why isin't there a forum for Jehova's wittnesses ? [Archive]

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RichardT

3rd December 2005, 07:54 PM

They follow the bible ( different translation, w/e )... And I like them... They should be accepted into the body of christ.. Why not ?

TruthSetsYouFree

3rd December 2005, 08:25 PM

holo

3rd December 2005, 08:28 PM

I can't anwer why they don't have a forum here, but thankfully the body of Christ isn't a website :)

RichardT

3rd December 2005, 08:31 PM

They don't believe in the same Jesus that we do. :(

2 Corinthians 11:4, "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

Our Jesus is the son of God who was created before anything else (John 1). Their Jesus was the angel Michael, who came down to earth in a human body.

They are one of those 'deceiving religions' that appear 'good' on the surface, but in reality, their goal is to get people away from the true Jesus. :(

I visited the Jehova's witness site and I didn't see anything about the angel being Jesus... I searched Jesus , and they think he is what it says in the bible about him...

I think JW are really cool people for not celebrating pagan traditions aswell..

Lisa0315

3rd December 2005, 08:35 PM

I visited the Jehova's witness site and I didn't see anything about the angel being Jesus... I searched Jesus , and they think he is what it says in the bible about him...

I think JW are really cool people for not celebrating pagan traditions aswell..

Do not be deceived. They are wolves in sheeps clothing. They promote a "gospel" that preaches that only 144,000 will be saved. If this is so...oh, well, I think God's quota has been met a long time ago...

RichardT

3rd December 2005, 08:37 PM

holo

3rd December 2005, 08:37 PM

If you must judge people, judge them on how loving they are, not their doctrine.

TruthSetsYouFree

3rd December 2005, 08:38 PM

I visited the Jehova's witness site and I didn't see anything about the angel being Jesus... I searched Jesus , and they think he is what it says in the bible about him...

I think JW are really cool people for not celebrating pagan traditions aswell..

I bet you won't find much "interesting stuff" on their Web site at all. But it's certainly in their doctrine.

The same thing is true with Mormons... they wouldn't dare tell you that their Jesus is Satan's brother... but if you dig deeper into their doctrines, it's in there.

2 Corinthians 11:14, 15, "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

RichardT

3rd December 2005, 08:41 PM

whose end shall be according to their works.

Many religions say that you go to heaven through good works... heh.. I still dont see anything "wrong" with there religion...

I can point out much more wrong in catholic doctrine than in JW, for example ....

TruthSetsYouFree

3rd December 2005, 08:43 PM

Many religions say that you go to heaven through good works... heh.. I still dont see anything "wrong" with there religion...
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But true Christianity isn't one of them.

Lisa0315

3rd December 2005, 08:44 PM

really ? Can you point this out ? link ?

That's what they told me when they came to my door. It was before I became a Christian, so I almost told them I worshipped Satan just to see what they would do. I was afraid they would camp out in my yard!

I got into a similar conversation while pumping gas one day. They told me the same thing. If it is not JW doctrine, why have I heard this so often?

I will see if I can find a link. <shrug>

RichardT

3rd December 2005, 08:44 PM

But true Christianity isn't one of them.
I know... Do JW teach about good works ? im wondering..

Lisa0315

3rd December 2005, 08:49 PM

Here is the link as requested, and I pasted the doctrine below:

http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2000/10/1/article_02.htm

Why Some Do Go to Heaven

Many readers of the Bible, however, are aware of Jesus' words: "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. . . . I am going my way to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2, 3) Does this not contradict the idea of life everlasting on a paradise earth?

These teachings are not contradictory. In fact, one supports the other. To begin with, the Bible states that only a limited number of faithful Christians—namely, 144,000 of them—are raised as spirit creatures to live in heaven. Why are they given this wonderful reward? Because they make up the group that John saw in a vision who "came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 14:1, 3; 20:4-6) Compared with the billions on earth, the 144,000 truly are a "little flock." (Luke 12:32) Moreover, having experienced the problems common to humankind, like Jesus they will be able to "sympathize with our weaknesses" as they supervise the rehabilitation of mankind and of the earth.—Hebrews 4:15.

Earth—Mankind's Eternal Home

By providing the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God began gathering the 144,000 almost 2,000 years ago, and indications are that this group is now complete. (Acts 2:1-4; Galatians 4:4-7) However, Jesus' sacrifice was not for the sins of the 144,000 only, "but also for the whole world's." (1 John 2:2) Hence, all who exercise faith in Jesus have the prospect of eternal life. (John 3:16) Those asleep in the grave but who are in God's memory will be resurrected, not to heaven, but to life on a cleansed earth. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-13, 25; Acts 24:15) What will await them there?

RichardT

3rd December 2005, 08:53 PM

TruthSetsYouFree

3rd December 2005, 08:53 PM

Here's a Web site that shows you where the JW's believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers:

http://agapeacceptance.co.uk/bob/apol.htm

This if you ask me, is an EXTREME mockery of the true Jesus. :o

Lisa0315

3rd December 2005, 08:56 PM

Also , I dont think it's wrong to have this doctrine , they will try even harder to get into the kingdom of God then :P..

But seriously , they follow the bible... What else do they need to do to get saved ? They interpret certain things , so do I ... Can you tell me something that is extremely wrong with there religion ?

They do NOT follow the Bible and they are nearly cult like in their discipleship. It is really scary if you want to know the truth. Go to Watchtower.com. Just look around. You will see. They are not what they appear to be.

Lisa

TruthSetsYouFree

3rd December 2005, 08:58 PM

I know... Do JW teach about good works ? im wondering..

Yep, they certainly do!

This Web page will show you a lot of flaws in the JW beliefs, and where they are located in the JW doctrines:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm

Lisa0315

3rd December 2005, 09:08 PM

Yep, they certainly do!

This Web page will show you a lot of flaws in the JW beliefs, and where they are located in the JW doctrines:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm

Good Read. Thanks for the link!

Forest

3rd December 2005, 09:16 PM

RichardT

3rd December 2005, 09:29 PM

From their website they believe...

Christ is inferior to God.

Christ was created.

Christ was raised as an immortal spirit person.

The soul ceases to exist at death.

I believe these are all contrary to scripture, except perhaps their own translation which is different than most, if not all others.

I hate how we have to seperate ourselves from them... There's so much we can learn from there beliefs though....

I love how they dont celebrate pagan traditions.... It seems to me like they are more protestant than we are.....

TruthSetsYouFree

3rd December 2005, 09:38 PM

I love how they dont celebrate pagan traditions.... It seems to me like they are more protestant than we are.....

If us Christians invested as much into our 'religion' as they do, we would be light years ahead! But our God doesn't want us to invest time in our 'religion' because we have to... but because we want to... thus, Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with our heavenly Father. :)

RichardT

3rd December 2005, 09:40 PM

If us Christians invested as much into our 'religion' as they do, we would be light years ahead! But our God doesn't want us to invest time in our 'religion' because we have to... but because we want to... thus, Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with our heavenly Father. :)

ya , agreed completely... This is what I was trying to say in my "True Christianity" thread in the non-christian religion forum ...

Lisa0315

3rd December 2005, 09:40 PM

I hate how we have to seperate ourselves from them... There's so much we can learn from there beliefs though....

I love how they dont celebrate pagan traditions.... It seems to me like they are more protestant than we are.....

You have a good heart, but remember they are leading people away from Christ not to Him. This is the reason we are to oppose them. They are leading people to Hell with this doctrine. They don't believe in Christ's Resurrection for goodness sake. That is fundamental to Christianity. Without Christ's Resurrection, we have nothing to believe in, nothing to hope for. If Jesus did not rise again, He is not who He said He was.

I don't disagree about Halloween, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to the other things they are teaching.

TruthSetsYouFree

3rd December 2005, 09:50 PM

You have a good heart, but remember they are leading people away from Christ not to Him. This is the reason we are to oppose them. They are leading people to Hell with this doctrine. They don't believe in Christ's Resurrection for goodness sake. That is fundamental to Christianity. Without Christ's Resurrection, we have nothing to believe in, nothing to hope for. If Jesus did not rise again, He is not who He said He was.

I don't disagree about Halloween, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to the other things they are teaching.

Well said.

I saw somewhere in their doctrine that Christ is still 'dead' today... so their Jesus is dead, and he's a brother of Satan? I think it's pretty clear that they are speaking of 'another Jesus'. :o

RichardT

3rd December 2005, 09:55 PM

Lisa0315

3rd December 2005, 09:58 PM

Ok , I got it now ... Denying Jesus' reserection is enough to label them as non-christian...

Yes. That is exactly right. Christ's Ressurection is as essential to our salvation as His death on the cross. One without the other is incomplete.

Svt4Him

3rd December 2005, 10:06 PM

I hate how we have to seperate ourselves from them... There's so much we can learn from there beliefs though....

I love how they dont celebrate pagan traditions.... It seems to me like they are more protestant than we are.....

You seem bent on saying that because someone celebrates Christmas say, they are just as bad as someone who believes Jesus is one of many gods, and that is your personal conviction. It may be sin to you so don't do it.

JW believe in the begging was the word, and the word was a god, not God. JW's believe strongly in works. JW's believe that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. They also believe Jesus already came back in the late 1800's then it was revised to 1914 I believe. They may be the nicest, but God doesn't look at what we think of people when He determins whether someone goes to heaven. With Jesus there is live, and that Jesus is not an angel who became God's son, it's God Himself.

