Couple questions about judaism...

[Niko]

Ive heard that by jewish law, if ones mother is jewish, they are fully jewish.
what is the orthodox view on this?

also, what is the general feeling between greeks in greece torwards jews (liked, tolerated, despised?)

i am wondering because i know someone who is going to greece soon who is half jewish and half greek. He is greek orthodox and speaks greek and wants to marry a fully greek person. he does not carry on jewish traditions or speak hebrew. he wanted to know from people who have or do live in greece what the general feeling is about jews in greece and if it will be hard to get married to a greek orthodox person with his hebrew heritage.

thanks

[OnTheWay]

Ive heard that by jewish law, if ones mother is jewish, they are fully jewish.
what is the orthodox view on this?

also, what is the general feeling between greeks in greece torwards jews (liked, tolerated, despised?)

i am wondering because i know someone who is going to greece soon who is half jewish and half greek. He is greek orthodox and speaks greek and wants to marry a fully greek person. he does not carry on jewish traditions or speak hebrew. he wanted to know from people who have or do live in greece what the general feeling is about jews in greece and if it will be hard to get married to a greek orthodox person with his hebrew heritage.

thanks

Jewish law might be a bit reaching, however, if one's mother is a full blooded Jew the state of Israel considers you have the right to claim Israeli citizenship under the law of return.
Anti-Semitism is very much alive in all of Europe. Greece has a rather large quasi-National Socialist party called Golden Dawn which publishes the American neo-Nazi rock magazine "Resistance" into the Hellenic language.
Frankly, and I don't want this to sound like I don't like Greeks, but I've never met one that wasn't very very pleased to be Greek. I think he'll find a lot of Greek girls and their fathers that would rather find Greek natives for spouses/son-in-laws.
I also think you're friend would do well to seek the wife God desires him to have, whether she be Greek, Swedish, Chinese, or anything else. I've met no shortage of guys that think they really want European women of various types because they think the "foreign" is exotic and attractive. Only to be sorely dissapointed when they find out that everyone has their short comings.

[repentant]

You can't be half Jewish and half Greek. I know people when I ask what nationality they are, they say Jewish. Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. You can't be Orthodox and be Jewish. If your family is from Israel, then your Israeli, not necassarily Jewish. You can also be Scottish, and be a Jew. But your nationality is Scottish, and your religion is Jewish.

[OnTheWay]

You can't be half Jewish and half Greek. I know people when I ask what nationality they are, they say Jewish. Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. You can't be Orthodox and be Jewish. If your family is from Israel, then your Israeli, not necassarily Jewish. You can also be Scottish, and be a Jew. But your nationality is Scottish, and your religion is Jewish.

That's not entirely accurate. Jewish is an ethnic group, and is genetically identifible as such. In fact many Jews in Israel were upset when a DNA study was published showing that Shepardic Jews and Arabs are related to one another just as Scripture tells us.
One certainly can be a religious Jew and not an ethnic Jew just as one can be an ethnic Jew but not a religious Jew. Christianity on the other hand cannot be used as such an identifer. Jews living in Europe are not of the same ethnic hertiage as the native Europeans. So it would not be incorrect for someone to idenitfy as a Jew.

[repentant]

That's not entirely accurate. Jewish is an ethnic group, and is genetically identifible as such. In fact many Jews in Israel were upset when a DNA study was published showing that Shepardic Jews and Arabs are related to one another just as Scripture tells us.
One certainly can be a religious Jew and not an ethnic Jew just as one can be an ethnic Jew but not a religious Jew. Christianity on the other hand cannot be used as such an identifer. Jews living in Europe are not of the same ethnic hertiage as the native Europeans. So it would not be incorrect for someone to idenitfy as a Jew.

Not really. If you look at the OT you always see God and also Moses say, "My people Israel." The only reason why Jews have been considered a people, is because they are from one area of the world. But in reality they are Israeli.

Exodus 3:10
"So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt."

Exodus 7:4
"he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites".

Exodus 12:40
"Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years."

Exodus 18:1
" Now Jethro, the priest of Midian and father-in-law of Moses, heard of everything God had done for Moses and for his people Israel, and how the LORD had brought Israel out of Egypt."

etc....

But I can see where you are coming from. But think of it this way, if someone asked your nationality would you say Orthodox? Or I'm half Orthodox half Catholic? You can't be.

[OnTheWay]

Not really. If you look at the OT you always see God and also Moses say, "My people Israel." The only reason why Jews have been considered a people, is because they are from one area of the world. But in reality they are Israeli.
But I can see where you are coming from. But think of it this way, if someone asked your nationality would you say Orthodox? Or I'm half Orthodox half Catholic? You can't be.

