Question about OT law [Archive]

Vicissa

30th November 2005, 01:49 PM

ChrisinMI

30th November 2005, 01:57 PM

My understanding is that the OT is a "how to" book. It shows us the things that please and displease our Lord. We are given our salvation by grace. But we are to become more like Christ. We can only do that if we know what is expected of us. Does this make sense?

Telrunya

30th November 2005, 02:15 PM

9-iron

30th November 2005, 03:18 PM

I guess that I am confused as to where we figure out what is bad and what is good. Or in some cases what to do.

There isn't anything to figure out. The Apostle Paul makes it clear if you adhere to parts of the law you put yourself under the whole of the law. Yes, it was specifically for Jewish people who God brought into the promised land.

I think Hebrews says the laws under the new convenant are written upon our hearts instead of tablet of stone. I would read Romans, Galatians, Colossians and Hebrews to get a full understanding of your questions.

Vicissa

30th November 2005, 03:45 PM

The Apostle Paul makes it clear if you adhere to parts of the law you put yourself under the whole of the law. Yes, it was specifically for Jewish people who God brought into the promised land.

Okay, can I ask you a question in regards to that??

Are we not adhereing to the law when we say that homosexuality is wrong? Adultery?? Incest?? Stealing??? I know some of those things are addressed in the new testament, like adultery, sexual immorality?? But how do we define sexual immorality...from the OT right?? And some of those things I stated fall into the "love your neighbors as yourself" commandment that comes from OT and from Jesus himself, but some do not.

Are we than under the whole law because we hold to the idea that these things are against what God will's for our lives??

nb_christseeker

30th November 2005, 03:57 PM

e-sword search in the NT for "fulfill" and "law" is as follows:

(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

(Luk 24:44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

(Joh 15:25) But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

(Rom 8:4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 13:8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

(Rom 13:10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

(Gal 5:14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So does that help?

OnEarth

30th November 2005, 04:01 PM

was the law just for the Jewish people?? I've heard some Jews say that, and some say opposite that. That those rules were given to Israel and not to us.

Well as far as Sabbath keeping goes the whole Saturday Sunday thing is kind of misleading since the Jewish Sabbath starts at 6pm on Saturday and goes to 6pm on Sunday so 18 hours of the Sabbath are and always have been on Sunday.

Jesus freed us from the letter of the Law and wrote the Law on our hearts so that we will follow the Spirit of the Law and honor God. There are some things that are extremely important that are outlined in particular such as homosexuality which is condemned in both the OT Law and in the NT (particularly in Romans) I highly recommend a study in the book of Hebrews if you want to grasp the relationship between the OT Law and the NT.

The Sabbath is really supposed to remain the way it was. Christ never changed it man did. In fact I dunno why you all seperate yourselves from the Jews when Christianity is based off Rabbi teachings. Jesus didnt even intend on Christianity being religion. He came to add to the book of Torah. But he did not come to change what was written. The only thing that any Christian can say is for certain is that the eating of swine was permitted by Christ. But the Sabbath was never said to have changed.

Many like to use the OT to condemn the homosexuality but in the same OT the bible says to keep the Sabbath on Saturday. Ive even considered converting to Messianic Judaism because most everything in the bible and Christ have been tampered with by man. I decided not to and that religion is not where I find God. I read the Torah instead of the OT. I hold strong to the Sabbath day being Saturday and I do not forget that as a Christian we share the same morals as the founders of our faith the Jewish.

New_Wineskin

30th November 2005, 06:47 PM

*I posted this in the women section I usually go to but I figured I'd get a wider opinion as well*

Hello all,

I have a question and was wondering what some of your opinions on it are.

I don't even know if I will express it correctly, but here it goes.

Okay, there are a lot of old covenent laws that we don't follow, we are under a new covenent correct? Like what we eat, Sabbath keeping, and so on and so forth. While there are some Christians who do keep the Saturday sabbath and eat kosher, many do not (I do not).

I guess that I am confused as to where we figure out what is bad and what is good. Or in some cases what to do. Old testament says one things about what to eat, and the new testament okays it. Christ said he came to fulfull the law not abolish it. Old testament says to keep the sabbath, but at some point the church changed it to Sunday (I know the explanation of Sun. as the Lord's day).
In the new testament and old testmant alike they talk about sexual immorality. But if we are not under the new testament law than why do we refer to that when we are saying that being homosexual is against God, that people should wait till after marriage to have sex, and so on?

And was the law just for the Jewish people?? I've heard some Jews say that, and some say opposite that. That those rules were given to Israel and not to us.

LOL Sorry if it is much, but it was just on my mind and thought I'd see what some of you thought!

Well , to those that state that the Scriptures are the only authority , you have every right to be confused because they show that they don't agree with that idea by not following *every* command in *every* passage whether it is an older writing or newer writing - the Scriptures are the Scriptures . Their hypocracy combined with their talking as if they do obey Scriptures is very odd .

Going back to your question concerning the Mosaic code . Whether it was abolished , fullfilled , or any other similar thought , it only deals with those under the Law in the first place . The Law was written to the Israelites that came from Egypt and to their physical descendants - the Scriptures say so themselves . Now , *I* am a Gentile . I was never under the Law . So , with respect to the Lord's fulfilling/abolished/satisfying the Law that *others* were under , that is between them and the Lord - it has nothing to do with me .

JordanF

30th November 2005, 07:02 PM

God has given us a new covenant. The bottom line is that we should live to please God.
The OT was written as a book of guidelines for the Jews BEFORE Christ's resurrection. Today it doesn't matter if you're Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, or whatever: you're either Christian (you have faith in Christ and accept the new covenant) or you're not.

holo

30th November 2005, 07:55 PM

We are under grace, not law.

It's not a law that makes me abstain from stealing, for example. I do what is right because I am a new creation, I have partaken of Jesus' nature.

I'm not concerned with the law at all, in any form, size or shape.

I do respect SDA's though, because at least their consistent.

Andyman_1970

30th November 2005, 09:21 PM

e-sword search in the NT for "fulfill" and "law" is as follows:

(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Keep in mind when a Jewish rabbi says "fulfill" with respect to Torah he (Jesus in this case) is referring to correctly interpreting and living out Torah, not doing away with it.

9-iron

30th November 2005, 11:00 PM

But how do we define sexual immorality...from the OT right??

Jesus said, for it is written { in the law } thou shalt not commit adultery, but I tell you, even if you lust for a women in your heart you have committed adultery.

I would strongly suggest you do most of your searching and discovering on your own. Start with those books I listed.

I think you know in your heart what is sexual immorality or not! If a person can't clearly discern such things then perhaps they have missed true salvation. The Holy Spirit was given to us a guide according to John. The Bible also says "where GRACE abounds, sin has no reign...".

Again, go to work studying the issue.

9-iron

30th November 2005, 11:01 PM

Keep in mind when a Jewish rabbi says "fulfill" with respect to Torah he (Jesus in this case) is referring to correctly interpreting and living out Torah, not doing away with it.

