Women as Pastors - No Go?

[SteelDisciple]

So...last night I read about Women being silent in the church and not talking...which obviously means they can't become pastors. (I think)

But...on the other hand i've seen women with an obvious blessing from God in order to preach His word. I know in the culture at the time (and even today) it was customary for women to be considered silent and to always let the husband speak. Women back then were 2nd class citizens. And yet...today..I see women who have been blessed with ministries that they run through God.

So..which is it? I mean..how can women be blessed with great ministries..and yet in the bible it says they can't even talk in chuch?

[JFrench]

Here's a Christian article that accurately answers the questions about women in ministry...

http://www.charismamag.com/a.php?ArticleID=756

[SteelDisciple]

Thanks! That answered everything. :)

[holo]

The problem is you're trying to live according to the letter instead of the Spirit.

[josiahoftenn]

Women aren't supposed to teach men about the bible as in preaching in the church to men.They can teack teens and other women though.

[holo]

Women aren't supposed to teach men about the bible as in preaching in the church to men.They can teack teens and other women though.Because...?

[Entertaining_Angels]

I believe the Bible is quite clear on the role of women in the Church. Women have important roles but pastoring is not one of them.

God bless.

[ghs1994]

Qualifications of a pastor:

Titus 1:6 If a man is blameless, the husband of one wife,..... NKJV

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop must then be blameless, the husband of one wife,...NKJV

Depending on the version used, it may be gender neutral, meaning "anyone". Those are the dangers of the dynamic versions, but that's another thread. I think this is pretty much self explanatory. I believe very much there are very godly women out there who can teach and do teach men. There's no need for interpretation here.

[xxclixxx]

Personally I agree that women shouldn't be preaching. However, I also know that God can still use women in very powerful ways. Too many times to people go way to one side or the other, really Men need to be in leadership, but women need to be involved in the Church too.

People also need to stop with the "Women's rights" stuff. God designed men and women to have different qualities that are better than the others. So why not utilize these qualities instead of trying to push for other ones? I'd rather use the qualities God has given me than my humanly self, and let my wife do the things God has given her the abilities to do.

[heatherq17]

I agree with josiahoftenn vbmenu_register("postmenu_20342176", true); and OreGal vbmenu_register("postmenu_20343265", true);

[dancin' moosen]

Titus 1:6 If a man is blameless, the husband of one wife,..... NKJV

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop must then be blameless, the husband of one wife,...NKJV

Hi there,
I just wanted to say that we should be careful with this one. I'm pretty sure that the context of this is emphasizing that the bishop or church leader should be respectful of his wife, keeping one and not participating in the wife swapping that was popular in those days. It's emphasizing the Man's integrity to his marraige oaths, and the humanity of the Woman (as she is not to be treated as property, but as a human being), as opposed to emphasizing the masculinity of the bishop. We have to be careful with context.

Because Paul also lists several women as ministers, with specifications to suggest that they were only in certain appropriate roles. We cannot simply jump to the conclusion that Men are only gifted as preachers or teachers, when there seems to be biblical evidence of Women gifted in these same ways as well.

I know that there is a lot more to this discussion, I just thought I'd speak to that one point.

Maybe just to end I'd like to point out that it is not our maleness or our femaleness that gives us the authority to preach the gospel - only through the power of Jesus Christ do we have the priviledge.

God Bless,
D'M

[Followers4christ]

I believe the Bible made it clear that women are not to be head of a church as stated in 1 CORINTHIANS 14:35 and 1 Tim 2:12-15.I believe women can preach the Gospel to other women and to children.Women do have important roles but being the head of a church is not one of them.Sites like http://www.charismamag.com/a.php?ArticleID=756 are very deceiving because God made the bible through his apostles as stated in 2 TIMOTHY 3:16 and 2 PETER 1:20.So if God spoke through his apostles and the Author of the Bible is actually God What does that tell you.It tells you that God tells women not to be head of church.The apostles are not saying this but God,So when you obey the Bible teaching your following Gods teachings.God Bless :)

[ghs1994]

Titus 1:6 If a man is blameless, the husband of one wife,..... NKJV

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop must then be blameless, the husband of one wife,...NKJV

Hi there,
I just wanted to say that we should be careful with this one. I'm pretty sure that the context of this is emphasizing that the bishop or church leader should be respectful of his wife, keeping one and not participating in the wife swapping that was popular in those days. It's emphasizing the Man's integrity to his marraige oaths, and the humanity of the Woman (as she is not to be treated as property, but as a human being), as opposed to emphasizing the masculinity of the bishop. We have to be careful with context.

Because Paul also lists several women as ministers, with specifications to suggest that they were only in certain appropriate roles. We cannot simply jump to the conclusion that Men are only gifted as preachers or teachers, when there seems to be biblical evidence of Women gifted in these same ways as well.

I know that there is a lot more to this discussion, I just thought I'd speak to that one point.

Maybe just to end I'd like to point out that it is not our maleness or our femaleness that gives us the authority to preach the gospel - only through the power of Jesus Christ do we have the priviledge.

God Bless,
D'M

Well.......

I must say your off just a bit on that, there are passages in Eph. 5 that talk about loving wives, this is specific towards a pastor being a man of one wife, not a wife of one husband. Turning that around is rearranging God's Word.