An ethnic group is a group of people that live in a single area and develop a unique culture and genetic traits. The Jews merely identify with their religion so much they didn't feel it was possible to seperate their ethnic status and their religious status. You can quit being a religious Jew, but you can never stop having your ethnic background.
American is my nationality, however, if someone ask me what my ethnic group was I would say German. Germany is the name of a nation, however, it is also the term used to denote the Germanic ethnic groups.
The Jews that are spread around the world are not converts to Judaism like Christians around the world are converts to Christianity. They are ethnic Jews that though a varity of means were taken out of their traditional home geographical area and spread to other places.
When a family of Russian immigrents packs up and moves to Germany they don't stop being Russian as soon as they cross the border and become Germans. They are ethnic Russians living in Germany. Someone of Jewish background can live anywhere in the world, and religious or not, they are still ethnic Jews.
The French for example have one term that they use to denote the general body that are citizens of the French republic. Then they have a term that means "of French stock" that identifies the ethnic French from the immigrent population.
So one must understand that the word Jew as two means, one is religious and the other is ethnic. Christian doesn't have any other meaning than religious because Christianity has never been limited to a single ethnic group of people.

[EricTheRed]

You can be jew and a christian at the same time...
Jew being a reference to race or ethnicity,..and christian being religion.

There is a small group of jewish christians in India,numbering around 3,00,000,..called the "Knanaya".They live in the south indian state of kerala.

The Knanaya people's ancestors were jewish christians who migrated from persia to India in the 4th century AD.....they are called "knanaya" after the name of their leader "knayi thoma" a very rich trader and community leader at that time.

They now are part of the Universal Syriac Orthodox church and their church is called the Knanaya Syriac Orthodox Church.......but there are some who are catholics too.

plz visit the following link if ud like to know more abt them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knanya_Christians

this link tells about the jewish infuence on the Indian Orthodox Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrani

Thank you they built a Knanya church at the end of my street and I had no idea what is was lol

[repentant]

I don't get it. Judaism (Jew) is a religion. When you speak of France, Russian, German, etc. that is countries. There is no country Jew or Jewish. You can't call yourself a Jew and be a Christian, it doesn't make sense. You would be an Israeli.

[Matrona]

I don't get it. Judaism (Jew) is a religion. When you speak of France, Russian, German, etc. that is countries. There is no country Jew or Jewish. You can't call yourself a Jew and be a Christian, it doesn't make sense. You would be an Israeli.
You don't have to follow Judaism the religion to be of Jewish ethnicity. And you don't have to be of Jewish ethnicity to be a follower of Judaism the religion. You can ask just about anybody, this is fairly widely known.

[repentant]

You don't have to follow Judaism the religion to be of Jewish ethnicity. And you don't have to be of Jewish ethnicity to be a follower of Judaism the religion. You can ask just about anybody, this is fairly widely known.


Yes it is known, but logically doesn't make sense. The Christians of Jewish descent or converted from Judaism may practice customs from there homeland Israel, but probably not the Religious side of it. Do they still celebrate Hannukah? Or go to Synagogues to worship? Do they have Bar-mitzfahs? Probably not. I am Greek and the Greeks in the US still have some of the same customs as they did in Greece, but this is national heritage customs, not Religious (obviously not speaking of Orthodox customs). There is a difference between Religious and ethnic or national customs.

[OnTheWay]

Yes it is known, but logically doesn't make sense. The Christians of Jewish descent or converted from Judaism may practice customs from there homeland Israel, but probably not the Religious side of it. Do they still celebrate Hannukah? Or go to Synagogues to worship? Do they have Bar-mitzfahs? Probably not. I am Greek and the Greeks in the US still have some of the same customs as they did in Greece, but this is national heritage customs, not Religious (obviously not speaking of Orthodox customs). There is a difference between Religious and ethnic or national customs.

The Jews are a unique example in history of when a people (ethnic group) became so tied to a speific religion they took the name of the religion and applied to to their own ethnic group, culture, and religious practices. When Jews converted to Christianity they abandon Judaism, but no one can stop being a member of the ethnic group they were born into.
Let's use a little reverse on this to see if makes since to you. Beligum is an artifical country made up of people that are Flemish and speak Dutch and Wallons that are French speaking. In 1830 when Beligum came into existence these people didn't magically cease to be Flemish or Wallons, even though we'd call them Belgian. Many people live in the United States, no one would describe their ethnic hertiage as "American." Equally so just because a Jew changes his/her religion he/she doesn't magically cease to be part of the Jewish ethnic group.
Jew can be a term for a member of the Jewish faith. It can also be a term for an ethnic group of people whose origins are found in the middle east.

[Annoula]

Ive heard that by jewish law, if ones mother is jewish, they are fully jewish.
what is the orthodox view on this?

do you mean if the same applies for the orthodox?
i don't think it applies.

also, what is the general feeling between greeks in greece torwards jews (liked, tolerated, despised?)

as far as i can understand jews are not highly valued in greece, in general. but i hear of jewish names lots of the time, and that means that there are jewish people down here who are full greek citizens.

i can't say they are despised, nor tolerated, i believe they have been integrated in the greek society. probably many have become orthodox so it's just the name that shows they are from jewish decendant (sp).

i have heard that they are jewish synagogues in Greece, but i don't know how they function or how people feel about it. greeks or jews.

one of my best friends has a jewish surname although her parents and grandparents have been orthodox christians and greek too.


i am wondering because i know someone who is going to greece soon who is half jewish and half greek. He is greek orthodox and speaks greek and wants to marry a fully greek person. he does not carry on jewish traditions or speak hebrew. he wanted to know from people who have or do live in greece what the general feeling is about jews in greece and if it will be hard to get married to a greek orthodox person with his hebrew heritage.

if your friend is half greek and orthodox i don't think his being half jewish will be a problem.



i've had the chance to meet a couple of people from Israel and although i was somehow prejudiced against them, i realised that i felt more close to them than to other european people. it was during a national company meeting where most of the people were european.
i felt much closer to the israelis and the turkish than with the french or the dutch for example.