The law is still in effect. However, for those that are 'in Christ' we are free from the law. There is no part of the law we are required to live up to.

Andyman_1970

30th November 2005, 11:22 PM

The law is still in effect. However, for those that are 'in Christ' we are free from the law. There is no part of the law we are required to live up to.

True but............

If we are to be disciples and carry Jesus' yoke (which was a rabbi's interpretation of Torah - a disciples life was centered around living out their rabbi's yoke) then we do have two things to "live up to" loving God and loving others (Mark 12)......on which it was understood the whole Torah hung. Anything less, from a contextual perspective of the Gospels is not a disciple of Jesus.

Being "free from Torah" doesn't mean that to observe Torah is an intrinsically bad thing.

9-iron

30th November 2005, 11:28 PM

ing "free from Torah" doesn't mean that to observe Torah is an intrinsically bad thing.

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't addressing you personally, I was mainly using your quote to address the OP. I do agree with you to some extent. However, I've seen it become a dangerous thing when a Christian get wrapped in the law regardless of motive.

I guess it boils down to how you are applying the law. Are you using principles or messages out of the law to discipline yourself? I would caution anyone is strictly adherring to any part of the law for any reason. The OT is wonderful in a context of learning from examples. Especially in being obedient to God.

Andyman_1970

1st December 2005, 01:03 PM

Just an FYI I'm not Torah observant so you're cool 9-Iron...............

9-iron

1st December 2005, 01:16 PM

Just an FYI I'm not Torah observant so you're cool 9-Iron...............

:confused: Well, we have both been around this board long enough that I didn't think you were, but you had me confused for bit.

dvd_holc

1st December 2005, 03:01 PM

I have not heard it completely (or at least in my way :) ) said here so I am going to talk a little bit about what law is to God. There has been a introduction since the garden that a law was a constrictive order of behavior. This is completely contradicts what God created and maintained. The law of God is the actual harmony of creation. When we have faith in God will we actively participate in bring about harmony within creation and subsequently repair the damage of the fall. Therefore, there can't be a abandonment of harmony while living for God; however, Jesus brought out the true purpose for humanity which is not subsequently in cloths we were, festivals, or days of rest and joy for the LORD...it is actually in the harmony of love first for God then the creation. Further, all the things that divided or cause seperation such as cloths, festivals, etc...were removed so to speak because they have been a stumbling block for restoration and unification. Also, it has been revealed that the judgments (acts of restitution) that proceded the break of God's harmony from the time before Christ were just a shadow of that final day of restoration and judgment. Though God has given us the opprotunity to judge, our purpose at this time is not to judge and allow God to handle it. Put simple to not judge but to encourage love fully.

NacDan

2nd December 2005, 02:50 AM

****EDITED****Okay, there are a lot of old covenent laws that we don't follow, we are under a new covenent correct? Like what we eat, Sabbath keeping, and so on and so forth. While there are some Christians who do keep the Saturday sabbath and eat kosher, many do not (I do not).

I guess that I am confused as to where we figure out what is bad and what is good. Or in some cases what to do. Old testament says one things about what to eat, and the new testament okays it. Christ said he came to fulfull the law not abolish it. Old testament says to keep the sabbath, but at some point the church changed it to Sunday (I know the explanation of Sun. as the Lord's day).
In the new testament and old testmant alike they talk about sexual immorality. But if we are not under the new testament law than why do we refer to that when we are saying that being homosexual is against God, that people should wait till after marriage to have sex, and so on?

And was the law just for the Jewish people?? I've heard some Jews say that, and some say opposite that. That those rules were given to Israel and not to us.*****

Lots of questions. We could spend weeks going through them one by one, but I'll attempt to give you the condensed version here.

One. We are indeed under a new covenant. “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jesus said "This is my blood of the NEW COVENANT, which is shed for many" (Mark 26:28) and Hebrews 8:13, "In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." These are just a few of the many Scriptures referring to the New Covenant. More available upon request.

Second: Jesus seemed to make a habit of breaking Sabbath law. Healing on the Sabbath, eating on the Sabbath... “This Man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath” (John 9:16). When asked about it, He replied, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

Third: The kosher laws are abolished in the New Testament. Jesus said, "Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” (Matthew 15:11) and then God gives Peter this vision:
and when I had fixed my gaze on it and was observing it I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the crawling creatures and the birds of the air. "I also heard a voice saying to me, 'Get up, Peter; kill and eat.'
"But I said, 'By no means, Lord, for nothing unholy or unclean has ever entered my mouth.'
"But a voice from heaven answered a second time, What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.'

Fourth: You are absolutely correct, Christ came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. We couldn't be released from the "old covenant" (i.e. the LAW) until someone fulfilled it. No MAN (or woman) could ever do it except the one sinless person, Jesus.For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. To really read about HOW Jesus fulfilled the old covenant, read Hebrews, especially chapters 8-11. The Law hasn't been abolished, it has been fulfilled!

Fifth. The LAW is the 10 commandments given to Moses on the mountain. The purpose of the LAW was to teach us what sin is. Paul writes, "...I would not have known sin except through the Law" (Romans 7:7).

As for "homosexuality being against God...." and other sexual sins mentioned in your OP...sin is sin. God doesn't grade on a curve. homosexuality is no worse a sin than lying or cheating, or not observing the Sabbath. The Bible states that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) WHY Christians spend so much time worrying about which sin is greater than another is way beyond me.

When we place our faith in the Risen LORD JESUS CHRIST, we are freed from the LAW. He has already paid the price for our lawlessness, our sinfulness. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! (Romans 6:15). Why would we want to continue sinning?

You say, "I am allowed to do anything"--but not everything is helpful. You say, "I am allowed to do anything"--but not everything is beneficial. (1 Corinthians 10:23)

God said that under the new covenant, the Law would be written in our hearts. And so it is. This is the job of the Holy Spirit that comes into you when you believe in and receive Christ.

When the New Testament speaks about immorality (such as homosexuality, lying, haughtyness, stealing, etc...), it is talking about behaviors that should not be exhibited by a believer. "therefore by their fruit you shall know them" (Matthew 7:20). When you are being told not to do those things, it's so you will only produce good fruit.

And finally...(this *IS* condensed...LOL) I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Allow God to bless you today!
Danny

Vicissa

2nd December 2005, 11:11 AM

dvd_holc

2nd December 2005, 12:18 PM

Okay, I have a few questions. This may be stupid, but hopefully you will forgive me for asking them and give me your honest opinions.

1)All scripture is profitable for instruction, correct? (2Tim 3:16) That includes the old testement??

2)If we do not follow the laws that are written in the old testement because they were for Israel, than why do we quote the positive parts that seem to be directed to Israel for ourselves (such as I will never leave nor forsake you Deut. 31:6)? There are so many things that we use to comfort ourselves that in context are directed toward Israel.