[Gentle]

The problem is you're trying to live according to the letter instead of the Spirit.:thumbsup:

[Deiesous]

I believe the Bible is quite clear on the role of women in the Church. Women have important roles but pastoring is not one of them.

God bless.

Ditto... though im not 100% sure. Still learning :D

[dancin' moosen]

Well.......

I must say your off just a bit on that, there are passages in Eph. 5 that talk about loving wives, this is specific towards a pastor being a man of one wife, not a wife of one husband. Turning that around is rearranging God's Word.

Hi there,
If you notice, I didn't actually turn the passage around to speak to women at all. I was simply responding to someone elses use of the Timothy passages I had quoted, and my point was not that it was speaking both to men and women, all I was trying to say is that the use of that passage as a response to women pastors is misleading because the emphasis is "a man OF ONE WIFE", not "a MAN of one wife".

Sorry if that was unclear.
Blessings,
D'M

[ghs1994]

Hi there,
If you notice, I didn't actually turn the passage around to speak to women at all. I was simply responding to someone elses use of the Timothy passages I had quoted, and my point was not that it was speaking both to men and women, all I was trying to say is that the use of that passage as a response to women pastors is misleading because the emphasis is "a man OF ONE WIFE", not "a MAN of one wife".

Sorry if that was unclear.
Blessings,
D'M

I hope I didn't sound mean or anything. I just try and discuss things and hope God will work on their hearts as well as mine. God bless ya.

[justinstout]

So...last night I read about Women being silent in the church and not talking...which obviously means they can't become pastors. (I think)

But...on the other hand i've seen women with an obvious blessing from God in order to preach His word. I know in the culture at the time (and even today) it was customary for women to be considered silent and to always let the husband speak. Women back then were 2nd class citizens. And yet...today..I see women who have been blessed with ministries that they run through God.

So..which is it? I mean..how can women be blessed with great ministries..and yet in the bible it says they can't even talk in chuch?

The verse about women being silent in the church has nothing to do with what people have claimed. There's nothing wrong with a woman being a pastor.

[talitha]

justinstout - I always want to sing "well, shake it up baby now, justinstout" when I see your name, hehe!

anyway, I agree with you.

I have never read anything that shows me that the Lord differentiates between men and women when He gives out spiritual gifts.....

Why would God -- after using women as prophets and judges under the old covenant -- change his mind and decide not to use them anymore as such after Jesus died to set us free? Doesn't make sense to me. But the charisma article does.

blessings in Christ
tal

[martin75]

Why do the gospels get forgotten in this debate?
They show women doing far greater things than being pastors

After the lord was sealed in the tomb, it was Mary alone who first saw him
He chose to give her the message to tell the other male disciples that he was alive

So if a woman can be the first to teach that the lord lives, a woman who actually knew the lord, then I don't see why women can't bring this message to others

There are many times Jesus went against the conventions of his time to include women when he could easily have excluded them had he wanted to

For a start he wouldn't allow Mary to do the housework, preferring to teach her instead. Paul was an apostle but Jesus is lord

Martin

[Entertaining_Angels]

Why do the gospels get forgotten in this debate?
They show women doing far greater things than being pastors

After the lord was sealed in the tomb, it was Mary alone who first saw him
He chose to give her the message to tell the other male disciples that he was alive

So if a woman can be the first to teach that the lord lives, a woman who actually knew the lord, then I don't see why women can't bring this message to others

There are many times Jesus went against the conventions of his time to include women when he could easily have excluded them had he wanted to

For a start he wouldn't allow Mary to do the housework, preferring to teach her instead. Paul was an apostle but Jesus is lord

Martin

And why do people seem to equate pastoring with 'the most important' work a person can do? It is not. Women have equally important roles. We all have our gifts and women can teach. Again, the Bible is really clear on this matter. It is in black and white.

[ghs1994]

And why do people seem to equate pastoring with 'the most important' work a person can do? It is not. Women have equally important roles. We all have our gifts and women can teach. Again, the Bible is really clear on this matter. It is in black and white.

Nice.

[Key]

I believe, from what I have read of the Life of Jesus, if a woman had chosen to preach the word of God and the Salvation of Christ, he would have let preach, and given her his blessing.

Now, I am sure there are lines, that might make it seem that Woman can not be "Pastors" but didnt the bible say.

Galatians 3:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

This seems pretty clear on the Issue.

When it comes to Christ, all can do all in His name. There are no Limitations based on Race, Status, or Gender.

Could I be wrong?
Sure.
This is Just my two Bits.

God Bless.
Key.

[justinstout]

I believe, from what I have read of the Life of Jesus, if a woman had chosen to preach the word of God and the Salvation of Christ, he would have let preach, and given her his blessing.

Now, I am sure there are lines, that might make it seem that Woman can not be "Pastors" but didnt the bible say.

Galatians 3:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

This seems pretty clear on the Issue.

When it comes to Christ, all can do all in His name. There are no Limitations based on Race, Status, or Gender.

Could I be wrong?
Sure.
This is Just my two Bits.

God Bless.
Key.

Amen!

:thumbsup:

[mark53]

Amen!

:thumbsup:
A(wo)men!

[mbams]

God designed men and women to have different qualities that are better than the others. So why not utilize these qualities instead of trying to push for other ones? I'd rather use the qualities God has given me than my humanly self, and let my wife do the things God has given her the abilities to do.