[repentant]

The Jews are a unique example in history of when a people (ethnic group) became so tied to a speific religion they took the name of the religion and applied to to their own ethnic group, culture, and religious practices. When Jews converted to Christianity they abandon Judaism, but no one can stop being a member of the ethnic group they were born into.
Let's use a little reverse on this to see if makes since to you. Beligum is an artifical country made up of people that are Flemish and speak Dutch and Wallons that are French speaking. In 1830 when Beligum came into existence these people didn't magically cease to be Flemish or Wallons, even though we'd call them Belgian. Many people live in the United States, no one would describe their ethnic hertiage as "American." Equally so just because a Jew changes his/her religion he/she doesn't magically cease to be part of the Jewish ethnic group.
Jew can be a term for a member of the Jewish faith. It can also be a term for an ethnic group of people whose origins are found in the middle east.


No still doesn't fly. If someone is from Iraq, but isn't Islamic, would you call him a Muslim? Just because he is from a Muslim country, doesn't mean he's Muslim. He still may practice Iraqi or Middleeastern custom's but, he doesn't have to be a Muslim. This almost leads to sterotyping, and the sad thing is, the Jews did it to themselves. What you are saying doesn't make sense, for instance there are Jewish people in Greece, that are Greek. So what are they Greek or Jew? They are Greek in heritage, but Jewish in religion. A Greek Jew, like Pete Sampras.

[Annoula]

Anti-Semitism is very much alive in all of Europe. Greece has a rather large quasi-National Socialist party called Golden Dawn which publishes the American neo-Nazi rock magazine "Resistance" into the Hellenic language.
Frankly, and I don't want this to sound like I don't like Greeks, but I've never met one that wasn't very very pleased to be Greek. I think he'll find a lot of Greek girls and their fathers that would rather find Greek natives for spouses/son-in-laws.
I also think you're friend would do well to seek the wife God desires him to have, whether she be Greek, Swedish, Chinese, or anything else. I've met no shortage of guys that think they really want European women of various types because they think the "foreign" is exotic and attractive. Only to be sorely dissapointed when they find out that everyone has their short comings.

there is this Golden Dawn that you are saying, but that doesn't mean that all greek are neo-nazis of course...

and when you say that you never met a greek that wasn't very very pleased to be greek...what do you mean??
that one shouldn't be proud of who he/she is?
are there many american who are not proud of being americans?

aren't you proud of your country?

i don't think there's much difference between the people...
Greece may have probs with racism but it doesn't have the Ku Klux Klan (if i spell it correctly) either!
racism is the fear for the unknown for me...and this happens to all nations and people and mostly to the nations that have been "limited" to their own society for long.

being a greek girl myself i can say that yes i would prefer a greek orthodox guy (because we would share the same orthodox practices but the same greek traditions as well) but i put nationality in a second place.

i would never marry a muslim greek, or even a roman-catholic, or other christian just because he is greek. (just to think about it makes me feel uneasy...)


from my personal perspective and from a couple of friends i have and discussed the subject, i think that this anti-semitism may be true because the semitic understanding is the absolute opposite from the ancient greek philosophy.
as i think about it sometimes it feels like the semitic-jewish heritage we have through christianity is hard to digest.

hm...sometimes i feel that it is a kind of betrayl towards my ancestors ... and their beautiful (for me) way of thinking and philosophising.

this is how i and a couple of friends view this issue. i don't know the origins and causes of anti-semitism.

[repentant]

there is this Golden Dawn that you are saying, but that doesn't mean that all greek are neo-nazis of course...

and when you say that you never met a greek that wasn't very very pleased to be greek...what do you mean??
that one shouldn't be proud of who he/she is?
are there many american who are not proud of being americans?

aren't you proud of your country?

i don't think there's much difference between the people...
Greece may have probs with racism but it doesn't have the Ku Klux Klan (if i spell it correctly) either!
racism is the fear for the unknown for me...and this happens to all nations and people and mostly to the nations that have been "limited" to their own society for long.

being a greek girl myself i can say that yes i would prefer a greek orthodox guy (because we would share the same orthodox practices but the same greek traditions as well) but i put nationality in a second place.

i would never marry a muslim greek, or even a roman-catholic, or other christian just because he is greek. (just to think about it makes me feel uneasy...)


from my personal perspective and from a couple of friends i have and discussed the subject, i think that this anti-semitism may be true because the semitic understanding is the absolute opposite from the ancient greek philosophy.
as i think about it sometimes it feels like the semitic-jewish heritage we have through christianity is hard to digest.

hm...sometimes i feel that it is a kind of betrayl towards my ancestors ... and their beautiful (for me) way of thinking and philosophising.

this is how i and a couple of friends view this issue. i don't know the origins and causes of anti-semitism.


Hey Annoula,

Isn't the Prime Minister of Greece a Jew? Or maybe the one before him?

