings and his alone, but I also recognise that Jesus Christ is alive and not confined to words in a book, I recognise that eternal wisdom, eternal truth is bigger than the bible, I accept that the bible is the word of God, but I do not accept it as my sole authority, I live by the heart of the law, Jesus Christ, not by the letter of the Law that is dead parchment.

"were in the bible does it say that we are to show devotion to Mary?"

It is not a requirement, true!

The bible is not the authority on christ, the bible speaks to the heart of man, to understand why we should want to give her honour and devotion you must see with your heart the truth of Christ, not your own truth derived from misunderstanding the bible.

"You seem to want to validate Fatima by other sources than the bible and that to me is concerning."

I do not want to validate or invalidate fatima, I see no point in trying to do so, but there are points of interest that fatima brings up, one of which is devotion to The Blessed Virgin Mary - this in itself more important to our faith than if we believe fatima is real or not.

The bible is as legitimate today as it was 1900 years ago but Jesus Christ is not confined to the level of understanding we gain from the bible, the bible itself says it is not the fullness of truth, St Paul mentions a saying of Christ not in the Gospels "it is more blessed to give than to recieve" and St Pail didnt know Christ until Damascus. There are things which christ has done and said that are not recorded in the bible -so please, take a fools advice, live by the bible but dont let your faith be confined to the bible. i know that is a hard thing to accept, believe me I know...

you asked me where in the bible does it say we should be devoted to mary (it is there if you look with eyes of faith) but now i ask you a question, where in the bible does it say scripture is our sole rule of faith?

Sola Scriptura is a man made doctrine, please listen to me, the bible is not our rule of faith, the truth of Jesus Christ, who is not confined to the bible is.


"how much was taken out of a single word and built upon it"


we have yet to reach the wisdom of the word of God, the word of God is layered with wisdom that goes deeper and deeper, we are all at different levels of understanding, be we all remain the little child who simply knows Jesus is God.

" simply trying to put Fatima up to the light of scripture."

Thats ok, but I see nothing in scripture that disporves fatima and nothing in fatima that disproves scripture, either you want to talk about devotion to mary, which seems to be your main hang up between scripture and fatima or you just want to bang on and on about nothing at all, just ranting and raving about how it cant be true because of devotion to mary

[Key]

Shouldn't this be more a Catholic thing?

God Bless
Key.

[Prophet01]

"Shouldn't this be more a Catholic thing?"

so the truth of Jesus Christ is confined to the living walls of the catholic church...I think not, The truth of Christ extends to anyone and everyone who is willing to accept it, therefore fatima if it is from God, is for the whole world and certainly not just for the catholics.

[Prophet01]

“The Motherhood of Mary” (found on Google...)


awa shucks, did you read the username of the poster?

[Lynn73]

Google is our friend... *Cough* ...well not really but it's a pretty good tool for searching :)

http://www.alcazar.net/appendix_three.html

Here is one of the sites I got my Fatima quotes from: http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html


Interesting quotes from the second site:


Lucia then asked if they would go to heaven and she was told yes, she and Jacinta would go to heaven, but Francisco would need to say many rosaries first.

Where in the Bible does it say saying a bunch of rosaries will get anyone into heaven?


I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly; but you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make Me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it;souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne."

Anything biblical about this?


Lucia made some requests for sick people, to which Mary replied that she would cure some but not others, and that all must say the rosary to obtain such graces, before continuing: "Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say many times, especially when you make some sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary."

Um, I thought sins were against God. Mary's "immaculate" heart doesn't enter into it at all.


You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.

Huh?


I want to tell you that a chapel is to be built here in my honour. I am the Lady of the Rosary. Continue always to pray the Rosary every day. The war is going to end, and the soldiers will soon return to their homes.

A chapel built in her honor? Does this sound like the humble Mary of Scripture? I don't think so.

[Prophet01]

"A chapel built in her honor? Does this sound like the humble Mary of Scripture? I don't think so."


oh I dont know, when we humble ourselves before God, God raises us up before men.