1. Source of Authority. JWs claim the Bible as their final authority, but Russell's writings, especially Studies in the Scriptures, are considered "the light of the Scriptures." JWs have their own translation of the Scriptures (New World Translation, published in 1961), which reflects the binding interpretations of the group's leaders. The JWs' New World Translation greatly perverts the Scriptures to avoid placing themselves under the judgment of God (cf. Jn. 1:1; 8:58; I Tim. 2:6; Ac. 10:36; Col. 1:16-17; 2:9-10; etc.). Hence, the leader's interpretation of the Bible, not the Bible itself, is the final authority of JWs. The Watchtower magazine is one of the JWs main sources of doctrine, and is considered authoritative by its members.

2. Trinity. JWs believe that God is not a triune God, but only "Jehovah God" (Let God Be True, pp. 100-101); they teach that Trinitarianism is a belief in three gods, and thereby, Satan-inspired polytheism. Rutherford wrote: "... sincere persons who want to know the true God and serve him find it a bit difficult to love and worship a complicated, freakish-looking, three-headed God. The clergy who inject such ideas will contradict themselves in the very next breath by stating that God made man in his own image; for certainly no one has ever seen a three-headed human creature" (Let God Be True, 2nd ed., pp. 101-102). 3. God the Father. Known as Jehovah, the Watchtower considers Him to be the only true eternal God, the Almighty. They write, "There was, therefore, a time when Jehovah was all alone in universal space" (Let God Be True, p. 25). Being alone, the first creative act of Jehovah was to create His Son.

4. Jesus Christ. Since JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. They add the word "other" four times to Colossians 1:16,17, teaching that Christ was God's first creation, i.e., the reincarnation of Michael the archangel created by Jehovah, rather than the Creator. [The "Watchtower" teaches that Jehovah God created Michael the Archangel before the foundation of the world; Michael was His only begotten son by virtue of the fact that he was the only creature directly created by Jehovah. It was this created Michael who became the JW Jesus (i.e., a denial of the eternality of Christ). JWs say that "Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum or egg in Mary's womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transfer of the life of his first born son (Michael) from the spirit realm to the earth" (Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 920). "Marvelously, Jehovah transferred the life-force and the personality pattern of his first born heavenly son (Michael) to the womb of Mary. God's own active force, his holy spirit, safeguarded the development of the child in Mary's womb so that what was born was a perfect human" (Reasoning, p. 255).] JWs also add an "a" in John 1:1, making the verse read, "the Word was a god" (which in essence, makes the JWs guilty of the same polytheism of which they accuse Trinitarians).

5. Use of Name Jehovah. JWs use the name "Jehovah" only for God (in order to distinguish between God and Jesus Christ), while failing to recognize that Jesus is the fulfillment of "Jehovah" in Isaiah 40:3 and Matthew 3:3. [HJB]

6. Resurrection of Christ . JWs deny the bodily resurrection of Christ through their teaching that the body of Christ was annihilated by God -- not risen -- but rather a new one was created three days after His death. This they call the "resurrection" of Christ. Thus, Jesus was "resurrected" as a "glorious spirit creature" and does not now have a glorified physical body. Instead, they claim Jesus arose spiritually and only "materialized" at various times after His resurrection so He could be seen alive. (Awake!, 7/22/73, p. 4)

7. The Holy Spirit. JWs deny the deity of the third person of the Trinity, as either God or as a person; they claim that the Holy Spirit is only an impersonal "active force of Almighty God which moves His servants to do His will" (Reasoning From the Scriptures, pp. 406-407; The Watchtower, 6/1/54, p. 24). They have written, "But the holy spirit has no personal name. The reason for this is that the holy spirit is not an intelligent person. It is the impersonal, invisible active force that finds its source and reservoir in Jehovah God and that he uses to accomplish his will even at great distances, over light years of space" (Let Your Name Be Sanctified, p. 269).

8. Sin. JWs believe that the first man, Adam, disobeyed Jehovah when tempted by the angel Lucifer, who was jealous of man. As a result of disobedience, Adam and all his descendants lost the right to life and so became liable to death. This liability is applied to temporal death only. 9. Salvation . JWs claim everlasting life is a reward for doing the will of God and carrying out one's dedication -- in other words, salvation is a reward for good works. (JWs are expected to spend five hours per week in door-to-door visitation and witnessing, are responsible for selling twelve subscriptions to The Watchtower magazine each month, and are responsible for conducting a "Bible study" each month in the homes of their converts.) According to JW theology, a person has one of three possible destinies. The Anointed (144,000) will be in heaven to reign with Jehovah God. The rest of the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (not of the 144,000) will live forever on a paradise Earth. Both of these classifications are determined to a great extent on membership in the Watchtower organization as well as going door-to-door spreading the message of the Watchtower. Those people who are not members of the Watchtower organization will be destroyed by Jehovah God and cease to exist. There is no concept of eternal punishment or hell in Watchtower theology (Let God Be True, pp. 90-95, 289). They also believe that men will have a second chance, after death, to be saved.

10. The Body of Christ. JWs believe that the members of the spiritual Body of Christ, or "Christian Congregation," number only 144,000 (Rev. 7:4-8). Most of those members of Christ's Body are now deceased and are reigning with Jesus in heaven since 1918. (Anybody born after 1936 cannot be in that number.) The remaining members still on earth, approximately 8,000 (out of whom are selected the "Governing Body"), are known as the "Remnant." They are collectively known as Jehovah God's "channel of communication" to men. They are the only ones "born again" and are the only ones who have a hope of going to Heaven. The rest of Jehovah's faithful witnesses only hope to be worthy enough to inherit the Earth, and will never see "Jesus/Michael," nor will they ever go to Heaven. All "so called Christendom" will be destroyed at Armageddon.

11. Soul Sleep. JWs deny the immortality of the soul. They do not believe the soul can exist apart from the body, but that a corpse remains in an unconscious state in the grave waiting for the resurrection. [HJB]

12. Annihilation of the Wicked. JWs teach that the "second death" is annihilation and extinction -- the wicked will cease to exist and will not suffer everlasting torment. They claim that a "doctrine of a burning hell" is "wholly unscriptural," "unreasonable," "contrary to God's love," and "repugnant to justice." [HJB] They claim that "hell" is the grave.

13. Prophecy . The Bible lists six identifying marks of false prophets, any one of which is sufficient for identification: (1) through signs and wonders they lead astray after false gods (Dt. 13:1-4); (2) their prophecies don't come to pass (Dt. 18:20-22); (3) they contradict God's Word (Isa. 8:20); (4) they bear bad fruit (Mt. 7:18-20); (5) men speak well of them (Lk. 6:26); and (6) they deny that Jesus, the one and only Christ, has come once and for all in the flesh (1 Jn. 4:3), thereby denying His sufficiency in all matters of life and godliness (2 Pe. 1:3). Most cults are founded upon false prophecies, which, if pointed out, offer an effective way to open blind eyes and rescue cultists. Russell's false prophecies formed the basis for what became The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and the Jehovah's Witnesses. Russell declared that the Second Coming had taken place invisibly in October 1874, and the Lord was truly present, and that in 1914 the faithful (the 144,000) would be translated to heaven and the wicked destroyed. Armageddon (which began in 1874) would culminate in 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's rulers and the end of the world. C.T. Russell, still on earth, died in 1916.

In the early 1920s, JWs zealously distributed on the streets and from door to door a book titled Millions Now Living Will Never Die. It was prophesied, "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914 ... we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old ... to the condition of human perfection" ("Millions Now Living Will Never Die," The Watchtower, 7/15/24, p. 89). The JWs even built a house in San Diego where the patriarchs were to live and tried to deed it to King David. (The house was quietly sold in 1954.) In the early 1940s, JWs were declaring that Armageddon, only months away, would end World War II and the defeat of the Nazis would usher in God's rule on earth (The Watchtower, 12/41). Their book, Children, suggested that plans to marry and have children be postponed until after Armageddon. It's been a long wait! Not giving up, they later prophesied that God's millennial kingdom would commence in 1975. Again JWs were told not to engage in any plans for this world, including marriage and having children. Many quit their jobs, sold their homes, and dedicated themselves to going door to door. (Source: 3/97, The Berean Call.) All in all, the Watchtower has predicted the end of the world for 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, and 1989.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm

calidog

3rd December 2005, 11:01 PM

calidog

3rd December 2005, 11:15 PM

Also , I dont think it's wrong to have this doctrine , they will try even harder to get into the kingdom of God then :P..

But seriously , they follow the bible... What else do they need to do to get saved ? They interpret certain things , so do I ... Can you tell me something that is extremely wrong with there religion ?The bible says if you confess by mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Jesus said you will know them (saved) by their fruits. He said that if we love Him (believe He is Lord) we will follow His commands.

Many JW's don't realize they're being duped, but the teachers and leaders are on a slippery slope.

calidog

3rd December 2005, 11:22 PM

From their website they believe...

Christ is inferior to God.

Christ was created.

Christ was raised as an immortal spirit person.

The soul ceases to exist at death.