Thank you all for your responses, and your future responses to these questions. I appreciate your honesty :)Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who taught Torah. Jesus lived Torah fully and accomplished it. The disciples implamented what he taught which was Torah. We don't do the priestly duties in the temple because we are the temples. We don't judge per Jesus yoke (Luke 6:37, Lord's prayer, John 8:1-11). The things that make us acceptible to God is faith which flows out of the mind and soul not the things we eat (Mat 15:10-20). The disciples continued to work through what Jesus accomplished. Paul continued and concluded from visions of Peter and Jesus teachings:
Col 2:16-19

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such people also go into great detail about what they have seen, and their unspiritual minds puff them up with idle notions. 19They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Also, we are the living body of Christ...we are grafted into Isreal (Rom 11:17)and apart of the Kingdom of Heaven (the bible). And, there is no dumb questions. We all work through our faith. Test everything; keep the good (1 Thes 5:21).

NacDan

2nd December 2005, 01:42 PM

Okay, I have a few questions. This may be stupid, but hopefully you will forgive me for asking them and give me your honest opinions.

1)All scripture is profitable for instruction, correct? (2Tim 3:16) That includes the old testement??

2)If we do not follow the laws that are written in the old testement because they were for Israel, than why do we quote the positive parts that seem to be directed to Israel for ourselves (such as I will never leave nor forsake you Deut. 31:6)? There are so many things that we use to comfort ourselves that in context are directed toward Israel.

Thank you all for your responses, and your future responses to these questions. I appreciate your honesty :)

Yes it includes the Old Testament. Just because something is not applicable since the resurrection of Jesus Christ (thus implimenting the New Covenant), does not mean that it is not useful for instruction. What was HOLY under the Law is still HOLY.

You can still learn (intellectually) what it is to be and what it means to become HOLY.

The point is that none of us can (or did) live up to the standard (i.e. the LAW) set forth by the Lord God Almighty. The difference is that once we accept the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, declare Him to be Lord and believe in our hearts that He is raised from the dead, the PUNISHMENT for sin is gone. Jesus paid the price for our sins at Calvary.

I see that I neglected to address the question about "Is the Law only applicable to the Jews?" Personally, I think the Law was given to mankind through the Jews. Jesus Himself said, "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22). The Covenant was made with the Hebrews (Jews/Isrealites), but the Law was given to mankind. Read what the Bible says here:

(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
I thought it interesting that in this verse it reads that "who show the work of the law written in their hearts..."

We don't "not follow the laws that were written in the old testament because they were for Israel", we don't follow the laws that were written in the Old Testament because we are not under that Law, but under Grace. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. We are to follow the Law that God has written on our hearts.

Feel free to be comforted by any Scripture in the Old or New Testament. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2nd Tim 3:16).

Allow God to bless you TODAY!
Danny

New_Wineskin

2nd December 2005, 05:32 PM

Okay, I have a few questions. This may be stupid, but hopefully you will forgive me for asking them and give me your honest opinions.

1)All scripture is profitable for instruction, correct? (2Tim 3:16) That includes the old testement??

Actually , when Paul wrote that passage , the only writings that were in his , Timothy's and any audience thought's at the time were *nothing but* the writings that are called the "old testament" .

2)If we do not follow the laws that are written in the old testement because they were for Israel, than why do we quote the positive parts that seem to be directed to Israel for ourselves (such as I will never leave nor forsake you Deut. 31:6)? There are so many things that we use to comfort ourselves that in context are directed toward Israel.

Thank you all for your responses, and your future responses to these questions. I appreciate your honesty :)

It is amazing that the passage is used "all Scripture" ( which they knew at the time meant the older writings ) has authority but throw much of it out for one reason or another . It is equally amazing that people do this and have convinced themselves that it isn't hypocracy in any way . Yet , they would beat down on anyone who *they* would consider "rationalized" their way out of obeying certain passages .

You have brought up a good question . :)

SteelDisciple

2nd December 2005, 07:07 PM

It's important to keep one day of rest for your health. You'll live a whole lot longer.heh

Andyman_1970

2nd December 2005, 08:42 PM

It's important to keep one day of rest for your health. You'll live a whole lot longer.heh

It's almost like God knew what He was doing with that whole Sabbath thing.............. :D

Followers4christ

9th December 2005, 08:32 PM

My understanding is that we were bound by the law when Jesus was alive but when He was crucified we were no longer bound by the law.Matt 5:18("I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.") Was when Jesus was still alive, Jesus was crucified in Chapter 27 so in chapter 5 Jesus was still alive.Matt 5:18"until everything is accomplished" and Jesus accomplished everything when Jesus died on the cross for us.God Bless :)

Romans 7:4"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

You might ask but are the jews still bound by the law? No

Hebrew 8:6-8"But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.But God found fault with the people and said :
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,"When i will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

Andyman_1970

9th December 2005, 08:43 PM

My understanding is that we were bound by the law when Jesus was alive but when He was crucified we were no longer bound by the law.Matt 5:18("I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.") Was when Jesus was still alive, Jesus was crucified in Chapter 27 so in chapter 5 Jesus was still alive.Matt 5:18"until everything is accomplished" and Jesus accomplished everything when Jesus died on the cross for us.God Bless :)

If everything was “accomplished” then why does Jesus need to return? I would argue you have misinterpreted that passage.

Romans 7:4"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

Paul is referring to legalistic, repetitive observance of Torah to gain points with God and brag to the Gentiles about what they are doing - not doing it out of a heartfelt desire to love God and obey His way if living for us.

You might ask but are the jews still bound by the law? No

Where does Jesus tell Jews not to observe the written Torah?

Hebrew 8:6-8"But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.But God found fault with the people and said :
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,"When i will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

Where does it say the new covenant (or more accurately the renewed covenant) with Israel render Torah null and void?

Overcomer2002

9th December 2005, 10:03 PM

The object of Christianity (OT + NT) is to create a complete individual in Christ. To live on earth BUT!!!!! to have your mind and spirit in Heaven. That's why Jesus taught us to pray...Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

The Law (earthy/physical) is neccesary in order to push you into a final status (heavenly/spiritual). Jesus was an example of what we are to become. We are here on earth doing the will of the Father.

Another way it was described in the bible was The Letter (earthly) and The Spirit (heavenly). If you try to keep the Law you will be frustrated by constantly breaking it. This is how it's suppose to be. When you persist in keeping the Law when everyone around you is breaking it, that is your test to show faith to God. Notice Jesus accused the Pharasees and Saducess of keeping the Letter and violating the weightier (more important/spiritual). Jesus said to them ...."you bow at the foot of the Law BUT!!! violate the heart of the Law".

What difference does it make if you go to church on Sunday, Saturday, Wednesday or any other day or all the days and you go out as soon as you leave church and get drunk, use drugs and commit fornication. What difference does it make if you give 10% in a tithe but withhold money from a brother or sister that truly needs it? You are only fooling yourself. That was the message of John the Baptist, Jesus and what every true christians' message should be. REPENT !!!!! STOP VIOLATING THE HEART OF THE LAW!!!