The Words of the Blessed Virgin Mary to You

MY soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord (not at all big headed)

He has looked with favor on [ME] (again very humble)

From now on all generations will call ME blessed (pure humility)

the Mighty One has done great things for ME.

(like ask for consecration and our devotion to her imaculate heart and ask us to build a chapel in her honour - Great things done for her by Gods Request)

Yep lets not build a Chapel in her honour, lets not Call her blessed, lets not be devoted to her, after all why should we?

[Prophet01]

I mean just look at what she is saying there in scripture.

Imagine me coming on here and saying to all of you

MY SOUL, MY ACTUAL SOUL, ME MYSELF, EVERYTHING I THINK AND EVERYTHING I DO WHEN YOU LOOK AT ME YOU SEE THE GREATNESS OF GOD - wow that really is some statement, what would you do if you saw the Greatness of Almighty God in a person would you follow that person and be devoted to them, I know I would, by my devotion to them I would come to know God better because I could see the Greatness of God in human Flesh, We see the Greatness of God in the Human Flesh of Christ who is truely Human but also truely God, Not only should we be devoted to Christ, we should worship him also, but Just because we have Christ doesnt mean we should forget about mary by our devotion to her (not worship) we will SEE the greatness of God, its right there in scripture!

No wonder the catholics believe she was concieved without sin, (imaculate soul, heart) how else could her soul proclaim the greatness of the lord?

[Iollain]

Medjugorje
Status: Not officially church approved, but it is endorsed by dozens of Cardinals, Bishops, and

the Pope himself.


"I call upon you to open yourselves completely to me so that through each of you I may be enabled

to convert and save the world..."

Yes God, we are completely yours, work in us by Your Spirit. Oh, your not God, someone else is

doing this now?









Akita
Fully approved by the Catholic church

"I alone am able to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence

in me will be saved."

Amen, God will do this, it's in His word. OH, someone else is doing this now?






Medjugorje
Not officially church approved, but it is endorsed by dozens of Cardinals, Bishops, and the Pope

himself.http://www.medjugorje.org/pope.htm


"Dear children, today I invite you to ask yourself why I am with you this long. I am the

Mediatrix between you and God."

That is funny cause last time i checked the written word, we are indwelled by the Spirit, this is

how the Father and Son are with us. Your the Holy Spirit now?





http://www.marypages.com/LaSaletteEng.htm

"I gave you six days for working. The seventh I have reserved for myself. But no one will

give it to me. This is what causes the weight of my my Son's arm to be so crushing."


'I' gave you six days for working? You gave??? Is this the kind of thing people read when they

experience Holy Laughter?

[Eazy E]

This post is a little late, but I'll drop my useless 2 cents in here. I don't support nor believe all the Mary sightings, and also, all of the statues that suddenly start "bleeding." I think they are deceptions of the expert deciever himself, Satan.

[lismore]

I truly don't think we understand just how subtle and deceptive Satan really is. He doesn't want us to know either. Do you not think he can't perform signs and miracles if it serves his deceptive purposes? I'm telling you that according to the Bible he can. He can appear as an angel of light. These appartions of so called miracles don't serve to bring people to Christ. They serve to keep people in bondage to a false religious sytem. They deceive people into believing lies. The messages coming from this "Mary" that keeps appearing contradict the Bible and that should be enough right there to tell you that it isn't the Mary of the Bible but a deceiving spirit.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because something supernatural and seemingly a miracle takes place that is has to be from God. That's what Satan wants you to think. What would you do if you were Satan and wanted to keep people from the true gospel and in bondage to a false religious system? What would help keep the people there? Cause supernatural events or miracles to occur because that will appear to validate their false beliefs. Therefore people are fooled into believing they have the truth. These manifestatios aren't Christian, they're manifestations put forth by deceiving spirits. I believe that even true believers can be deceived by these things. Compare all messages to the word of God, all experiences to the word of God. It is the final authority.


