What is a Lutheran?

[Browneyes84]

It's kinda funny with me lately, I've been doing a lot of Bible study, theology study and reading to find that I am at a crossroads. Basically, my beliefs mainly side with Catholicism or with Lutheranism. So I'd like to know, what are the real differences between catholicism and Lutherans?

Here's what I have a hard time with in Catholicism as far as believing in:

-Praying to Mary
-Praying to Saints
-Mary was a virgin all her life
-Jesus had no other brothers and sisters
-Bread and wine are ACTUALLY flesh and blood
-Purgatory
-Priests cannot be married
-Nuns and monks need to take vows to have celibate lives
-The hierarchial order of the Church (pope, dioceses, etc)
-Mary was born without original sin
-The Immaculate Conception
-Forgiveness of sins by a priest

So people, talk to me!

[SPALATIN]

It's kinda funny with me lately, I've been doing a lot of Bible study, theology study and reading to find that I am at a crossroads. Basically, my beliefs mainly side with Catholicism or with Lutheranism. So I'd like to know, what are the real differences between catholicism and Lutherans?

Here's what I have a hard time with in Catholicism as far as believing in:

-Praying to Mary
-Praying to Saints
-Mary was a virgin all her life
-Jesus had no other brothers and sisters
-Bread and wine are ACTUALLY flesh and blood
-Purgatory
-Priests cannot be married
-Nuns and monks need to take vows to have celibate lives
-The hierarchial order of the Church (pope, dioceses, etc)
-Mary was born without original sin
-The Immaculate Conception
-Forgiveness of sins by a priest

So people, talk to me!

Browneyes,

Welcome to the Theologia Crucis-Confessional Lutherans forum.

All of the things on the list you have made are primarily related to Roman Catholicism and what they put importance on in the faith. Lutherans by and large don't practice Mariolatry. We don't call on the Saints to intercede for us, but we do pray with the saints in our liturgy as is part of the service in Holy Communion. Luther himself held to Semper Virgo and many of the Conservatives in our church still preach and teach it as true.

As for whether Jesus had full siblings that he considered a brother (like James) I don't believe he did. I believe he was the only child of Mary. Joseph may have had children prior to becoming betrothed to Mary. Many believe that he was much older than Mary and that she was to be a second wife as the first one had died (this is speculation though), or the better explanation was that they were cousins and in that time one would call his cousin a brother or sister.

As to the elements of the sacrament--We believe in the real presence of Christ in, with and under the bread and wine. We consider it a mystery as to how Christ is present but we believe he is.

Purgatory-- This issue alone is what drove Martin Luther to draw up the 95 theses and nail them to the Castle church door in Wittenberg, Germany on Oct. 31, 1517. The Pope had declared that a special indulgence be sold to raise funds for the Basilica of St. Peter that the Pope was wanting to refurbish. Martin Luther surmised that we are saved by Grace through Faith. It is not our works but Christ's on the cross that saves us.

Luther argued against this as well. The scriptures don't call for Priests to be celibate and even Paul said that if desire burns in ones heart that a person ought to marry so that they don't commit fornication. This is one reason why after his excommunication that he married. He had been released from his vows during his tribulation. As for Nuns and Monks I think this also is answered in this paragraph.

Some Lutheran synods have a heirarchy and some don't. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod does not. The Synod acts in an advisory capacity and provides seminary training to men going into the ministry. The ELCA does have a heirarchy with Bishops that have sees.

As to Mary being born without sin. I don't believe it. I don't think that God chose her for that reason alone. Romans says that "all have sinned and fall short of God's glory." That to me says that Mary was born into sin, however she may have been able to live a life that was as pure of heart as a human can have. Maybe that is why God chose her to be the Mother of his Son.

Immaculate conception means that the Holy Spirit did come to Mary and she conceived. When a Priest forgives someone their sin they will tell you that it is not them forgiving the sin, but God is forgiving them through the priest. We believe the same in the Lutheran Church with the Pastor. Some of the more conservative synods offer individual confession and absolution. The Missouri Synod has some Pastors that will offer individual and some that don't feel comfortable with it. Most often Confession and Absolution are in the liturgy so they will give absolution upon a general confession by the congregation. Again it is not them giving it but it is God granting absolution to those who have confessed.

I will let anyone else that wishes to fill in the gaps or correct any mistakes I may have made. I hope that helps you.

[KEPLER]

It's kinda funny with me lately, I've been doing a lot of Bible study, theology study and reading to find that I am at a crossroads. Basically, my beliefs mainly side with Catholicism or with Lutheranism. So I'd like to know, what are the real differences between catholicism and Lutherans?

Here's what I have a hard time with in Catholicism as far as believing in:
Speaking for m'self...all my answers are orthodox Lutheran answers. However, the ones marked *** are issues which are non-binding on an individual's conscience. Luther believed in the perpetual Virginity of Mary. I myself am leaning that way. It has no effect on any other doctrines, and is not a clear violation of Scripture, so it's not a problem.

Praying to Mary
NO
Praying to Saints
NO
***Mary was a virgin all her life
YES/PERHAPS, does it matter?-
***Jesus had no other brothers and sisters
PERHAPS/NOT, does it matter?-
Bread and wine are ACTUALLY flesh and blood
ABSOLUTELY (SORT OF) If you mean "actually" as in instead of, ("It's not really bread and wine, it's actually the body and blood")then no. If you mean "actually" as in, the body and blood are actually there in the Lord's Supper (in, with and under the bread and wine), then ABSOLUTELY YES, that is what Lutherans believe. Jesus' real body and blood is there with the bread and wine.
Purgatory
NO-
Priests cannot be married
NO (IOW, yes, clergy may marry!)-
Nuns and monks need to take vows to have celibate lives
There are Lutheran nuns in some places, don't know about celibacy-
The hierarchial order of the Church (pope, dioceses, etc)
NO POPE, some Lutherans are hierarchical, some not. LCMS isn't, ELCA is.
Mary was born without original sin
Wrong
The Immaculate Conception
Same thing as above. The immaculate conception is the same thig as Mary born without original sin. That's what the dogma means.
Forgiveness of sins by a priest
The Pastor announces the forgiveness: "As a called and ordained Minster of the Word and by the command of Christ, I forgive you all your sins" or something close to that. But we have forgivness even when we pray alone. Having the Pastor announce it soothes the human conscience.

[KEPLER]

As to Mary being born without sin. I don't believe it. I don't think that God chose her for that reason alone. Romans says that "all have sinned and fall short of God's glory." That to me says that Mary was born into sin, however she may have been able to live a life that was as pure of heart as a human can have. Maybe that is why God chose her to be the Mother of his Son.

Immaculate conception means that the Holy Spirit did come to Mary and she conceived.

Scott,

The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary is the same thing as Mary being born without sin. See here. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm)

Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the Virgin Birth of Christ.