When a person stops with the double mindedness of this type of apostate christianity, they are on their way to the cross (DYING TO SELF). Although you're being pushed to commit a sin, by your mind, body, and the flesh: fall on your knees and persist in keeping the Law. Guess what that is called? YUP!!!! HAVING FAITH !!!!! KEEP Persisting with saying no to sin. You will receive the gift/the promise of the Father, THE HOLY SPIRIT.

I could go on for hours but I hope I made you think about the difference between the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law. It's been going on since day one, because the Holy Spirit has been here since day one. I know what a lot of christians are saying today, "we are born in the age of the new covenant, so we don't need to keep the Law". Unfortunately, they do not keep the Law because the Law cannot be kept fully. But they turn around and say. "well then it's ok when you sin because we believe in Jesus and Jesus forgives all". The truth of the matter is, They do not want to stop sining because they LOVE their sin, AND JESUS SAID "YOU CANNOT SERVE TWO MASTERS, FOR YOU WILL LOVE THE ONE AND HATE THE OTHER".

Sincerely

Andyman_1970

9th December 2005, 10:20 PM

The object of Christianity (OT + NT) is to create a complete individual in Christ. To live on earth BUT!!!!! to have your mind and spirit in Heaven. That's why Jesus taught us to pray...Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

You realize that we, those who have faith in Jesus as the Messiah, won't spend eternity in Heaven we'll spend eternity on a restored earth. Read Revelations 21 & 22.

The whole point if Jesus' prayer, was that we would live in such obedience to God that things are earth would be as God intended them to be (which is what Heaven is, a place where things are as God intends them to be)....so by His followers living a certain way we could bring Heaven to earth.

Overcomer2002

9th December 2005, 11:11 PM

Andyman_1970

9th December 2005, 11:19 PM

[QUOTE=Andyman_1970]You realize that we, those who have faith in Jesus as the Messiah,

Are you insinuating that, I do not believe Jesus was the Messiah? Or that I do not have faith in Jesus being the Messiah?

Sincerely

Nope not at all, I was simply offering a Biblical clarification of the whole "mind and spirit in Heaven" thinking.............food for thought.

Followers4christ

10th December 2005, 05:03 PM

If everything was “accomplished” then why does Jesus need to return? I would argue you have misinterpreted that passage.

Paul is referring to legalistic, repetitive observance of Torah to gain points with God and brag to the Gentiles about what they are doing - not doing it out of a heartfelt desire to love God and obey His way if living for us.

Where does Jesus tell Jews not to observe the written Torah?

Where does it say the new covenant (or more accurately the renewed covenant) with Israel render Torah null and void?

Jesus accomplished,what was prophecized about him,That He would come in to the world and be torchered and crucified without breaking any bones.Also he released us from the law and saved us all through His precious blood.About your statment let me ask you this,what purpose would it serve for Jesus to come into the world and be crucified,for our sins and then judge us right away and skip the second coming without time to repent? Jesus died for our sins,so that we might inherit eternal life,Jesus told us about his secound coming and whatever Jesus says it will be done.Luke 21:27"At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

Remember that the author of the bible is God.God spoke through his apostles who wrote the bible and everything in the bible is God spoken.2 TIMOTHY 3:16 "All Scriptures is God Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,correcting and training the righteousness."also 2 PETER 1:20 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation."God Bless :)

Ephesians 2:14-18"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Galatians 5:3"Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law."

Galatians 5:14"The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Andyman_1970

10th December 2005, 10:53 PM

Remember that the author of the bible is God.God spoke through his apostles who wrote the bible and everything in the bible is God spoken.2 TIMOTHY 3:16 "All Scriptures is God Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,correcting and training the righteousness."

You realize Paul is literally referring to the Old Testament there don't you?

[size=3]Galatians 5:14"The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

And when a follower of Jesus lives this out and actually does that, they are living out the "yoke" of their rabbi (that would be Jesus). A yoke was a rabbi's interpretation of the Torah..........so in effect when a follower of Jesus does that they are being Torah observant.

Followers4christ

12th December 2005, 05:57 PM

You realize Paul is literally referring to the Old Testament there don't you?

And when a follower of Jesus lives this out and actually does that, they are living out the "yoke" of their rabbi (that would be Jesus). A yoke was a rabbi's interpretation of the Torah..........so in effect when a follower of Jesus does that they are being Torah observant.

That would be incorrect.Please read the whole chapter.Also notice what paul says right before 2 TIMOTHY 3:16 .2 TIMOTHY 3:15"and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."I believe that both the new and old testament are God spoken,but we are no longer bound by the laws of the old testament.God Bless :)

Romans 3:27"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

Romans 10:4"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Galations 2:21"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 5:18"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Hebrews 7:18-19"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 9:15"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

1 corinthians 15:55-57"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

dvd_holc

12th December 2005, 06:04 PM

Andyman_1970

12th December 2005, 06:18 PM

That would be incorrect.Please read the whole chapter.Also notice what paul says right before 2 TIMOTHY 3:16 .2 TIMOTHY 3:15"and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."

Yeah those Scriptures that Timothy was learning from Childhood was the Old Testament………….the Bible as we have it today was not canonized untile 390 AD several hundred years after Paul wrote his letter to Paul…….you’re position has no historical basis.

I believe that both the new and old testament are God spoken,but we are no longer bound by the laws of the old testament.God Bless :)

Well if you’re loving God and loving your neighbor you’re fulfilling the Torah as Jesus interpreted it………..in effect you’re being Torah observant *gasp*

Romans 3:27"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

I have never stated that one should boast in the Torah or that salvation could be gained by observing it……………faith is the most important component.

Romans 10:4"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Who was the intended audience of this in Rome? Gentiles or Jews?

Galations 2:21"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Salvation has always been by grace through faith, even for those before Jesus……..I have never said that one could earn salvation through observing Torah.

Galatians 5:18"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Remember Galatians was written to a Gentile audience not a Jewish one.

Hebrews 7:18-19"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Unfortunately many placed their faith in the Torah rather than God, Torah was always to be an outward manifestation of one’s faith in God, not how one got faith (or salvation) in God.

Hebrews 9:15"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews deals specifically with the sacrificial regulations of Leviticus, not the moral parts of the rest of the Torah – there is no mention of those being “set aside” or “put away”.

1 corinthians 15:55-57"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have not in any way indicated that we do not have victory in Jesus as our Messiah…………..so this verse seems irrelevant to our discussion.

- DRA -

12th December 2005, 08:07 PM

Okay, can I ask you a question in regards to that??

Are we not adhereing to the law when we say that homosexuality is wrong? Adultery?? Incest?? Stealing??? I know some of those things are addressed in the new testament, like adultery, sexual immorality?? But how do we define sexual immorality...from the OT right?? And some of those things I stated fall into the "love your neighbors as yourself" commandment that comes from OT and from Jesus himself, but some do not.