I believe these are all contrary to scripture, except perhaps their own translation which is different than most, if not all others.they are ALL contradictory to the bible
Book of Revelation warns about changing scripture.

calidog

3rd December 2005, 11:26 PM

If us Christians invested as much into our 'religion' as they do, we would be light years ahead! But our God doesn't want us to invest time in our 'religion' because we have to... but because we want to... thus, Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with our heavenly Father. :)we can though by thoroughly reading and studying scripture

TruthSetsYouFree

3rd December 2005, 11:33 PM

we can though by thoroughly reading and studying scripture

Yes, I agree!

I was just saying that often you see the JW's walking around hitting the streets to witness their faith... they spend a lot of time for their religion... it's sad many Christians just goto church once a week and think they are cool. :sigh:

lees68

3rd December 2005, 11:41 PM

I visited the Jehova's witness site and I didn't see anything about the angel being Jesus... I searched Jesus , and they think he is what it says in the bible about him...

I think JW are really cool people for not celebrating pagan traditions aswell..

I was once a Jehovah's Witness and it is completely true, they teach Michael = Jesus. Most have really good motives however there is quite a lot of what they teach that cannot be proven biblically...such as baptism as a Jehovah's Witness is essential for salvation...but I think the biggest problem is that they are so works based that your entire walk with God is driven out of fear instead of a deep love for Him.

Ssm117

4th December 2005, 01:14 AM

Jehovah's witness are not Christians.....they don't even trust Christ for their salvation, and they are very works based. They take away from His deity and call him an angel. Their bible is also a wrong translation that was translated in the late 1800's!

Svt4Him

4th December 2005, 04:54 AM

As a side note, and a credit to their organization, I once mailed the HQ in Canada to request a copy of an article from 1924. I asked it to be sent to a PO box on the other side of the country. A few months later, a JW showed up at my house, although he was surprised I wasn't a JW. When he came back, there were three of them.

They also wouldn't open the meeting in prayer with me. I am an apostate, as I have studied about their religion and still don't agree with it.

NacDan

4th December 2005, 10:36 AM

really ? Can you point this out ? link ?

http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm

Find out everything you ever wanted to know about Jehovah's Witnesses.

Danny

hintonas

4th December 2005, 06:28 PM

See that is the problem so many people are worried about doctrine and denomination that they are really missing the point. Christ is the focal point not what group you belong too.

RichardT

4th December 2005, 07:00 PM

See that is the problem so many people are worried about doctrine and denomination that they are really missing the point. Christ is the focal point not what group you belong too.

But these cults are sending people to hell...

Lisa0315

4th December 2005, 09:11 PM

See that is the problem so many people are worried about doctrine and denomination that they are really missing the point. Christ is the focal point not what group you belong too.

It is not about denomination, but it is certainly about doctrine. There are core teachings that are essential to Christianity and salvation. Christ's deity and resurrection are two of them. JW's do not believe either.

SpokenFor2005

4th December 2005, 09:30 PM

It doesn't have everything to do with their doctrine alone... JWs also practice shunning, should any of their congregation so much as question doctrine or the word of the Watchtower organization.

If a member leaves the organization, their family and friends are NOT to be in contact with them for fear of the same treatment.

They are also not permitted to even *read* anything regarding any other religion, or even parts of their own Bible unless expressly directed to read that chapter/verse.

If you read a little deeper, you'll find the false prophecies as well. There are many occasions where the organization predicted the "end times" as certain dates (which also directly goes against our Bible -- Jesus said that only the Father knows).

A very good site to learn more is www.towerwatch.com (http://www.towerwatch.com/) ... these are former JWs, most of which are now Christians. :amen:

WesWoodell

5th December 2005, 12:38 AM

See that is the problem so many people are worried about doctrine and denomination that they are really missing the point. Christ is the focal point not what group you belong too.

Jehovah's Witness doctrine says that Jesus Christ is not Lord. To assume that its alright for a group to say "Jesus isn't really God" is ridiculous. I'm thinking you didn't realize that the JWs teach that (which should tell you to examine the doctrine of those teaching you closely - including that of your own fellowship).

Doctrine is very important. Look:

1 Timothy 4:16
16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
(NIV)

2 Timothy 4:3
3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
(NIV)

Titus 1:9
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
(NIV)

Titus 2:1
1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
(NIV)

holo

5th December 2005, 04:14 AM

In any case, focusing on faulty doctrine won't help much. I've never heard of a JW changing their mind after discussion, so that's not a good way to go.

Love, however, will change the world.

Be they friends or enemies, they are to be loved. Welcome them, treat them good, bless them. To bless means something like "speak well about" - praise them, even if they're not there, look for the good in them, let love cover a multitude of sins.

I know I was never saved because of my or other's doctrine or (dis)agreement over such. The only thing that attracts me to christians in the first place, is love, and it's the lack of love that makes me avoid them as well.

Love has made me change my mind about a lot of things, including my own personal doctrines.

If you're going to try to convert a JW, be sure to have a brand new welcoming family for them, because they'll be losing the one they've got. And I can guarantee you, no amount of doctrinal correctness will make up for that.

If you want them to drop their doctrine, drop your own.

winglovesall

5th December 2005, 04:23 AM

Sorry to oppose Jehovah Witnesses or anything - but I just dislike them.

However, There is a Jehovah Witness Forum - and yeah, there's a lot of JW around in Australia, USA and anywhere in the world.

www.jwforum.com (http://www.jwforum.com/) is one of their sites - according to SpiritualGirl on CF , who checked it out for fun!

Col

5th December 2005, 10:39 AM

Christianity is based on the belief that Jesus was the Christ (the Messiah) and God incarnate. As Christians, we have faith that Jesus came, walked among us and died for us and that we may have a personal relationship with God. "I am the way the truth and the life".

JWs believe Jesus was just a man, so by their own beliefs, JWs are openly stating they are not Christians.

Without a Christ, their is no Christianity. We Christians have faith their was one, JWs do not. Its pretty simple really "Christianity 101" so to speak.

If God can move mountains, I believe He can also move those hearts and minds to see the truth. In the meantime we should all continue to be the best ambassadors for Christ that we can be, and continue pray that those who do not yet know Him, will come to know the freedom that is in Christ.

CyberPaladin

5th December 2005, 11:58 AM

Based on what I learned about Jehovah in Bible study in which we looked them Mormons, and several cults, the Jehovah Witness don't worship the true Jesus. Any group can believe loving and being kind to others and calling there god Jesus but it takes more to be a true Christian.

Rut

5th December 2005, 12:38 PM

Imblessed

5th December 2005, 12:51 PM

My in-laws became JW's about 6 or 7 years ago. They were previously agnostic. At the time, my husband and I were not going to church and I didn't have a good handle on my owns beliefs, so I was not able to dissuade them. Sadly, I didn't even try, because I honestly believed at the time that they were christians, albeit odd ones....

After I started going back to church, I got real interested in the JW religion, having had a few conversations with my in-laws and seeing how they were acting. Frankly I was a little worried, because they place a whole lot of emphesis on "work" and not much at all on the saving grace of Jesus. They actually didn't talk about Jesus hardly at all, except to use him as an example of a "perfect man". Which is all he is to them. A good example. As long as you accept that He was real, and you worship with the JW's, become baptised as a JW, you can have the opportunity to live forever on the earth(fixing it back up the way it was). Anyone who doesn't, and who rejects the JW religion at armegeddon, will be destroyed. I guess they "claim" it's possible to not be a JW at the time of armegeddon and still be saved(if you convert) but if you look at the way they describe the end times, there is actually no real opportunity--so in reality, if you are not a JW when the end comes, you are out of luck.

They do not, in ANY sense, hold to the essential truth of Grace, and do NOT believe that one is saved by believing that Jesus died for them and took their sins on the cross. In fact, according to them, Jesus only died for the sins of the 144,000 'annointed' ones, and they rest are saved ONLY by their association with the JW organization and by their works and "faith" that God(er, Jehovah) will reward them for their good deeds and association.

I've done a lot of research and talked to alot of JW's(I personally tried to stay away from many of the anti-JW websites because of the hate that is so evident in some of them).

I've relunctantly come to the conclusion that while there may be some saved individuals in the JW religion, as a whole, it is a religion that leads people away from the truth of God.

I pray for my in-laws everyday, that they will see the errors within that religion and that God will open their eyes to the simplicity that is a true faith in Jesus, and His work on the cross.

holo

5th December 2005, 12:52 PM

What take to be a true Christian?;)Good question. I know one thing it doesn't take - correct doctrine.

God doesn't have "christians", much less "true christians" and "false christians".
He has children.

Unless you are your mother's child because you have the right doctrine, don't expect God to sort us out based on doctrine either.

Imblessed

5th December 2005, 01:06 PM

Good question. I know one thing it doesn't take - correct doctrine.

God doesn't have "christians", much less "true christians" and "false christians".
He has children.

Unless you are your mother's child because you have the right doctrine, don't expect God to sort us out based on doctrine either.

Holo, I love reading your posts, and am often in agreement with you on many things.

However, I can only agree partway on this view of yours. While I believe that "correct" doctrine is certainly secondary....there comes a time when incorrect doctrine will, in fact, show who is a true christian and who is not.

Does not Jesus himself say that there will come a time when many say "but Lord did I not do all these things in your name, and Jesus will say, I NEVER knew you" ?