Obviously, Lutherans don't believe, but I recently found myself surprised at how logical the biblical basis for it is....but I still don't buy it! ;)

[KEPLER]

Browneyes84,

Two more things---

1) Baptism
Lutherans and RCs believe almost the same thing on this doctrine, with the exception that Lutherans put all the emphasis on the Holy SPirit working through the Baptism. We deny, in other words, that baptism works all by itslef, or ex opere operato, to use the technical term.

2) Justification by Grace Alone through Faith Alone

This is the mule kicker of a difference between the two Churches. Lutherans believe God saves the unrighteous sinner becasue they cannot help themselves.

RCs believe that you've got to help yourself at least a little bit before God saves you.

And therein lies a HUGE gulf of difference.

Kepler

[LutherNut]

I think the perfect church would have the true catholic (small 'c') doctrine of the evangelical, confessional Lutheran Church and the high regard for the liturgy and traditions of the Roman Catholic (capital 'C') or Eastern Orthodox Church.:thumbsup:

Although the Lutheran Church started that way, most have gone the route of the evangelical protestants with low church practices, no liturgies, and contemporary style music. :cry:



Jay:sigh:

[Jim47]

I think the perfect church would have the true catholic (small 'c') doctrine of the evangelical, confessional Lutheran Church and the high regard for the liturgy and traditions of the Roman Catholic (capital 'C') or Eastern Orthodox Church.:thumbsup:

Although the Lutheran Church started that way, most have gone the route of the evangelical protestants with low church practices, no liturgies, and contemporary style music. :cry:



Jay:sigh:


Have you ever visited a WELS Church? What you described is pretty much what we have.

[LutherNut]

Have you ever visited a WELS Church? What you described is pretty much what we have.


No, but you have piqued my curiosity. Unfortunately, there are none close by. The WELS website does indocate that there is one in Springville, NY, Our Savior, but people there that I have asked have never heard of it.


Jay:)

[Tetzel]

A Lutheran is a Catholic who holds scripture to be the only norm for judging practice and doctrine rather than claiming tradition to be equal to scripture

[SPALATIN]

Scott,

The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary is the same thing as Mary being born without sin. See here. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm)

Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the Virgin Birth of Christ.

Obviously, Lutherans don't believe, but I recently found myself surprised at how logical the biblical basis for it is....but I still don't buy it! ;)

Oh, Please forgive me for my wrong assumption.

I don't hold to Immaculate Conception then especially from the weblink you gave. The credulity is not apparent even in the scriptures as the weblink states that it can not be defended critically. I have to believe that it was human reason and not God that enabled them to develop this doctrine.

[Browneyes84]

Browneyes84,

Two more things---

1) Baptism
Lutherans and RCs believe almost the same thing on this doctrine, with the exception that Lutherans put all the emphasis on the Holy SPirit working through the Baptism. We deny, in other words, that baptism works all by itslef, or ex opere operato, to use the technical term.

2) Justification by Grace Alone through Faith Alone

This is the mule kicker of a difference between the two Churches. Lutherans believe God saves the unrighteous sinner becasue they cannot help themselves.

RCs believe that you've got to help yourself at least a little bit before God saves you.

And therein lies a HUGE gulf of difference.

Kepler

So what do you mean by "helping ourselves"? as far as being saved?

[Melethiel]

So what do you mean by "helping ourselves"? as far as being saved?
You can't "ask Jesus into your heart".

[LutherNut]

Oh, Please forgive me for my wrong assumption.

The Assumption is another dogma altogether... ;)



Jay^_^

[Jim47]

So what do you mean by "helping ourselves"? as far as being saved?

Per scripture we are born sinners, and because of this we are also born enemies of God. Until The Holy Spirit calls us, we can not on our own believe in God, or love, or even call on His name. I know this is not what most churches believe, but if you study all of scripture, it is plainly seen as the truth. I know I won't be able to find all the scriptures that pertain to this, but I will try to give you a good sampling.


Ro 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Ro 5:7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

Ro 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Ro 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Ro 5:10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Ro 5:11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.


Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.

Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.


1Co 1 :9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel.

Eph:1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,


2Th 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

1Pe 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11 To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen. :thumbsup:

[KEPLER]

The Assumption is another dogma altogether... ;)



Jay^_^

Oh, Jay... :doh:

[Browneyes84]

So did Luther mainly break away from the church because of the doctrinal differences that arent explicitly stated in the Bible, or because of indulgences?

[filosofer]

So did Luther mainly break away from the church because of the doctrinal differences that arent explicitly stated in the Bible, or because of indulgences?

Neither. He did not break away. The basis of his stand was that the (papal) church in Rome had moved away from the teachings of Scripture, specifically away from justification by grace (alone) through faith (alone) in Christ (alone), based on Scripture (alone). Luther never left "the Church" - rather the (papal) church left Scripture.

In Christ's love,
filo

[Nebmaatisus]

It really seems that the Lutheran Church is the right one for you. At least here in Finland Lutherans are slowly returning to richer liturgics, too. A very good Church, I would be Lutheran if I weren´t Orthodox.

I used to be Lutheran, and I still love the Lutheran Church. I also have many Lutheran pastors etc. as friends and follow the news about your Church with interest (and worry).

[BigNorsk]

So did Luther mainly break away from the church because of the doctrinal differences that arent explicitly stated in the Bible, or because of indulgences?

He was excommunicated because he didn't believe in the anti-biblical teachings of the Roman church such as the system of indulgences. He didn't break away the Roman church thrust him away as a result of their refusal to follow the Bible.

Marv

[KEPLER]

It really seems that the Lutheran Church is the right one for you. At least here in Finland Lutherans are slowly returning to richer liturgics, too. A very good Church, I would be Lutheran if I weren´t Orthodox.

I used to be Lutheran, and I still love the Lutheran Church. I also have many Lutheran pastors etc. as friends and follow the news about your Church with interest (and worry).
Side question: So, is there a "Finnish Orthdox Church" or are you under another Patriarchate(don't know if that's the rightword...?)?

[Knowledge3]

So I'd like to know, what are the real differences between catholicism and Lutherans?

I believe Lutherans hold doctrine that is centered in Christ.


-Praying to Mary

The Virgin Mary is defined as the Theotokos, since she produced Jesus, she must also be incarnate and living.


-Praying to Saints

Saints are pathways and examples to learn and follow.


-Mary was a virgin all her life

No way to know, since she produced our Savior, she must also be a Virgin as a result of being co-redemptrix. (She was redeemed with Jesus)


-Jesus had no other brothers and sisters

Jesus had brothers and Mary is His mother. His brothers and sisters are the family of God. But since He is God, is also Father in nature as God and human as Jesus.


-Bread and wine are ACTUALLY flesh and blood

There is a mystery in the Lord's Supper.