Are we than under the whole law because we hold to the idea that these things are against what God will's for our lives??

Sexual immorality is defined for us in the N.T. -- 1 Corinthians 7:1-9. It involves sexual relations with someone other than our spouse.

We don't have to go to the O.T. to say homosexuality is wrong. 1 Cor. 7:1-9 rules out homosexuality, as does Romans 1: 26-27. The O.T. does provide background information on the subject. It shows us that it WAS wrong -- and the N.T. shows us that it STILL IS wrong.

Merlin

17th December 2005, 06:39 PM

The early church leaders had many of the same questions about the law.
Their ultimate decision:
Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything
beyond the following requirements:
Acts 15:29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of
strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Just why do we have the law and who does it apply to?

Galations 4:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be
justified by faith.

The law is for everyone.

longhair75

17th December 2005, 10:00 PM

friend telrunya,
Well as far as Sabbath keeping goes the whole Saturday Sunday thing is kind of misleading since the Jewish Sabbath starts at 6pm on Saturday and goes to 6pm on Sunday so 18 hours of the Sabbath are and always have been on Sunday.the jewish shabbat is actually from sundown friday to sundown saturday.

{edited for spelling, my apologies for poor proofreading}

holo

17th December 2005, 10:13 PM

The law is for the wicked, not the righteous. We who believe, are righteous.

Andyman_1970

17th December 2005, 11:30 PM

The law is for the wicked, not the righteous.

So a Jewish Christian, who observes Torah, not to score points with God, or to gain their salvation through works, but out of a deep rooted love for God is wicked?

holo

17th December 2005, 11:57 PM

So a Jewish Christian, who observes Torah, not to score points with God, or to gain their salvation through works, but out of a deep rooted love for God is wicked?I'm not saying he's wicked, but that's he's mistaken, perhaps.

Personally, I don't have a clue what I should use the law for.

Andyman_1970

18th December 2005, 01:05 AM

I'm not saying he's wicked, but that's he's mistaken, perhaps..

No where in the New Testament does it say for Jews (even those who have their faith in Jesus as Messiah) to stop being Jews.........how could he be mistaken?

Personally, I don't have a clue what I should use the law for.

I wasn't asking what you would use the Torah for.........although according to the Scriptures and the teachings of Jesus when you love others and you love God you're being obedient to the Torah.........*gasp* ;)

holo

18th December 2005, 07:49 AM

No where in the New Testament does it say for Jews (even those who have their faith in Jesus as Messiah) to stop being Jews.........how could he be mistaken?Maybe not, but it does say we're not under law. It's not my problem or concern if anybody wishes to live according to the law and use it as their guide or something - more power to them. The problem is when people are in bondage because the commandment arouses sin in them, which it does. And when they demand everybody else live according to the letter, too, instead of the Spirit.

I wasn't asking what you would use the Torah for.........although according to the Scriptures and the teachings of Jesus when you love others and you love God you're being obedient to the Torah.........*gasp* ;)Sure, I probably live up to a whole lot of commandments since I love God and my neighbour. However, I'm never concerned with keeping a law/observing the Torah. It's not like I wake up in the morning and must remind myself not to steal today, or to remember to pray and be compassionate. Any good thing I do, I do because I'm a new creature. None of it comes from my observing or even knowing the law. I don't even know the ten commandments by heart.

I don't know what others are using the law for. What are you using it for?

seekthetruth909

18th December 2005, 01:57 PM

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law when he was still alive on the earth and still under the law and Old Covenant.

Galatians 4:4 “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law”

After Christ's death and resurrection the New Covenant began.

Think of it as three phases, The Old Covenant, [before Christ], The Transition Phase [life of Christ], and the New Covenant [after Christ]

The following scriptures were written after the death and resurrection of Christ:

Ephesians 2:15

By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Hebrews 9:1
[ Worship in the Earthly Tabernacle ] Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:15

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance–now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 10:16

“This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”

Galatians 3:25

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

2 Corinthians 3:6

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 7:22

Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Galatians 3:23

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Galatians 3:11

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” [ Hab. 2:4]

Hebrews 8:6

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

Hebrews 8:7

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Galatians 5:18

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Galatians 3:2

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

Hebrews 10:8

First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made).

Hebrews 7:28

For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Galatians 5:3

Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Galatians 3:10

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Romans 7:2-4

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God."

Galatians 2:21

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

I believe we are under no obligation to obey any of the Old Covenant Laws including the Ten Commandments. Christ says the whole law is summed up in just two commandments, love God and love your neighbor. But if you analyze the Ten Commandments breaking them would appear to go against loving God and your neighbor. There is much wisdom in the Old Testament and many of modern society's laws are based on Mosaic Law.

Another way of looking at it is all Old Testament laws are abolished unless they are repeated in the New Testament. Paul speaks out against sexual immorality and adultery in the New Testament. Jesus and many of the apostles speak out against materialism and the love of money in the New Testament. If you think about it most of these things are about seeking your own pleasure at the expensive of God and others, which causes you to break the two New Covenant commandments, which sum up all the law.

In an action you take in life always ask yourself this question. Do my actions reflect my love of God and others or do my actions hinder my love.

Beyond the obvious actions like lying, stealing, and murder you must constantly analyze your actions. If I love my neighbor should I be jealous and covet the material things, talents, looks, boyfriend, girlfriend, money, etc. that they have, or should I feel good and happy for them. If I make a remark at school or work that is insensitive to someone does this show my love for them? If an engage in malicious gossip about someone am I following God's commandments? Proverbs in the Old Testament has many insights into human behavior, which hasn't changed in over two thousand years.

God has written the law onto believer’s hearts and with the help of The Holy Spirit we can discern our actions to follow God's law and are free from the rules and regulations of The Old Covenant.

Matthew 22

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23908b)] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23910c)] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Romans 13:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

I

Overcomer2002

18th December 2005, 02:59 PM

Seekthetruth909 said:

Think of it as three phases, The Old Covenant, [before Christ], The Transition Phase [life of Christ], and the New Covenant [after Christ]

I would go further and say: Those three phases are needed for each individual person.

1. When a person is introduced to The Lord, they are placed under THE LAW. Automatically !!!!
Maybe not the Law that we are all familiar with (or in my case not familiar with /600+rules and regs including the TEN, LOL sorry). But, definitely laws that are imposed by your particular denomination, non-denomination, house church, or your own rules for that case. Just like the original Law, we fail in keeping the Law. The Law is however neccesary, because it is THE SCHOOL MASTER !!!! A TOUGH SCHOOL MASTER !!!!! Just like Paul said, "If it were not for the Law I wouldn't know that I was a sinner".