.
This is excellent advice:thumbsup:

[Prophet01]

"Medjugorje
Status: Not officially church approved, but it is endorsed by dozens of Cardinals, Bishops, and

the Pope himself. "


Strange I read on a Catholic site that said Medjugorje although not discounted by rome there has been a notification to all parishes, not to promote or have pilgrimages to this site, but each individual Member of the Catholic faithful may use their own judgement regarding personal pilgrimages.



"Amen, God will do this, it's in His word. OH, someone else is doing this now?"



Through the power of God, "He has done Great things for me"



"Amen, God will do this, it's in His word. OH, someone else is doing this now?"


Through the power of God, "He has done Great things for me"

"That is funny cause last time i checked the written word, we are indwelled by the Spirit, this is

how the Father and Son are with us. Your the Holy Spirit now?"


Mediator between us and Jesus Christ, God, - Father,Son AHD HOLY SPIRIT
"MY SOUL PROCLIAMS THE GREATNESS OF THE LORD -All Generations Shall Call me Blessed"

[Iollain]

Strange I read on a Catholic site that said Medjugorje although not discounted by rome there has been a notification to all parishes, not to promote or have pilgrimages to this site, but each individual Member of the Catholic faithful may use their own judgement regarding personal pilgrimages.

yes that is strange indeed, 'yeah we are all gonna support Medjugorje, but don't mind us, you just make up your own mind' ;) That is quite the message sent out there

[Iollain]

Through the power of God, "He has done Great things for me"

Yes, He had done great things for Mary, but i don't think He goes against His written word and puts her in the place of the Holy Spirit.

[Lynn73]

This post is a little late, but I'll drop my useless 2 cents in here. I don't support nor believe all the Mary sightings, and also, all of the statues that suddenly start "bleeding." I think they are deceptions of the expert deciever himself, Satan.

Yes,they are. :thumbsup:


oh I dont know, when we humble ourselves before God, God raises us up before men.

The Words of the Blessed Virgin Mary to You

MY soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord (not at all big headed)

He has looked with favor on [ME] (again very humble)

From now on all generations will call ME blessed (pure humility)

the Mighty One has done great things for ME.

(like ask for consecration and our devotion to her imaculate heart and ask us to build a chapel in her honour - Great things done for her by Gods Request)

Sorry, I don't translate those Scriptures to mean Mary is wanting herself exalted on a par with Christ which is what Catholics appear to be doing with her. Believe it or not, she is proclaiming the greatness of the Lord in those verses, not herself. The real Mary would not be making commands to build chapels in her honor. That's mho.

[Prophet01]

"'yeah we are all gonna support Medjugorje, but don't mind us, you just make up your own mind' That is quite the message sent out there"

Medjugorje is not supported by The Roman Catholic Church, it simply isnt out right condemed by i, but its interesting that the church has told parishes not to support it and not to organise pilgrimages - I think that in itself speaks volumes.


"Yes, He had done great things for Mary, but i don't think He goes against His written word and puts her in the place of the Holy Spirit."


Neither do I, your either misunderstanding it all or your twisting what it means to suit your poilitical agenda, but since I dont think your politically inclined, I think your misunderstanding it.

God has and will continue to do great things for Our Lady, she is after all his spouse and he is faithful... Now He certainly isnt puting mary above himself (the holy spirit), infact since her soul proclaims the greatness of the lord, it is through her that we can come to have a deeper understanding of God -Father, Son and Holy Spirit , if you read my post and stop being so arrogant you may see that I never said he puts her in place of himself or even on a parallel with himself... and the words themselves dont mean that....she is the handmaid of the lord, a mere servant, dont dismiss it out of hand because you fail to grasp what is being said, instead pray and try to understand it.

[Prophet01]

"Sorry, I don't translate those Scriptures to mean Mary is wanting herself exalted on a par with Christ which is what Catholics appear to be doing with her. Believe it or not, she is proclaiming the greatness of the Lord in those verses, not herself. The real Mary would not be making commands to build chapels in her honor. That's mho."