[filosofer]

ALL THO THEY ARE MY BROS AND SISTERS A NAME IS A NAME ID STAY OUT OF BOTH CHURCHS 1ST IS LUTHER WOULD BE VERY UPSET IF HE COULD SEE THE LUTHERN CHURCH AND MAD THATS ITS NAMED AFTER HIM HE WAS ALL ABOUT JESUS LOVE BIBLE NOT ANY MORE OR LESS O AND WOMAN TEACHIN IN CHURCHES OUCH HED BE MAD LOL

Guess, I am concerned that this is the second post within a 10 minute period in which you wish to judge/attack Lutherans. Yet you have little or no knowledge of Lutherans and Lutheran theology.

Perhaps if you would come back and try to engage in dialog rather than hit-and-run attacks you demonstrate a more Christ-like attitude.

[Jim47]

ALL THO THEY ARE MY BROS AND SISTERS A NAME IS A NAME ID STAY OUT OF BOTH CHURCHS 1ST IS LUTHER WOULD BE VERY UPSET IF HE COULD SEE THE LUTHERN CHURCH AND MAD THATS ITS NAMED AFTER HIM HE WAS ALL ABOUT JESUS LOVE BIBLE NOT ANY MORE OR LESS O AND WOMAN TEACHIN IN CHURCHES OUCH HED BE MAD LOL


Your statement shows no understanding at all of the Lutheran church. How can you be so sure that Luther would be upset about us using his name to describe our faith?

Luther wanted nothing more that to bring the precious gospil to lost souls and lead them to Christ, and to make sure thatall realized that we can not earn our salvation like so many other churches teach.

What does your church teach? What parts of our teachings do you agree with?

[Tetzel]

Why is that poster allowed to post here?

[SPALATIN]

ALL THO THEY ARE MY BROS AND SISTERS A NAME IS A NAME ID STAY OUT OF BOTH CHURCHS 1ST IS LUTHER WOULD BE VERY UPSET IF HE COULD SEE THE LUTHERN CHURCH AND MAD THATS ITS NAMED AFTER HIM HE WAS ALL ABOUT JESUS LOVE BIBLE NOT ANY MORE OR LESS O AND WOMAN TEACHIN IN CHURCHES OUCH HED BE MAD LOL

Luther would laugh at you and probably hurl an insult or two your way if he could read what you write. You are not very educated are you? It shows. I am also not going to report you at this time because I think that is what you want us to do. We report you and all of a sudden you go crying back to the folks at General Theology about how we attacked you in our forum.

Well have at it and we'll see just how much you can really take.

[Browneyes84]

hello again everyone, I know it's been a long time since I last posted but I've been er, having some problems with posting certain issues and I hope that my not being a Lutheran isn't going to get my posts deleted from here, will it??

First of all in some of my Bible studies I've come across the issue of scripture vs. tradition. Do Lutherans and most protestants for that matter, hold scripture to be the basis of faith? for example, since purgatory is not in the Bible, the scripture holds it to be a doctrine not in compliance with out faith?

How do Lutherans feel about tradition? do most Lutherans follow major holidays such as Ash Wednesday, Easter, and Christmas? do Lutherans also acknowledge and observe Lent and Advent? Do Lutheran churches as a whole do ashes on Ash Wednesday or is it mainly a church difference?

Someone mentioned earlier that Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary-- then why don't most Lutherans follow that today?

Is American Lutheranism different from the Lutheranism of Europe as far as beliefs and tradition practices? church services and liturgies?

Why exactly are there "subdenominations" within the Lutheran denomination?

[Browneyes84]

Do you have to go through certain classes to become a Lutheran?

As Luther's life changed, did his doctrine change as well, or did he hold true to what he had problems with the RCC at the time?

Do Lutherans basically believe holidays and church services are made for being reverent and observing only, or that they can be a time to "celebrate" the holiday as well?

If a Lutheran married another Christian, who wasn't Lutheran, would the church refrain them from marrying in a Lutheran church? or does it only make a difference if it is a non-Christian compatible marriage?

Why do Lutherans believe in infant baptism? can you still be baptized as an adult? do Lutherans also have confirmation? when a parent is Lutheran, do the children also have to be raised and confirmed as such?

Do Lutherans also believe in the creeds as part of Christian belief?

[Browneyes84]

Now here are some controversial ones, might as well get them over with:

Why do some Lutheran churches allow women to be pastors when the Bible clearly says women cannot preach over men as far as authority in secular matters?

Do Lutherans believe submission should be applied to all world situations of only the marriage and church situation?

Do Lutherans believe that contraceptive is an acceptable choice or is the belief more along the Catholic, where it is a mortal sin?

Do Lutherans believe that their religion is the only true religion, or that Christianity as a whole is the fullest and best way to salvation?

What do Lutherans believe regarding divorce and remarriage? is it acceptable under certain circumstances, or just downright unacceptable?

[LilLamb219]

Wow. I wish I had time to answer all those questions right now! My daughter will be home from school soon though, so I can't even begin to start trying.

Have you checked out any of the Lutheran FAQ sections? The Wels Synod site is the best for Q&A's and next is the LCMS website. http://www.wels.net and http://www.lcms.org

[Browneyes84]

I don't expect these to be answered overnight, so everyone take your time with answering the questions-- sorry I know that is so much, but you should see how many I bombarded OBOB with! lol not saying to expect the same. I don't care if everyone takes a week to answer all these questions, the more thorough you are, the better :D

[IowaLutheran]

hello again everyone, I know it's been a long time since I last posted but I've been er, having some problems with posting certain issues and I hope that my not being a Lutheran isn't going to get my posts deleted from here, will it??

First of all in some of my Bible studies I've come across the issue of scripture vs. tradition. Do Lutherans and most protestants for that matter, hold scripture to be the basis of faith? for example, since purgatory is not in the Bible, the scripture holds it to be a doctrine not in compliance with out faith?

How do Lutherans feel about tradition? do most Lutherans follow major holidays such as Ash Wednesday, Easter, and Christmas? do Lutherans also acknowledge and observe Lent and Advent? Do Lutheran churches as a whole do ashes on Ash Wednesday or is it mainly a church difference?

Someone mentioned earlier that Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary-- then why don't most Lutherans follow that today?

Is American Lutheranism different from the Lutheranism of Europe as far as beliefs and tradition practices? church services and liturgies?

Why exactly are there "subdenominations" within the Lutheran denomination?

1. Lutherans believe in sola scriptura (bible alone) but not in the same way as other protestants. The word trinity is not found in the Bible but we believe that trinitarian theology is consistent with the Bible. In other words, non-Biblical doctrines which are consistent with the Bible are ok, but non-Biblical doctrines inconsistent with the Bible are not (purgatory/indulgences being an example).

2. Lutherans churches generally follow the traditions you mention regarding Christmas, Easter, Lent, and Ash Wednesday. My church imposes ashes but I think we are probably in the minority. I could be wrong.

3. The Book of Concord states that Mary was ever-virgin. Even though it is stated in our book of confessional documents, I think most Lutherans view this as a tangential point and not central to the faith.