[Petronius]

i felt much closer to the israelis and the turkish than with the french or the dutch for example.




Interesting, especially when you affirm this with regard to Turkish.

Could you explain this, if you do not mind ?

[Monica, child of God]

Jews who are not religious still share in the same history and culture of Jews who are religious. Whether or not they attend synagogue, keep the high holy days or sit shiva, they have a shared "memory" of the 40 years in the wilderness to the holocaust. Many Jews will tell you that most of the victims of the holocaust were secular Jews who sought to integrate into Gentile society. Which means that they weren't particularly religious but they were still seen as Jews.

There are Jewish languages and slang, music and food. All of these can be honored and kept whether or not you adhere to the Jewish faith. It might be less confusing if there were a separate designation for Jews by religion and ethnic Jews but there isn't.

My best friend and some of my other friends are Jews so we've talked about this a lot over the years.

M.

[repentant]

There is no Jewish "language". If you are speaking of the Jews of Israel, they speak Hebrew, which has been around much longer than the Jewish religion has.

[Annoula]

Hey Annoula,

Isn't the Prime Minister of Greece a Jew? Or maybe the one before him?

i can't say for sure who's jew and who's not.

the former prime minister was called Kostas Simitis. and simitis means Semitis.
so even if he was greek he had some semitic ancestry.


it is interesting to say that an anti-semitic country is governed by a semitic person....

very funny i would say....

[Annoula]

Interesting, especially when you affirm this with regard to Turkish.

Could you explain this, if you do not mind ?


we have many common things with the Turkish people.
We have lived under Ottoman slavery for more than 400 years. our vocabulary has many turskish words, we have common foods and drinks, and similar music.

additionally, the mediterenean people look alike.
it's always a pleasure for me to see an italian for example.
even our looks are the same. some times you cannot say if this person is greek, italian or turkish. (i would say spanish too, but i don't think i've met spanish people yet).


the problem is always politics, econimical issues and fanatics of religion or of nationality.
otherwise i think i would have great fun hanging out with turskish people.

[repentant]

it is interesting to say that an anti-semitic country is governed by a semitic person....

very funny i would say....

Yeah that was what I was getting at, lol. I am pretty sure the recent or the former PM was a Jew. I remember my dad saying something about it. Back home we got the Antenna Channel, was a satelite station from Greece.

[Annoula]

Yeah that was what I was getting at, lol. I am pretty sure the recent or the former PM was a Jew. I remember my dad saying something about it. Back home we got the Antenna Channel, was a satelite station from Greece.

u get to watch Antenna???
my tv antenna is damaged some years now and because am not interested in fixing it, i can't see Antenna channel and some other major channels.

thank God i am off the tv for some weeks now!

i don't think the recent PM is Jew. his name is Karamanlis, i think he comes from somewhere else. but again i don't think he is of greek origin.

we are a bunch of people down here and we can't find a greek-greek to govern us...... pathetic.....

[repentant]

u get to watch Antenna???
my tv antenna is damaged some years now and because am not interested in fixing it, i can't see Antenna channel and some other major channels.

thank God i am off the tv for some weeks now!

i don't think the recent PM is Jew. his name is Karamanlis, i think he comes from somewhere else. but again i don't think he is of greek origin.

we are a bunch of people down here and we can't find a greek-greek to govern us...... pathetic.....


Lol yeah we get Antenna through the satelite. My pappou got a satelite dish just to watch Antenna. That's all he watches, and when he is not home he records it, lol.

[Monica, child of God]

There is no Jewish "language". If you are speaking of the Jews of Israel, they speak Hebrew, which has been around much longer than the Jewish religion has.

For many Jews, Yiddish is their first language. It is unique to Jews regardless of the larger culture they belong to or the faith that they practice.

Yiddish language, member of the West Germanic group of the Germanic subfamily of the Indo-European family of languages. Although it is not a national language, Yiddish is spoken by about 4 million Jews all over the world, especially in Argentina, Canada, France, Israel, Mexico, Romania, and the U.S. Before the annihilation of 6 million Jews by the Nazis, Yiddish was the tongue of more than 11 million people. Yiddish, although it is not a national language, is spoken by Jews all over the world. It arose (c.1100) out of a blend of a number of German dialects in the ghettos of Central Europe, and from there it spread to other parts of the world. Phonetically, Yiddish is closer to Middle High German than is modern German. Its vocabulary is basically German, but it has been enlarged by borrowings from Hebrew, Slavic, Romance languages, and English.

[Niko]

thanks for answering some of my questions, but im still a little incomplete about this part:

He is greek orthodox and speaks greek and wants to marry a fully greek person. he does not carry on jewish traditions or speak hebrew. he wanted to know from people who have or do live in greece what the general feeling is about jews in greece and if it will be hard to get married to a greek orthodox person with his hebrew heritage.


if some more people have lived in greece that could answer this question, it would be greatly appreciated.

thank you for all of your responses!
---------------------------------------------
ps-on the way, where is your church? i also attend st. spyridon but mine is in worcester. yours?