I AM NOT BEING NASTY, I AM CORRECTING IN A LOVING WAY

Your a blind fool, you are blind because you cant see the reality of the scriptures and your a fool because YOU DONT WANT TO SEE IT.

You know as well as I do and the catholic church that those scriptures are NOT mary exhalting herself on a par with Christ, stop being so pig headed and bloody minded. Stop worming about like a snake and for once in you life open your heart not your mind!

she is proclaiming the greatness of the Lord in those verses, not herself.

But that is only a small part of it, geees - It is mostly about god exhalting her

Those scriptures are not about Mary exhalting herself but God Exhalting Mary before men, not as an equal to Christ but as the highest created being, suprerior TO US, NOT SUPERIOR TO GOD.

It is Gods will that Her SOUL is a outward sign of the Greatness of God, it is Gods Will that all Generations Call Her Blessed, truely he has done great things for her!!!

</FONT>
When Mary Asks for a Chapel to be built in her honour it is the will of God for her to be exhalted, the Chapel is for WORSHIP OF GOD but there is place for devotion (not worship of ) to saints too that is why there are Churches named after saints ST Peters, St Josephs, St Marys churches, churches devoted to a particualr saint, not for their worship.

Now please for pete's sake will you stop with the over dramatic accusations and instead of condeming me, others and ST Mary for something we are not doing, listen and try to understand what it is that we are doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Iollain]

"'yeah we are all gonna support Medjugorje, but don't mind us, you just make up your own mind' That is quite the message sent out there"

Medjugorje is not supported by The Roman Catholic Church, it simply isnt out right condemed by i, but its interesting that the church has told parishes not to support it and not to organise pilgrimages - I think that in itself speaks volumes.



Neither do I, your either misunderstanding it all or your twisting what it means to suit your poilitical agenda, but since I dont think your politically inclined, I think your misunderstanding it.

God has and will continue to do great things for Our Lady, she is after all his spouse and he is faithful... Now He certainly isnt puting mary above himself (the holy spirit), infact since her soul proclaims the greatness of the lord, it is through her that we can come to have a deeper understanding of God -Father, Son and Holy Spirit , if you read my post and stop being so arrogant you may see that I never said he puts her in place of himself or even on a parallel with himself... and the words themselves dont mean that....she is the handmaid of the lord, a mere servant, dont dismiss it out of hand because you fail to grasp what is being said, instead pray and try to understand it.

I was born again at night but it wasn't last night, you'll have to find someone who is a babe in Christ to tell this to. Can't pull the sheep wool over my eyes:)

[Iollain]

I AM NOT BEING NASTY, I AM CORRECTING IN A LOVING WAY

Your a blind fool, you are blind because you cant see the reality of the scriptures and your a fool because YOU DONT WANT TO SEE IT.

You know as well as I do and the catholic church that those scriptures are NOT mary exhalting herself on a par with Christ, stop being so pig headed and bloody minded. Stop worming about like a snake and for once in you life open your heart not your mind!



But that is only a small part of it, geees - It is mostly about god exhalting her

Those scriptures are not about Mary exhalting herself but God Exhalting Mary before men, not as an equal to Christ but as the highest created being, suprerior TO US, NOT SUPERIOR TO GOD.

It is Gods will that Her SOUL is a outward sign of the Greatness of God, it is Gods Will that all Generations Call Her Blessed, truely he has done great things for her!!!

</FONT>
When Mary Asks for a Chapel to be built in her honour it is the will of God for her to be exhalted, the Chapel is for WORSHIP OF GOD but there is place for devotion (not worship of ) to saints too that is why there are Churches named after saints ST Peters, St Josephs, St Marys churches, churches devoted to a particualr saint, not for their worship.

Now please for pete's sake will you stop with the over dramatic accusations and instead of condeming me, others and ST Mary for something we are not doing, listen and try to understand what it is that we are doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Lynn73 was not born again last night either.