2. We need to be crucifiied !!!!! Yup CRUCIFIED !!!!!! We Need to let God crucify our flesh. Just like Jesus subjected himself to the authority of Rome and the False Church, we need to follow Jesus' example and allow ourselves to be crucified and at the same point when they are crucifying us, we need to forgive them and say THY WILL BE DONE !!!! " Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Ever wonder why God loves the smell of burnt flesh???? (sorry I don't have the verse handy) Because the flesh needs to be burnt away so that a pure Christlike Spirit will remain. WE ARE THE SACRIFICE !!!! JESUS IS THE PRIEST !!!! ( I could go into detail about this, but I want to give you the big picture) Jesus presents us to God as an acceptable sacrifice. Then Jesus goes into the Holy of Holies and presents us to God.

3. When this is accomplished, we inturn become PRIESTS !!! Not made priests by accepting or EARNING a diploma from some school or seminary. We become Priests with Jesus. Once the Holy Spirit has been placed in you at this particular point by Jesus, it is only then that you can obey the law. Love God with all your heart and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Without that crucifixtion of your flesh and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nothing and no one can please God.

This is called, having faith!!!! Even when you are going through bad persecution by heathen or family christians, bear it, don't look to escape it: cause the prize is GLORIUS!!!

I disagree with most that state:" we were brought into the family of God after Christ's physical time frame and that's why we are automatically born into Grace".

The so called christians who say that we do not have to obey the law (whatever that law is whether it be denominational or Mosaic), clearly have not crucified their flesh. And the natural outcome of not adhering to the law and crucifying the flesh is-----"they have turned the Grace of God into lasciviousness". In other words its ok to live as you want cause God will forgive automatically because we are under Grace. And that's where we are today: so called christians living just like the heathen.

I could go on longer but, ....oh well I hope i have made a point.

Sincerely

Andyman_1970

18th December 2005, 10:56 PM

The problem is when people are in bondage because the commandment arouses sin in them, which it does. And when they demand everybody else live according to the letter, too, instead of the Spirit.

I totally agree.

What are you using it for?

First, it’s God’s intended way for His people to live (BTW I’m not Torah observant……….ah the irony). Second and probably most important, if I’m going to be a disciple of Jesus rather than just a student of Jesus I need to know what He knew (the Torah), do what He did, so that as a disciple I can become like Him……..that’s what I use it for.

Andyman_1970

19th December 2005, 12:22 AM

Maybe not, but it does say we're not under law. It's not my problem or concern if anybody wishes to live according to the law and use it as their guide or something - more power to them. The problem is when people are in bondage because the commandment arouses sin in them, which it does. And when they demand everybody else live according to the letter, too, instead of the Spirit.

Sure, I probably live up to a whole lot of commandments since I love God and my neighbour. However, I'm never concerned with keeping a law/observing the Torah. It's not like I wake up in the morning and must remind myself not to steal today, or to remember to pray and be compassionate. Any good thing I do, I do because I'm a new creature. None of it comes from my observing or even knowing the law. I don't even know the ten commandments by heart.

I don't know what others are using the law for. What are you using it for?

You realize you're attitude that the Torah is bad/wicked/people are mistaken if they follow it, is just as short sighted, judgemental and narrow as those who supposedly insist that you follow the Torah?

holo

19th December 2005, 07:15 AM

First, it’s God’s intended way for His people to live (BTW I’m not Torah observant……….ah the irony). Second and probably most important, if I’m going to be a disciple of Jesus rather than just a student of Jesus I need to know what He knew (the Torah), do what He did, so that as a disciple I can become like Him……..that’s what I use it for.Ah. Be my guest then :)

Personally, I get by wonderfully without observing, or even studying the Torah/law much. There's a lot of wise and good stuff in, say, the OT, but as we have the very Spirit of God Himself in us, we don't need to rely on our interpretations of a translation of old scriptures. They may inspire me, but I don't refer to them if I'm uncertain what I should do. It's the Spirit who leads me and guides me, not the law/letter/Torah.

You realize you're attitude that the Torah is bad/wicked/people are mistaken if they follow it, is just as short sighted, judgemental and narrow as those who supposedly insist that you follow the Torah?No, I don't :)

I'm only saying that I don't see why people are trying to live according to the law at all, because I don't think we're supposed to. I believe we have nothing to do with the covenant that the law was part (or backbone) of. And I also see that the more I and others are placing ourselves under the law, the more enslaved we are. The more legalistic people are, the more they sin, because they walk around reciting commandments (biblical and man-made), and therefore sin is triggered and given power, and they end up looking at themselves and their own sin instead of Jesus, who would set them free.

I get by so much better without the law.

Andyman_1970

19th December 2005, 10:44 AM

Ah. Be my guest then :)

Personally, I get by wonderfully without observing, or even studying the Torah/law much.

That’s great, no one on here has insisted any Gentile Christian “must” observe Torah.

However your tone of referring to those who do out of a humble deep seated love for God (not so they can lord it over other) as “misled” or “mistaken” gives the perception of judgment and arrogance. It’s one thing to say “I personally wouldn’t do XYZ” it’s another to judge someone for doing XYZ as being misled. You are not in a position to make that judgment, especially with your self confessed ignorance of the subject at hand…….that’s pretty arrogant to cast judgment on other on a subject you yourself have admitted you know very little about……….that reeks of prejudice.

No, I don't :)

Why am I not surprised……………..

I get by so much better without the law.

If by getting along better you mean making judgmental and arrogant posts about people and a subject you readily admit you know nothing about……………better than what?

HisLilyWhitePrincess

19th December 2005, 11:50 AM

Ok, basically, as far as following laws it depends on your own beliefs. Some believe that only if it is restated in the NT that you have to follow it, and others believe that if it isn't replaced (covered up) specifically in the NT then you should follow it. Also the OT law was originally meant for the Israelites because they are God's people, but in effect, when we become Christians we become God's people and need to follow his laws, but God has a new covenant with us that contains some of the old covenant. That's my veiw....

holo

19th December 2005, 12:01 PM

Andy,

if I was arrogant and judmental, I'd judge people who don't live like I do. I don't judge them, I'm saying I think they're mistaken. There's no judgment or condemnation in that. Or is it somehow more judgmental than you when you say I don't know what I'm talking about?

Why are you implying I know nothing about this? I've spent most of my life as a legalist, much like most christians are to a greater or lesser degree.

When I say I get along better now, I mean, among other things, that I'm free from drug addiction and fear and struggle, which all came because of the law, and which I see others are suffering under still. Not because they're dumb or ignorant, but because they don't realize what it means to be under grace instead of law. Most people seem to mix those together, never getting to experience real freedom. Too many christians consider themselves sinners, and naturally, will behave like sinners, always going in circles around the cross, reducing grace to a safety net that saves them when they're unable to live as righteously as they'd like. As a man thinks, so he is.

The law will never bring anyone to freedom or perfection, and I think it's a grave (and sadly common) mistake to believe that we are under it/bound by it in any way.