Hmmm...So what exactly are the “qualities” exclusively given to men, and what are the specific “qualities” or “abilities” exclusively given to women? And how to these “qualities” or “abilities” make a difference as to whether a woman can be a pastor?

[Key]

A(wo)men!

Ok that was funny!

God Bless
Key

[Godslilgurlalways]

Believe me a woman can become a pastor women was the first ones to carry the words. And also they became wise before men. Who was the first one to carry Mary(btw, I don't worship her I am using him being birth this way) Jesus is and word the word she carried the word for nine months eve was the first to eat of the fruit from the tree of life. That is why you don't see boys having babies it's women.Mary and I think the other was marhter who went to the tomb where the angels told them that he is no longer dead which they told everyone else.By this you would think more women would be preaching than men it's werid.A girl/mother has for her child is the closest love on earth there is even though God is much higher than that.

[Knight]

I believe, from what I have read of the Life of Jesus, if a woman had chosen to preach the word of God and the Salvation of Christ, he would have let preach, and given her his blessing.

Now, I am sure there are lines, that might make it seem that Woman can not be "Pastors" but didnt the bible say.

Galatians 3:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

This seems pretty clear on the Issue.

When it comes to Christ, all can do all in His name. There are no Limitations based on Race, Status, or Gender.

Could I be wrong?
Sure.
This is Just my two Bits.

God Bless.
Key.

One thing about the passage you mentioned. This only refers to our standing in Christ not the roles God has planned for us. Men and Women are equal in value to Him but unique in roles.

[covenantwmn]

I have been blessed to know a woman who was "co-pastor" with her husband. It was clear he was the main authority, but she was equal to him. It was wonderful, I received much healing from her ministry. They did it beautifully, working in tandem. I think women can certainly be pastors, I don't know about a single woman, that would be difficult, as it would be for a man. I know the men in our church were blessed by her sermons, tho they were rare.
in Him, Leslie

[Godslilgurlalways]

I have been blessed to know a woman who was "co-pastor" with her husband. It was clear he was the main authority, but she was equal to him. It was wonderful, I received much healing from her ministry. They did it beautifully, working in tandem. I think women can certainly be pastors, I don't know about a single woman, that would be difficult, as it would be for a man. I know the men in our church were blessed by her sermons, tho they were rare.
in Him, LeslieI agee with you 100% I learn from both my pastor and co-pastor pastor guy co girl that a man or woman can be one many are called few are choosen a woman stands beside her husand not behind and not in front in the site of God they are one a man needs a woman to help him just as a woman needs a man to her her it's teamwork

[Lightmyway]

So...last night I read about Women being silent in the church and not talking...which obviously means they can't become pastors. (I think)

But...on the other hand i've seen women with an obvious blessing from God in order to preach His word. I know in the culture at the time (and even today) it was customary for women to be considered silent and to always let the husband speak. Women back then were 2nd class citizens. And yet...today..I see women who have been blessed with ministries that they run through God.

So..which is it? I mean..how can women be blessed with great ministries..and yet in the bible it says they can't even talk in chuch?

I would say that if they are having a calling they should do it because mabe God thinks that is whats best for them, but I could be wrong.

[Knight]

Let's not forget one thing. What we think about this is not as important as what Scripture teaches on it.

Feelings are fine. Experiences (good and bad) are also fine but all must be subject to Scriptural teaching.

[Entertaining_Angels]

Let's not forget one thing. What we think about this is not as important as what Scripture teaches on it.

Feelings are fine. Experiences (good and bad) are also fine but all must be subject to Scriptural teaching.

I agree and interesting that you should post this. I was thinking earlier today about the churches I've attended in which women were pastors. They tended to be more 'experience' and 'emotionally' based and less-Biblically based. Again, though, that has just been my experience and part of the reason I feel so convicted on this issue.

God bless.

[*Starlight*]

One thing about the passage you mentioned. This only refers to our standing in Christ not the roles God has planned for us. Men and Women are equal in value to Him but unique in roles.
Can you tell me some examples of things which, according to you, can be done only by people of one gender and not the other? :)

[Knight]

Can you tell me some examples of things which, according to you, can be done only by people of one gender and not the other? :)

Well, last I checked only women could have babies.

In the immediate context of this discussion I think the Bible is clear that men are intended as leaders in the home and church.

I'll wager that many will not agree with my assessment and that is ok. But please understand that my views are derived from Scripture not forced upon it.

[*Starlight*]

Well, last I checked only women could have babies.
I agree... that's because of different anatomy. :)

Now, what female attributes prevent women from being good pastors so much that God would forbid them to do it?

[davidslaysgoliath]

I don't see anything wrong with a woman being a pastor.

Many of the passages in the Bible used to teach against women as pastors are taken completely out of context. Within the kingdom of God, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female... etc..

[Knight]

I agree... that's because of different anatomy. :)

Well, you asked for examples and this is an obvious one.

Now, what female attributes prevent women from being good pastors so much that God would forbid them to do it?

I see where this is going....

I will not be drawn into a huge spitting contest that turns into a "battle of the sexes." The Scriptural teaching is quite clear on this matter. God has designed men and women to be different. This includes a difference in roles and responsibilities but an equality in value and worth.