[Greg the byzantine]

Lol yeah we get Antenna through the satelite. My pappou got a satelite dish just to watch Antenna. That's all he watches, and when he is not home he records it, lol.
:D My yiayia has Satelite just for Antenna too. They always have the most depressing news stories, and then my Grandmother goes and tells them to us. Then when they have televised debates the people are always interrupting each other lol. Then she watches her Soap Operas like Kalimera Zoe and H Lampsi not to mention the talk show Proinos Kafes.

[OnTheWay]

No still doesn't fly. If someone is from Iraq, but isn't Islamic, would you call him a Muslim? Just because he is from a Muslim country, doesn't mean he's Muslim. He still may practice Iraqi or Middleeastern custom's but, he doesn't have to be a Muslim. This almost leads to sterotyping, and the sad thing is, the Jews did it to themselves. What you are saying doesn't make sense, for instance there are Jewish people in Greece, that are Greek. So what are they Greek or Jew? They are Greek in heritage, but Jewish in religion. A Greek Jew, like Pete Sampras.

Again, Islam has never been an exclusive religion. Someone from Iraq that is an Arab cannot stop being an Arab. Hebrews (Jews) are an ethnic group that comes from the middle east. They may or may not be religious Jews, but they can never stop being ethnic Jews.
I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp. If a person living in Greece is ethnically a Jew then he's not a Greek but a Jew living in Greece. They may be to a lesser or greater extent culturally Greek, but they are not ethnically Greek unless they have Greek blood.
I guess what you have to come to terms with is the term Jew isn't limited to being a religious identifer. Jews are a Semitic people, Greeks are an Indo-European people.

[ufonium2]

That's not entirely accurate. Jewish is an ethnic group, and is genetically identifible as such.

Semites are an ethic group, but are Jews? The Semitic ethnicity includes lots of non-Jewish Arabs. Is there a genetic difference between Jews and Palestinians?

[OnTheWay]

there is this Golden Dawn that you are saying, but that doesn't mean that all greek are neo-nazis of course...

I never said all Greeks were neo-Nazis.

and when you say that you never met a greek that wasn't very very pleased to be greek...what do you mean??
that one shouldn't be proud of who he/she is?
are there many american who are not proud of being americans?
aren't you proud of your country?

I mean Greeks, more so than a lot of other Europeans, are very into their "Greekness."
You can't compare being an American to being Greek. There is an entire ethnic and cultural hertiage implied when one says I'm Greek. When one says "I'm America" that simply means you live within the internationally recongized borders of the United States.
There's nothing wrong with an active interest in one's hertiage, so long as it doesn't lead to feelings of ethnic superiority.

i don't think there's much difference between the people...
Greece may have probs with racism but it doesn't have the Ku Klux Klan (if i spell it correctly) either!

I hate to break it to you, but the "kkk" doesn't really exist anymore. There are dozens of tiny groups that call themselves the real "kkk" across the US. Golden Dawn is significantly larger and better organized than all of them combine. What does it mean, well some Greeks don't like foriegners and some Americans don't like people that don't come from Europe. Nobody's perfect.

racism is the fear for the unknown for me...and this happens to all nations and people and mostly to the nations that have been "limited" to their own society for long.

That's not really logical. As more and more foreigners have come to Europe the ethnic nationalist parties all across Europe have grown a great deal, whereas in the 60's where there were really no foriegners there was no active ethnic nationalist movement.
It's really more complicated than that. Sure there's always a level of I don't know you and you don't look like me so stay away. However, as it clear from France's riots Muslim culture and European culture simply aren't working as co-existing bodies. There are a lot of issues there so taking down to a sound bit solution simply isn't realistic.

being a greek girl myself i can say that yes i would prefer a greek orthodox guy (because we would share the same orthodox practices but the same greek traditions as well) but i put nationality in a second place.

Would you rather marry a Greek Orthodox man or a Russian Orthodox man assuming other factors were about equal?


from my personal perspective and from a couple of friends i have and discussed the subject, i think that this anti-semitism may be true because the semitic understanding is the absolute opposite from the ancient greek philosophy.
as i think about it sometimes it feels like the semitic-jewish heritage we have through christianity is hard to digest.

Christianity is linked to Judaism, but Christianity is not Judaism repackaged. It is the catholic religion for all mankind and only in Christ is there salvation.


this is how i and a couple of friends view this issue. i don't know the origins and causes of anti-semitism.

Too large a topic to really going into on a posting board. If I had to pick a few:
1.Jewish populations placed throughout Europe were unwelcome guests.
2.Lack of understanding on both sides. Jews refusing to accomadate elements of culture and Europeans taking this as a Jewish declaration of superority.
3.Some misplaced (and at times exploited) anger at the Jews for what many Europeans thought amounted to their responsiblity for killing Christ.
4.Strong Jewish tendecy to get involved in vice industries.

[OnTheWay]

Semites are an ethic group, but are Jews? The Semitic ethnicity includes lots of non-Jewish Arabs. Is there a genetic difference between Jews and Palestinians?

Speaking of Shepardic Jews, yes there is a genetic difference (minor) between them and the surrounding Arabs. They did a study on this a few years ago, if you'd like you can look it up. It didn't sit well with a lot of Israelis.

[Monica, child of God]

Semites are an ethic group, but are Jews? The Semitic ethnicity includes lots of non-Jewish Arabs. Is there a genetic difference between Jews and Palestinians?