Andyman_1970

19th December 2005, 12:42 PM

There's no judgment or condemnation in that. Or is it somehow more judgmental than you when you say I don't know what I'm talking about?

Except you yourself have admitted not knowing anything about Torah.

Why are you implying I know nothing about this? I've spent most of my life as a legalist, much like most christians are to a greater or lesser degree.

Because you’ve said so on this thread.

Not because they're dumb or ignorant, but because they don't realize what it means to be under grace instead of law.

You realize that to place one’s self under “the Law” does not replace or exempt Grace? Do you realize that those who lived under the Torah in Jesus day and prior were under grace just as you and I are under grace today? Salvation has always been grace through faith……..that has never changed. So your polemic against Torah and assumption that it cancels out grace or is set against are false.

Too many christians consider themselves sinners, and naturally, will behave like sinners, always going in circles around the cross, reducing grace to a safety net that saves them when they're unable to live as righteously as they'd like.

I agree, no where in the New Testament are we fundamentally identified as “sinners”.

The law will never bring anyone to freedom ……..

So living as God intends for His people to live it not the best way to live?

or perfection,

Once again (thanks to Martin Luther) this is a fundamental misunderstanding of both Judaism and Torah………observing Torah never made anyone perfect, nor by observing it does one rack up enough points to get into Heaven.

and I think it's a grave (and sadly common) mistake to believe that we are under it/bound by it in any way.

As Gentiles you are correct………….

holo

19th December 2005, 05:44 PM

Except you yourself have admitted not knowing anything about Torah.Then I probably worded myself poorly, or you misunderstood me. It is true though, that I'm far from a scholar in Torah.

You realize that to place one’s self under “the Law” does not replace or exempt Grace? Do you realize that those who lived under the Torah in Jesus day and prior were under grace just as you and I are under grace today?Yes.

Salvation has always been grace through faith……..that has never changed. So your polemic against Torah and assumption that it cancels out grace or is set against are false.I'm not saying it cancels out grace. Everybody agrees that we're lost without grace. However, many people are under the impression that grace isn't sufficient - that we must add to it. That salvation comes by faith AND good works. That grace isn't much more than a safety net, so to speak. That grace isn't the road we walk on, but rather the fence on the side that may (or may not) keep us from falling down.

So living as God intends for His people to live it not the best way to live?Of course it is. It's just my belief that God doesn't intend for us to live under the law/according to the letter.

Once again (thanks to Martin Luther) this is a fundamental misunderstanding of both Judaism and Torah………observing Torah never made anyone perfect, nor by observing it does one rack up enough points to get into Heaven.Paul seemed to meet a lot of people who did believe that salvation did in fact come by observing the Torah, as did Jesus. They may have believed that they did depend on grace, but certainly not that grace was enough. Grace had to be added to by eating such and such, circumcision, etc etc. In fact, very much like most christian environments today - people are taught, directly or indirectly, that grace is NOT enough - no, you must pray, study, dress like this, talk like that, subscribe to this doctrine, interpret the bible like that etc etc.

I don't care one bit about judaism or Luther, I don't base my faith on either of them. What frustrates me is when people are mixing up law and grace, since it's my opinion that one can't really be under both.

Andyman_1970

19th December 2005, 06:02 PM

Then I probably worded myself poorly, or you misunderstood me. It is true though, that I'm far from a scholar in Torah.

My apologies if I misunderstood you.

I'm not saying it cancels out grace. Everybody agrees that we're lost without grace. However, many people are under the impression that grace isn't sufficient - that we must add to it.

I agree with your assessment on this matter. However, one can observe Torah with the right heart and attitude and it not be about “adding to” grace.

Of course it is. It's just my belief that God doesn't intend for us to live under the law/according to the letter.

So God was lying when He said that His way is the best way to live………….or are there more than one “His ways”?

Paul seemed to meet a lot of people who did believe that salvation did in fact come by observing the Torah, as did Jesus.

Your reading of both Paul and Jesus are through the lens of Martin Luther and do not line up with the understanding in Jesus day that salvation was only by faith through grace. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of Paul for the most part but also of Jesus due to Luther’s definition of what 1st century Judaism was. Most protestant theology and understanding of Paul is based on this incorrect definition.

I don't care one bit about judaism

Your understanding of the Bible and of the context surrounding it show that.

I don't base my faith on either of them.

Nor do I.

[QUOTE=holo]What frustrates me is when people are mixing up law and grace, since it's my opinion that one can't really be under both.

Well the Bible says you can, because the people that God gave the Torah to were under grace and were always under grace………..salvation was always grace through faith that has not changed, God is not schizophrenic.

You keep insisting you understand that Torah never got anyone saved and yet you keep making statements like this……..you can be saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus, and observe God’s Torah solely because you love God with everything you have and not be mistaken, misled, wrongly informed, etc……………in fact I think it’s a beautiful thing.

You opinions are just that……….

holo

19th December 2005, 07:35 PM

I agree with your assessment on this matter. However, one can observe Torah with the right heart and attitude and it not be about “adding to” grace.I'm sure one can. I don't know more than an iota of all the belivers in the world, so I can't speak too broadly. Thanks for reminding me of that.

I'm speaking from my own experience in a christian family in a christian environment in christian churches in a more or less christian country (and a little from what I read on these forums).

So God was lying when He said that His way is the best way to live………….or are there more than one “His ways”?I believe there are many ways to live, so to speak, but none that should be based on anything but God's grace. I don't read commandments in the OT, for example, and figure I'm supposed to live according to them. Other people do, and I disagree with them. I don't know the details of how others are supposed to live, but I'm sure nobody is to live under the law. In fact, I think that to consider oneself to be under law contradicts the identity, purpose and covenant of Christ. But I used to live like that myself, so I have no reason to condemn, and I'm aware that I can't argue anyone over to "my side".

Your reading of both Paul and Jesus are through the lens of Martin Luther and do not line up with the understanding in Jesus day that salvation was only by faith through grace. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of Paul for the most part but also of Jesus due to Luther’s definition of what 1st century Judaism was. Most protestant theology and understanding of Paul is based on this incorrect definition.Well, I don't belong to any denomination or church. I base my faith and beliefs on the Jesus I've met. I've discarded (to the degree that I can) as much of the teaching I've ever recieved, not because I think it's all wrong, but because I want it straight from the source, from the Spirit who I believe is to teach me about these things (and obviously, the Spirit may teach me by means of, say, a preacher). But I'm sure you get the point. I've heard a lot of weird stuff from the books and pulpits. I also don't base my understanding on how people in the bible understood things. I know Jesus will give me rest because He's already given me rest, not merely because the bible says so or because I've diligently studied how this and that person understood this and that teaching in biblical times.

Your understanding of the Bible and of the context surrounding it show that.OK, I guess :)

I dont' base my understanding on how I read the bible, either, if that makes sense. I don't know too much about much (I used to think I did). All I really have is my testimony.