Your issue is with the Bible and not with me.

[Knight]

This website can answer many of these questions far better than I.

http://www.cbmw.org/questions/

[mbams]

I see where this is going....

I will not be drawn into a huge spitting contest that turns into a "battle of the sexes." The Scriptural teaching is quite clear on this matter. God has designed men and women to be different. This includes a difference in roles and responsibilities but an equality in value and worth.

:scratch: Hmmm... If it is so clear, why are you not able to articulate exactly what they are yourself? Why did you avoid answering the question, and instead infer that this discussing is a “battle of sexes” (which it is obviously not, because both men and women agree and disagree with your position)? You said that we are designed differently for different roles, beyond reproduction, and I am very curious what attributes you find in design, exactly, that prevent women from being a pastor. No spitting fight. I just want to know where you feel you find evidence to defend your statement. :)

[Entertaining_Angels]

I no longer see men and women as equal as I did in my younger days but instead see us as complementary. I think there is much in life we do not understand but will one day. For now, we have our handbook, the Bible, to help us throughout our lives. We can start interpreting Scripture with our own biases but pretty soon we'd be changing much of what is written to suit our own needs (i.e. women can preach, homosexuality is okay, premarital sex is encouraged, etc...). Read your Bibles in context and you'll find God's grace and God's Message. His Message remains the same and remains true.

God bless.

[mbams]

I believe men and women compliment each other, too. But I don’t that means they must be binaries. For instance, a husband and wife pastoral team that share all their pastoral responsibilities together, can really compliment each other. When the husband is teaching, he brings things that his experience as a man helps him understand and share with the congregation. In a similar way, when the wife teaches, she brings her female experiences as well. Working together in this way, they are able to cover more ground, and potentially touch more people.

Amen that the Word is true, and brings is the guidance in our lives! I agree we have to be careful not to read our biases into the text. Having studied history, and the bible, and various passages in depth, in context of the whole, and the culture it was written in, I can see how we read many biases into it today. I personally think that one of them is that men and women are not equal, or that they have such divided roles. After looking at how the church has incorporated various cultural customs into interpretation of the Bible, I was amazed at how ingrained they are into our understanding when reading it.

I also agree that we don’t know all the answers, and never will here on earth. I just want to learn, and seek the truth as much as I can, and trust that I will be awed by the whole story when we meet Him in Heaven.

[Knight]

:scratch: Hmmm... If it is so clear, why are you not able to articulate exactly what they are yourself? Why did you avoid answering the question, and instead infer that this discussing is a “battle of sexes” (which it is obviously not, because both men and women agree and disagree with your position)? You said that we are designed differently for different roles, beyond reproduction, and I am very curious what attributes you find in design, exactly, that prevent women from being a pastor. No spitting fight. I just want to know where you feel you find evidence to defend your statement. :)

I'm avoiding nothing. The discussion is as to what the Bible teaches on this subject. (Or so I thought).

Passages that speak to this have already been presented. I was not asked to present Biblical evedince for my view. I was asked to present evedince as to any differences that would prevent a woman from becoming a pastor. These are not the same question.

To that effect the biggest piece of evedince that a woman should not be a pastor is the Bible. Anything else is supposition on my part and would no doubt result in a heated debate that, frankly, I do not have time to engage in.

Understand that this is not a make or break issue for me. I am convinced through Scripture that God has ordained men to be spiritual leaders in the home and the church and women to be helpers. If you want to disagree with me on this that is fine. I will lose no sleep over it.

My goal for my involvement in this thread has been to draw people's attention back to the Scripture rather than their own thoughts, opinions, and feelings.

[mbams]

My goal for my involvement in this thread has been to draw people's attention back to the Scripture rather than their own thoughts, opinions, and feelings.

Did you feel that people weren’t referring to the Scripture? I just checked back to the pages before you posted and saw many posts mentioning Biblical passages, and not basing reasoning on feelings or emotions. Perhaps I missed a couple posts or something.

[Knight]

Did you feel that people weren’t referring to the Scripture? I just checked back to the pages before you posted and saw many posts mentioning Biblical passages, and not basing reasoning on feelings or emotions. Perhaps I missed a couple posts or something.

There were some indications that the discussion was going in that direction. Also, this particular topic has a long and distinguished history of deviation from Biblical discussion.

Allow me to clarify one thing. When I speak of different roles I am not addressing capability. As far as I know there is no single specific attribute that women possess which makes them incapable of performing pastoral duties. That said, there is a difference between what a person is capable of doing and what their assigned role actually is.

For example, in my job I am assigned the responsibility of writing reports. These are then reviewed and approved by others. Am I capable of reviewing and approving reports? Sure, but that is not the role I have been placed in. (Please don't extend this analogy too far.)

We may be capable of doing many things but we are responsible for the roles that our creator has established for us. This is what I meant originally when I referred to roles.

I apologize for any confusion.

[jasperbound]

This is why I believe women could be pastors. http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fem09.html

[Stinker]

We did NOT examine I Tim 3.11, but, depending on how one understands the word there for women, Paul COULD be talking about female elders. If the term is understood as 'wives', then the passage is silent on the issue; if the term is understood as 'women', then Paul is indicating women elders. (Note: the 'husband of one wife' text is NOT an issue, since standard writing usage for brevity allows that to count for BOTH wife/husband cases...Similar to how we say "brothers" instead of "brothers and sisters" every time.)


"He (candidate for Pastorship) must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity, (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?) (1Tim.3:4-5)

Many times we see the woman in the relationship who fills the billing of this passage of scripture. Not the man in the relationship.

I don't know if women should be disqualified from this leadership position when she may possess all the traits necessary for group leadership, but possesses the wrong body.

[Knight]

The context of 1 Timothy 3:11 is on Deacons not Elders.

There is much honest disagreement among church leaders on a woman's applicability to the office of deacon. The subject at hand is the applicability of a woman's role to the office of elder or pastor.

[jasperbound]

The context of 1 Timothy 3:11 is on Deacons not Elders.

There is much honest disagreement among church leaders on a woman's applicability to the office of deacon. The subject at hand is the applicability of a woman's role to the office of elder or pastor.

I never understood that, considering that Phoebe was a deacon. Of course, perhaps Paul made a typo then, using the same word for deacons that he uses to describe Phoebe.

[Sappheire]

Here's a Christian article that accurately answers the questions about women in ministry...

http://www.charismamag.com/a.php?ArticleID=756


:clap:

[Quentin]

Hi,
I was baptized by a woman preacher. Now do I think women should be preachers? We have one in our church and I see no problem with her being called to lead. I think it is fine.

[holo]

I'm not too sure the whole pastor system, as we know it, is the way to go anyway. I believe there are a whole lot of traditional and stiff ways to organize church which doesn't necessarily have root in the bible, and even if it does, that doesn't mean it's the best way to do it now, everywhere.

I see no logical reason why a woman shouldn't be serving as a pastor, and I see no logical reason to deny her while still allowing men to be long-haired.

[LittlePinky82]

Here's what the Bible says women should do with worship:

1 Corinthians chapter fourteen verses thirty-four and thirty-five: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home;for its disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

And also: First Timothy chapter two verses eleven through fifteen: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one decieved; it was the woman who was decieved and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with properity.

[mbams]

If this means women are really supposed to be “silent”, then how are they supposed to pray and prophesy in the congregation?

[*Starlight*]

Here's what the Bible says women should do with worship:

1 Corinthians chapter fourteen verses thirty-four and thirty-five: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home;for its disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

And also: First Timothy chapter two verses eleven through fifteen: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one decieved; it was the woman who was decieved and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with properity.
That's what people thought at the time when these passages were written. :) These people had the rights to have opinions, but people today have the rights to disagree with them. :pink:

[Entertaining_Angels]

That's what people thought at the time when these passages were written. :) These people had the rights to have opinions, but people today have the rights to disagree with them. :pink:

That is certainly true. Plenty of churches today believe there is nothing wrong with homosexuality or even pre-marital sex. Some even believe that other religions will also lead to Heaven. We all have the right to disagree with what we find in the Bible.

(doesn't make it right though).

[*Starlight*]

That is certainly true. Plenty of churches today believe there is nothing wrong with homosexuality or even pre-marital sex. Some even believe that other religions will also lead to Heaven. We all have the right to disagree with what we find in the Bible.

(doesn't make it right though).
Do you think that people who lived a long time ago are somehow always right about everything, while we aren't? :confused:

[Entertaining_Angels]

No and I am not sure how you'd arrive at that conclusion.

Now, if you phrased it a bit differently, perhaps, do I feel the Bible is always correct while we are not, I'd say yes.

[*Starlight*]

No and I am not sure how you'd arrive at that conclusion.

Now, if you phrased it a bit differently, perhaps, do I feel the Bible is always correct while we are not, I'd say yes.
The Bible is correct. These people really had such opinions. But it doesn't means that their opinions are correct...

[Thenolos]

The Bible is correct. These people really had such opinions. But it doesn't means that their opinions are correct...



If God chose, in his wisdom, to put something in the Bible that I disagree with... I feel abliged to pray that he will change my mind so that I can reflect what he thinks. The opinion of Paul is the opinion of God. Every scripture is God breathed. We don't pick and choose and say one passage is opinion that we have liberty to disagree with.

[holo]

The opinion of Paul is the opinion of God.Uh...

So it's God's opinion that men must have short hair?

It's God's opinion that "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons"?

Come on, think about it.

[savedbyfaithinchrist]

WOW if the bible says no dont let others argue what they think and draw lines for you to pick on the side
the bible says NO many times so end of subject :thumbsup:

[martin75]

So a woman can be the first person our resurrected God see's, and gives to her alone the message that he is alive to pass on to the male disciples (who he doesn't see fit to tell in person)

Yet a woman can't speak in a church?

Please explain this contradiction

Martin

[SteelDisciple]

Women can be Pastors. Ask the Holy Spirit.

[Entertaining_Angels]

Women can be Pastors. Ask the Holy Spirit.

already did...many times, due to my background..I now believe strongly the answer in no.

God bless.

[Thenolos]

Uh...

So it's God's opinion that men must have short hair?

It's God's opinion that "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons"?

Come on, think about it.




Think about it? This is the line of reasoning that leads some to think that fornication and homosexuality is hunky-dory in the eyes of God.

As for "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons"

13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

[swifteagle]

Read the Bible in context, PLEASE!!!

Check out this short artlcle called "Silent Women & Spiritual Freedom"

http://www.injesus.com/Groups/ViewMessage.cfm?MessageId=6B0070NV&GroupID=5B0070LI&UCD=v87

[holo]

Think about it? This is the line of reasoning that leads some to think that fornication and homosexuality is hunky-dory in the eyes of God.Yeah, thinking about it can produce interesting results. Christians should try it some time. They should also try living according to the Spirit instead of the letter.

Thinking about stuff may actually lead people to disagree. And contrary to popular belief, disagreement isn't all that bad. In any case it's better than having a billion people all claiming to be the only ones who read and apply the bible correctly, arguing and denying one another.

I know people who see nothing wrong with homosexuality. Some of them have good arguments, some just can't believe God is more moral than loving. I know people who detest homosexuality, too.
And so what? What's it to me? If I was to search for someone to share my every opinion and notion, I'd be searching all my life. Instead, I decided to look for love, because love will unite us. Love shall be our testimony that we are Children of God.

We don't act like children, but like visitors, and we treat one another as strangers with no business coming into our house. We imagine we must cling to doctrine and agreement and orthodoxy of teaching, completetly blind to love, which is supposed to be the one important thing. We only like to refer to love when we judge each other, and we say "love the sinner but hate the sin" and meaningless stuff like that which doesn't convince or impress anyone. We say "I forgive you", just in order to get to say the rest; "go and sin no more". We believers are more known for our morality, arguments and uptightness than our love.

That's scares me more than a million muslim homosexual abortion doctors reading Harry Potter.

[ub4me]

I believe, if God said to a man go and preach, but he would not listen(for example) And there was a woman saying here I am Lord send me...He would send her
and if she wouldn't go...then the rocks?

God calls whom He calls...it is a Spiritual thing, not a gender thing...
God is not a respector of persons...but a righteous Judge of hearts.

[Followers4christ]

Uh...

So it's God's opinion that men must have short hair?

It's God's opinion that "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons"?

Come on, think about it.

Like i said in post #12.God made the bible through his apostles as stated in 2 TIMOTHY 3:16 and 2 PETER 1:20.So if God spoke through his apostles and the Author of the Bible is actually God What does that tell you.It tells you that God tells women not to be head of church.The apostles are not saying this but God,So when you obey the Bible teaching your following Gods teachings.God Bless :)

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 "All Scriptures is God Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,correcting and training the righteousness."

2 PETER 1:20 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation."

[SteelDisciple]

already did...many times, due to my background..I now believe strongly the answer in no.

God bless.

Really? So...the Holy Spirit tells you one thing and tells thousands and thousands of other people it's ok by God...and even the Bible supports women as pastors...and...you still say no?

[Followers4christ]

So a woman can be the first person our resurrected God see's, and gives to her alone the message that he is alive to pass on to the male disciples (who he doesn't see fit to tell in person)

Yet a woman can't speak in a church?

Please explain this contradiction

Martin

Because men were made first and women were made out of man.Also a woman deceived man and caused man to fall and brought sin into the world.Also you would have to think why would God allow man name everything in the Garden of Eden including the woman.Because God made man to be the head of women.Now God loves men and women equally as stated in Galatians 3:28"There is neither jew nor greek slave nor free male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus.If you belong to Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise".But men and women have different roles such as when a man and a woman is married,the man is the head of her.

The bible says that when a man and a woman is married the man is head of the family.But the men are told to love thier wives as Christ loved His church(Ephesians 5:25) and do not be harsh with them(colossians 3:19).The men should never be harsh with thier wives that means they should never hit or curse thier wives (1 CORINTHIANS 7:5).
Its the same about Church men and women have different roles.God Bless :)

1 CORINTHIANS 14:35 "If they want to inquire about something they should ask their own husbands at home for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

1 Tim 2:12-15" I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve . And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

1 Corinthians 11:3"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

EPHESIANS 5:22-24 "Wives,submit to your husbands as to the Lord.For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church of which he is the Savior.Now as the church submits to Christ,so also wives should submit to thier husbands in everything."

COLOSSIANS 3:18"Wives,submit to your husbands,as is fitting in the lord"

1 Peter 3:5-7"For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear."

[Entertaining_Angels]

Really? So...the Holy Spirit tells you one thing and tells thousands and thousands of other people it's ok by God...and even the Bible supports women as pastors...and...you still say no?

Y'know, I believe you asked if we would pray about this and I am just letting you know, I have. I am in no way claiming to speak for God. I am just letting you know I have prayed about this and the answer I got. You certainly do not need to believe me or anybody else who believes this. I am simply stating that I have prayed about this issue and although the answer took quite a bit of time, I know that I am not to be in any church with a woman pastor. You can believe however, I prayed quite fervently over this after I realized much of what I was raised believing was not Christianity and women pastors had quite a bit to do with my past.

My life changed completely when I began to pray for God's Truth and only His Truth. Often, you'll find the answer takes time coming but if you are seeking that Truth with every ounce of your being, God will reveal much and I know in my healing everything He's revealed lines up with His Word...even though I never could see it before in my 'fog'.

God bless.

[Godslilgurlalways]

So question for those who don't think it's possible for a woman to be pastor if you are a girl and God called you to it despite how you feel would you? Or would you just reject them because of feelings. God cares more about our hearts than he does about our feelings, feelings won't get us anywhere, but our heart will get us far. So another question why do girls go out or marry guys older than them? Woman were the first one's to carry the word of God.Why do you think woman have babies instead of God forget all the normal stuff just spiritual things? It represents the word of God which Mary carried for 9 month , Now I believe that Jesus is,was, and always will be the word of God. First in the natural than in the spirit. God is no respect of person to say that femlaes can't do it.(I think that is how the verse goes.) God doesn't care whether you are a girl or boy he is more concerned about just making it to heaven than whether who is and who isn't able.Having a woman as a pastor balances out everything, just like it would be unbablanced having two girls or two guys(that small part was an OP) for God chooses who brings forth the word not man or woman.

[holo]

Like i said in post #12.God made the bible through his apostles as stated in 2 TIMOTHY 3:16 and 2 PETER 1:20.So if God spoke through his apostles and the Author of the Bible is actually God What does that tell you.It tells you that God tells women not to be head of church.The apostles are not saying this but God,So when you obey the Bible teaching your following Gods teachings.God Bless :)

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 "All Scriptures is God Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,correcting and training the righteousness."

2 PETER 1:20 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation."We have quite different views on the bible. That's for another thread, but it has implications for this one.

Like the last verse you're quoting - aren't all these different opinions merely because we DO subject them to our own interpretation? Nobody escapes interpretation, especially not when they've decided that the bible is final and infallible and supposed to be our ultimate authority on everything. So it's not as simple as that. You can't just say "well just follow the bible," because that's exactly what a hundred thousand denominations that you don't agree with (think) they're doing. And while you're probably a smart guy, I have no reason to assume you're smarter than all of them (though we probably agree more than we disagree) :)

[Thenolos]

In my belief eve did she had the knowledge before man. Woman were the first one's to carry the word of God.



Eve was the first to sin, not to carry the word of God. The knowlege she gained had nothing to do with God, but everything to do with sin.

[Thenolos]

We imagine we must cling to doctrine and agreement and orthodoxy of teaching, completetly blind to love, which is supposed to be the one important thing. We only like to refer to love when we judge each other, and we say "love the sinner but hate the sin" and meaningless stuff like that which doesn't convince or impress anyone. We say "I forgive you", just in order to get to say the rest; "go and sin no more". We believers are more known for our morality, arguments and uptightness than our love.



I cannot respond to this any better than the Word can.






1 Corinthians 5: 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

[martin75]

>Because men were made first and women were made out of man.Also a woman deceived man and caused man to fall and brought sin into the world.Also you would have to think why would God allow man name everything in the Garden of Eden including the woman.Because God made man to be the head of women

False. Woman was deceive by the serpent, wisest of all beings. No wonder she was tricked
Man on the other hand was easily led astray by woman. So it was the man who was weakest

Once again I say the first person to see God, our God the God who resurrected, who was it? It was Mary. No man saw him, it was her. A woman testified to the risen lord, so tell me, why do you continue to deny women?

Isn't it clear Jesus make women true equals? He did, and his spirit was enough to testify to that, being breathed into man and women. His actions just made it even more clear. I'm a man but I truly feel blessed to learn of my fellow spirits, women, who have so much insight into God

Martin

[savedbyfaithinchrist]

>Because men were made first and women were made out of man.Also a woman deceived man and caused man to fall and brought sin into the world.Also you would have to think why would God allow man name everything in the Garden of Eden including the woman.Because God made man to be the head of women

False. Woman was deceive by the serpent, wisest of all beings. No wonder she was tricked
Man on the other hand was easily led astray by woman. So it was the man who was weakest

Once again I say the first person to see God, our God the God who resurrected, who was it? It was Mary. No man saw him, it was her. A woman testified to the risen lord, so tell me, why do you continue to deny women?

Isn't it clear Jesus make women true equals? He did, and his spirit was enough to testify to that, being breathed into man and women. His actions just made it even more clear. I'm a man but I truly feel blessed to learn of my fellow spirits, women, who have so much insight into God

Martin
WOW ty for the part (
False. Woman was deceive by the serpent, wisest of all beings. No wonder she was tricked
Man on the other hand was easily led astray by woman. So it was the man who was weakest)
im so glad that you made that clear with your own mind and fotgot the Bible states all to clear NO

[Key]

So, Was Miriam a mistake on Gods part regarding woman as preachers?

Just wondering.

God Bless
Key.

[Entertaining_Angels]

The Bible does not say Miriam was a pastor. Don't be confused. God blesses women with gifts, not just men. We have so many ways to be a blessing to God. We do not need to be leading a congregation of both men and women to be a blessing and do God's work. And, being blessed with a gift does not make us a pastorl. Off topic perhaps but why would you assume God makes mistakes?

[Key]

The Bible does not say Miriam was a pastor. Off topic perhaps but why would you assume God makes mistakes?

Ok, in order:
First: The Bible Clearly states that Miriam was Equal to Aaron, as a preacher to the people.
Second: It seems that other people have thsi idea, that the woman that God appointed to be Judges, Rabbis, Prophets, and Preachers, was a mistake, because, well, Woman can't be preachers. So, Altho I do not believe God makes mistakes, it seems other people are passing it off as if he has/does make them.

Maybe it's just man made Doctrin conflicting with God.

and if that is the Case, I know which one I plan to follow.

God Bless
Key.

[Thenolos]

First: The Bible Clearly states that Miriam was Equal to Aaron, as a preacher to the people.

No it doesn't. It clearly states she was a prophetess... No one is arguing against that. The Bible does nothing to lead us to the conclusion that Miriam had the same role as Aaron. This thread isn't about equality, it is about roles.




Second: It seems that other people have thsi idea, that the woman that God appointed to be Judges, Rabbis, Prophets, and Preachers, was a mistake, because, well, Woman can't be preachers.




Who was the female Rabbi?

[bannaboat101]

I personally believe that woman can be Pastors. If The Lady is doing what God want's her to do and he showed it to her than yes I believe they can be pastor. At my church we have to Woman Pastors and you can tell that they are doing the will of God. plus i believe that every christian no matter of Sex needs to com together to fullfill Gods plan.:)

[bannaboat101]

Ignore this one I thought the first didn't Send

[Entertaining_Angels]

Ok, in order:
First: The Bible Clearly states that Miriam was Equal to Aaron, as a preacher to the people.
Second: It seems that other people have thsi idea, that the woman that God appointed to be Judges, Rabbis, Prophets, and Preachers, was a mistake, because, well, Woman can't be preachers. So, Altho I do not believe God makes mistakes, it seems other people are passing it off as if he has/does make them.

Maybe it's just man made Doctrin conflicting with God.

and if that is the Case, I know which one I plan to follow.

God Bless
Key.

Okay went back and reread about Miriam. We must be reading two different versions of the Bible because my Bible does not say anything about her being a pastor. You could stretch what you read to show that the women followed her, sure and that is a very valid ministry in the Bible.

I haven't read that anybody here believes God makes mistakes.

[little_tigress]

The problem is you're trying to live according to the letter instead of the Spirit.


but there is a problem with this argument. The teaching we have on women's role in the church is found solely in Paul's epistles if I remember correctly (someone please correct me if I am wrong :) ) and Paul was the major teacher in Scripture on living by the Spirit and not the law.

How can both of these teachings come from the same man and not contradict each other?

But...on the other hand i've seen women with an obvious blessing from God in order to preach His word. I know in the culture at the time (and even today) it was customary for women to be considered silent and to always let the husband speak. Women back then were 2nd class citizens.

And again if we look at Paul's epistles we see very clear teaching that women are to be loved and honored (actually we see this throughout the Bible) so that argument doesn't really factor in. There is no justification in Scripture to treat women as second class citizens, and if we start discounting this as a culture thing only that has no merit for the church of today then it really becomes to easy to discount any other teaching in the Bible as culturally irrelavent for today and the church doesn't have to follow it.

[dancin' moosen]

Okay went back and reread about Miriam. We must be reading two different versions of the Bible because my Bible does not say anything about her being a pastor. You could stretch what you read to show that the women followed her, sure and that is a very valid ministry in the Bible.

Hi there,
in no way to I mean to speak for Key, but I would like to say how I understood Key's argument...

It does clearly state that Miriam was a prophetess. What does that mean? Well, someone with prophetic gifts speaks the truth of God to people. What is a preacher's role? From what I understand, it is to speak (preach) the word of God to the people.

In response...
And we certainly cannot suggest that Miriam was only leading the women; there is nothing to imply this. And if it were assumed, we'd have to assume that Aaron was only leading the men. And then where are we? Men churches and Women churches? Aren't we fragmented enough???

I know that this does not answer your pastor question, but I just cannot find any evidence that says God distributes his gifts according to sex. But in Acts 2 Peter speaks of the Spirit being poured out on both men and women... does the spirit pour differently on men and women? What about the "servants"? or are there two spirits - a feminine and a masculine? no, of course not. and I believe we can take that to be true of the passage when Paul lists some spiritual gifts (1 Cor.12:4-11). Never does he differentiate between gender specific gifts - including pastoral gifts.

Obviously I am offering no answers, because I don't believe I have them all. Just my thoughts on the subject so far. Got somewhat carried away...

D'M

[Stan53]

"Women as Pastors - No Go?"
Oops? Who let this cat out of its bag. It's another of those questions which is guarenteed to cause interesting debate. Or should I say a full and frank exchange of views.
In Christ,
Stan

[Key]

Hi there,
in no way to I mean to speak for Key, but I would like to say how I understood Key's argument...D'M

Thank you for this Great Responce.

God Bless
Key.

[martin75]

How about this...

Can a woman be an interpretor of the word?
If they can't then they must truly be silent and let men explain everything, only questioning when they don't understand not to put forward their own views

Well its obvious a women can be because they have the spiritual capacity, apparantly the same as men, to do it. I see women on Christian TV all the time, and as a man I have received from their interpretations

So women have the ability, and its the reality that they use it
Whether they can be pastors or not is academic, it just formalises the role of being an interpretor of the word

The Catholic church may not have female priests but they do have nuns who I've seen hosting phone in programs where they take calls from men. The Catholics do it, the protestants do it, if women can interpret the word then what can stop them fulfilling this role?

On the other hand if women shouldn't interpret the word then why do they have the ability, and why does it seem to be equal to a man's ability?
Isn't using scripture to oppose women denying this reality?

Martin