Whether or not there is a genetic distinction Jews definitely fit the description of an ethnic group:

ethnic, adjective, noun.
adj. 1. having to do with the various racial and cultural groups of people and the characteristics, language, and customs of each; of, having to do with, or peculiar to a people.

[ufonium2]

Whether or not there is a genetic distinction Jews definitely fit the description of an ethnic group:

ethnic, adjective, noun.
adj. 1. having to do with the various racial and cultural groups of people and the characteristics, language, and customs of each; of, having to do with, or peculiar to a people.

Instead of being condescending and quoting the dictionary, you could've read my post again and understood that I was responding to someone who said that Jews were a genetically identifiable ethnic group.

Regarding the study that distinguishes between Shepardic Jews and other Arabs, you (OntheWay) said yourself the differences are small. Is it not safe to say that Shepardic Jews share more genetic material with their Palestinian neighbors than with Jews in Russia or Ethiopia? Are Jews everywhere genetically identifiable? Because I remember reading that 90% of the Jews in Israel are not of Shepardic heritage.

[OnTheWay]

Regarding the study that distinguishes between Shepardic Jews and other Arabs, you (OntheWay) said yourself the differences are small. Is it not safe to say that Shepardic Jews share more genetic material with their Palestinian neighbors than with Jews in Russia or Ethiopia? Are Jews everywhere genetically identifiable? Because I remember reading that 90% of the Jews in Israel are not of Shepardic heritage.

Small can be relative. I mean were are 99.8 percent genetically identical to chimps, and more than 50 percent genetically identical to bananas. So a rather "small" difference of .02, but there isn't a vast difference between Shepardic Jews and Arabs.
Now here's where we get into some historical tricky areas. Most Jews in eastern Europe are Khazars from western Asia who became Jews when their kings decided that Judaism was a third option to avoid falling to the either the Christian or Muslim sphere of influence. So while they took on Jewish cultural and religious practices they aren't of the Jewish ethnic group we read about in the OT. As such they'd have genetically very little in common with either Shepardic Jews or Arabs.
In western Europe, as one might expect with a tiny minority group, they've become heavily mixed with native Europeans. So it many ways it would depend on the individual Jew and how closely related he/she is to his/her ancestors in the middle east. The Nazis were fond of using the Semitic archtype of German Jews that were much more closely related to their middle eastern ancestors than those that looked much more similar to the native German population. It's interesting to note that a huge number of Hitler's SA were dating or married to Jewish women. Hitler's choice to develop the new state religion of Germany, Alfred Rosenburg, was most likely Jewish himself.
The Jews as such are an interesting mixed bag of culture, religion and ethnicity. So it would be wise to note that when referring to ethnic Jews I mean Shepardic Jews (ie the Jews of the OT) and those whose ethnic bloodlines are closely related.

[Monica, child of God]

Instead of being condescending and quoting the dictionary, you could've read my post again and understood that I was responding to someone who said that Jews were a genetically identifiable ethnic group.

:o *Monica is mortified*


Ufonium I really did not mean to sound condescending. The intent behind my post was not to belittle your point but to put the matter in a different context. More and more I see that things written on the internet can be interpreted with a completely different tone than what was meant. I think that is what happened here. Please forgive me for not being more careful.

M.

[Maximus]

Small can be relative. I mean were are 99.8 percent genetically identical to chimps, and more than 50 percent genetically identical to bananas. So a rather "small" difference of .02, but there isn't a vast difference between Shepardic Jews and Arabs.
Now here's where we get into some historical tricky areas. Most Jews in eastern Europe are Khazars from western Asia who became Jews when their kings decided that Judaism was a third option to avoid falling to the either the Christian or Muslim sphere of influence. So while they took on Jewish cultural and religious practices they aren't of the Jewish ethnic group we read about in the OT. As such they'd have genetically very little in common with either Shepardic Jews or Arabs.
In western Europe, as one might expect with a tiny minority group, they've become heavily mixed with native Europeans. So it many ways it would depend on the individual Jew and how closely related he/she is to his/her ancestors in the middle east. The Nazis were fond of using the Semitic archtype of German Jews that were much more closely related to their middle eastern ancestors than those that looked much more similar to the native German population. It's interesting to note that a huge number of Hitler's SA were dating or married to Jewish women. Hitler's choice to develop the new state religion of Germany, Alfred Rosenburg, was most likely Jewish himself.
The Jews as such are an interesting mixed bag of culture, religion and ethnicity. So it would be wise to note that when referring to ethnic Jews I mean Shepardic Jews (ie the Jews of the OT) and those whose ethnic bloodlines are closely related.

I don't think it is possible to be so exact in defining Jewish ethnicity and heredity. Although it is true the Khazars accepted Judaism and form an element of the Ashkenazic make-up, they cannot account for all of it.

It is likely that Ashkenazic Jews also have a share of genuine Semitic ancestry.

[ufonium2]

:o *Monica is mortified*


:) *ufonium already forgot about it*

[OnTheWay]

I don't think it is possible to be so exact in defining Jewish ethnicity and heredity. Although it is true the Khazars accepted Judaism and form an element of the Ashkenazic make-up, they cannot account for all of it.