The very fact that these people place their own Association and rules as absolutely necessary to being a christian, shows that they have fallen severely away from the true meaning of being a christian. I can assure you, that while you may love them for their actions and believe that they are still christian, they DO NOT hold the same feelings for you.

It's all well and good to say that there will be christians across the whole scope of "religiosity" and that we should love even those who hold beliefs differently than ourselves; but it is not "love" to blindly accept them as christian when their doctrines run so completely contrary to biblical truth.

A good person does not a christian make.

In sisterly love,

windi

CyberPaladin

5th December 2005, 01:42 PM

Imblessed I agree with you completely. I do believe in some what wide road to heaven that people form a wide variety of churchs will make it in. I also believe that some are lead a stray and just because somone calls there orgization a church and themselves christian doesn't make it so, just like you could also go to a church your entire life call your self a christian never accept the Jesus as your savior and therefore end up in hell.

ChrisinMI

5th December 2005, 04:11 PM

I visited the Jehova's witness site and I didn't see anything about the angel being Jesus... I searched Jesus , and they think he is what it says in the bible about him...

I think JW are really cool people for not celebrating pagan traditions aswell..

If they DO believe in the same Jesus...Why do the NOT celebrate Christmas or Easter? Celebrating his life and resurrection??? That is the basis of our Christian belief!

Rut

5th December 2005, 04:46 PM

If they DO believe in the same Jesus...Why do the NOT celebrate Christmas or Easter? Celebrating his life and resurrection??? That is the basis of our Christian belief!

They celebrate Easter They follow the Jews calender when it`s about that.The Jews celebrate theirs Easter if you can call that 14 Nisan.They celebrate when they go out from Egypt.They celebrate that because Jesus was doing that - remember the last supper

Rut

5th December 2005, 04:49 PM

They don`t celebrate jesus birth because they say it`s not in December.When people celebrate birthdays in the Bible always some people that believed in God died for example John Baptise Hows birthday was celebrated Some that didn`t believed in the bibles God.They say that they only thing jesus said that we shall celebrate is his death

WesWoodell

5th December 2005, 06:26 PM

I've never heard of a JW changing their mind after discussion, so that's not a good way to go.

Then you haven't heard much.

Many JWs have changed

"What does it take to be a Christian?" Good question. I know one thing it doesn't take - correct doctrine.

Are you saying that you don't have to believe in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus to be a Christian? You don't have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

Is that what you're saying?

Antoinette.Marie

5th December 2005, 07:10 PM

I've had JW's come to my parent's house when I was still living there trying to peddle me the Watchtower. My dad didn't like them there, because they asked for me by name (I think I told them my name when they first came by. Bad mistake) and when my dad said I wasn't home, they WAITED FOR ME until I got home. Scary.

SpokenFor2005

5th December 2005, 10:13 PM

They celebrate Easter They follow the Jews calender when it`s about that.The Jews celebrate theirs Easter if you can call that 14 Nisan.They celebrate when they go out from Egypt.They celebrate that because Jesus was doing that - remember the last supper

Begging your pardon, but JWs do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus. They do not celebrate Easter and have no reason to celebrate the birth of Jesus since Jesus is not God.

I believe you're referring to their annual communion supper, which is celebrating Passover, not Easter. They don't do it because Jesus did it, they do it because the Hebrews did.

One comment -- all of this is not to say that we shouldn't show love to JWs personally.. my beef is with the organization that they unknowingly worship. I work very closely with an active JW and she is a person that is most dedicated and sincere in her beliefs. She was born into a JW family over forty years ago. These people are, as a rule, extremely well-trained in what they've been taught -- and they should, being required to attend five meetings per week.

Holo's right -- unless you're prepared to offer a JW a new family, be aware of what you're getting into, IF you're so inclined and trained well enough to witness to one. A well-trained JW can scripturally tear the majority of Biblically well-read Christians to pieces within two minutes unless you know exactly what you're dealing with and what arguments they're going to throw your way. And, the chapters and verses that the organization has changed to suit their purposes.

And should you be successful, someone needs to be there for them. No one else who loves them, will be. It is keeping its members in line through fear of disfellowshiping and this more than anything else, I believe defines the organization as a cult.

I've never seen any "hate" JW sites... only a few for support of former members... they need all the love and support they can get, so I'm glad they're out there. Fortunately I've never visited an anti-JW site and don't want to.

One other thing... you most likely wouldn't find many JWs here even if a Christian forum was opened... they are not to fellowship with non-JWs. :(

holo

6th December 2005, 08:08 AM

Then you haven't heard much.

Many JWs have changed I'll have to take your word for it. It's just that personally I pretty much never see people change their minds through discussion, but rather harden their hearts toward each other. I see it in church, the media, and here on CF.

I've also seen love in action, and that tends to produce much better results.

Are you saying that you don't have to believe in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus to be a Christian? You don't have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

Is that what you're saying?I'm not telling anybody what to believe.
But I do know that the thief on the cross was saved, I know that the bleeding woman was healed - she apparently thought Jesus was some kind of healer. I know the blind man got his sight, and that was all he knew. I know Lazarus was raised. I've met people who came to faith because they met Jesus in a dream, without having a clue what about how He lived, died and rose, I know Paul clarified the unknown God they worshiped, I know I am saved even though I have no clue or teaching on the trinity, I know I am His child even though I don't even care whether or not the JDS stuff is true.

It takes many things to be a "christian", just think of that word for a second and see how many expectations you get to stuff like language and lifestyle. But to be a child of God, I believe it's easy. He will not cast away those who come to Him.

Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.

I'm not going to define grace, I'm going to live it and share it. I'm not going to put creeds on my faith, I'm going to practice it. It's not my business to find the correct doctrine (1 in about 342387661723342), but rather to love people. It's not my job to reveal truth, that's for the Spirit. I will testify of what I've seen and experienced, and I've never once experienced a doctrine.

CrazyforYeshua

6th December 2005, 09:55 AM

Imblessed

6th December 2005, 10:40 AM

Holo's right -- unless you're prepared to offer a JW a new family, be aware of what you're getting into, IF you're so inclined and trained well enough to witness to one. A well-trained JW can scripturally tear the majority of Biblically well-read Christians to pieces within two minutes unless you know exactly what you're dealing with and what arguments they're going to throw your way. And, the chapters and verses that the organization has changed to suit their purposes.

And should you be successful, someone needs to be there for them. No one else who loves them, will be. It is keeping its members in line through fear of disfellowshiping and this more than anything else, I believe defines the organization as a cult.

Certainly true! 1) A JW can scripturally mangle an unread christian---part of the reason that so many are taken in by them. It's truly impressive how well they know their stuff

2) Sadly I think that's part of the reason so many stay IN the organization, because to leave is to leave everything behind. My in-laws have NO friends outside the JW "circle". They have alienated everyone else, everyone they used to call friends. They HAVE, however, stayed in contact with us and my sister-in-law, despite the fact that we have rejected the religion all together and they know their is no hope of us converting. I know that this displeases their elders, but the "new" rule is that unless your family were JW and are not anymore, you can still have contact. I think the only reason we still are in contact is that we do not discuss their religion. Should we try to change them, they would start shunning us. As long as we stay away from that topic, all is well.
They have "good" friends in their church(they dont' like to call it church). I put parenthesis around good because if they were to reject the religion, their friends would abandon them, but while they are good JW's, their friends are steadfast, and they all help each other out, they are supportive, they do things together. It's something that my in-laws have never experienced before in people. They have always felt a strong need to "belong", and this offers them that opportunity. It's undeniably appealing to belong to such a strongly internal group, one that offers sanctuary against the big mean world, one who claims the ultimate truth, and outwardly at least, certainly has "fruit", and the idea that as long as one does all the right things, one can escape destruction is vastly appealing to many people.

Seeing as how I have family that are JW, I figured I'd tell what I "see" in that organization. I see a group of people who are earnest, but being misled, and an organization that is very "pretty" on the outside, but has a lot of skeletons in their closet. I also see an organization that has changed doctrine to suit their needs, not just changed, but flip-flopped. And one that has made several predictions about the endtimes--predictions close enough to label them as false prophets.

Rut

6th December 2005, 12:20 PM

Actually, it's the Mormon religion that believes Jesus and Satan were brothers, not the Jehovah Witness religion.
The reason JW's go door to door, is for their works, either 80 or 100 hours a month, depending on where you're at in the Kingdom. My Bible doesn't say I have to do that to be saved, my works won't help me.

That aren`t true about how many hours the most go in the work as you call it the month.You can go 1 hour if you want or 10 hour all are up to you:) They how go so many hours as you say the missioners or pioneers and that is not
depending of where you are in the Kingdom either.They go to door to door because that was the first Christian did and because of Matthew 28:19 - 20

Rut

6th December 2005, 12:40 PM

Begging your pardon, but JWs do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus. They do not celebrate Easter and have no reason to celebrate the birth of Jesus since Jesus is not God.

They believe that Jesus is God but not the Almighty God;)

fwiwwl

6th December 2005, 03:13 PM

I'll have to take your word for it. It's just that personally I pretty much never see people change their minds through discussion, but rather harden their hearts toward each other. I see it in church, the media, and here on CF.

I've also seen love in action, and that tends to produce much better results.

