Western Rite Orthodox

[pjw]

anyone here attend a Western-Rite Orthodox Parish? if so, which liturgy do you use? if you use St. Tikhon's, can you tell me what it's like? thanks!

[MariaRegina]

I have attended a Western Rite Orthodox Liturgy.

Frankly, I felt like I was in the twilight zone.

I knew it was Orthodox, but it sure felt like I was attending a pre-Vatican II Mass in English.

I definitely prefer the Eastern Divine Liturgy.

[ByzantineDixie]

Frankly, I felt like I was in the twilight zone.



That's what the Eastern Liturgy seemed like to me the first few times I attended!

Actually I have never attended Western Rite but quite honestly if a parish would start within an hour and a half of my home...I would join them. Unfortunately, the Western Rite Vicariate tells me there is no congregation planned for the ATL area...so, I'm staying with the Greeks. My husband has so far rejected Orthodoxy because he can't get past the whole ethnic thing. I think if he could attend a Western Rite service the "strangeness" factor would be significantly reduced.

As far as the liturgy is concerned I think WR primarily uses St. Gregory's and St. Tikhon's. The WR Orthodox Missal I have lists both.

[MariaRegina]

That's what the Eastern Liturgy seemed like to me the first few times I attended!

Actually I have never attended Western Rite but quite honestly if a parish would start within an hour and a half of my home...I would join them. Unfortunately, the Western Rite Vicariate tells me there is no congregation planned for the ATL area...so, I'm staying with the Greeks. My husband has so far rejected Orthodoxy because he can't get past the whole ethnic thing. I think if he could attend a Western Rite service the "strangeness" factor would be significantly reduced.

As far as the liturgy is concerned I think WR primarily uses St. Gregory's and St. Tikhon's. The WR Orthodox Missal I have lists both.

The Western Rite Liturgy is a valid liturgy.

I just couldn't get used to kneeling so much.

It's the kneeling that seemed to transport me back in time.

On Sundays, at the Divine Liturgy, we stand through most of the Divine Liturgy ... unless we are sick. We never kneel on Sunday unless we are singing the Troparion to the Holy Cross or the Hymn to the Holy Cross which replaces the Trisagion, then we will kneel to prostrate on the ground.

[ByzantineDixie]

I just couldn't get used to kneeling so much.



As I understand it...kneeling is more of a Western thing. But I am Western and I like kneeling. We kneel for the epikesis at the Greek church...I like that, too...even if they don't have kneelers and its harder to get up! :D

[Lotar]

I know a guy who goes to a Western rite church. I plan on going to visit some time soon, just to see what it is like.

It'll probably remind me of those long past Sunday mornings spent drawing massively intricate stick figure battles on the back of church bulletins. :sorry:

[MariaRegina]

Are you going to attend St. Michaels in Whittier, Lotar?

It's a cute little church done in a California Mission style.

[Lotar]

Are you going to attend St. Michaels in Whittier, Lotar?

It's a cute little church done in a California Mission style.

Yep. Just haven't decided when yet. :)

[ByzantineDixie]

It'll probably remind me of those long past Sunday mornings spent drawing massively intricate stick figure battles on the back of church bulletins. :sorry:

Did you share those stick figure drawings with your sister and giggle about them and punch each other in the ribs? And when mom glanced over with a stern look did you try to pretend you did nothing wrong? :angel:

Well then bring your sister with you and relive your childhood!

I know that Western Rite is like the black sheep of Orthodoxy but short of having a "North American" or "United States" Orthodox Church it seems an environment in which I could blend in much more easily.

Even when I was Lutheran I saw the German ethnic overlay of the Lutheran church as problematic...and heck, my mom is from the Vaterland! But the ethnic thing in the Orthodox church (at least the one I go to) is far more prominent. I do feel quite out of place. Not that it matters so much...the need to be Orthodox far surpasses my desire to be comfortable and ethnically aligned...it's just one of those "I wish" things.