[Iollain]

You know as well as I do and the catholic church that those scriptures are NOT mary exhalting herself on a par with Christ, stop being so pig headed and bloody minded. Stop worming about like a snake and for once in you life open your heart not your mind

Open your heart to Mary, she is going to give us all the graces for salvation....yeah sure. :doh:

[Lynn73]

God has and will continue to do great things for Our Lady, she is after all his spouse and he is faithful... Now He certainly isnt puting mary above himself (the holy spirit), infact since her soul proclaims the greatness of the lord, it is through her that we can come to have a deeper understanding of God -Father, Son and Holy Spirit , if you read my post and stop being so arrogant you may see that I never said he puts her in place of himself or even on a parallel with himself... and the words themselves dont mean that....she is the handmaid of the lord, a mere servant, dont dismiss it out of hand because you fail to grasp what is being said, instead pray and try to understand it.

Mary isn't God's wife. Nor do we need her to have a deeper understanding of God. I don't know where you get this stuff. Mary isn't a mediator between us and God, you need to read the Bible. There is no arrogance involved here, what there is is discernment between truth and error with the Scriptures as the authoritative guideline. You need to calm down and listen to the Scriptures, not Catholic propoganda about Mary. These "Mary" apparitions are not the Mary of the Bible. The deceiving spirit gives itself away because the messages contradict the Scriptures, end of story. Mary was a humble young virgin whom God chose to bring Christ in to the world. I respect her and she is blessed. But that's all. I refuse to make of her more than the Bible makes of her. I won't dishonor her in that way. Now, if you don't like that, too bad.

[kcrod500]

Jesus refer to Mary as "Woman"
The Bible never tells us to pray to Mary or to any saints.NEVER.

Mary belivers read what Mary said in John 2:5 " His mother said to the servents "Do whatever he tells you " "

[Eazy E]

I'm sorry, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only two people in the Bible I know of that are of intimant importance to the Lord. Now, we are all his children, and all who follow the Lord and are Chrisitans are part of the flock of sheep. However, I only remember seeing one person to which the Lord called him, "a man after my own heart", and that was David. As for all the people following Jesus around, in the Bible we Non-Denoms and non-RCC read, which was dissected and worked on by the early church, Jesus said the one disciple he had loved the most was John. I'm sorry, but for Mary, he loved her and respected her, simply because she was his earthly Mom. God did not marry a woman, otherwise, that would not make him perfect.

[Prophet01]

"I was born again at night but it wasn't last night, you'll have to find someone who is a babe in Christ to tell this to. Can't pull the sheep wool over my eyes"

I am trying to help you not decieve you, you poor unfortunate.

"Mary isn't God's wife."

Spouse not in the same sense as an earthly marriage.

When man and woman are united, Flesh become one flesh

When God and Woman were united, God Became Flesh

I am not saying that Mary became the wife of the holy spirit in the sense that they went to church and Got Married, I am saying that Mary became the spouse of the holy spirit when both Mary and God willingly parented the Son of God, jesus Christ Most High.... the problem you people have is that you are nothing more than babes in Christ but your so arrogant you cant grow spiritually.


"Nor do we need her to have a deeper understanding of God. I don't know where you get this stuff."


Oh yes we do, your trapped in a finite mind, you need to understand that the actions of Mary are infinite, without the eternal work of Mary we would not have the eternal work of Christ, so on a very deep and at the same time very basic level we do NEED Mary to bring us to a deeper understanding Of God as You will find God also NEEDS Marys eternal work to bring himself to man.

Mary isn't a mediator between us and God, you need to read the Bible

Her Work of bringing man to God and God to man is an eternal work, she is the mediator between Jesus Christ and Mankind and it is Christ who through his salvation reconciles us to the Father, So Mary brings us to God, Jesus Christ and Christ who is God forgives us, uniting us with the Father, therefore only Christ is the mediator between us and the Father.

scripturaly you may know every word of the bible, spiritually you know absolutly nothing at all


"You need to calm down and listen to the Scriptures, not Catholic propoganda about Mary"

You need a spiritual awakening, your spirit is dead, dead dead dead... you have never been reborn of the spirit, your spirit is not eternally alive it is dead, I can see that clearly. unless your born of the spirit you can not see the kingdom of God and you simply can not see it.