I'm not telling anybody what to believe.
But I do know that the thief on the cross was saved, I know that the bleeding woman was healed - she apparently thought Jesus was some kind of healer. I know the blind man got his sight, and that was all he knew. I know Lazarus was raised. I've met people who came to faith because they met Jesus in a dream, without having a clue what about how He lived, died and rose, I know Paul clarified the unknown God they worshiped, I know I am saved even though I have no clue or teaching on the trinity, I know I am His child even though I don't even care whether or not the JDS stuff is true.

It takes many things to be a "christian", just think of that word for a second and see how many expectations you get to stuff like language and lifestyle. But to be a child of God, I believe it's easy. He will not cast away those who come to Him.

Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.

I'm not going to define grace, I'm going to live it and share it. I'm not going to put creeds on my faith, I'm going to practice it. It's not my business to find the correct doctrine (1 in about 342387661723342), but rather to love people. It's not my job to reveal truth, that's for the Spirit. I will testify of what I've seen and experienced, and I've never once experienced a doctrine.

I have been reading your posts for quite some time and I don't believe that the Spirit working through you hasn't touched hungry hearts!

I believe it is your job to reveal truths the Holy Spirit gives you! To me that is "fellowship" It seems that word now means b.s.ing about sports and fishing. Holo, I know you share the truth! I've been reading it!

That is absolute truth! Tell me again your not revealing truths that God has given you!

Followers4christ

6th December 2005, 04:09 PM

I visited the Jehova's witness site and I didn't see anything about the angel being Jesus... I searched Jesus , and they think he is what it says in the bible about him...

I think JW are really cool people for not celebrating pagan traditions aswell..

The JW has a book its name is "what dose the bible really teach".In thier book it says in 4:12 that Jesus was Created that Jesus had a beginning.But the bible says that Jesus has no beginning or end so he could'nt had been created (John 1:2,Revelation 22:13,Revelation 21:6).Also in the JW's book it says that michael is actually Jesus in 9:4.But the bible says that michael is a archangel not Jesus Christ (Jude 1:9).Also in thier book it says in the back of the book the bottom of page 207 it says that the faithful christians are the 144,000.But the bible says in Revelation 7:4 "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

The Jesus the JW praise is a Different Jesus,they believe Jesus is Michael,so their praising Michael Not the true Jesus Christ.God Bless :preach:

2 Corinthians 11:4 "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."

SteelDisciple

6th December 2005, 05:30 PM

I've studied alot into JW and Mormonism....there are a lot of dark teaches in their book...blasphemy. It's basically a cult...a dangerous one at that. (spiritually anyway)

holo

6th December 2005, 07:02 PM

[Holo, I know you share the truth! I've been reading it!Wow, thanks.

That's heartwarming. I'm struggling with a good old depression again these days, and I feel mostly useless, and kind of hypocritical, since I no longer feel this love I'm talking so kindly about. But I know it's there, and that if it's not real, everything is hopeless.

In times of need, we learn to stick with what matters, I guess. I don't have the strength to argue and fight anymore, and it breaks my already broken heart to see people letting doctrine divide them when love is supposed to unite them. I wish I had more of that love myself.

But I've tasted it, I've handled it and I've had it in me, and I want nothing more than to get it back. I long to love, even if it hurts. I miss love. I love love. I'm helpless without it, useless, pointless. I guess that's why I'm depressed again. The love disappeared, and I don't really know why. All I have left is opinion and courtesy and a tiny bit of self-discipline.

I hope it comes back to me. I will fight for it until I die.

casting989

6th December 2005, 09:12 PM

Here's a Web site that shows you where the JW's believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers:

http://agapeacceptance.co.uk/bob/apol.htm

That is old material and they no longer teach that. Of course technically, I bet they would not say it were incorrect to say they are 'brothers' since they say God created Jesus, his Son and Satan - Satan previously a good angel who rebelled against God.

I believe you're referring to their annual communion supper, which is celebrating Passover, not Easter. They don't do it because Jesus did it, they do it because the Hebrews did.

That's not true. They commemorate Jesus' death BECAUSE they believe Jesus commanded us to do stated in Corinthians and the Gospel accounts (1 Cor. 11:23-26, Luke 22:19). They do it because Jesus did so and commanded that we continue doing so in remembrance of Him not because the Hebrews did so.

Lisa0315

6th December 2005, 09:46 PM

That is old material and they no longer teach that. Of course technically, I bet they would not say it were incorrect to say they are 'brothers' since they say God created Jesus, his Son and Satan - Satan previously a good angel who rebelled against God.

That's not true. They commemorate Jesus' death BECAUSE they believe Jesus commanded us to do stated in Corinthians and the Gospel accounts (1 Cor. 11:23-26, Luke 22:19). They do it because Jesus did so and commanded that we continue doing so in remembrance of Him not because the Hebrews did so.

We have all cited sources. Can you please cite a source for what the JW's celebrate and why?

Lisa

casting989

6th December 2005, 10:15 PM

We have all cited sources. Can you please cite a source for what the JW's celebrate and why?

Lisa

I was raised as one. I know. I have the books to prove it. It's dangerous to cite sites unless they are the organization's own web sites because people have bad information or they are showing old material. Not to say the old material shouldn't be referenced to, but don't protray it as current doctrine.

Here are some cited quotations from their recent plublications.

The Greatest Man Whoever Lived
Page 115: "When each has eaten of the bread, Jesus takes a cup of wine, evidently the fourth cup used in the Passover service. He also says a prayer of thanks over it, passes it to them, asks them to drink it, and states: 'This cup means the new convenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.' So this is, in fact, a memorial of Jesus' death. Each year on Nisan 14, it is to be repeated, as Jesus says, in remembrance of him."

Reasoning from the Scriptures
Page 266: "Definition: A meal commemorating the death of Jesus Christ; hence, a memorial of his death, the death that has had effects that are more far reaching than that of any other person. This is the only event that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to memorialize. It is also known as the Lord's Supper, or the Lord's Evening Meal."

Lisa0315

6th December 2005, 10:22 PM

I was raised as one. I know. I have the books to prove it. It's dangerous to cite sites unless they are the organization's own web sites because people have bad information or they are showing old material. Not to say the old material shouldn't be referenced to, but don't protray it as current doctrine.

Here are some cited quotations from their recent plublications.

The Greatest Man Whoever Lived
Page 115: "When each has eaten of the bread, Jesus takes a cup of wine, evidently the fourth cup used in the Passover service. He also says a prayer of thanks over it, passes it to them, asks them to drink it, and states: 'This cup means the new convenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.' So this is, in fact, a memorial of Jesus' death. Each year on Nisan 14, it is to be repeated, as Jesus says, in remembrance of him."

Reasoning from the Scriptures
Page 266: "Definition: A meal commemorating the death of Jesus Christ; hence, a memorial of his death, the death that has had effects that are more far reaching than that of any other person. This is the only event that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to memorialize. It is also known as the Lord's Supper, or the Lord's Evening Meal."

Thank you. Do you consider watchtower.org a reasonable source?

casting989

6th December 2005, 10:28 PM

Thank you. Do you consider watchtower.org a reasonable source?

Oh, definitely. It's the only dependable source I think though it is lacking (I haven't figured out why they haven't put more up there...maybe not enough space and too cheap ;). Not to say other sources give incorrect information but with JW's bad rep, I think it's dangerous to put 100% faith in any material that is not from any of their publications or their own web site, www.watchtower.org. Their other site, directed towards those in the organization, has a bit more info though: http://www.jw-media.org/ The FAQ on that web site is actually very informative on what they believe they are teaching even if many disagree.

Lisa0315

6th December 2005, 10:46 PM

Oh, definitely. It's the only dependable source I think though it is lacking (I haven't figured out why they haven't put more up there...maybe not enough space and too cheap ;). Not to say other sources give incorrect information but with JW's bad rep, I think it's dangerous to put 100% faith in any material that is not from any of their publications or their own web site, www.watchtower.org (http://www.watchtower.org/). Their other site, directed towards those in the organization, has a bit more info though: http://www.jw-media.org/ The FAQ on that web site is actually very informative on what they believe they are teaching even if many disagree.

Are you still JW? Are your parents?

casting989

6th December 2005, 11:08 PM

Are you still JW? Are your parents?

No and made the final decision this summer to become a Christian. My parents are though.

Lisa0315

6th December 2005, 11:14 PM

No and made the final decision this summer to become a Christian. My parents are though.

Wow! I know that was hard for you.

SpokenFor2005

7th December 2005, 12:49 AM

They believe that Jesus is God but not the Almighty God;)

They believe he is "a God"... which is a very important distinction to those wondering what the heck we're talking about. I think we're on the same page. :thumbsup:

heyder

7th December 2005, 12:56 AM

I'm resisting the urge to blurt out something that I later decided would have been rude but I'll put it this way. I don't believe too many JW's would be interested in having their faith put in front of this group and dealing with the challanges to their doctrine we would give them.

Rut

7th December 2005, 03:19 AM

They believe he is "a God"... which is a very important distinction to those wondering what the heck we're talking about. I think we're on the same page. :thumbsup:

Yes we are:thumbsup: ;)

Pudlmom

7th December 2005, 01:45 PM

Because they are not Christians and they absolutely do not follow the Bible.

NRG

7th December 2005, 01:59 PM

[QUOTE=Lisa0315]You have a good heart, but remember they are leading people away from Christ not to Him. This is the reason we are to oppose them. They are leading people to Hell with this doctrine. They don't believe in Christ's Resurrection for goodness sake. That is fundamental to Christianity. Without Christ's Resurrection, we have nothing to believe in, nothing to hope for. If Jesus did not rise again, He is not who He said He was.