4. Lutheranism of Europe is largely state-churches which are in decline. As far as practices and traditions, there is a wide variety in Europe just as in the US, so there are parallels and differences.

5. Why are there "subdenominations"? I don't really like that word, but assuming the word is ok, there are many different Lutheran churches because we have less emphasis on heirarchy and therefore, many churches dveloped by region, and those regional churches made there way to the US through the various waves of immigration. In the US, most merged into what is now the ELCA, with the primary exception being the German heritage of the Missouri Synod.

[BigNorsk]

sola Scriptura is a Lutheran doctrine. It is not a doctrine that rejects all tradition, but is one where the scriptures are the norm and rule by which we receive doctrine.

It would not be a violation of sola Scriptura to say for instance that congregations will meet for worship service at 10:00 Sunday morning so that people would know when to meet. It would be a violation to say anyone or any congregation that doesn't meet at 10:00 Sunday morning is guilty of sin.

I think it would be fair to say that most Lutherans observe those religious holidays, recognize that that observance might be quite a bit different than what others would do for observance. Our salvation is not in observing special days. I'm sure there are some Lutheran congregations that use ashes on Ash Wednesday, most don't.

Please understand that Luther was not infallible nor is he considered so. It is pretty clear that in his early years he did believe in Mary's perpetual virginity. It is not so obvious in later years. At the very least, Mary shrank in his beliefs greatly. Lutheran's believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to our Lord. Her virginity afterwards is really of very little importance.

There are some differences due at least somewhat to the fact that in several countries, the Lutheran church was or is the state church. Partly due to bad effects such a relationship has on the church, I think you would find many American Lutherans are strong proponents of a separate church and state. Basic beliefs would be very similar.

Lutherans have a long history of splitting and combining with each other and even with others.

Some of it went back to the state churches. People worshipped in the languages of the countries they came from. So a town might have a German Lutheran church, a Norwegian Lutheran church, etc... It was only about 25 years ago that the church I grew up in quit having a couple of services in Norwegian every year. We still see some remnants of this, one is those who call themselves Free Lutherans come from Lutheran churches in the countries with a state church that were not the state church, they were not tied to the state but were free.

We also see three major movements that have a big effect on denomonations within Lutheranism today.

One is the "higher criticism" of scripture. That gave us the historical-critical style of interpretation of scripture. It is generally thought of as somewhat liberal in outlook and normally the scriptures are said to contain truth but that they weren't word-for-word inspired. This would be what we see in the ELCA, that largest largest Lutheran denomination in the US. It tends to think in relative terms more and is in full communion with some Presbyterian and Anglican churches.

Then there is confessionalism. That is generally a rather strict belief that the Book of Concord is a completely correct and helps us interpret scripture. One of the confessional Lutherans here will probably chime in with the correct phrases. Confessional Lutheranism tends to define faith as believing correct doctrine. So there is an undercurrent that anyone who disagrees in anything really doesn't share the same faith. Denominations of confessional Lutherans would be the LCMS and the WELS, as well as several smaller denominations.

Then there is the Pietistic Lutherans. That's a movement that really came about several times in protest of dead churches. Often those were the dead state churches in Europe, so, many pietistic lutherans were also free lutherans. Pietistic Lutherans stress that saving faith isn't a faith that produces no changes in a person. The danger lies in if one starts to judge other people's or even your own salvation according to ones sanctification. Pietistic denominations are not large. The Lutheran Brethren, and many of the Free Lutherans are the remaining examples. Many others are merged into the ELCA. I'm not sure if there is any denomination that comes primarily from the German Pietistic Lutherans.

One non-Lutheran denomination that has a lot of it's roots in pietistic Lutherans is the Evangelical Free denomination. Their primary difference would be they do not recognize the two sacraments, baptism and communion, as sacraments, but only as memorials.

That leaves just a few. Either they are independants or they have some other thing that they share. For instance there are just a very few KJO Lutheran churches. I never understood that, I would have thought a Lutheran that would say there is only one bible we should use would have used Luther's, but I don't know of any Luther's Bible only Lutherans.

The trend has been towards merger in recent history except I think we are starting to see confessional Lutherans in the US split more, at least for a time.

Hope that explains some.

Marv

[IowaLutheran]

Do you have to go through certain classes to become a Lutheran?

As Luther's life changed, did his doctrine change as well, or did he hold true to what he had problems with the RCC at the time?

Do Lutherans basically believe holidays and church services are made for being reverent and observing only, or that they can be a time to "celebrate" the holiday as well?

If a Lutheran married another Christian, who wasn't Lutheran, would the church refrain them from marrying in a Lutheran church? or does it only make a difference if it is a non-Christian compatible marriage?

Why do Lutherans believe in infant baptism? can you still be baptized as an adult? do Lutherans also have confirmation? when a parent is Lutheran, do the children also have to be raised and confirmed as such?

Do Lutherans also believe in the creeds as part of Christian belief?

1. Yes. Those who grow up Lutheran go through a 2 year (usually) program called confirmation and are confirmed in (usually) 9th grade. Adults are catechetized in various forms, involving a smaller number of classes.

2. Luther was not a systematic theologian, so it is not possible to go through his dozens of volumes of writings and come up with a nice, tightly wrapped theology. Once he found justification by grace alone through faith, all other theologies revolve around that core and he did remain fairly consistent.

3. Not quite sure what you mean. In my experience we celebrate Christmas and Easter, but remain reverent.

4. I think mixed marriages are usually ok although the pastor should talk to the couple in depth beforehand to make sure it is not an insurmountable hurdle, particularly regarding how to raise any kids.

5. Yes. We believe in infant baptism because we are all children of God, Jesus chastised those who kept children away from him, and we emphasize that faith is not our doing, it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

6. We believe in the Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds.

[IowaLutheran]

Now here are some controversial ones, might as well get them over with:

Why do some Lutheran churches allow women to be pastors when the Bible clearly says women cannot preach over men as far as authority in secular matters?

Do Lutherans believe submission should be applied to all world situations of only the marriage and church situation?

Do Lutherans believe that contraceptive is an acceptable choice or is the belief more along the Catholic, where it is a mortal sin?

Do Lutherans believe that their religion is the only true religion, or that Christianity as a whole is the fullest and best way to salvation?

What do Lutherans believe regarding divorce and remarriage? is it acceptable under certain circumstances, or just downright unacceptable?

1. I am ELCA, so I am of one of the churches you speak of. To be totally honest, I have not studied the issue in detail so I cannot give you a great reason. I guess I just trust that many people smarter than me have researched the issue and have come up with the conclusion that women pastors are ok.

2. Don't know what you mean by submission.

3. Contraception is ok within the confines of marriage when couples are making an honest decision on how many children to have.

4. We believe that Lutherans have the best set of beliefs but we don't go around calling ourselves the "one true church". Jesus is the way, truth, and life, so Jesus is the way to God, but I do not presume to know all the ways in which Jesus saves people.