But the ouzo ain't bad...when it's permitted, of course! ;)

[Mary of Bethany]

pjw,

from what I understand, the Western Rite is very very similar to the Anglican Catholic liturgy I used to attend. There is a WR church in Fort Worth (St. Peter's, I think); a former Episcopal congregation. Don't know if you're anywhere near Fort Worth, TX, but it looks like a beautiful church and an active parish.

Mary

[pjw]

pjw,

from what I understand, the Western Rite is very very similar to the Anglican Catholic liturgy I used to attend. There is a WR church in Fort Worth (St. Peter's, I think); a former Episcopal congregation. Don't know if you're anywhere near Fort Worth, TX, but it looks like a beautiful church and an active parish.

Mary
I have a text copy of St. Tikhon's Liturgy, and yes, it's an adaptation of the Book of Common Prayer, with some references back to the first edition.

[Facing East]

I think I would prefer a Western Rite Liturgy. I feel homesick in Orthodoxy

[Facing East]

I think I would prefer a Western Rite Liturgy. I feel homesick in Orthodoxy

[CFoxDWH]

I think I would prefer a Western Rite Liturgy. I feel homesick in Orthodoxy
I second that. I wish there was a WR church in this state.

[MariaRegina]

I second that. I wish there was a WR church in this state.

Contact the Antiochians or the ROCOR. Both have Western Rite Churches and some are starting missions, so you never know, unless you ask. :)

[pjw]

we have a western rite ROCOR church in launceston (about 150 km away), but I think they're catholic rite, not episcopalian, and I don't think I'd be at all comfortable in that. we have no antiochian churches in my state at the moment. I think I'd prefer to be in a Byzantine-rite church than a catholic-rite one, but only if the liturgy was in English.

[choirfiend]

The important thing is to be in the service, praying, preparing for, and receiving the Eucharist. If that's not the case, preferences for what will make us feel familiar and warm and fuzzy don't really matter.

[AnthonyRC]

Are there any online videos of a WR Liturgy?

[pjw]

The important thing is to be in the service, praying, preparing for, and receiving the Eucharist. If that's not the case, preferences for what will make us feel familiar and warm and fuzzy don't really matter.
I don't like the general confession in St. Gregory's liturgy, "I confess to St. such and such, & so on." I'd prefer the Byzantine liturgies to that, but I'd prefer St. Tikhon's (http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF) .

[MariaRegina]

we have a western rite ROCOR church in launceston (about 150 km away), but I think they're catholic rite, not episcopalian, and I don't think I'd be at all comfortable in that. we have no antiochian churches in my state at the moment. I think I'd prefer to be in a Byzantine-rite church than a catholic-rite one, but only if the liturgy was in English.

The catholic rite is almost identical to the episcopalian rite. I've seen both liturgies and they have the same additions or deletions (adding the Trisagion and the epiclesis and deleting the filioque). Yes, some of the prayers are little different, but generally it's the same Western feel.

Give it a try.

[MariaRegina]

I don't like the general confession in St. Gregory's liturgy, "I confess to St. such and such, & so on." I'd prefer the Byzantine liturgies to that, but I'd prefer St. Tikhon's (http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF) .

In the Orthodox Prayer Book, we also have prayers to the saints. Our confession is also made to the Holy Angels.

Remember that the confideor is "orthodox" and pre-schism.

[pjw]

The catholic rite is almost identical to the episcopalian rite. I've seen both liturgies and they have the same additions or deletions (adding the Trisagion and the epiclesis and deleting the filioque). Yes, some of the prayers are little different, but generally it's the same Western feel.

Give it a try.
the ROCOR church here, i think actually uses the Sarum rite. i believe the BCP was originally based on that rite, so it wouldn't surprise me if they were similar.

[pjw]

In the Orthodoxy Prayer Book, we also have prayers to the saints. Our confession is also made to the Holy Angels.

Remember that the confideor is "orthodox" and pre-schism.
yeah, I know that, but I don't like this:
I confess to God, to blessed Mary, to all the saints and to you: because I have sinned too much by thought, word, and deed by my fault: I pray, holy Mary, all the saints of God, and you to pray for me.
although, if the departed saints are regarded as still part of the Church, then our confession to the Church should be heard by them as well as by the priest.

[MariaRegina]

yeah, I know that, but I don't like this:

although, if the departed saints are regarded as still part of the Church, then our confession to the Church should be heard by them as well as by the priest.

Is that an actual quote ... ugh. Sounds too much like the novus ordo.

[pjw]

Is that an actual quote ... ugh. Sounds too much like the novus ordo.
ooookkkkk...

The Divine Liturgy according to the Rite of Saint Gregory
Antiochian Archdiocese - Western Rite Vicariate...
I confess to God Almighty, to Blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John (the) Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the Saints, and to thee, father, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed, by my fault, by my own fault, by my own most grievous fault. Wherefore I beg blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and thee, father, to pray for me to the Lord our God.
that is from: http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm

then there's this:
THE DIVINE LITURGY OF SARUM:
Usus Cascadae


AUTHORIZED FOR USE WITHIN
THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA.
BY HIS GRACE ARCHBISHOP HILARION.

...
I confess to God Almighty, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Blessed Mary, all the Saints, before the whole company of Heaven, and to you, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed through my fault, my own fault, my own most grievous fault. Wherefore I pray Holy Mary, all the Saints of God and you, to pray for me
from: http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/sarum.htm

and this:
THE ENGLISH LITURGY
According to the Western Rite,
derived from the Sarum, 1549, 1718 etc.,
adapted using the rules authorised by
the Holy Synod of Russia.

...
I confess to God Almighty, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Blessed Mary, all the Saints, before the whole company of Heaven, and to you, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed through my fault, my own fault, my own most grievous fault. Wherefore I pray Holy Mary, all the Saints of God and you, to pray for me.
from: http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/english.htm

but St. Tikhon's general confession is like this:
Almighty God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, maker of all
things, judge of all men; We acknowledge and bewail our manifold
sins and wickedness, which we, from time to time, most grievously
have committed, By thought, word, and deed, against thy Divine
Majesty, Provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against
us. We do earnestly repent, and are heartily sorry for these our
misdoings; the remembrance of them is grievous unto us; the
burden of them is intolerable. Have mercy upon us, have mercy
upon us, most merciful Father; For thy Son our Lord Jesus
Christ's sake, forgive us all that is past; and grant that we may
ever hereafter serve and please thee in newness of life. To the
honor and glory of thy Name; through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
now you see why I would prefer St. Tikhon's episcopalian-based rite?

[MariaRegina]

I just don't like the "provoking Thy Wrath" bit.

Sounds too protestant.

I really like the Sarum version over the Antiochian version.

[ByzantineDixie]

ooookkkkk...
...

that is from: http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/liturgy.htm

then there's this:
...

from: http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/sarum.htm

and this: ...

from: http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/english.htm

but St. Tikhon's general confession is like this:

now you see why I would prefer St. Tikhon's episcopalian-based rite?

I am confused. In my Orthodox Missal approved by the Western Rite Vicariate both the general confession in the St. Tikhon liturgy and and in the St. Gregory liturgy are IDENTICAL, except for the parentheses around (the) in St. John the Baptist.

Now in the Western Rite Service Book (which I understand is limited in use to one congregation, St. Andrew's in Eustis, Florida) the only difference in liturgies when compared to the Orthodox Missal is the word "father" is replaced by the word "brethren" in both liturgies. Both are identical as well.

Where did you get the version of St. Tikhon's which you posted?

Edit: This is the version in the Orthodox Missal for both liturgies

I confess to God Almighty, to Blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John (the) Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the Saints, and to thee, father, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed, by my fault, by my own fault, by my own most grievous fault. Wherefore I beg blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and thee, father, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

[pjw]

I just don't like the "provoking Thy Wrath" bit.

Sounds too protestant.

I really like the Sarum version over the Antiochian version.
well, I'll be honest, and say that I've never been to a Lutheran, Anglican, or Orthodox service. (I have stood in the back of a Roman Catholic church during a Friday mass once, but I missed some of the service). I have a copy of the Book of Common Prayer, and I really like it. when I heard that there was an Orthodox liturgy based on the Book of Common Prayer, i looked into it to see what it was like. the first thing I found was this: http://gwjolly.org/liturgy/salisbury/liturgy.pdf , which is based very strongly on the BCP, but is not the official liturgy. then I found St. Tikhon's Liturgy, which is very similar to the BCP, with some references back to the first edition. orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF , and thought it was pretty good too.

[pjw]

Where did you get the version of St. Tikhon's which you posted?
I got it here... http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/tikhon.PDF .
there may be two versions. however, St. Tikhon's should be based almost entirely on the BCP. for the Russian observations on the BCP leading to St. Tikhon's liturgy: http://orthodoxanglican.net/downloads/russian.PDF

[MariaRegina]

The Divine Liturgy in the Eastern and Western Rites aren't really standardized.

Different priests with the permission of the Bishops have translated different versions and you will notice this if you travel to different churches and different jurisdictions .... these are just translational variations from using the Slavonic, the Greek, the Arabic, the Romanian, the Ukranian, the Carpo-Ruthenians who converted to Orthodoxy, the French, the Spanish, etc.

[EricTheRed]

are all Antiochian Christian Archdiocese of North America western rite?

[MariaRegina]

I learned this the hard way.

Always pick up a servicebook whenever you are visiting a new church especially when travelling. The Nicene Creed is sure to have small translational variations. And I usually stumble.

[MariaRegina]

are all Antiochian Christian Archdiocese of North America western rite?

NO, only a small minority.

[ByzantineDixie]

The Divine Liturgy in the Eastern and Western Rites aren't really standardized.

Different priests with the permission of the Bishops have translated different versions and you will notice this if you travel to different churches and different jurisdictions .... these are just translational variations from using the Slavonic, the Greek, the Arabic, the Romanian, the Ukranian, the Carpo-Ruthenians who converted to Orthodoxy, the French, the Spanish, etc.

Translational differences I would understand but the confession pjw lists is far different than the others...so it's more that a translation variation, right?

I followed the link you posted, jpw, and I don't think that the "Orthodox Anglican Communion" is big "O" Orthodox. It is for that reason that I think the text of the confession you prefer is suspect.

I welcome correction in any of this. Thank you.

[MariaRegina]

Translational differences I would understand but the confession pjw lists is far different than the others...so it's more that a translation variation, right?

I followed the link you posted, jpw, and I don't think that the "Orthodox Anglican Communion" is big "O" Orthodox. It is for that reason that I think the text of the confession you prefer is suspect.

I welcome correction in any of this. Thank you.

Interesting ... maybe they are in the process of discovering their Orthodox Roots but haven't made the commitment yet.

[choirfiend]

Liking the means of worship is one thing, but ultimately, one likes the Church because it teaches the truth, and the means of worship, while vital (I dont know what I think about this creation of a western rite-it feels too artificial) are secondary to the Truth about Christ and His Body, the Church.

One accepts the Church, not a mere rite, or else one simply could attend a Protestant church that used one of those rites.

[pjw]

Translational differences I would understand but the confession pjw lists is far different than the others...so it's more that a translation variation, right?

I followed the link you posted, jpw, and I don't think that the "Orthodox Anglican Communion" is big "O" Orthodox. It is for that reason that I think the text of the confession you prefer is suspect.

I welcome correction in any of this. Thank you.
the orthodox anglican communion is not eastern orthodox. it is a group of churches wanting to return to the roots of anglicanism, they maintain that they are the 'orthodox church of the west,' and wanting to prove that anglicanism is still part of the catholic church. in their downloads section they include what it says is the liturgy of St. Tikhon, and what OrthodoxWiki links to as the liturgy of St. Tikhon, as well as statements from different Orthodox churches declaring that Anglican ordinations are valid, the Russian church's commentary on the Anglican prayer-books and sacraments, as well as statements on roman catholicism, the pope, &c.