JWs are like mormans and believe some of what is true and dont believe others but as Lisa0315 said JWs are leading people away from God not to him :sigh: which we should be doing with non-christians

SteelDisciple

7th December 2005, 05:11 PM

That is old material and they no longer teach that. Of course technically, I bet they would not say it were incorrect to say they are 'brothers' since they say God created Jesus, his Son and Satan - Satan previously a good angel who rebelled against God.

That's not true. They commemorate Jesus' death BECAUSE they believe Jesus commanded us to do stated in Corinthians and the Gospel accounts (1 Cor. 11:23-26, Luke 22:19). They do it because Jesus did so and commanded that we continue doing so in remembrance of Him not because the Hebrews did so.

God's Truth is constant. It never changes. TRUTH remains the same. The fact that the JW have changed their teachings sooo many times over the years should be proof to even the most brainwashed person that the JW are NOT true.

Athanasian Creed

7th December 2005, 05:31 PM

They don't believe in the same Jesus that we do. :(

2 Corinthians 11:4, "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

Our Jesus is the son of God who was created before anything else (John 1)...

Say what?? From where in Scripture does it say that Jesus was CREATED.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus, the Word, was with God in the beginning and WAS (IS) God. The second verse says ALL things were created by Christ. If He was created, did He create Himself??! NO, He, in fact, is the uncreated God, who existed from all eternity and is the Creator of all things.;)

I hope what you posted was a typo 'cos it ain't Biblical what you said - it is, in fact, heresy (and i'm suprised no one else caught it!):(

Ray :wave:

Athanasian Creed

7th December 2005, 05:36 PM

Do not be deceived. They are wolves in sheeps clothing. They promote a "gospel" that preaches that only 144,000 will be saved. If this is so...oh, well, I think God's quota has been met a long time ago...

No, that's not true. Only 144,000 will live with God in heaven. All other JW's will have to settle for living here on earth - from the Watchtower Society "The Anointed (144,000) will be in heaven to reign with Jehovah God. The rest of the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (not of the 144,000) will live forever on a paradise Earth."

Ray :wave:

Athanasian Creed

7th December 2005, 05:41 PM

Well said.

I saw somewhere in their doctrine that Christ is still 'dead' today... so their Jesus is dead, and he's a brother of Satan? I think it's pretty clear that they are speaking of 'another Jesus'. :o

They DO believe in Christ's resurrection. However, they do NOT believe He was raised bodily. They believe He was raised a "glorious spirit creature."

Resurrection of Christ . JWs deny the bodily resurrection of Christ through their teaching that the body of Christ was annihilated by God -- not risen -- but rather a new one was created three days after His death. This they call the "resurrection" of Christ. Thus, Jesus was "resurrected" as a "glorious spirit creature" and does not now have a glorified physical body. Instead, they claim Jesus arose spiritually and only "materialized" at various times after His resurrection so He could be seen alive. (Awake!, 7/22/73, p. 4)

Ray :wave:

casting989

7th December 2005, 05:45 PM

Say what?? From where in Scripture does it say that Jesus was CREATED.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus, the Word, was with God in the beginning and WAS (IS) God. The second verse says ALL things were created by Christ. If He was created, did He create Himself??! NO, He, in fact, is the uncreated God, who existed from all eternity and is the Creator of all things.;)

I hope what you posted was a typo 'cos it ain't Biblical what you said - it is, in fact, heresy (and i'm suprised no one else caught it!):(

Ray :wave:

But saying 'the second verse says ALL things were created by Christ' is not really a proof that Jesus is the Grand Creator. Not to say you're wrong, but think about how you’re arguing it... Then by what you said that means if Jesus is the Creator of ALL things then He too created Himself... But of course that's preposterous.

Athanasian Creed

7th December 2005, 06:11 PM

Their translation, New World Translation, reads that Scripture differently:

'...And the Word was a god' so that is how they 'prove' that Jesus is not Almighty God. But they say Jesus helped Jehovah God in creating all things...and do admit that through Jesus, all things were created.

But saying 'the second verse says ALL things were created by Christ' is not really a proof that Jesus is the Grand Creator. Not to say you're wrong, but think about how you’re arguing it... Then by what you said that means if Jesus is the Creator of ALL things then He too created Himself... But of course that's preposterous. Of course, the JWs know that's impossible too with the Almighty God. He has always existed. They don’t deny that.

Casting, i was referring to what TruthSetsYouFree posted, not what JW's believe (which i know quite well since i've studied it extensively;))

The New World "Translation" is a MIStranslation and a perVERSION. Only one "translator" had what could be considered any sort of knowledge of Greek or Hebrew. They clearly add and subtract from what the Word of God really says. You, perhaps will remember where in the NWT the "translators" add "other" in brackets where the verse speaks of Christ as Creator in Colossians 1, not as the Creator of ALL things but as the Creator of all OTHER things. The word "other" does not appear in the Greek, the word was deliberately added by the "translators" in order to twist Scripture to say what they want it to.;)

Also, Jesus is known in Isaiah 9:6 as the "mighty" God in the NWT and in the true Word of God. JW's will say, aha, see that proves Jesus is not the almighty God. However, SEVERAL times in Scripture Jehovah God Himself is known as the mighty God. If they only turned to the next chapter they would see such -

Isaiah 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

also,

Genesis 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

Ask any JW who the God of Jacob is and they will say Jehovah God Himself. Why then is He referred to as the "mighty" God and not as the "almighty"?? ;)

Ray :wave:

casting989

7th December 2005, 06:15 PM

Casting, i was referring to what TruthSetsYouFree posted, not what JW's believe (which i know quite well since i've studied it extensively;))

The New World "Translation" is a MIStranslation and a perVERSION. Only one "translator" had what could be considered any sort of knowledge of Greek or Hebrew. They clearly add and subtract from what the Word of God really says. You, perhaps will remember where in the NWT the "translators" add "other" in brackets where the verse speaks of Christ as Creator in Colossians 1, not as the Creator of ALL things but as the Creator of all OTHER things. The word "other" does not appear in the Greek, the word was deliberately added by the "translators" in order to twist Scripture to say what they want it to.;)

Also, Jesus is known in Isaiah 9:6 as the "mighty" God in the NWT and in the true Word of God. JW's will say, aha, see that proves Jesus is not the almighty God. However, SEVERAL times in Scripture Jehovah God Himself is known as the mighty God. If they only turned to the next chapter they would see such -

Isaiah 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

also,

Genesis 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

Ask any JW who the God of Jacob is and they will say Jehovah God Himself. Why then is He referred to as the "mighty" God and not as the "almighty"?? ;)

Ray :wave:

Sorry 'bout that. And I'm aware of everything you explained. Sorry 'bout the misunderstanding. =) (Your smilies took up the image limit hehe)

NacDan

7th December 2005, 06:49 PM

Soooooo...back to the original OP....

The reason the Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a forum on Christian Forums dot com is because Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians (as defined by CF rules 6.5).

Danny

WesWoodell

10th December 2005, 02:57 PM

I'll have to take your word for it. It's just that personally I pretty much never see people change their minds through discussion, but rather harden their hearts toward each other. I see it in church, the media, and here on CF.

I've also seen love in action, and that tends to produce much better results.

I'm not telling anybody what to believe.
But I do know that the thief on the cross was saved, I know that the bleeding woman was healed - she apparently thought Jesus was some kind of healer. I know the blind man got his sight, and that was all he knew. I know Lazarus was raised. I've met people who came to faith because they met Jesus in a dream, without having a clue what about how He lived, died and rose, I know Paul clarified the unknown God they worshiped, I know I am saved even though I have no clue or teaching on the trinity, I know I am His child even though I don't even care whether or not the JDS stuff is true.

It takes many things to be a "christian", just think of that word for a second and see how many expectations you get to stuff like language and lifestyle. But to be a child of God, I believe it's easy. He will not cast away those who come to Him.

Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.

I'm not going to define grace, I'm going to live it and share it. I'm not going to put creeds on my faith, I'm going to practice it. It's not my business to find the correct doctrine (1 in about 342387661723342), but rather to love people. It's not my job to reveal truth, that's for the Spirit. I will testify of what I've seen and experienced, and I've never once experienced a doctrine.

Fair enough, but consider this:

1 John 2:22-26
22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist-- he denies the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is what he promised us-- even eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.
(NIV)

casting989

10th December 2005, 05:51 PM

Fair enough, but consider this:

1 John 2:22-26
22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist-- he denies the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is what he promised us-- even eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.
(NIV)

But they do not deny He is the Christ, the Messiah.

WesWoodell

10th December 2005, 06:33 PM

But they do not deny He is the Christ, the Messiah.

They do not believe in the diety of Jesus. In other words, they do not believe that Jesus is Lord. They believe Him to be a created being like you or I, and that He pre-existed as the Archangel Michael.

casting989

10th December 2005, 06:41 PM

They do not believe in the diety of Jesus. In other words, they do not believe that Jesus is Lord. They believe Him to be a created being like you or I, and that He pre-existed as the Archangel Michael.