5. Divorce and remarriage is not forbidden. We recognize that we live in a world of sin and broken relationships. However, that does not mean that there should not be some serious repenting in some cases.

[Protoevangel]

hello again everyone, I know it's been a long time since I last posted but I've been er, having some problems with posting certain issues and I hope that my not being a Lutheran isn't going to get my posts deleted from here, will it??
NO, of course not. :)

First of all in some of my Bible studies I've come across the issue of scripture vs. tradition. Do Lutherans and most protestants for that matter, hold scripture to be the basis of faith? for example, since purgatory is not in the Bible, the scripture holds it to be a doctrine not in compliance with out faith?
For Lutheran's, Scripture is the only source and norm for faith and teaching.

How do Lutherans feel about tradition? do most Lutherans follow major holidays such as Ash Wednesday, Easter, and Christmas? do Lutherans also acknowledge and observe Lent and Advent? Do Lutheran churches as a whole do ashes on Ash Wednesday or is it mainly a church difference?
Tradition is good and beneficial. Lutherans folow the Church calendar, and often use ashes on Ash Wednesday. We do so because we are free to do so, not because we must.

Someone mentioned earlier that Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary-- then why don't most Lutherans follow that today?
Many Lutherans do. The Perpetual Virginity is a teaching in accordance with tradition, but is not explicitly taught in Scripture, therefore it is not Church Doctrine.

Is American Lutheranism different from the Lutheranism of Europe as far as beliefs and tradition practices? church services and liturgies?
Practices may change from congregation to congregation, and I have never had the honor to visit a Lutheran congregation in Europe, so I cannot answer this one for you. Hopefully someone else can.

Why exactly are there "subdenominations" within the Lutheran denomination?
Lutherans do not always agree on what teachings are necessary for unity.

Do you have to go through certain classes to become a Lutheran?
Generally, one is expected to take a series of classes, to ensure they understand the most basics of basics in Lutheran teaching. That changes from congregation to congregation, though.

As Luther's life changed, did his doctrine change as well, or did he hold true to what he had problems with the RCC at the time?
Some thought developed, and I'm sure some changed as well, as would be expected for anyone.

Do Lutherans basically believe holidays and church services are made for being reverent and observing only, or that they can be a time to "celebrate" the holiday as well?
Depends on the holiday. Church services are generally reverent.

If a Lutheran married another Christian, who wasn't Lutheran, would the church refrain them from marrying in a Lutheran church? or does it only make a difference if it is a non-Christian compatible marriage?
No "laws" requiring Lutheran-only or Christian-only marriage.

Why do Lutherans believe in infant baptism? can you still be baptized as an adult? do Lutherans also have confirmation? when a parent is Lutheran, do the children also have to be raised and confirmed as such?
We believe in infant Baptism because it is Biblical. Of course one can be Baptized as an adult. Yes, we have confirmation. No "laws" requiring a child be raised Lutheran, but of course it is encouraged.

Do Lutherans also believe in the creeds as part of Christian belief?
Of couse.

Now here are some controversial ones, might as well get them over with:

Why do some Lutheran churches allow women to be pastors when the Bible clearly says women cannot preach over men as far as authority in secular matters?
What so you mean "the Bible clearly says women cannot preach over men as far as authority in secular matters?"

Do Lutherans believe submission should be applied to all world situations of only the marriage and church situation?
What does the Bible specifically and explicitly state? Generally, only in matters of Church authority. The head of the marriage bond is also the man, but every couple is different, and there is much variance and freesom in how that may be put into practice.

Do Lutherans believe that contraceptive is an acceptable choice or is the belief more along the Catholic, where it is a mortal sin?
Contraception is an issue left up to the married couple who is considering it.

Do Lutherans believe that their religion is the only true religion, or that Christianity as a whole is the fullest and best way to salvation?
Yes, Christianity is the only true Religion. The orthodox Lutheran church simply keeps the purest doctrine. Some Lutheran churches are allowing other factors to intrude upon the purity of their doctrine, however.

What do Lutherans believe regarding divorce and remarriage? is it acceptable under certain circumstances, or just downright unacceptable?
It depends on the circumstances. Was one spouce unfaithful? Was one spouce an unbeliever? Generally, remarriage is not ever "forbidden" (to the best of my knowledge, anyway), but prayer and repentance may well be counseled and reccomended.

[Browneyes84]

What so you mean "the Bible clearly says women cannot preach over men as far as authority in secular matters?"


What does the Bible specifically and explicitly state? Generally, only in matters of Church authority. The head of the marriage bond is also the man, but every couple is different, and there is much variance and freesom in how that may be put into practice.

Oops I meant non-secular, as in religious authority. I knew I messed up that word somehow, crudders....

What I mean is, paul wrote in the Bible that women are not to preach or have authority over men when it comes to the church, but they can preach over other women and children. If that is what the Bible says, why is it not that Lutherans, along with other protestants, don't adhere to that? I guess I just don't understand.

I also asked that question in regards to submission because some protestants believe that women should be submissive to men regardless of whether they are in a marriage relationship. I know that I went to the WELS website regarding women's and men's roles and they believed that was just an "opinion" that the Bible says women are to be submissive only in a marriage situation.

[Protoevangel]

Oops I meant non-secular, as in religious authority. I knew I messed up that word somehow, crudders....
No Problem.

What I mean is, paul wrote in the Bible that women are not to preach or have authority over men when it comes to the church, but they can preach over other women and children. If that is what the Bible says, why is it not that Lutherans, along with other protestants, don't adhere to that? I guess I just don't understand.
SomeLutherans... ELCA and ELCIC claim those sections of the Bible are onlu Paul's opinion, and not necessarily God's will for all the Church. LCMS, LCC, TAALC, WELS and many others, on the other hand, try to be true to that, and all Biblical teaching.

I also asked that question in regards to submission because some protestants believe that women should be submissive to men regardless of whether they are in a marriage relationship. I know that I went to the WELS website regarding women's and men's roles and they believed that was just an "opinion" that the Bible says women are to be submissive only in a marriage situation.
I would like to see that link. I think something was misunderstood. From what I have read on the WELS site, they take the teaching of the headship very seriously.

[IowaLutheran]

What I mean is, paul wrote in the Bible that women are not to preach or have authority over men when it comes to the church, but they can preach over other women and children. If that is what the Bible says, why is it not that Lutherans, along with other protestants, don't adhere to that? I guess I just don't understand.



I kind of punted on this question before; I gave it some thought and I seem to recall that the primary Biblical texts that those in favor of women's ordination use are Paul's statement that in Christ we are all one and there is no Jew or Greek, woman or man, or slave or free, as well as the references to the ministries of Junia and Phoebe.