It is likely that Ashkenazic Jews also have a share of genuine Semitic ancestry.

I agree, in many cases it's easier to say what a Jew is not rather than speifically what they are in terms of ethnicity.

[Annoula]

I mean Greeks, more so than a lot of other Europeans, are very into their "Greekness."


i can't really comment on that, cause i haven't met a lot of foreigners. so i have no valid reason to doubt you.

although i have heard that French are pretty nationalists. (if i use the word correct)


I hate to break it to you, but the "kkk" doesn't really exist anymore. There are dozens of tiny groups that call themselves the real "kkk" across the US. Golden Dawn is significantly larger and better organized than all of them combine. What does it mean, well some Greeks don't like foriegners and some Americans don't like people that don't come from Europe. Nobody's perfect.


what i wanted to say is that the kkk was really killing people back then.
as far as i can comment on Golden Dawn and as i am living in Greece, it is not very popular. if you are interested you can find their newspaper or whatever, but you have to look for them yourself.
and even if it represents racism, i don't think the majority of Greeks (who may have racist tendencies) will be so fanatic.

and, how can you be so sure that Golden Dawn is better organized than other similar groups in America?
just out of curiosity...



That's not really logical. As more and more foreigners have come to Europe the ethnic nationalist parties all across Europe have grown a great deal, whereas in the 60's where there were really no foriegners there was no active ethnic nationalist movement.
It's really more complicated than that. Sure there's always a level of I don't know you and you don't look like me so stay away. However, as it clear from France's riots Muslim culture and European culture simply aren't working as co-existing bodies. There are a lot of issues there so taking down to a sound bit solution simply isn't realistic.


i believe that most of the racism in the world comes from financial issues that arise from the coming of the emigrants. financial issues plus the fear of the unknown-strange (language, culture, tradition etc)



Would you rather marry a Greek Orthodox man or a Russian Orthodox man assuming other factors were about equal?


i would prefer the Greek Orthodox man, of course. because apart from the same faith we would share the greek tradition too.

but if i had to choose between a Russian Orthodox and a Greek Muslim, i would take the Russian!!!

[Annoula]

Niko,

i don't think you'll find any more greeks living in Greece right now.
i think i am a lonely minority...

hehehee

[ufonium2]

what i wanted to say is that the kkk was really killing people back then.
as far as i can comment on Golden Dawn and as i am living in Greece, it is not very popular. if you are interested you can find their newspaper or whatever, but you have to look for them yourself.
and even if it represents racism, i don't think the majority of Greeks (who may have racist tendencies) will be so fanatic.

and, how can you be so sure that Golden Dawn is better organized than other similar groups in America?
just out of curiosity...


I'm not OntheWay, so maybe it's not my place, but I can say that I grew up in the American South, and I've never personally known anyone involved in the KKK. I wouldn't even know where to look for a KKK newspaper, if such a thing even exists.

I think Europeans think Americans are a lot more racist than we really are. I had a German friend who couldn't believe that we didn't legally segregate our Black people into their own apartment buildings, because that's what he'd been told. You have to remember that a whole big chunk of the American population (African-Americans) were violently (literally) integrated into our society, most of them with nothing and into a devestated agrarian economy, less than 200 years ago. And we're supposed to be embrassed about our lack of perfect racial harmony, while the suburbs of Paris burn?

From where I am, it doesn't look like Europe is in any place to be pointing out America's racial problems.

[OnTheWay]

i can't really comment on that, cause i haven't met a lot of foreigners. so i have no valid reason to doubt you.

although i have heard that French are pretty nationalists. (if i use the word correct)


The French tend to have the same regard. Though to be fair while the Greeks are quite proud of their culture I have never seen in Greece the level of pure chauvinistic that one often sees when dealing with the French.



what i wanted to say is that the kkk was really killing people back then.
as far as i can comment on Golden Dawn and as i am living in Greece, it is not very popular. if you are interested you can find their newspaper or whatever, but you have to look for them yourself.
and even if it represents racism, i don't think the majority of Greeks (who may have racist tendencies) will be so fanatic.

I've done a lot of reading on various nationalist causes all over Europe. In times past the KKK did indeed kill people. However, it's been decades since they had the kind of influence that will allow them to kill and go unpunished. Golden Dawn has never enjoyed that type of influence, however, I tend to doubt many of them would have any trouble with the idea.

and, how can you be so sure that Golden Dawn is better organized than other similar groups in America?
just out of curiosity...

