Kudos to TAW!

[MrJim]

I finished The Orthodox Church and you all do a very good job representing your faith. I didn't come across anything that was a surprise or shock. Even down to the controversies being discussed (filioque & salvation outside the Orthodox Church) the book said there were two sides and the two sides are represented. Great job.

One of the interesting things I came across was the funeral. He said how the dead are kissed at the funeral and that the dead body is something to love not something to abhor. Having been to 3 funerals in past 12 months I think this is kinda neat.

I am not surprised about forbidding cremation, though in these days of big dollar funerals there ought to be an alternative.

He didn't sound very positive in the chapter about the reunion of the church, though he spoke at length about the relationship with Orthodox and Anglican & Lutherans. He said Orthodox should back out of WCC-about how awkward it is to be "The one true catholic & apostolic church" and yet be a part of a "council of churches". If I do recall some of the jurisdictions (Antiochene?) have departed from the WCC.

All in all it was encouraging to read what I've been taught by you all.

Thanks and Love
Jim

[Mary of Bethany]

kewl! :)

The part about the funeral, and how we kiss the body as something to be loved - I experienced that this past summer when a 6 week old baby boy in our parish died of SIDS. It was so wonderful to be able to kiss his beautiful little face, instead of treating him as something to be avoided.

May Luca's memory be eternal, O God!

Mary

[ProCommunioneFacior]

I too enjoyed "The Orthodox Church." I especially enjoyed when he was speaking about the Hesychasts, especially St. Gregory of Palamas, the similarities between the Hesychasts and St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, and Pope John Paul II works were very evident.

I plan on reading more of St. Gregory. The more and more I learn about Orthodoxy, the more that I realize how eastern in outlook Pope John Paul II was (especially his Theology of the Body).

I disagreed with Bishop Kallistos Ware take on the Catholic position of the Filioque, but from what I understand his stance since writing the book has changed somewhat as he studied more deeply what the Catholic Church actually says about the Filioque.

[Greg the byzantine]

kewl! :)

The part about the funeral, and how we kiss the body as something to be loved - I experienced that this past summer when a 6 week old baby boy in our parish died of SIDS. It was so wonderful to be able to kiss his beautiful little face, instead of treating him as something to be avoided.

May Luca's memory be eternal, O God!

Mary
May his memory be eternal.
A few months back my Aunt's (by marriage) nephew also died of SIDS. She said at the funeral some of the relatives even picked up his little body and embraced him. Orthodox funerals are so full of hope, tears, mourning, joy, love and more :cry: :cry: :cry:

[orthodoxy]

I finished The Orthodox Church and you all do a very good job representing your faith. I didn't come across anything that was a surprise or shock. Even down to the controversies being discussed (filioque & salvation outside the Orthodox Church) the book said there were two sides and the two sides are represented. Great job.

One of the interesting things I came across was the funeral. He said how the dead are kissed at the funeral and that the dead body is something to love not something to abhor. Having been to 3 funerals in past 12 months I think this is kinda neat.

I am not surprised about forbidding cremation, though in these days of big dollar funerals there ought to be an alternative.

He didn't sound very positive in the chapter about the reunion of the church, though he spoke at length about the relationship with Orthodox and Anglican & Lutherans. He said Orthodox should back out of WCC-about how awkward it is to be "The one true catholic & apostolic church" and yet be a part of a "council of churches". If I do recall some of the jurisdictions (Antiochene?) have departed from the WCC.

All in all it was encouraging to read what I've been taught by you all.

Thanks and Love
Jim]

WHOO HOO! I am 1 year old! Dont tell my wife but on the other hand she knows how child like I am!

Jim,

The angels and saints await your baptism and new life. What are you waiting for if I may ask?

As for "kissing the dead". These are icons of God so the orthodox kiss those that have departde in reverance and honor.

In Christ,

kyril

[MrJim]

]

WHOO HOO! I am 1 year old! Dont tell my wife but on the other hand she knows how child like I am!

Jim,

The angels and saints await your baptism and new life. What are you waiting for if I may ask?

As for "kissing the dead". These are icons of God so the orthodox kiss those that have departde in reverance and honor.

In Christ,

kyril

Working my way through it. Just keep prayin'!

[Akathist]

I am not surprised about forbidding cremation, though in these days of big dollar funerals there ought to be an alternative.
Jim

Jim, I don't think that EO funerals are big dollar events for the most part, though I am sure someone could spend big dollars if they wanted to. Many EO's are not cremated, but are also not emballmed and they never even go to the funeral home... after death the authorities who are supposed to handle such things give the OK for the body to be put into a coffin and the coffin is moved immediately to the church and the funeral is held within 24 hours of the death.