They believe Jesus is Lord just not the LORD. The Scripture that was quoted said liars are those who deny Jesus is Christ. They do not deny that. That was only what I was saying.

lipoftruth

10th December 2005, 07:50 PM

calidog

10th December 2005, 07:52 PM

They believe Jesus is Lord just not the LORD. The Scripture that was quoted said liars are those who deny Jesus is Christ. They do not deny that. That was only what I was saying.They, in being a christian biblically, must believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead.

lipoftruth

10th December 2005, 07:55 PM

They, in being a christian biblically, must believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead.

And they do. JWs believe firmly that God raised Jesus from the dead.

calidog

10th December 2005, 07:56 PM

And they do. JWs believe firmly that God raised Jesus from the dead.Then, according to the bible, those ones are saved.

lipoftruth

10th December 2005, 08:00 PM

Then, according to the bible, those ones are saved.

So be it.

Imblessed

10th December 2005, 08:03 PM

i think the JWs have conveniently become the punching bag of many mainstream christians who enjoy having a group they can condemn outright on the basis of a theological belief.

Until we can recognise the sincerity and honest commitment that many JWs have in their faith (regardless of whether we agree with them), we ourselves will continue to walk in darkness, for we will not be truly loving our neighbours

well, unless you have actually delved into their beliefs and closely looked at the organization, it's all well and good to say they have sincerity and honest commitment. So do many atheists.

I tried very hard to reconscile their beliefs. My in-laws are JW's. I would love to say they are saved...but the more I looked at their theological views, the more I realized they are on the wrong path.....

benedictine

10th December 2005, 08:07 PM

To settle the matter, Jehovah's Witnesses do not adhere to the Nicene Creed, as required to be classified as a Christian on this site, according to rule 6.5. Therefore, they are not Christians on this site.

calidog

10th December 2005, 08:36 PM

So be it.amen:)

calidog

10th December 2005, 08:43 PM

lipoftruth

10th December 2005, 08:55 PM

fortunately, this site is not God.

calidog

10th December 2005, 09:20 PM

fortunately, this site is not God.:amen: but it has some pluses.

casting989

11th December 2005, 12:55 AM

well, unless you have actually delved into their beliefs and closely looked at the organization, it's all well and good to say they have sincerity and honest commitment. So do many atheists.

I tried very hard to reconscile their beliefs. My in-laws are JW's. I would love to say they are saved...but the more I looked at their theological views, the more I realized they are on the wrong path.....

But then again God judges the heart and we cannot...so it's just as right to say there are many JWs that will be saved as it's right to say there are many 'Christian's that won't be.

For the most part, they are very honest, kind people...just very misled... And it disheartens me when so many talk so negatively of them. Of course they do the same of us Christians, but Jesus told us to love our neighbours - especially those who are our 'enemies' - and because they badmouth us does not give us the right. I was once a JW and I hate myself for being totally mixed up in their doctrine and lifestyle, but I honestly believed in my heart I was following God and was a true Christian... And it would pain me to hear you tell me that then I was not a Christian. In the technical, theogical sense maybe I wasn't but I had the heart for God and so I was a Christian to God and in my heart and to me that mattered. That's probably why God showed me the real Truth and opened the doors.

But I'm speaking from experience. I stand up for them. Yes I'm probably biased because as much as I deny their faith, I was part of it and cannot forget my past. So I am pained by their mistreatment because I have seen the zeal and love of many hones-hearted JWs. Yes there are many in the organization who I would not call true Christians, but then are so on this board too that are not righteous in God's eyes. Who are we to judge? Should we speak terribly of them? No, draw them by love. Their doctrine may be hazy and utterly misguided, but as a whole the religion is not a bad one...it's based off the good works of Jesus. And so, they deserve the respect and love that every other person in the world should receive.

OddBeani

11th December 2005, 12:58 AM

...because calling JV Christians is false?

lipoftruth

11th December 2005, 03:55 AM

Svt4Him

11th December 2005, 05:06 AM

But then again God judges the heart and we cannot...so it's just as right to say there are many JWs that will be saved as it's right to say there are many 'Christian's that won't be.

No, all Christians will be saved. The difference is not all who call themselves Christian are.

For the most part, they are very honest, kind people...just very misled... And it disheartens me when so many talk so negatively of them. Of course they do the same of us Christians, but Jesus told us to love our neighbours - especially those who are our 'enemies' - and because they badmouth us does not give us the right. I was once a JW and I hate myself for being totally mixed up in their doctrine and lifestyle, but I honestly believed in my heart I was following God and was a true Christian... And it would pain me to hear you tell me that then I was not a Christian. In the technical, theogical sense maybe I wasn't but I had the heart for God and so I was a Christian to God and in my heart and to me that mattered. That's probably why God showed me the real Truth and opened the doors.

You were not a Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. With Jesus there is life, without the wrath of God. A JW does not have Jesus, and the jesus they do have is a god, not GOD.

But I'm speaking from experience. I stand up for them. Yes I'm probably biased because as much as I deny their faith, I was part of it and cannot forget my past. So I am pained by their mistreatment because I have seen the zeal and love of many hones-hearted JWs. Yes there are many in the organization who I would not call true Christians, but then are so on this board too that are not righteous in God's eyes. Who are we to judge? Should we speak terribly of them? No, draw them by love. Their doctrine may be hazy and utterly misguided, but as a whole the religion is not a bad one...it's based off the good works of Jesus. And so, they deserve the respect and love that every other person in the world should receive.

They deserve love, as God loves them, but their religion is a bad one. Is it speaking terrible to say they are a cult, change who God is, make the Holy Spirit a thing, make Jesus a created being who didn't raise His body from the dead, and preach that if they're wrong it's ok because there's no hell? Sorry, but I have a hard time respecting that.

holo

11th December 2005, 07:10 AM

But then again God judges the heart and we cannot...so it's just as right to say there are many JWs that will be saved as it's right to say there are many 'Christian's that won't be.

For the most part, they are very honest, kind people...just very misled... And it disheartens me when so many talk so negatively of them. Of course they do the same of us Christians, but Jesus told us to love our neighbours - especially those who are our 'enemies' - and because they badmouth us does not give us the right. I was once a JW and I hate myself for being totally mixed up in their doctrine and lifestyle, but I honestly believed in my heart I was following God and was a true Christian... And it would pain me to hear you tell me that then I was not a Christian. In the technical, theogical sense maybe I wasn't but I had the heart for God and so I was a Christian to God and in my heart and to me that mattered. That's probably why God showed me the real Truth and opened the doors.

But I'm speaking from experience. I stand up for them. Yes I'm probably biased because as much as I deny their faith, I was part of it and cannot forget my past. So I am pained by their mistreatment because I have seen the zeal and love of many hones-hearted JWs. Yes there are many in the organization who I would not call true Christians, but then are so on this board too that are not righteous in God's eyes. Who are we to judge? Should we speak terribly of them? No, draw them by love. Their doctrine may be hazy and utterly misguided, but as a whole the religion is not a bad one...it's based off the good works of Jesus. And so, they deserve the respect and love that every other person in the world should receive.I love your attitude. Don't let it be swallowed up in theology and definitions.

I've never been a JW myself, but I've been a religious and legalistic christian. I didn't know any better. I've witnessed, and participated in, all kinds of drawn out and useless arguments with unbelievers and even most of my brothers and sisters in faith. You know what I got out of that? Nothing. Not once did it produce any kind of good fruit. It was Jesus who rescued me out of legalistic bondage, a religious mindset, my drug problems and my dislike of those who believed differently than me.

Therefore, I won't preach any kind of doctrine anymore, I've decided to stop fighting my own family, and I'm trying to love even my enemies. Though I won't consider JWs to be enemies in the first place.

I met people who loved me, who didn't care to argue with me, who respected me and listened to me, who didn't judge me and tell me how wrong I was. As a result of that, I've changed my mind about a lot of theological stuff - not because of people's arguments, but because their attitude invited me to have an open heart and mind. I hope to pass that attitude on, I hope that God's love in me will humble me and shut me up and let me, more than anything, accept other people. He still has work to do in/with me, but I already get to see fruits. Former enemies have become friends, uptight and hard and legalistic people are slowly transformed, they soften up because I no longer offer them a stone to kick against.

Keep up the good work, young lady. Let your love for them be burning coal on their heads, let your forgiveness and welcoming attitude draw them to what you've got and Who you've got it from.

Aloha Joe

11th December 2005, 08:01 AM

I love your attitude. Don't let it be swallowed up in theology and definitions.

I've never been a JW myself, but I've been a religious and legalistic christian. I didn't know any better. I've witnessed, and participated in, all kinds of drawn out and useless arguments with unbelievers and even most of my brothers and sisters in faith. You know what I got out of that? Nothing. Not once did it produce any kind of good fruit. It was Jesus who rescued me out of legalistic bondage, a religious mindset, my drug problems and my dislike of those who believed differently than me.

Therefore, I won't preach any kind of doctrine anymore, I've decided to stop fighting my own family, and I'm trying to love even my enemies. Though I won't consider JWs to be enemies in the first place.

I met people who loved me, who didn't care to argue with me, who respected me and listened to me, who didn't judge me and tell me how wrong I was. As a result of that, I've changed my mind about a lot of theological stuff - not because of people's arguments, but because their attitude invited me to have an open heart and mind. I hope to pass that attitude on, I hope that God's love in me will humble me and shut me up and let me, more than anything, accept other people. He still has work to do in/with me, but I already get to see fruits. Former enemies have become friends, uptight and hard and legalistic people are slowly transformed, they soften up because I no longer offer them a stone to kick against.