When researching ethnic nationalist groups in Europe for a paper I used three standards:
1.Activity (in other words are they active, what do they "do" for their cause)
2.Funding (do they have enough money to operate on any real scale)
3.Popular status (do they stand in elections and do they win seats or get fair numbers of votes)

Golden Dawn translates and prints a quarterly Nazi rock magazine, so they do have sufficent staff to preform the translation and sufficent money to print. They appear in European media outlets on a regular basis so they are active. I was never able to get much information about whether they stood in elections or not.
KKK groups in the US are inactive and generally only operate in concert with American neo-Nazi groups. There is a single Golden Dawn, whereas in the US there are dozens of "kkk" groups. Now I realize that there are several American states bigger than Greece, so even to bring the scale down the GBI (Georgia Bureau of Investigation) reports 7 klan groups with a known membership of less than 300. Getting exact numbers is difficult as most are not going to admit to the authorities they belong to one or more of these groups.



i believe that most of the racism in the world comes from financial issues that arise from the coming of the emigrants. financial issues plus the fear of the unknown-strange (language, culture, tradition etc)

I would honestly have to say this is many cases is a pop culture myth, and the reduction of complex problems to sound bites. Using Europe's Muslim population as an example, it's fairly plain to see that these people are violently hostile to European cultures. Not all of them, but a fair number. The riots in France, several in the United Kingdom (Oldham a few years ago when not only did Muslims target native British but also Sikhs and Hindus). India is another example of where Muslims are violently committed to the destruction of Hindu culture. India is also an example of how the rising number of Mulims increase the scale and probability of violence.
So are there vaild concerns about immigration of hostile minorities into Europe beyond merely selfish worries of economics? I think anyone being rational would have to say there are.
On the other hand, you are also right. I know from experience there is a lot of hostility towards FSU immigrents in Germany and it's for no vaild reason other than a traditional dislike of Slavs. Groups like the BNP in the UK don't bother to note that while the Muslim community is a problem the Sikhs and Hindus are productive members of British society.



i would prefer the Greek Orthodox man, of course. because apart from the same faith we would share the greek tradition too.
but if i had to choose between a Russian Orthodox and a Greek Muslim, i would take the Russian!!!

And I don't think there's anything in the world wrong with that. However, what the OP was dealing with is the odds of his friend, a foreigner, finding a Greek wife in Greece. I don't personally think that his having a Jewish mother would be the major issue, however I think he would find a lot of Greek women like yourself that would prefer a native Greek.
In my personal case I would like to find a wife that at least speaks German, even more so is German, so she doesn't feel excluded at family functions or, should the case arise that we moved to Germany, wouldn't feel stranded without me.

[OnTheWay]

I think Europeans think Americans are a lot more racist than we really are. I had a German friend who couldn't believe that we didn't legally segregate our Black people into their own apartment buildings, because that's what he'd been told. You have to remember that a whole big chunk of the American population (African-Americans) were violently (literally) integrated into our society, most of them with nothing and into a devestated agrarian economy, less than 200 years ago. And we're supposed to be embrassed about our lack of perfect racial harmony, while the suburbs of Paris burn?

From where I am, it doesn't look like Europe is in any place to be pointing out America's racial problems.

Frankly European politicians, very much including mainstream politicians, say things about race and immigration on a regular basis that would render an American politician completely unelectable.

From my experiences it seems that many Europeans tend to think the only sort of racism is when European Americans don't like blacks, and as you note often have silly ideas about how things are here. Then again my anut from Saarbrucken was amazed to find out you couldn't drive from New York to Seattle in a day. I honestly think Russians are the only people in Europe that have an accurate view of how big the United States really is.

[Wiffey]

There is no Jewish "language". If you are speaking of the Jews of Israel, they speak Hebrew, which has been around much longer than the Jewish religion has.

Not true. Ashkenazi Jews (who lived in Eastern Europe) spoke Yiddish, which is related to German linguistically but is written with Hebrew letters. Sephardic Jews in Spain spoke Ladino, also written in Hebrew letters. Within these Jewish communities Hebrew was really only used for religious purposes. When the State of Israel came into being and Hebrew was designated the national language, most Jews emigrating to Israel were not fluent in Hebrew and had to attend intensive classes.



Ack...Should have finished reading the thread before responding. Sorry for being redundant.

[ufonium2]

So once this friend of mine was called to be a consultant on a production of Porgy and Bess in Germany. If you don't know, Porgy and Bess is about an African-American subculture, and the composer stipulated in his will that it would always be performed by a Black cast. Well believe it or not, there aren't that many Black opera singers in Germany, so they ended up using mostly imported African-Americans for the cast.

So anyway, it's tradition on opening night to have a reception for the cast after the show. Well, my friend gets to the reception before the cast, and to her horror, the place is decked out like a barn, hay bales and bandannas and all, and for the food they are serving what they think Black Americans want, which includes fried chicken and watermelon. So my friend is frantically trying to explain to these Germans that that's about a 100-year-old stereotype of African-Americans, it's highly offensive, and the cast is likely to go berserk if they see it. Apparently she had more luck running and warning the cast that they were about to step into a really offensive situation, and that she was pretty sure it hadn't been done on purpose. I would have loved to have seen the look on her face when she walked into that room.

[OnTheWay]

From my whacky but true news stories, several years ago a Swedish newspaper (Aftonbladet) ran a story about a Swedish neo-Nazi that had robbed several banks and shot a police officer. He was intending to donate the proceeds from the robberies to neo-Nazi causes around the world.

That's not very suprising, hardly the first time neo-nutzis have been violent criminals. What is strange though is that this Swedish neo-nazi is the son of an Arabic woman and a black Muslim father who were living in Sweden as refugees until they were deported after their asylum request was denied. He wasn't living with them and chose to remain in Sweden illegally. I guess he skipped a few pages in the books he was reading. :doh: