Hope for unity among Oriental and Eastern Orthodox.

[villoththoma]

dear friends,

I happen to be from the Indian Orthodox Church which belongs to the Oriental Orthodox communion.
It is very saddening to see the divisions in christianity,..the animosities,the hatred and prejudices.
Even among us Orthodox,.we are divided.

The following is said to be the reason for the division between Oriental and Eastern Orthodox churches:

Council of Chalcedon(AD 451)

Oriental Orthodox- "unity of the Incarnation"..ie Christ has only one nature-Divine.

Eastern Orthodox-" Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) has two natures — one divine and one human, although these were inseparable and only act as one hypostasis.

But from what i read in some sites,this is only the trouble of different terminologies for the same thing.

Actually both of them happened to be saying the very same thing...only in two different expressions!
We both worship the God in Christ.The human aspect of Christ is mingled with the divine aspect according to eastern orthodox....very true indeed.
"The human aspect is absorbed into the divine aspect and ceases to exist"--says a Joint declaration of both.

The Oriental orthodox back in AD 451 had to deal with many regional heresies at that time,like Nestorianism(Nestorianism is the doctrine that J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)esus existed as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, rather than as a unified person)
And they confused the Eastern orthodox interpretation with nestorianism...sadly and caused this unfortunate division...

from some sites:

Report of the international theological dialogue between the Oriental Orthodox family of churches and the World Alliance of Reformed Churches (1993-2001):

"Both sides agree in rejecting the teaching which separates or divides the human nature, both soul and body in Christ, from his divine nature or reduces the union of the natures to the level of conjoining. Both sides also agree in rejecting the teaching which confuses the human nature in Christ with the divine nature so that the former is absorbed in the latter and thus ceases to exist."
http://www.warc.ch/dt/erl1/21.html
Joint Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches.(1990) :

"Both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition, though they have used Christological terms in different ways."

http://www.orthodoxunity.org/

When can we look forward to unity in Orthodoxy?Afterall the Oriental and eastern orthodox have more in common with each other than with any other..

Dont you think so too?? Or is there something else,..some more serious aspects to this division that im ignorant of?

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity". [Psalms 133:1]

"Make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose". [Philippians 4:2]

[Petronius]

When can we look forward to unity in Orthodoxy?Afterall the Oriental and eastern orthodox have more in common with each other than with any other..

Dont you think so too?? Or is there something else,..some more serious aspects to this division that im ignorant of?

I think that this on its way to normalise, it will take some time more just for administrative reasons: in some places there are two Patriarchates and it is waited that one see become vacant so all reunite under one see.... In other places theer are still discussions, but all is directed into reunification....

[Xpycoctomos]

Differences or not, I must say that I am with you all the way in prayer when it comes to all of the Persecutions you (especially the coptic breathern in Egypt) undergo. Whether I should or not, during times of extreme persecution on the OO Churches... i feel as if it were my own... more so than Catholic or not.

So, despite where I may stand on the who miaphysite controversy, knwo that i am with your Coptic brethern and others who are persecuted for the faith so viciously. Of course this goes the same for any Christian and in a special way for Catholics... but even more intensly for OOs... don't know why exactly.. I just feel that way.

John

[Xpycoctomos]

Oriental Orthodox- "unity of the Incarnation"..ie Christ has only one nature-Divine.



Well... ya see, this is a problem... it's amissing at least one important word "Human". I thought this was exactly what OOs were defending themselves against. Am I misreading something?

John

[Orthosdoxa]

I REALLY hope this doesn't turn into another controversy in here... we are more alike than we are different... but we are still out of communion. I pray that someday we will be back together. And I most definitely pray for my Coptic brethren, now that there is a fundamentalist Muslim majority in the Egyptian gov't, after recent elections. The OO have suffered much under the hands of the devil's religion, Islam. May God be with them!

LK

[Monica, child of God]

Welcome!

We both worship the God in Christ.The human aspect of Christ is mingled with the divine aspect according to eastern orthodox....very true indeed.
"The human aspect is absorbed into the divine aspect and ceases to exist"--says a Joint declaration of both.

This sounds very un-Orthodox to me.

Monica

[orthodoxy]

villoththoma,



Council of Chalcedon(AD 451)

Oriental Orthodox- "unity of the Incarnation"..ie Christ has only one nature-Divine.

Eastern Orthodox-" Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) has two natures — one divine and one human, although these were inseparable and only act as one hypostasis.

But from what i read in some sites,this is only the trouble of different terminologies for the same thing.


Let me ask:

is the physical manifestation of Jesus Christ in the Church on earth "shallowed up" in the mystery of the unseen divine light"? No, there is one visible, tangible reality and one mysterion heavenly reality contained in the one person of Jesus Christ.

Actually both of them happened to be saying the very same thing...only in two different expressions!

I am sorry this is simply not true. This is why there is division.

We both worship the God in Christ.The human aspect of Christ is mingled with the divine aspect according to eastern orthodox....very true indeed.

There is no confusion between the divine nature of Jesus Christ and His Human nature. So we have two paradigms (again :doh: ) which makes "another jesus".

"The human aspect is absorbed into the divine aspect and ceases to exist"--says a Joint declaration of both.

No and this is what the 451 ad council dealt with and rejected.


The Oriental orthodox back in AD 451 had to deal with many regional heresies at that time,like Nestorianism(Nestorianism is the doctrine that J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)esus existed as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, rather than as a unified person)


Two natures in one person. That is orthodox understanding. Not two natures melded into one nature "divine".

And they confused the Eastern orthodox interpretation with nestorianism...sadly and caused this unfortunate division...

I am certain the Coptic Church retains the belief of "mingling" the two natures. Confusion reins when groups begin to create novelty beyond what has always been understood, unfortunately.


"Both sides agree in rejecting the teaching which separates or divides the human nature, both soul and body in Christ, from his divine nature or reduces the union of the natures to the level of conjoining. Both sides also agree in rejecting the teaching which confuses the human nature in Christ with the divine nature so that the former is absorbed in the latter and thus ceases to exist."
http://www.warc.ch/dt/erl1/21.html
Joint Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches.(1990) :

"Both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition, though they have used Christological terms in different ways."

http://www.orthodoxunity.org/

When can we look forward to unity in Orthodoxy?


I believe it is happening. Fact is a parishioner at our parish is working with the head of the Coptic Church in Egypt to mend this "misunderstanding".

I am curious. Are you in the syrian eastern orthodox church outside of india?

http://www.marthomaorthodoxchurch.com/history.html

Does Bishop Verson Ashe ring a bell?

kyril

[Wiffey]

I also hope for unity...

God bless all who sow the seeds of love and respect and brotherhood. :thumbsup:

[Maximus]

It was my hope - now shattered - not to see another thread like this one here in TAW for a good long while.

I hope that all people will repent and be baptized (if they have not yet been baptized) in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and enter the Holy Orthodox Church.

It is my hope that the Non-Chalcedonians will repent of their errors and enter the Holy Orthodox Church.

1. Non-Chalcedonians reject four of the seven holy ecumenical councils.

It is impossible to do that and be Orthodox.

2. Non-Chalcedonians revere as saints and fathers men like Dioscorus, Timothy Aelurus, Timothy Mongus, Peter the Fuller, and Severus of Antioch, all of whom were anathematized as heresiarchs by the Orthodox Fathers in their holy councils.

It is impossible to revere such men and their teachings and be Orthodox.

3. Non-Chalcedonian leaders still write and say that our Lord Jesus has but one nature (Monophysitism) and one will (Monothelitism), both of which beliefs were condemned by the Orthodox Fathers at their holy councils. Both of these erroneous teachings were taught by the men that Non-Chalcedonians revere as saints and fathers, so it is not surprising that Non-Chalcedonian leaders still espouse them.

It is impossible to say and write and publish such things and be Orthodox.

4. Non-Chalcedonians and their leaders still consider certain Orthodox saints and fathers - like Pope St. Leo the Great - heretics.

It is impossible to thus dishonor the holy saints and fathers and be Orthodox.

I regard sincere Non-Chalcedonians as Christians. I do not pass judgment on their salvation. In fact, I hope to see them in heaven.

Just the same, they are most certainly NOT Orthodox.

There can be no unity with them until they repudiate their errors.

[ExOrienteLux]

YMSSRABGIT Maximus again.

Stupid Nazis...

-Philip.

[villoththoma]

Dear friends,

Oriental Orthodox are called "monophysite" churches by the Eastern,....because our fathers say Christ has only one nature...that is divine..

While the eastern fathers said Christ has human and divine natures acting as one hypostasis...

Honestly,..i do not understand which is right,...but i do not think this should be a cause for such deep divisions as we have seen.

This one idea or interpretation of faith has brought so much divisions,prejudices and grief among the Orthodox....
i feel the Eastern Orthodox brethren treat the protestants and catholics with more affection that us orientals......do not forget we are your closest brethren in christian tradition,worship and faith.
We tend to forget how much we have in common.....

and dear orthodoxy,
no im not part of the foreign church you mentioned.

There are only two Orthodox churches in India:

1.The Indian Orthodox Church or the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.
2.Syrian Orthodox Church or the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church.(under the antiochian Patriarch)

I belong to the former,the Indian Orthodox Church,which is the independent,indigenous church of India,...with 100% indian leadership....
We are under the throne of St.Thomas of India.....the only church in the world under the throne of St.Thomas.
Our church was established by St.Thomas,disciple of Christ and Apostle of India in AD 52.(Even St.Peter reached Rome only in AD 64).So we are among the oldest christians in the world.
We were first governed from Edessa in Persia(the earlier throne of St.Thomas),during the first centuries,...but later our links with them broke,....due to many factors like the rise of Islam and the advent of the Portuguese colonials(catholic) in India.
But we still have many persian traditions,.we still use the syriac-aramaic liturgy.

The throne of St.Thomas and the Catholicate of the East was re-established in India in 1912,ending centuries of foreign domination.The headquarters of our church is in kottayam,Kerala(a state in south india)...and we are guided by His Holiness Baselios Marthoma Didimos the First Catholicos Bava.,who is the successor of St.Thomas,the Catholicos of India and a humble servant of Christ.
There are about 3 million Indian Orthodox beleivers in india who are faithful to the throne of St.Thomas.
We are not subject to any persecution as some of you mentioned,....as we are very much part of Indian society and our state of Kerala has a very high christian population(24%).Christians are the most prosperous and politically influential minority in our state,.even our chief minister is an orthodox christian.
We are often said to be "christian in religion,hindu in culture and hebrew-syriac in worship."During the medieval age,hindu kings accorded high caste status to the st.thomas christians,..and often granted lands and money to build churches.There was even a christian royal family at one time,ruling over a part of kerala.

plz visit the following sites,if you would like to know more;

www.orthodoxsyrianchurch.com (http://www.orthodoxsyrianchurch.com/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_Nasrani

www.orthodoxherald.com (http://www.orthodoxherald.com/)

www.malankara.org (http://www.malankara.org/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Orthodox_Church

[ephraimanesti]

DEAR BROTHER IN CHRIST villoththoma,

Unfortunately, my Brother, "the animosities, the hatred and prejudices" of which you speak are alive and well at TAW; fortunately, i believe the light and love at TAW far outweighs the darkness, so i hope you will have the courage to continue speaking God's truth instead of allowing yourself to be shouted down by those who are more focused on clinging, in the darkness, to their little piece of the Truth than on allowing the Light to shine, illuminating that which is all TRUTH.
The delusion that there is any REAL difference or TRUE separation between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox CHURCH (singular!!!!!), other than in our own minds, is just another example of satan making good usage of his ability to "divide and conquer." He used this power of divisive delusion in 1054, he used it again in 451 at Chalcedon through, as you say, misunderstandings and misinterpretations, butchering the Body of Christ by ignoring Saint Paul's admonition to "strive not about words to no profit"; and yet today he continues to keep the Orthodox Church from rising to its full power and glory by keeping us arguing, debating, and anathamatizing one another in the name of "truth" while ignoring the wishes of our Lord--who alone is all TRUTH--that we all be one in the same sense that He and the Father and the Holy Spirit are ONE.
{"It was my hope - now shattered - not to see another thread like this one here in TAW for a good long while." :scratch: What in the world is that about, my brother? I am not sure that Saint Maximos would approve, for he stated quite clearly in his Fourth Century on Love (19), "WATCH YOURSELF, LEST THE VICE WHICH SEPARATES YOU FROM YOUR BROTHER LIES NOT IN HIM BUT IN YOURSELF. BE RECONCILED WITH HIM WITHOUT DELAY, SO THAT YOU DO NOT LAPSE FROM THE COMMANDMENT OF LOVE." :amen: Holy Father Saint Maximos, pray to God for us!}

MAY OUR HEARTS BE CLEANSED THAT WE ALL MAY BE ONE!
ephraimanesti

[choirfiend]

I have no hatred for Oriental Orthodox. Some of the founders of our OCF were Indian Orthodox. However, do not presume to know better than our leadership. Reconcilliation is always the goal, however, EO bishops AND OO bishops BOTH are not jumping into unity together. IF we were really teaching the same thing, this schism would not have perservered for so long. Let the bishops, to whom we have given this responsibility in exchange for our obedience, do the determining of with whom we are in unity of teaching. We do not currently believe the same things.

[EricTheRed]

I really hope unity happens soon. For this goal we should all be praying :crosseo:

[Lotar]

Do my eyes decieve me, or did someone actually quote St. Maximus to support union with Monophysites? :doh:

It has nothing to do with "prejudice". The Trinity and the Incarnation just happen to be the two central dogmas of the Orthodox Church.

[EricTheRed]

Do my eyes decieve me, or did someone actually quote St. Maximus to support union with Monophysites? :doh:

It has nothing to do with "prejudice". The Trinity and the Incarnation just happen to be the two central dogmas of the Orthodox Church.

sorry im not well informed on the subject what are you talking about?

[villoththoma]

Sorry,if my thread was inappropriate,..i didnt intend it as a debate or discussion.But only as a goodwill gesture,....to remind you how much we respect the Eastern orthodox and how we'd love to see a united Orthodox people.



btw,what is the TAW?

[EricTheRed]

This forum. The Ancient Way

[Lotar]

sorry im not well informed on the subject what are you talking about?

St. Maximus the Confessor had his arm and tongue cut off for his being outspoken against the Monothelite heresy (that Christ only has one will), which was meant as a compromise with the Monophysites in order to bring them back into the Church.

[EricTheRed]

ohh ok thanks

[Petronius]

Sorry,if my thread was inappropriate,..i didnt intend it as a debate or discussion.But only as a goodwill gesture,....to remind you how much we respect the Eastern orthodox and how we'd love to see a united Orthodox people.

btw,what is the TAW?

It is OK, it is nice to see people from your church here and find some new things about orthodox Christians in kerala...
Unfortunatelly, here at TAW, we can not decide when and how to realise Unity, this belongs to our Hierarchs.... We can only pray.
We should consider that the OOC separated from OC in 451 and is missing 4 Ecumenical Councils.
The RCC separeted 600 years later, it recognizes all 7 Ecumenical Counsils, but after that introduced many many changes.
The present day situation looks like achieving re-unification looks much more feasable and more advanced between EO and OO than between EO and RCC. Again, I appreciate (and I think all our O brethen here) your call for unity, but we can only discuss, but we can not decide.

I have a question for my O brethen here, probably good for new thread:

- if you were living in a place, where only OO and RC churches were accessible, what would be more aappropiate to attend: the OO or the RC one ?

[erinipassi]

Hi Orthodoxy,

I would like to refer to your comment which you have spoken about the Coptic Orthodox Church and its a statement that is incorrect:


I am certain the Coptic Church retains the belief of "mingling" the two natures. Confusion reins when groups begin to create novelty beyond what has always been understood, unfortunately.



The Coptic Orthodox Church believes that the Lord Jesus is fully man and fully Divine that these two natures form one nature called "The One Nature of God the Incarnate Logos" as St Cyril taught us in the third Ecumenical Council.

This one Nature contains the human and the Divine nature which co-exists along side one another without mingling or confusion. Just like the soul co-exists together in the body without mingling or confusion to form the One human nature.

You can see what we believe is reflected deeply in our Divine Liturgy of St. Basil when the priests says every sunday:

"Amen, Amen, Amen. I believe, I believe, I believe and profess unto my last breath, that this is the Life-Giving Body, which Your Only-Begotten Son, our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, took of our lady and queen of us all, the Mother of God, the pure Saint Mary. He made it one with His Divinity without mingling nor interchanging nor alteration. And declared the proper confession before Pontius Pilate. And gave It up willingly on the Holy Cross on our behalf. I believe that His Divinity never departed from His Humanity not even for a single instant nor a twinkling of an eye. Given for the salvation, remission of sins and eternal life to those who partake of them. I believe; I believe, I believe that this is true. Amen."
http://www.copticchurch.org/Texts/Spirituals/Stbaslt.pdf

So like the body is made one with the soul but the soul doesnt mingle and co-exists side by side with the body. The expression which says "made it one" is exactly like saying made it part of ....the soul doesn't exist outside the body nor the body outside the soul....they are both under the one nature of the human nature.

love and blessings
erini

[Maximus]

Why is it that we are periodically subjected to threads like this one from Non-Chalcedonians, in which links to non-Orthodox propaganda web sites are freely posted along with erroneous, very heterodox arguments?

I wonder how long a similar thread would last here if it were posted by a Baptist or a Roman Catholic?

Don't the Non-Chalcedonians still have their own forum?

[Akathist]

Closing thread for the peace and harmony of the forum.

Guests have been allowed to post corrections to false statements about their faith in TAW, BTW, but can not debate. (If you do not receive a pm from a mod, no violation of the rules were determined.)