"These "Mary" apparitions are not the Mary of the Bible."

I am not saying all of them are, but you dont know mary of the Bible, you dont know her, you dont know Christ and you dont know the spirit, you are in darkness, your dead, as I have already shown the true mary of the bible, but you will not listen.


"The deceiving spirit gives itself away because the messages contradict the Scriptures, end of story."

No they dont, they support scripture!



"Mary was a humble young virgin whom God chose to bring Christ in to the world. I respect her and she is blessed."

woe careful there, respecting mary, calling her blessed - your worshiping her arnt you!

Humble before God, and who god raised up in sight of men, why cant you accept this, this is what god does throughout the bible for those who are faithfull to him, Christs ressurection is the fullness of this truth.


"I refuse to make of her more than the Bible makes of her."

neither do I, but you wont even "make of her" that much, you show her little to no respect as mother of our saviour and as our mother, infact I think you reject her as your mother, reject her as the new eve.

[Artificial Intelligence]

what there is is discernment between truth and error with the Scriptures as the authoritative guideline. You need to calm down and listen to the Scriptures, not Catholic propoganda about Mary. Well yeah, those in the RCC that are deceived by this of course as well as those outside the RCC. I don't think that it's the RCC or anyone else that is set out to deceive here, it's the true creator of these Fatima texts (and other texts) that have led many astray. This is why I think it's more critical about what the text is about and not just those that are deceived by it to be blamed here. If we start name calling those that are deceived by this, I don’t think it helps much. For some of them I expect such a thing since it's pretty tuff to get over that one is deceived in this way and their tempers can flare when disproving their belief system in this. Yes, in no way is this Mary a mediator between God and man, but clearly the texts are trying to pawn itself off in this way. Since these texts were created, it seems that error has been piled upon error so that someone that reads the text probably gets a different message from it since they have been confused by the piles of commentary on it which bends its clear message. It's becomes much like brain washing.

[Lynn73]

I am trying to help you not decieve you, you poor unfortunate.

We're trying to do the same for you.


I am not saying that Mary became the wife of the holy spirit in the sense that they went to church and Got Married, I am saying that Mary became the spouse of the holy spirit when both Mary and God willingly parented the Son of God, jesus Christ Most High.... the problem you people have is that you are nothing more than babes in Christ but your so arrogant you cant grow spiritually.

There's no biblical evidence for Mary being the spouse of the Holy Spirit. And, friend, I'm not a babe in Christ. I've been a Christian for 30 years and I think God has revealed a few things to me.


Oh yes we do, your trapped in a finite mind, you need to understand that the actions of Mary are infinite, without the eternal work of Mary we would not have the eternal work of Christ, so on a very deep and at the same time very basic level we do NEED Mary to bring us to a deeper understanding Of God as You will find God also NEEDS Marys eternal work to bring himself to man.

Sorry, but no biblical evidence. Mary isn't eternal. She had a beginning, Christ didn't. We would have Christ if Mary never existed because He would've come through someone else. It's the Holy Spirit and study of Scripture plus our personal relationship with Christ that brings us to deeper understanding of God. You're sadly mistaken, sir. God does NOT need Mary to bring Himself and man together. Christ is the one who accomplished that. There is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim. 2:5. What you say isn't biblical.



Her Work of bringing man to God and God to man is an eternal work, she is the mediator between Jesus Christ and Mankind and it is Christ who through his salvation reconciles us to the Father, So Mary brings us to God, Jesus Christ and Christ who is God forgives us, uniting us with the Father, therefore only Christ is the mediator between us and the Father.

You do err not knowing the Scriptures. Matt. 22:29. Mary doesn't bring God to man or man to God and there's nothing in the Bible that says she's a mediator between us and Christ. She didn't bring me to Christ. The Holy Spirit drew me to Christ. In my opinion, you've been deceived.