It is true that some people chose to use a funeral home and chose to have embalming and days of "vistations"... all of which really add up in costs.

I have instructions that if I die, I am to be buried in a cheapest coffin with just a small EO Cross with my name on it and the birth and death year. I have asked that I not be emballmed and that the funeral be within 24 hours of my death, etc. I do not want to be in the funeral home at all. Someday I hope to purchase a plot to be buried in at the local EO monestary as my chruch does not have a cemetary. But my grandparents "gifted me" with two burial plots next to them years ago so I have that option.

[MrJim]

Jim, I don't think that EO funerals are big dollar events for the most part, though I am sure someone could spend big dollars if they wanted to. Many EO's are not cremated, but are also not emballmed and they never even go to the funeral home... after death the authorities who are supposed to handle such things give the OK for the body to be put into a coffin and the coffin is moved immediately to the church and the funeral is held within 24 hours of the death.

It is true that some people chose to use a funeral home and chose to have embalming and days of "vistations"... all of which really add up in costs.

I have instructions that if I die, I am to be buried in a cheapest coffin with just a small EO Cross with my name on it and the birth and death year. I have asked that I not be emballmed and that the funeral be within 24 hours of my death, etc. I do not want to be in the funeral home at all. Someday I hope to purchase a plot to be buried in at the local EO monestary as my chruch does not have a cemetary. But my grandparents "gifted me" with two burial plots next to them years ago so I have that option.

Is this a common practice among the EO?

Sure works for me. I guess the reality is many don't plan on it so you got the casket to pick out and the program things to be printed and the idea of getting buried immmediately has great appeal.

EO funerals sound interesting.

[choirfiend]

It's not that common now in America, but it's popular to stop doing what regular culture does and start doing what is "Orthodox" and as look to the older practices in the Church. Most people right now in America receive somewhat standard treatment--if not embalment, then surely refrigeration until a funeral. Very few funerals take place within 24 hours of death in order to allow relatives to travel.

We have the understanding that embalment is a desecration of the body (why would you be pumped full of chemicals otherwise?) but it's safe to say that most Orthodox currently go by what is American standard. I think it's a good idea to not go for full funeral parlor treatment and so do a lot of people who newly discover the faith. It's a good thing, but it's definitely not the current standard.

[Greg the byzantine]

It's not that common now in America, but it's popular to stop doing what regular culture does and start doing what is "Orthodox" and as look to the older practices in the Church. Most people right now in America receive somewhat standard treatment--if not embalment, then surely refrigeration until a funeral. Very few funerals take place within 24 hours of death in order to allow relatives to travel.

We have the understanding that embalment is a desecration of the body (why would you be pumped full of chemicals otherwise?) but it's safe to say that most Orthodox currently go by what is American standard. I think it's a good idea to not go for full funeral parlor treatment and so do a lot of people who newly discover the faith. It's a good thing, but it's definitely not the current standard.
Yeah, when my Brother died we hired a Greek Funeral Home to prepare his body. They try to follow Greek traditions to their fullest (the father of the Brothers that own the Funeral Home we went to was a priest). According to tradition the body is wrapped in a white cloth like Christ at his burial, so underneath the funeral clothes they wrap the body in a white cloth except for the head for viewing. They print out prayer cards with icons on the front and the eulogitarion for the dead on the back. They arrange for a viewing of the body, and leave time for relatives and loved ones to come. Arrange for a priest to come and say prayers over the body. Everything was done with much care and respect, and with Orthdoxy in mind.

This is much different from the old world practices my grandmother was used to. When we called her to tell her my brother died, she got my Uncle to drive her over as quickly as possible. She came ready to prepare the body for burial. She was actually ready to wash the body and clean it and wrap it in a cloth, as she had done to other relatives when she lived in Cyprus. They had already come to take the body at that point so instead she lit a candle and prayed with us. Now if you have ever heard Greek women wail I advise against it because it shakes you to the very core. Their wailing which they say "nekaliountai" is so full of emotion and pain and every time they started anew my body was covered in Goosbumps and my eyes were filled with tears. Then the actual funeral service is a whole amazing experience in and of itself, which I would need a long time to talk about.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Orthodox Funeral Practices (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/sokolov-death.html)

[Greg the byzantine]

Orthodox Funeral Practices (http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/sokolov-death.html)
This resource is ok but it doesn't mention the addition of holy oil, and dirt to the coffin or their symbolism.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Can you provide one that does?

[Greg the byzantine]

Can you provide one that does?
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9218.asp

If you go down towards the bottom where it describes the Kiss of Peace and Anointing it says:
Following the dismissal prayer comes the moment of our final farewell greeting to the deceased. As the people come forward to look upon the deceased, the choir or chanters sing hymns that invite them to offer a kiss to the one who has reposed in the faith while they pray for the Lord to give the person rest. The kiss given to the deceased is an expression of love for the departed, but it is also an affirmation that the one who has fallen asleep is worthy of the fulfillment of God’s promises having lived a life of faith and known the grace of God.



After the people and the family have come and offered their final greeting, the priest anoints the body in the sign of the Cross with oil and earth. As the priest anoints with the oil he says: “Sprinkle me with hyssop and I shall be clean. Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow” (Psalm 51:7). As the priest anoints the body with earth, he says: “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof; the world and all that dwell in it (Psalm 24:1). You are dust and to dust you shall return” (Genesis 3:19).

The article also includes many of the prayers and psalms read at the funeral.

[sdcheung]

The 3 stasis of Pslam 118 are recited (Like the lamentations)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Idiomela of the Departed. By Monk John, the Damascene.

Tone 1.

What pleasure in life remains without its share of sorrow? What glory stands on earth unchanged? All things are feebler than a shadow, all things are more deceptive than dreams; one instant, and death supplants them all. But, O Christ, give rest to him You, have chosen in the light of your countenance and the sweetness of your beauty, as You love mankind.

Tone 2.

As a flower withers and as a dream passes, so every human being is dissolved. But once again, at the sound of the trumpet, all the dead will arise as by an earthquake to go to meet you, Christ God. Then, Christ our Master, establish in the tents of your Saints the spirit of your servant whom you have taken over from us.

Another, outside the Typikon. Tone 2.

Alas, what an ordeal the soul endures once separated from the body! Alas, what tears then, and there is none to pity her! She turns towards the Angels, her entreaty is without effect; she stretches out her hands to men, she has none to help. Therefore my dear brethren, thinking on the shortness of our life, let us ask of Christ rest for him who has passed over, and for ourselves his great mercy.

Tone 3.

Everything human which does not survive death is vanity; wealth does not last, glory does not travel with us; for at death’s approach all of them disappear; and so let us cry out to Christ the Immortal one: Give rest to him who has passed from us, in the dwelling of all those who rejoice.

Tone 4.

Truly most fearful, is the mystery of death, how the soul is forcibly parted from the body, from its frame, and how that most natural bond of union is cut off by the will of God. Therefore we entreat you: Give rest in the tents of your just ones, him/her/those who has passed over, O Giver of life, Lover of mankind.

Another, outside the Typikon. Tone 4.

Where is the attraction of the world? Where the delusion of the temporary? Where is gold, where silver? Where the throng and hubbub of servants? All dust, all ashes, all shadow. But come, let us cry out to the immortal King: O Lord, grant your eternal good things to him who has passed from us, giving him rest in the happiness which does not age.

Tone 5.

I remembered how the Prophet cried out: I am earth and ashes; and I looked again into the tombs and saw the naked bones, and I said: Who then is a king or a soldier, a rich man or a beggar, a just man or a sinner? But give rest, O Lord, with the just to your servant.

Tone 6.

Your command which fashioned me was my beginning and my substance; for wishing to compose me as a living creature from visible and invisible nature, you moulded my body from the earth, but gave me a soul by your divine and life-giving breath. Therefore, O Christ, give rest to your servant in the land of the living, in the tents of the just.

Tone 7.

Give rest, our Saviour, to our brother/sister/Grandparentsd, whom you have taken over from transient things, as he/she/They cries (Cry), ‘Glory to you!’

Another, outside the Typikon. Tone 7.

Having fashioned man in the beginning in your image and likeness, you placed him in Paradise to govern your creatures; but led astray by the envy of the devil he tasted the food and became a transgressor of your commandments; and so you condemned him, O Lord, to return again to the earth from which he had been taken, and to beg for rest.

Tone 8.

I grieve and lament when I contemplate death, and see the beauty fashioned for us in God’s image lying in the graves, without form, without glory, without shape. O the wonder! What is this mystery which has happened to us? How have we been handed over to corruption, and yoked with death? Truly it is at God’s command, as it is written, God who grants rest to him who has passed over.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Thanks Greg :)

[sdcheung]

The Last Kiss

And after this, the Final Greeting takes place, and we sing the following Verses, prosomia.

Tone 2. When from the tree.

Come, let us give the final kiss, brethren, to the dead, as we give thanks to God; because he/she has left his/her family and is hastening to the grave, he/she has no further care for things of no moment, affairs of the much-wearied flesh. Where now are his/her relatives and friends? Now as we are parted let us pray that the Lord will give him/her rest.

What is this parting, O brethren? What the grieving, what the lamentation in this present instant? Come then, kiss him/her who a moment ago was with us; he/she is being entrusted to a grave, covered by a stone, left to dwell in darkness, buried with the dead; all we his/her relatives and friends as we are now being parted, let us pray that the Lord will give him/her rest.

Now the whole wretched festival of life’s vanity is being dissolved; for the spirit has left its dwelling, the clay has turned black, the vessel has been broken, without voice, without sensation, without movement; as we escort him/her to the grave. Let us pray that the Lord will give him/her rest forever.

What is our life? Merely a flower, a vapour and morning dew. Come then, let us look closely at the graves; where is the body’s beauty? Where its youth? Where are the eyes and the form of the flesh? All have withered like grass, all have vanished; come, let us fall down before Christ with tears.

Great the weeping and lamentation, great the sighing and constraint at the parting of the soul; Hell and destruction, the life of transitory things, the insubstantial shadow, the sleep of error, the untimely fancied toil of earthly life. Let us fly far from every worldly sin that we may inherit the things of heaven.

As we look on one who lies dead let us accept this expression of the final moment; for he/she passes like smoke from the earth, he/she blossomed like a flower, was cut down like grass, is wrapped in a winding sheet, hidden in earth. When we have left him/her out of sight, let us pray to Christ to give him/her rest for ever.

Come, offspring of Adam, let us look at one in our image who has been laid in earth, who has discarded all his/her beauty, been dissolved in a grave by the rottenness of worms, wasted by darkness, hidden in earth. When we have left him/her out of sight, let us pray to Christ to give him/her rest for ever.

When the soul is about to be snatched by force from the body by fearsome Angels, it forgets relatives and friends and its concern is for its stand at the coming trial of vanity and much wearied flesh. Come, let us all beseech the Judge and pray that the Lord pardon all that he/she has done.

Come, brethren, let us look in the tomb at the ashes and dust, from which we were fashioned. Where are we now going? What have we become? What is a poor person, what a rich? What a master, what a free? Are they not all ashes? The beauty of the face has rotted and death has withered all the flower of youth.

Truly all the pleasant and glorious things of life are vanity and corruption! For we all depart, we shall all die, monarchs and rulers, judges and potentates, rich and poor and every mortal being. For now those that were once in life have been cast into tombs. May the Lord give them rest we pray. 5

Now all the body’s organs are idle, that a little while ago were active; all useless, dead, insensible; for eyes are dimmed, feet bound, hands lie still and hearing with them, tongue is locked in silence, is entrusted to a grave; truly everything human is vanity.

Theotokion. Save those who hope in you, All-pure Mother of the unsetting Sun, who bore God; with your prayers, we beg you, ask him who is supremely good to give rest where the souls of the righteous are at rest to him/her who has passed over; make him/her heir to good things in the courts of the just to eternal memory.

Glory. Tone 6.

As you see me lying without voice and without breath, all weep for me, brothers and friends, relatives and acquaintances; for only yesterday I was talking with you, and suddenly the dread hour of death came upon me. But come, all who loved me, and kiss me for the last time; for I shall not walk with you again, nor speak with you any more; because I am on my way to the Judge, with whom there is no respect of persons; for slave and master stand alike before him, king and soldier, rich and poor, with the same rank; for each will be glorified or shamed in accordance with their own deeds. But I ask and implore you all, pray for me without ceasing to Christ God, that I may not be condemned because of my sins to the place of torment, but that he will establish me in the place of the light of life.

[Oblio]

Another thing that you are told you must buy (and is not necessarily so) is a vault. The main reason for one is to prevent ground subsidence and is not necessary unless the cemetary requires it. We will have our own cemetary on our grounds and most (so far) plan for a simple wooden casket with no vault.

[Monica, child of God]

Wow. I love Orthodoxy.

I went to DL at a Greek Orthodox church yesterday. After the service there was a memorial where an elderly woman presented a plate with Koliva (boiled wheat with pomegranates, nuts, sweet spices and sugar) that was blessed. After the service she put the wheat in little cups and passed them out. I have been thinking off and on ever since, how wonderful Orthodoxy is. We had the celebration of Christ's death and resurrection in the Eucharist, the remembrance of Andrew the first called and those named for him, the commemoration of all the saints whether living or reposed, and a very personal remembrance of a departed loved one, made sweet with the food and the hopeful prayers of the Church. Life, death, eternity and this present life just sort of blend and overlap.

I love Orthodoxy.

M.

[Greg the byzantine]

Wow. I love Orthodoxy.

I went to DL at a Greek Orthodox church yesterday. After the service there was a memorial where an elderly woman presented a plate with Koliva (boiled wheat with pomegranates, nuts, sweet spices and sugar) that was blessed. After the service she put the wheat in little cups and passed them out. I have been thinking off and on ever since, how wonderful Orthodoxy is. We had the celebration of Christ's death and resurrection in the Eucharist, the remembrance of Andrew the first called and those named for him, the commemoration of all the saints whether living or reposed, and a very personal remembrance of a departed loved one, made sweet with the food and the hopeful prayers of the Church. Life, death, eternity and this present life just sort of blend and overlap.

I love Orthodoxy.

M.
Amin. :amen:

I also love the symbol of the symbol of the koliva and they taste good too.

[choirfiend]

Mmmm, yes they do. It sounds kind of morbid to be delighting in food at a memorial service, but that's kinda the point. Anyone have a recipe?

[Monica, child of God]

Mmmm, yes they do. It sounds kind of morbid to be delighting in food at a memorial service, but that's kinda the point.

Yes! So many things that we do and say remind us that death has been swallowed up in victory. The resposed are always with us and it is not morbid or weird, like that show in the US called Medium. It is full of life and the hope of the resurrection.

Anyone have a recipe?

Here is a link (http://www.theologic.com/oflweb/inhome/koliva.htm)

[Greg the byzantine]

Mmmm, yes they do. It sounds kind of morbid to be delighting in food at a memorial service, but that's kinda the point. Anyone have a recipe?
The grain recalls Jesus' reference to His own death and resurrection: "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat. But if it dies, it produces much fruit." John 12:24

People make Koliva so many different ways. It's really just boiled wheat with any combination of the following:
sugar, others with honey with different types of nuts, with jordan almonds, with raisins , with pomegranite seeds, with lemon.

[Monica, child of God]

Here is a little info on the symbolism of the koliva:

The 40-day and One-Year Memorial Services

On the Sunday closest to the fortieth day of the death of your loved one (usually the Sunday before, but not mandatory) a Memorial Service is held, when family and friends are invited to Church. The Kolyva (KO leave ah) or boiled wheat placed in a mound on a tray and covered with powdered sugar is another reinforcement of the belief in the resurrection.

“Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone, but if it dies, it produces much fruit.” (John 12:24) Just as a seed must be planted in the ground in order for it to emerge later as a large tree bearing fruit, greater and far different than the insignificant seed, so too, our bodies will be buried. After a period of time, they will emerge as something entirely different than they were. They will be sown a physical body, but will be raised a spiritual body. “The body is sown in incorruption, it is raised in incorruption. “ It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory….” (1 Corinthians 15:42-49)

The sugar, pomegranate seeds, nuts, spices symbolize the sweetness of paradise. Family, friends and community taste and eat the Kolyva , and in so doing, the bitter taste of death is replaced by the sweetness of the resurrection.

The Memorial Service is repeated on the one year anniversary.

[MrJim]

Thanks for the info TAW. The education continues...

When I got the OC book I also picked up The Desert Fathers. So far that has been an interesting trip. Those wacky monks...

[VickiY]

memo: for those making kolliva for the first time: BE WARNED....the wheat must be very dry, and so it is actually better to boil the wheat (with a stick of cinnamon) and then to drain it, and then spread it on clean dish towels (NOT the furry ones) and roll them up and put them in the refrigerator. This dries them better than anything I have ever seen. I also add more than a teaspoon of cinnamon, and sometimes cloves, as I like the spiciness. I use almonds, and pomegranates (for those relatives who have died in pomegranate season) And the wax paper can also be used for smoothing the top of the sugar...kolliva is best assembled at the church if you are doing it on a tray. (interesting aside, a full memorial requires kolliva). I do mine after Vespers the night before (I have it all pre-mixed and spiced, then just assemble the tray at the church).

It tastes so good, and the symbolism is wonderful!

And don't listen to the thousand little old black-clad Greek ladies who tell you it is sooooo hard to make, so it needs at least 6 little old black-clad ladies to stare critically at you, and discuss their own methods...and predict, like the Oracle at Delphi, the downfall of those who do not make it their way. (Like the Gallic Shrug, there is a Greek Sniff) Ignore these people. ;)

[Monica, child of God]

And don't listen to the thousand little old black-clad Greek ladies who tell you it is sooooo hard to make, so it needs at least 6 little old black-clad ladies to stare critically at you, and discuss their own methods...and predict, like the Oracle at Delphi, the downfall of those who do not make it their way. (Like the Gallic Shrug, there is a Greek Sniff) Ignore these people. ;)

Tee hee :)

M.