To be honest, I know women pastors and am friends with some of them, and I recognize the validity of their ministries. However, in retrospect, in light of the Bible and 1,970 years of tradition, I do have some concern about the hastiness of the decision to ordain women and the impact it has had ecumenically. The church I grew up in (ALC, a predecessor body to ELCA) was in fellowship with the LCMS until this decision, I believe. It has also had a major impact on our dicussions with the Orthodox and Catholics.

[ricg]

First of all in some of my Bible studies I've come across the issue of scripture vs. tradition. Do Lutherans and most protestants for that matter, hold scripture to be the basis of faith? for example, since purgatory is not in the Bible, the scripture holds it to be a doctrine not in compliance with out faith?

Lutherans hold Scripture to be the basis upon which teaching a is judged. If Scripture speaks to an issue, a teaching that contradicts it is held by Lutherans to be false. A teaching about something to which Scripture does not clearly speak is a teaching about which the Church should not be dogmatic. Purgatory is a concept that results from the idea that something aside from the atonement won by Jesus on cross is required to enter heaven. Since the underlying idea contradicts Scripture, it follows that the concept of Purgatory is false.

How do Lutherans feel about tradition? do most Lutherans follow major holidays such as Ash Wednesday, Easter, and Christmas? do Lutherans also acknowledge and observe Lent and Advent? Do Lutheran churches as a whole do ashes on Ash Wednesday or is it mainly a church difference?

Most of us like tradition and many find it helpful to recall important truths of faith received from our forebearers. The Lutheran churches I've held membership in have observed all the times you mentioned and have imposed ashes.

Someone mentioned earlier that Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary-- then why don't most Lutherans follow that today?

I think because they believe that the Biblical mention of brothers is most simply explained as children of Mary, and it seems natural for her to have had children by a man, as was customary. Many things Luther believed were little more than prejudices of his times, so we don't believe everything he said, and we don't believe anything he said merely because he said it. It is not impossible, of course, that Mary remained a virgin. The Bible doesn't clearly say, so we're not dogmatic about it.

Is American Lutheranism different from the Lutheranism of Europe as far as beliefs and tradition practices? church services and liturgies?

The state churches of the Scandanavian countries and Germany are most closely related to the ELCA in the United States. They tend to be rather extremely liberal and tolerant. This results from many historic factors, but primarily from the influence of rationalism and the higher critical methods of treating Scripture. Lutheranism in the United States tends to be more conservative. Even the ELCA is more conservative than the state churches, and the smaller but significant Lutheran bodies in the United States, are much more conservative, since they reject higher criticism. There are small "free" churches in Europe that align with the conservative, confessional Lutheran bodies in the US, but they are tiny compared with their counterparts in the US.

Why exactly are there "subdenominations" within the Lutheran denomination?

The basic question dividing Lutheranism is whether the Bible IS the Word of God or whether it CONTAINS the Word of God, the latter implying it contains something else as well. The second group is essentially the ELCA. The largest part of the first group (roughly termed as the "confessionals") is in the LCMS, or Missouri Synod.

There are several smaller groups, which, if more related to the ELCA, usually disagree about what parts of Scripture are binding and therefore what must be taught.

The smaller "confessional" groups (e.g., WELS) often disagree with each other about what level of unity is required for fellowship with others. Thus, even though they might agree on almost everything else, they might remain separate because to have fellowship with X if X is in fellowship with Y would be tantamount to having fellowship with Y, when Y's doctrine is insufficiently orthodox.

[Browneyes84]

So do Lutherans, along with most other Protestants, hold scripture so high that God is only contained within the Bible? that's something that I've noticed from going to other Protestant churches. What I mean by saying that is some go so far as to say if it is LITERALLY not in the Bible, it is heretical and forbidden and "of man". A lot of New Testament churches don't even know what Lent, Ash Wednesday, and Advent are. A lot don't even know what creeds are!

Here is the link:
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=781&contentID=4446&shortcutID=7838

You have to scroll down and read the list that states what they reject and stuff. It just bothers me to be told that I have to be submissive to a man that isn't my husband, and it bothers me more to be told that in church, women cannot have leadership positions (not talking pastor, but smaler group functions).

At school a WELS pastor told me that the small group fundraisers and activities they hold are never run by a girl, always a guy. He said it's to show the female submission relationship with men, but it still bothered me.

Also do Lutherans feel it necessary to mix their faith into politics? for example, I know that the Vatican would probably like to see what they want for morality and politics in the political sphere. Do Lutherans believe in that also? I mean would we be a "bad" Christian for wanting to keep our religion and politics separated?

[LutherNut]

Why do some Lutheran churches allow women to be pastors when the Bible clearly says women cannot preach... 1. I am ELCA, so I am of one of the churches you speak of. To be totally honest, I have not studied the issue in detail so I cannot give you a great reason. I guess I just trust that many people smarter than me have researched the issue and have come up with the conclusion that women pastors are ok.


The difference is that the ELCA does not believe that the Biblical passages concerning women not having the authority to preach in the Church is the Word of God. They believe that it was just Paul's opinion that he wrote to Corinth and Timothy and Titus.

[Tetzel]

I think the perfect church would have the true catholic (small 'c') doctrine of the evangelical, confessional Lutheran Church and the high regard for the liturgy and traditions of the Roman Catholic (capital 'C') or Eastern Orthodox Church.:thumbsup:

Although the Lutheran Church started that way, most have gone the route of the evangelical protestants with low church practices, no liturgies, and contemporary style music. :cry:



Jay:sigh:

I like high liturgy best, but I am not going to arrogate to myself the right to decide proper worship methods. I don't care how people worship within our Church as long as the word is rightly preached and the sacraments examined. If this means 5 hour mass fine, if this means endless nauseating praise songs fine, if this means heavy metal mass fine!

[BigNorsk]

1.Do you have to go through certain classes to become a Lutheran?

2.As Luther's life changed, did his doctrine change as well, or did he hold true to what he had problems with the RCC at the time?

3.Do Lutherans basically believe holidays and church services are made for being reverent and observing only, or that they can be a time to "celebrate" the holiday as well?

4.If a Lutheran married another Christian, who wasn't Lutheran, would the church refrain them from marrying in a Lutheran church? or does it only make a difference if it is a non-Christian compatible marriage?

5.Why do Lutherans believe in infant baptism? can you still be baptized as an adult? do Lutherans also have confirmation? when a parent is Lutheran, do the children also have to be raised and confirmed as such?

6.Do Lutherans also believe in the creeds as part of Christian belief?

1. Many people are Lutheran without realizing it, but generally most Lutheran congregations are going to either have some class or have some meetings with the pastor as necessary to join that congregation, that usually wouldn't apply to people transfering from another similar congregation. But what does it hurt to find out if people are on the same page? Maybe the person doesn't know, and then it is a great opportunity to teach and learn.

2. Sure he changed, Luther started out as a devout Catholic monk. He had his tower experience and the rest, as they say, is history. I am always pretty cautious about something written before 1525, I find writings after 1530 or maybe a little earlier to be very stable. Luther himself wrote how he was sorry he had written some things. That's just my rule of thumb.