Interesting ... maybe they are in the process of discovering their Orthodox Roots but haven't made the commitment yet.
i think they already regard themselves as Orthodox.

[Mary of Bethany]

we have a western rite ROCOR church in launceston (about 150 km away), but I think they're catholic rite, not episcopalian, and I don't think I'd be at all comfortable in that. we have no antiochian churches in my state at the moment. I think I'd prefer to be in a Byzantine-rite church than a catholic-rite one, but only if the liturgy was in English.

Well, I guess that answers my question about whether you're anywhere near Fort Worth, Texas! LOL!

Mary

[Mary of Bethany]

The confession you posted from St. Tikhon's liturgy is word for word the same as we said in the Anglican Catholic Church from the 1928 BCP.

Mary

[Xpycoctomos]

Frankly, the only thing that concerns me about the Western Rite is that it did not spring forth orgnaically from the Church, rather it was (re)creation in response toa growing need. My guess is that it will take a good while to work out kinks in the WR DL, but in the end i think it is a good thing and i would most certainly attend one if I could. i am glad it is out there for people who otherwise would find it next to impossible to get over the ethnic stumbling block.

Western piety is wonderful (kneeling and all) and I hope in the future there are more and more of these Churches and that this Rite truly becomes a very organic part of the Orthodox Church at large.

It will be a tough process and long... but it seems necessary to me.

[pjw]

The confession you posted from St. Tikhon's liturgy is word for word the same as we said in the Anglican Catholic Church from the 1928 BCP.
I wouldn't be surprised, as St. Tikhon's liturgy is meant to be an adaptation of the BCP, with the filioque removed, prayers for the dead added, mention made of the intercession of the saints, an epiclesis added, and a couple of other minor changes.
this is from http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite#Liturgy
North American Western Rite parishes generally follow one (or sometimes both) of two types of traditional Western liturgical traditions. The majority celebrate the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow, which is an adaptation of the Communion service from the 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer and The Anglican Missal in the American Edition, as their Sunday liturgy. Until 1977, all Western Rite parishes celebrated only the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great, which is a modified form of the ancient Mass known to Roman Catholics before the liturgical reforms of Vatican II in the 1960s. Many parishes within the Western Rite Vicariate continue to celebrate the Gregorian liturgy. However, most WRV parishes celebrate more than one weekly liturgy, and many of the Tikhonite parishes celebrate the Gregorian liturgy on weekdays. The complete Roman rite of Benediction is also authorized.

[ByzantineDixie]

Frankly, the only thing that concerns me about the Western Rite is that it did not spring forth orgnaically from the Church, rather it was (re)creation in response toa growing need. My guess is that it will take a good while to work out kinks in the WR DL, but in the end i think it is a good thing and i would most certainly attend one if I could. i am glad it is out there for people who otherwise would find it next to impossible to get over the ethnic stumbling block.

Western piety is wonderful (kneeling and all) and I hope in the future there are more and more of these Churches and that this Rite truly becomes a very organic part of the Orthodox Church at large.

It will be a tough process and long... but it seems necessary to me.

I am certainly not an expert on WR but as far as springing forth organically I would think St. Gregory's liturgy qualifies...it was an accepted liturgy in the Church before the schism. The problem is the Western break from Orthodoxy...and the void between then and now. I don't know the origin's of the Anglican Liturgy before St. Tikhon adapted it--that may have come later? I really should look that up.

Now...I should hope the Orthodox church doesn't rely on WR to address the whole ethnic issue in the US! I think there needs to be more that a rite that appeals to former Roman Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans to deal with the ethnic thing. Then again...maybe it is just a cranky old American woman who doesn't speak a word of Greek attending a Greek parish thing. ;)

[pjw]

is there a Lutheran based Orthodox rite?

[HandmaidenOfGod]

No