Keep up the good work, young lady. Let your love for them be burning coal on their heads, let your forgiveness and welcoming attitude draw them to what you've got and Who you've got it from.

You don't argue? So...so...what do you do for FUN? :scratch:

holo

11th December 2005, 08:38 AM

You don't argue? So...so...what do you do for FUN? :scratch:Fun? Is life supposed to be fun? Nobody told me... :)

But in all seriousness, I have a lot more fun now than when I based my life on doctrines and such.

You could say I like to argue about arguing, though. Arrgh, you!

Aloha Joe

11th December 2005, 08:48 AM

Are gyou? Or am gI?

jasperbound

11th December 2005, 07:40 PM

You don't argue? So...so...what do you do for FUN? :scratch:

What I've noticed here is that everybody argues that their way is right here. The only difference is that those who argue that while insisting they don't do that are also liars!

TWINSDAD

11th December 2005, 08:07 PM

I have done a lot of research into the JWs. They do beleive Jesus was the Archangle Michael, as do the Mormons And 7th Day Adventest. They have all added to and taken away from God's word. The JWs tranlation say John 1:1
" In the begining was the word and the word was with God and the Word was a a god" Notice the lower case g on the word god. God's word the Bible says " In the begining was the Word and the was with God the Word was God. The Word is Jesus christ, He is not a god, nor was he ever a angle, read Hebrews. There are other major devations from the Bible all the above take. Therefore they are not Christians. Sorry but God's word is His word, and any devations or additions are lies from the Devil himself.
Surrounded by His Grace,
Paul
I pray that this sight will remain true to the Word of God

lipoftruth

11th December 2005, 08:11 PM

You were not a Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. With Jesus there is life, without the wrath of God. A JW does not have Jesus, and the jesus they do have is a god, not GOD.

Can you please direct me to a scripture that clearly says that unless people believe Jesus is God himself, they are not true Christians? I would especially appreciate a scripture that clearly shows Jesus saying this. Thanks.

Svt4Him

11th December 2005, 10:07 PM

Can you please direct me to a scripture that clearly says that unless people believe Jesus is God himself, they are not true Christians? I would especially appreciate a scripture that clearly shows Jesus saying this. Thanks.

Are you asking if people need to believe in Jesus, or create a god in their own image and call him Jesus?

Or are you asking if people need to beleive in Jesus as He is, or create Jesus as they want Him to be and it's ok either way?

The question is moot, as the Jesus of JW does not exist, so what verse would you like that addresses putting hope in someone who doesn't exist?

Lisa0315

11th December 2005, 10:23 PM

Can you please direct me to a scripture that clearly says that unless people believe Jesus is God himself, they are not true Christians? I would especially appreciate a scripture that clearly shows Jesus saying this. Thanks.

John 10 states it, and condemns anyone who tries to enter the gate without Christ. Pay special attention to verse 30. Jesus declares Himself the same as God. Also, throughout the gospel of John, study the use of "I AM". It is the same as the I AM used in Exodus when God spoke to Moses in the burning bush. This phrase has lost alot of meaning to us now, but in the day of Jesus, no Jew would have mistaken His use of this phrase for anything less than a declaration of deity. In fact, at the trial of Jesus, Caiaphas rends his clothing when Jesus says, "You say, I am." Caiaphas says then that he does not need any other witnesses because Jesus has "blasphemed" right in front of him. Jesus also declares, "Here, I Am" when the soldiers come to the garden to arrest him. At these words, the soldiers fall to the ground. This is a display of Christ's power over the soldiers, and that He truly gives His life rather than it is taken from Him.

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? 21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make F22 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+10&version=kjv&showtools=0#F22) us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, 40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. 41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. 42 And many believed on him there

lipoftruth

11th December 2005, 11:26 PM

Are you asking if people need to believe in Jesus, or create a god in their own image and call him Jesus?

Or are you asking if people need to beleive in Jesus as He is, or create Jesus as they want Him to be and it's ok either way?

The question is moot, as the Jesus of JW does not exist, so what verse would you like that addresses putting hope in someone who doesn't exist?

What I was asking was for scriptural proof that Jesus required people to believe he was God himself or else he would deny them salvation.

We are not saved by correct theology.

WesWoodell

11th December 2005, 11:58 PM

We are not saved by correct theology.

Satanists will be saved?

Those who deny Jesus is Lord through their doctrine will be saved?

Well then, let's all go dance in the daisies and stop reading and believing our Bibles. :|

We are saved by Christ, but we must believe in Him and follow Him. That is correct theology, and God makes it clear that if we "practice some other theology" then we'll not enter heaven. I don't understand why people feel that their own personal "enlightenment" transcends the clear teaching of the Bible.

lipoftruth

12th December 2005, 01:33 AM

I didn't say Satanists will be saved. Are you saying that Jehovah's witnesses are Satanists? I can't believe you would be so callous.

What I am saying is that everyone seems to condemn JWs on the basis of their theological belief (ie. that they don't believe in the Trinity).

I can see no evidence in the teachings of Jesus that he will condemn someone on the grounds that they don't believe in the Trinity.

Man looks on the outside, but God sees the heart. The Good Samaritan was acting out of sincere love, and Jesus said we should go and do likewise... whereas the other two theologically correct priests (or whatever you want to call them) totally missed the mark.

Faith in God is not about reciting or believing a creed. It is about responding in faith to what you believe God is telling you.

If a JW is sincerely trying to follow Jesus becuase they believe that he is the Son of God, then they are excercising their faith in Jesus, and God's grace can cover them for whatever errors happen to be in their theological understanding.

It amazes me that people can go on and on about the grace of God being able to forgive them for practically anything under the sun, at the same time that they claim that if someone simply doesn't understand the concept of the Trinity (or believe in it) then they are damned to hell.

I have asked people to post a clear scripture that says that anyone who doesn't equate Jesus with God will be damned to hell, and no such scripture has been posted.

"Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies." (1 Cor 8:1)

Svt4Him

12th December 2005, 02:12 AM

With Jesus there is life, without the wrath of God.

The JW Jesus does not equal the Jesus of the gospel. So you may argue semantics, but there is one gatekeeper. Anyone who tries to sneak in any other way will be damned.

As for the clear Scripture, can you show me a clear Scripture that says Jesus is not Santa? Sure you could, but you would have to do it by showing who Jesus is based on what He has revealed, then seeing who Santa is and see if they equal. So where to start? Well, Jesus is the first and the last, the JW Jesus is a created being. Jesus is God, the JW Jesus is a god. Jesus rose from the dead in bodily form, just like He said He would, the JW Jesus didn't. Jesus is coming back again to judge, the JW Jesus has already come back. So unless you believe Jesus is Santa, it's pretty clear from Scripture who Jesus is, and you then have a clear idea of who He isn't. And I then go back to the verse that says with Jesus (not the Santa/JW/Mormon Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible) there is life, without the wrath of God.

lipoftruth

12th December 2005, 03:16 AM

I think I understand what you are saying better now. Thanks for the explanation.

lipoftruth

12th December 2005, 03:18 AM

Also, I wasn't aware that JWs didn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Is that true? Where then does their promise of salvation come from?

Lisa0315

12th December 2005, 10:46 PM

Also, I wasn't aware that JWs didn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Is that true? Where then does their promise of salvation come from?

Works, sadly, works. They are devoted, I will give them that, but it is all about works with them. Sadly, those who are JW's now, are not even working towards Heaven, but to have a place here on Earth, or New Jerusalam, I should say. Those who will rule with Christ in Heaven (supposedly) are 144,000 who were "saved" before the 1930's. This is their doctrine. You can read it for yourself. Go to www.watchtower.org (http://www.watchtower.org). They do not believe in the deity of Christ, and they do not believe in His ressurrection.

You will be shocked, I think. Don't take our word for it. It's all there and fairly easy to read.

Svt4Him

13th December 2005, 03:33 AM

Also, I wasn't aware that JWs didn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Is that true? Where then does their promise of salvation come from?

They believe He rose, just not in bodily form. So when Jesus went to Thomas and told him to touch Him, it was only for that moment that Jesus became human again.

Also the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force.

janny108

13th December 2005, 11:17 AM

If you must judge people, judge them on how loving they are, not their doctrine.

I think we need to be discerning of doctrine as well. How "loving" people are has a lot to do with doctrine. Both matter though.

Jan

Lynn73

13th December 2005, 02:53 PM

Doctrine must be judged as to whether it's the truth or not. And people caught up in error need to be told the truth in a loving manner.

Lynn73

13th December 2005, 03:01 PM

Can you please direct me to a scripture that clearly says that unless people believe Jesus is God himself, they are not true Christians? I would especially appreciate a scripture that clearly shows Jesus saying this. Thanks.

John 8:21-30 21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
In the King James the word "he" is in italics indicating the word isn't actually in the original text. The translators added it to aid in understanding. So actually Jesus is saying "ye shalldie in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins. He's revealing who He is here. I AM is the name God gave Moses from the burning bush. Read the whole chapter 8, especially verse 58. No one but God can atone for the sins of the whole world therefore if Jesus isn't