3. We can celebrate as well, it isn't like we are part of some horrible thing, we are a part of the conquering of death by our Lord and Savior. It is like when Jesus was asked why his disciples didn't fast like the disciples of John, he said that they didn't fast when with the bridegroom, he would leave them and then they would fast.

Well Jesus is with us, and being a holy people isn't wearing a hair coat and beating yourself with a whip.

4. Mine would not. We allow anyone who wants to be married in our church to use it free of charge. That doesn't mean that we require our pastor to perform the ceremony or that we would stamp any marriage with our blessings.

5. There really isn't infant baptism there is only baptism and many are baptised as infants. We do it because God's promise is to us and to our children. We do it because families and even the nation of Israel were all baptised at the same time. And the practise is strengthened by the clear witness of history that many who are baptised as infants show through their life that they are true christians.

Lutherans have confirmation, it is not a sacrament but gets it's name from confirming what we receive through baptism. It is a time of more intense study, usually with the pastor, but sometimes with another learned individual.

Why wouldn't a Lutheran want his children raised and taught as a Lutheran? I don't understand the question. Parents have a responsibility to properly teach their children. It would be hypocritical to believe that Lutheranism is correct and yet teach one's children something different.

6. Yes, the Apostle's, the Nicene, and the Anthanasian are all Creeds that are pretty universally recognized by all Lutherans. Though not written in the form of a creed, I think you could also put the Augsburg Confession in that category. Do you also recognize the Creeds?

Marv

[BigNorsk]

Now here are some controversial ones, might as well get them over with:

1. Why do some Lutheran churches allow women to be pastors when the Bible clearly says women cannot preach over men as far as authority in secular matters?

2. Do Lutherans believe submission should be applied to all world situations of only the marriage and church situation?

3. Do Lutherans believe that contraceptive is an acceptable choice or is the belief more along the Catholic, where it is a mortal sin?

4. Do Lutherans believe that their religion is the only true religion, or that Christianity as a whole is the fullest and best way to salvation?

5. What do Lutherans believe regarding divorce and remarriage? is it acceptable under certain circumstances, or just downright unacceptable?

1. The basis of that comes from the historical-critical method of interpretation of scripture. As far as I know, I don't think any of the Lutheran synods that hold to the grammatical-historical method of interpretation permit women to be pastors. Within those groups there is some disagreement. Some like the WELS are more restrictive, not even allowing women to vote in congregational matters. Others are less restrictive. All accept that women are not to be in positions of authority over men. The question is how much authority is too much.

2. I don't think there is a universal Lutheran position on that, but I think most Lutherans would not forbid a woman from being the boss of a man in the workplace.

3. More along the line where it is acceptable, but I wouldn't want to go so far as to say all forms of what gets lumped into contraception is acceptable to all Lutherans. Lutherans don't spend a lot of time on mortal sin vs venial sin.

4. Lutherans believe that all believers are part of the invisible church. That the visible church is where preaching and the sacraments are done properly. Lutherans are not generally exclusive in teaching no one is saved outside Lutheranism but they do believe that most others have some serious errors.

5. Divorce is a horrible thing. Lutherans do not generally forbid remarriage after divorce.

Marv

[BigNorsk]

1. So do Lutherans, along with most other Protestants, hold scripture so high that God is only contained within the Bible? that's something that I've noticed from going to other Protestant churches. What I mean by saying that is some go so far as to say if it is LITERALLY not in the Bible, it is heretical and forbidden and "of man". A lot of New Testament churches don't even know what Lent, Ash Wednesday, and Advent are. A lot don't even know what creeds are!

Here is the link:
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=781&contentID=4446&shortcutID=7838

2. You have to scroll down and read the list that states what they reject and stuff. It just bothers me to be told that I have to be submissive to a man that isn't my husband, and it bothers me more to be told that in church, women cannot have leadership positions (not talking pastor, but smaler group functions).

At school a WELS pastor told me that the small group fundraisers and activities they hold are never run by a girl, always a guy. He said it's to show the female submission relationship with men, but it still bothered me.

3. Also do Lutherans feel it necessary to mix their faith into politics? for example, I know that the Vatican would probably like to see what they want for morality and politics in the political sphere. Do Lutherans believe in that also? I mean would we be a "bad" Christian for wanting to keep our religion and politics separated?


1. Lutherans are not of the type that if you can't find it explicitely stated in scripture you must get rid of it. There are many areas of freedom. A word you might like to spend some time searching for is "adiaphora" it is often used by Lutherans to describe the things neither forbidden nor required by scripture.

Where Lutherans would draw a very hard line is where people want to make things not in the Bible articles of faith. That is doctrine or dogma. We do not believe man has the right to attach sin to his own teachings.

2. The WELS are very strict on women's roles. I do not, and most other Lutherans would agree, that a woman voting in a congregational meeting is what the scripture is talking about in not having a woman have authority over a man. I think the WELS miss the mark of scripture by restricting more than scripture actually teaches.

My congregation does not believe that it is scriptural for a woman to be an elder (that would include pastors). But there is much that women can do.

There is even the ministry of teaching young wives how to run their household and love their husbands that is specifically given to women, and not men.

3. I don't think it is really possible for people to separate their religion from their politics. A lot of people do compartmentalize their life, even some who appear to be christian only on Sundays, but even that is really a reflection of their religion.

Marv

[SPALATIN]

Where Lutherans would draw a very hard line is where people want to make things not in the Bible articles of faith. That is doctrine or dogma. We do not believe man has the right to attach sin to his own teachings.


Marv

:scratch:

Marv,

If this is the case then wouldn't you be throwing out the Book of Concord? The documents themselves are not in the Bible, yet we consider them "articles of faith"

You might want to re-word this particular part.

Scott

[Protoevangel]

So do Lutherans, along with most other Protestants, hold scripture so high that God is only contained within the Bible? that's something that I've noticed from going to other Protestant churches. What I mean by saying that is some go so far as to say if it is LITERALLY not in the Bible, it is heretical and forbidden and "of man". A lot of New Testament churches don't even know what Lent, Ash Wednesday, and Advent are. A lot don't even know what creeds are!
Much like BigNorsk said, Lutherans generally require what is required in the Bible, reject what is rejected in the Bible, and discuss the benefit of things that are neither required nor rejected in the Bible. That does not mean we are quick to change practices just because someone or some group wants to change the practice. If a practice is going to be changed, it should be clearly demonstrated that the old practice was damaging to faith, and this new practice corrects the abuse or problem.

Here is the link:
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=781&contentID=4446&shortcutID=7838

You have to scroll down and read the list that states what they reject and stuff. It just bothers me to be told that I have to be submissive to a man that isn't my husband, and it bothers me more to be told that in church, women cannot have leadership positions (not talking pastor, but smaler group functions).

