Luther and Calvin

[Tertiumquid]

Hi folks!

I don't think i've come over here before. I'd like to ask a "poll" type of question.

If you are a non-denomiantional Chrsitian, and you strongly (or even weakly) dislike Martin Luther and John Calvin, could you please briefly explain why?

I'm really asking for research purposes. I'm just trying to get a handle on what non-denominational folks think about these two guys.

Thank You so much,
James Swan

[RichardT]

Hi folks!

I don't think i've come over here before. I'd like to ask a "poll" type of question.

If you are a non-denomiantional Chrsitian, and you strongly (or even weakly) dislike Martin Luther and John Calvin, could you please briefly explain why?

I'm really asking for research purposes. I'm just trying to get a handle on what non-denominational folks think about these two guys.

Thank You so much,
James Swan

I don't believe in anyone having to interpret the bible for me... But I love Martin Luther for seperating from the catholic church at the time... He is a Hero ....

[Artificial Intelligence]

Why would I dislike Luther or Calvin? I may not agree with every point that they hold, but their contributions were outstanding. Ok maybe they were not as great as Darby, but not everyone can be as gifted, and diversity makes life interesting nonetheless. :)

[New_Wineskin]

Hi folks!

I don't think i've come over here before. I'd like to ask a "poll" type of question.

If you are a non-denomiantional Chrsitian, and you strongly (or even weakly) dislike Martin Luther and John Calvin, could you please briefly explain why?

I'm really asking for research purposes. I'm just trying to get a handle on what non-denominational folks think about these two guys.

Thank You so much,
James Swan

I am not answering as a "nondenominational" - only as myself .

I dislike them both becuase of their hatred towards those that disagree with them . I also dislike them for their hypocracy .

Again , this has nothing to do with my being nondenominational . Well , maybe it does a little . I am nondenominational because I don't agree with the kinds of heirarchy and control their groups represent .

[Leimeng]

~ It is less an issue of disliking them and more an issue of disagreeing with them. They are men just like you and me who make mistakes. Sadly, the are often idolized almost to the point of worship by some people.
~ Theologically they have some interesting and good ideas, and many illogical and bad ideas.
~ It is best to read GOD's Word for your theology and trust the Holy Spirit to teach you and lead you instead of Luther and Calvin.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One liners Here***)

[vangelicmonk]

Why would I dislike Luther or Calvin? I may not agree with every point that they hold, but their contributions were outstanding. Ok maybe they were not as great as Darby, but not everyone can be as gifted, and diversity makes life interesting nonetheless. :)

lol. that was good Faith_Warrior.

I'm pretty much with Faith_Warrior on this one.

I respect Luther because he protested and stood up for The Word of God over the Church. Nevertheless, I don't agree with many of his doctrinal stands as someone who is premillenial and pretrib.

I respect Calvin for standing by the Word, but I don't agree with some of the things he did in the name of Christ and some of his doctrinal stands.

I love that they are part of the history of Christianity and the history of protestantism and evangelicalism.

[savedbyfaithinchrist]

SOMETHIN FOR YOUR RESERCH there our bros in christ man .
what they did is awsome we need another Calvin and Luther in this age

[Cre8]

For those of us who are educated in classical languages, theology, and works of literary antiquity there are some interesting tidbits gathered on these two important men. First, I shall let Calvin speak for himself:

“Who will venture to place the authority of Copernicus above that of the Holy Spirit?” -John Calvin.

John Calvin was responsible for burning Michael Servetus alive (until dead) on October 27, 1553. The charge? Verbal blasphemy. Time magazine labeled him in 1947: the "ascetic, heretic-burning John Calvin"?

Michael Servetus was unquestionably a brilliant thinker. A physician for much of his life, he wrote about the pulmonary circulation of the blood scores of years before William Harvey's more well-known announcement of discovery. At the age of 20 in 1531, he published Errors on the Trinity. That treatise would cost him his life 22 years later. In an age of unprecedented, tumultuous change, his position on the Trinity was so controversial that Williston Walker commented, "To Protestants and Catholics alike . . . he seemed an extreme heretic, and he was, indeed, a radical of radicals." The outcry against his book was so great that he was forced to live under a pseudonym as he took up medicine in Paris. There he met Calvin. Calvin, like many other radical Fundamentalists, despise those who disagree with them.

Now on to the words of Luther: “Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools.”

“Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people.”

“...their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain.”

“Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?”

"Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward."

“Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.”

“Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch-thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.”

[all Luther quotes from Medieval Sourcebook: Martin Luther (1483-1546): The Jews and Their Lies (http://www.realityspoken.com/lies.htm), excerpts, 1543.]

To sum up, Calvin was gifted; he wrote The Institutes of the Christian Religion at age 27. Luther too was a talent. His talents, unfortunately, were overshadowed by his hatred for the Jews. Even a simpleton can see the similarities between Luther's words and Hitler's words centuries later. And this, mind you, has not been articulated by an Arminian.

More: http://www.realityspoken.com/evil

[Overcomer2002]

I remember in history class we were taught about THE HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE.

During this era and beyond upto today, the politicians/kings always wanted to get the approval of the church in all matters, including their ordination, in order that they may legitimize their authority over the laity.(This goes on today with politicians defining who the religious people are and what they want). At the time of the Holy Mother Church then Luther then Calvin and so on, the kings and their subordinates (governors, representatives etc.) for the distant areas of the empire, often promised and paid off the current religious system that was in vogue at that time to keep the peace. (Just like Rome told Herod/Pilate/Sanhedrin at the time of Jesus; KEEP THE PEACE) When a righteous man like Jesus stirred up trouble, the ruling religious authority lowered the boom to keep the peace. (the "Better that one man die rather than they lose their jobs" scenario applies)

As far as I know through writings I can't find at this time, Calvin sent out a letter to the Arminians at that time to discuss Predestination and Free Will. As soon as the Arminians' showed up, Calvin arrested some, killed a few and exiled many. All under the authority of the government. Sorry I can't bring up the source but it is available if you want to do the research.

Thank the Lord Jesus Christ that He works through all the bad preachers and bad denominations.

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit work their way through all of them to produce a refined truly repentent saint.

Sincerely

[ghs1994]

Both men did a great job. I don't follow every single principle of their theology. I won't follow anything other than what the Spirit has taught me in God's Word.

My theology? God is Almighty / Man is Responsible. Jesus it what brings the two together. Most want to go deeper than that, which I do, which is fine. But at the end of the day, thru all that study and all the back and forth trying to get a good bead on what God is trying to accomplish, this is what the whole bible is basically about. Who can know why God did all the things He did and continues to do? I only know my job as a born again Christian and what God expects of me. I do my job so God can do His. Not that He needs me, but chooses to use me.

[Tertiumquid]

Thank you everybody for sharing your opinions. Your comments will be helpful. I have done a fair amount of research on the Protestant Reformation (http://www.ntrmin.org/rccorner.htm#Reformation).

Currently i'm involved in a dialog with a Lutheran friend on the relationship between Luther and Calvin http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=151&topic_id=27675&mesg_id=27675&page=

Your comments will be helpful to the discussion. Thank you.

James Swan