You need a spiritual awakening, your spirit is dead, dead dead dead... you have never been reborn of the spirit, your spirit is not eternally alive it is dead, I can see that clearly. unless your born of the spirit you can not see the kingdom of God and you simply can not see it.

It's against the rules to question another member's salvation. I perceive there's something very wrong in YOUR spirit or you wouldn't be speaking such nonsense. I've been born of the Spirit for the past 30 years and I can see just fine, thanks. Let's be careful about the personal attacks here. We're supposed to be giving opinions on the Mary apparitions of Fatima, not making personal attacks. Disagreements are inevitable so there's not point in you telling me my spirit is dead just because I see things differently.

[Prophet01]

"There's no biblical evidence for Mary being the spouse of the Holy Spirit. And, friend, I'm not a babe in Christ. I've been a Christian for 30 years and I think God has revealed a few things to me."

first off there is biblical evidence, its just you dont have the eyes of faith to see it!

"Sorry, but no biblical evidence."


what I said is based off Scripture.

Mary isn't eternal. She had a beginning, Christ didn't.

that is not what I am stressing, I am saying the work of Mary was eternal, just as Christ salvic act was eternal... lol you really really do not see do you!


We would have Christ if Mary never existed because He would've come through someone else.

It was planned from the very foundation of the world, Mary existed because God willed her existance, just as he wills our existance, there couldnt have been "someone else" because that was not the will of God.

and even if there was, that person would simply be what St Mary is to us today, you realy have not come to grips with eternity and time yet have you?


It's the Holy Spirit and study of Scripture plus our personal relationship with Christ that brings us to deeper understanding of God.

Yes I agree, that doesnt exclude our lady bringing us to Christ though

God does NOT need Mary to bring Himself and man together. Christ is the one who accomplished that.

Christ IS God and Mary Brings us to Christ and Christ brings us to the father*knock on skull*


"She didn't bring me to Christ. The Holy Spirit drew me to Christ."

How could you have the holy spirit before you knew Christ, since it is Christ that baptises with the holy spirit?

I know you have been decieved!

"It's against the rules to question another member's salvation."

I leave your salvation upto God - for him all things are possible!


"I've been born of the Spirit for the past 30 years "

of course you have, OF COURSE YOU HAVE

"I can see just fine"

since you say you see, your sin remains!

"there's not point in you telling me my spirit is dead just because I see things differently"

differently... LOL - not at all!

[Lynn73]

first off there is biblical evidence, its just you dont have the eyes of faith to see it!

Or you read something into it that isn't there.


what I said is based off Scripture.

Your opinoin.


that is not what I am stressing, I am saying the work of Mary was eternal, just as Christ salvic act was eternal... lol you really really do not see do you!

I see fine, but thanks for your concern.


and even if there was, that person would simply be what St Mary is to us today, you realy have not come to grips with eternity and time yet have you?

^_^


Yes I agree, that doesnt exclude our lady bringing us to Christ though

She isn't needed to bring us to Christ. We can come directly to Him ourselves,show me biblical evidence otherwise.


Christ IS God and Mary Brings us to Christ and Christ brings us to the father*knock on skull*

Biblical cite? I've read the whole Bible and I've never seen anything say that Mary brings us to Christ, sorry.



How could you have the holy spirit before you knew Christ, since it is Christ that baptises with the holy spirit?

I know you have been decieved!

Who said I had the Holy Spirit before I knew Christ? I said He drew me to Christ just as He works to draw all unbelievers. He now indwells me since I do now know Christ and have been baptized by the Spirt into His body the church.

Your opinion.



I leave your salvation upto God - for him all things are possible!

He's taken care of that through the shed blood of Christ and my trust in Him.



since you say you see, your sin remains!

Your opinion.


I'd appreciate it if you'd try to stop being so arrogant. I think we can disagree without that.

[SpiritPsalmist]

for review