At school a WELS pastor told me that the small group fundraisers and activities they hold are never run by a girl, always a guy. He said it's to show the female submission relationship with men, but it still bothered me.
I see, I misunderstood your previous post. I do think the WELS pastor you spoke to was likely outside of the mainstream for WELS. Consider the folllowing paragraph from the page you provided the link to:

"All Christians, men and women, are to use their God-given gifts to serve each other (1 Pe 4:10). Women are encouraged to participate in offices and activities of the public ministry except where the work involves authority over men."

To not allow women to participate in fundraising events would be a little extreme, I think.

Also do Lutherans feel it necessary to mix their faith into politics? for example, I know that the Vatican would probably like to see what they want for morality and politics in the political sphere. Do Lutherans believe in that also? I mean would we be a "bad" Christian for wanting to keep our religion and politics separated?
We do believe in the policy of the seperation of church and state. The Church should not run Government, and Government should not run the Church. On the other hand, like BigNorsk said, people of faith should be true to their faith in whatever vocation they choose.

[BigNorsk]

:scratch:

Marv,

If this is the case then wouldn't you be throwing out the Book of Concord? The documents themselves are not in the Bible, yet we consider them "articles of faith"

You might want to re-word this particular part.

Scott

No, the statement is just fine as it is. If there is anything in the Book of Concord that is not from scripture, there would be no sin attached to believing differently. Man has no power to attach sin to a belief or practice.

Marv

[Edial]

You can't "ask Jesus into your heart".
And why not ?

Ed

[Edial]

Now here are some controversial ones, might as well get them over with:
Let me try answering them. :)
In many ways I am considered to be a "black sheep" by some at this forum, yet I am trying to go by the Scriptures, so ... :)

Why do some Lutheran churches allow women to be pastors when the Bible clearly says women cannot preach over men as far as authority in secular matters?
Depends on the church. :)
The Lutherans even have a pro-homosexual agenda. :) But not all.
Some just claim to go by the SCriptures, some try to follow and some do follow.

In my church we have the male Pastor. Assistants are females and males. I do not have a problem with female assistants, since it cannot be disproven Scripturally.

When Pastor is away, a female Pastor preaches and distributes the elements. I do not go to that service that day.


Do Lutherans believe submission should be applied to all world situations of only the marriage and church situation?
I am not sure I understand the question.

Do Lutherans believe that contraceptive is an acceptable choice or is the belief more along the Catholic, where it is a mortal sin?
I believe that human life start when the baby generates its own blood - "The life is in the blood". So, it is murder at that stage.
I also believe that God works on the human by shaping him from the conception.
But since life is in the blood, the life of the baby start when the baby generates his/her own blood.

To prevent conception?
I do not have a problem with that.


Do Lutherans believe that their religion is the only true religion, or that Christianity as a whole is the fullest and best way to salvation?
I certainly hope they do not believe that they are the only ones from the Christiandom that have the whole truth. :)
However, the Lutherans do believe that outside of Christ there is no salvation.

What do Lutherans believe regarding divorce and remarriage? is it acceptable under certain circumstances, or just downright unacceptable?
Acceptable under certain circumstances.

You see, I became a Lutheran by faith. :)

I like their doctrine.

But if I'd follow Lutherans as individuals, I'd be in Sanatorium by now. :)

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

So do Lutherans, along with most other Protestants, hold scripture so high that God is only contained within the Bible? that's something that I've noticed from going to other Protestant churches. What I mean by saying that is some go so far as to say if it is LITERALLY not in the Bible, it is heretical and forbidden and "of man".
These pesky Baptists (:)) sometimes go over board as do many other denominations.
They got it backwards.

the Scriptures state that they have all there is to know concerning salvation.
However, the SCriptures also state that the Bible does not reflect all things of God.

So, the litmus test should be this.
If a certain tradition contradicts the Bible - it must be stopped.
And if the Bible is silent concerning this tradition - enjoy. :) (As long as it glorifies God, of course).
A lot of New Testament churches don't even know what Lent, Ash Wednesday, and Advent are. A lot don't even know what creeds are!
And that's OK too. As long as this glorifies God, of course :)


It just bothers me to be told that I have to be submissive to a man that isn't my husband, and it bothers me more to be told that in church, women cannot have leadership positions (not talking pastor, but smaler group functions).
Well, if these guys promote that, then they bend the stick the other way. :)

At school a WELS pastor told me that the small group fundraisers and activities they hold are never run by a girl, always a guy. He said it's to show the female submission relationship with men, but it still bothered me.
:D .
I wonder if his mother knew. :D

Also do Lutherans feel it necessary to mix their faith into politics? for example, I know that the Vatican would probably like to see what they want for morality and politics in the political sphere. Do Lutherans believe in that also? I mean would we be a "bad" Christian for wanting to keep our religion and politics separated?
I keep it separated. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed

[KEPLER]

But if I'd follow Lutherans as individuals, I'd be in Sanatorium by now.

Hey Ed... You made an amusing and theologically correct mistake here! :thumbsup: I think oyu meant to say "asylum" as in, a place for crazy people, correct? (And yes, we Lutherans are indeed a wacky bunch..)

A "sanatarium" is a convalescent hospital; a place to go for long term recuperation from chronic illness: a hospital.

Luther often referred to the Church as a hospital...(as do many of the Early Christian Fathers...!)

Well done! (and you are in a a sanatarium! Welcome!)

Kepler

[KEPLER]

These pesky Baptists (:)) sometimes go over board as do many other denominations.
They got it backwards.
Uh oh, Ed. Seems we're rubbing off on you...

the Scriptures state that they have all there is to know concerning salvation.
However, the SCriptures also state that the Bible does not reflect all things of God.

So, the litmus test should be this.
If a certain tradition contradicts the Bible - it must be stopped.
And if the Bible is silent concerning this tradition - enjoy. :) (As long as it glorifies God, of course).
A is for Adiaphora.

Not bad, rookie.

Cheers,

Kepler

[Edial]

Uh oh, Ed. Seems we're rubbing off on you...
Not necessarily. :)
These are my objections to the Baptists as well as to the Lutherans.

But the "rubbing off" part is probably seen (or could be seen) in the sense of humor. The attempt of it, that is. :)


A is for Adiaphora.

Not bad, rookie.

Cheers,

Kepler
Wait till you see my next post. :D

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Edial]

Hey Ed... You made an amusing and theologically correct mistake here! :thumbsup: I think oyu meant to say "asylum" as in, a place for crazy people, correct? (And yes, we Lutherans are indeed a wacky bunch..)

A "sanatarium" is a convalescent hospital; a place to go for long term recuperation from chronic illness: a hospital.

Luther often referred to the Church as a hospital...(as do many of the Early Christian Fathers...!)

Well done! (and you are in a a sanatarium! Welcome!)

Kepler
I take Lipitor 20mg a day and 1 aspirin. :)