Well the Bible says you can, because the people that God gave the Torah to were under grace and were always under grace………..salvation was always grace through faith that has not changed, God is not schizophrenic.I disagree. I don't think Gentiles ever had anything to do with the Jewish covenant, and I certainly don't think we're supposed to have anything to do with it now, except that we may know about it and learn from it. I don't believe the law should have any place in my life. And it hasn't :)

You keep insisting you understand that Torah never got anyone saved and yet you keep making statements like this……..you can be saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus, and observe God’s Torah solely because you love God with everything you have and not be mistaken, misled, wrongly informed, etc……………in fact I think it’s a beautiful thing.

You opinions are just that……….I lost you there. Care to rephrase?

New_Wineskin

19th December 2005, 07:44 PM

Ah. Be my guest then :)

Personally, I get by wonderfully without observing, or even studying the Torah/law much. There's a lot of wise and good stuff in, say, the OT, but as we have the very Spirit of God Himself in us, we don't need to rely on our interpretations of a translation of old scriptures. They may inspire me, but I don't refer to them if I'm uncertain what I should do. It's the Spirit who leads me and guides me, not the law/letter/Torah.

Amen . That is what the letter that people call "Hebrews" discusses .

No, I don't :)

I'm only saying that I don't see why people are trying to live according to the law at all, because I don't think we're supposed to. I believe we have nothing to do with the covenant that the law was part (or backbone) of. And I also see that the more I and others are placing ourselves under the law, the more enslaved we are. The more legalistic people are, the more they sin, because they walk around reciting commandments (biblical and man-made), and therefore sin is triggered and given power, and they end up looking at themselves and their own sin instead of Jesus, who would set them free.

I get by so much better without the law.

Definitely . It is the same mindset as the Pharasees who framed the Lord .

Andyman_1970

19th December 2005, 08:36 PM

I'm sure one can. I don't know more than an iota of all the belivers in the world, so I can't speak too broadly. Thanks for reminding me of that.

No problem.

I'm speaking from my own experience in a christian family in a christian environment in christian churches in a more or less christian country (and a little from what I read on these forums).

We are all shaped by our experiences………..evidently you’ve had some bad ones.

All I really have is my testimony.

Sometimes that’s all we have and that’s awesome.

I disagree. I don't think Gentiles ever had anything to do with the Jewish covenant, and I certainly don't think we're supposed to have anything to do with it now, except that we may know about it and learn from it. I don't believe the law should have any place in my life. And it hasn't :)

So Jonah wasn’t to go share the grace of God with Gentiles? Isaiah says that the whole purpose of the nations of Israel was to be a light for the other nations, to draw them to God. You realize there were Gentiles in the nation of Israel when the Torah was given……..it was as much for them as it was for the ethnic Hebrew.

I lost you there. Care to rephrase?

Nah I’ll just drop it.

holo

19th December 2005, 08:57 PM

We are all shaped by our experiences………..evidently you’ve had some bad ones.And some good ones :)
Most of the good ones have been far away from church and bible study and preaching though.

Sometimes that’s all we have and that’s awesome. Not only that, I believe our testimony is to be our major... thing. I think the power is in the testimony, that I'm a witness not because of my words, but because of what I've seen and heard. My experience will override any interpretation of scripture, be it my own or somebody else's.

So Jonah wasn’t to go share the grace of God with Gentiles? Isaiah says that the whole purpose of the nations of Israel was to be a light for the other nations, to draw them to God. You realize there were Gentiles in the nation of Israel when the Torah was given……..it was as much for them as it was for the ethnic Hebrew.There probably were. That would be one of those things you know a lot more about than I do. I probably should know more about this kind of thing since I have a degree in theology. A lot of my knowledge disappered in a drug haze and general whimsiness, and a lot of the rest I simply flung out because it never did me any good.

To put it concretely and relevantly, I didn't find real freedom until I threw the law out of my own life and started relating to only grace. God did a lot of cool stuff in the OT, and there are things to be learned from that, but yet, He is doing something new. He has certainly been doing something new in my life anyway :)

I'm not too concerned whether or not I can get it to fit with my interpretation of bible stuff, because for every reading I have, there are a thousand readings which will disagree, and perhaps one of those thousand is more correct than my own. So for me it's a good thing to not live according to how I filter the scriptures through my own head, but rather by walking with the Lord daily. God surprises me sometimes, and I will never judge or dismiss anybody's notion that He's telling them to live according to commandments, though it would seem strange to me and I would be inclined to think they're mistaken. But that, like most things, are just because I, unlike God, don't know people's hearts. Still, I'm very certain that a lot of people are struggling needlessly because they keep focusing on commandments, which in turn arouses sin in them and ultimately hold them captive.

Nah I’ll just drop it.Hehe, ok then. I'm down with that.

Dmckay

19th December 2005, 11:07 PM

Okay, can I ask you a question in regards to that??

Are we not adhereing to the law when we say that homosexuality is wrong? Adultery?? Incest?? Stealing??? I know some of those things are addressed in the new testament, like adultery, sexual immorality?? But how do we define sexual immorality...from the OT right?? And some of those things I stated fall into the "love your neighbors as yourself" commandment that comes from OT and from Jesus himself, but some do not.

Are we than under the whole law because we hold to the idea that these things are against what God will's for our lives??No, we find all these things condemned in the New Testament as well. Just because something is mentioned in the Old testament doesn't necessarily mean that it was considered Law. For instance, Cain Slew Able this act was sin and was punished before G-d had specifically condemned murder. Before the Law of Moses was given capital punishment was enacted as just punishment for murder. When the Law was superceded by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ it didn't take away those punishments and condemnations which were laid out for man by G-d apart from the Law. Immorality is still immorality.

jlerollin

21st December 2005, 09:17 AM

Well as far as Sabbath keeping goes the whole Saturday Sunday thing is kind of misleading since the Jewish Sabbath starts at 6pm on Saturday and goes to 6pm on Sunday so 18 hours of the Sabbath are and always have been on Sunday.

The thing about the Law is it was given to show us what sin is. People (IE but not limited to Pharasies and Sadducees) took that and went letter for letter. Any Loop hole they could find by the wording they would use. God wants us to love him with all of our hearts, all of our souls, and all of our minds though. He made the Sabbath for us to rest, not us for the Sabbath. If you look at the OT Law, particularly the food laws, you'll note that God commanded people to eat healthy stuff and stay away from unhealthy things. Your body was made by God and is a temple for the Holy Spirit to reside in so dont clutter it up with junk and take care of it. Jesus freed us from the letter of the Law and wrote the Law on our hearts so that we will follow the Spirit of the Law and honor God. There are some things that are extremely important that are outlined in particular such as homosexuality which is condemned in both the OT Law and in the NT (particularly in Romans) I highly recommend a study in the book of Hebrews if you want to grasp the relationship between the OT Law and the NT.

i just checked and according to jews it is from friday nigth to saturday sundown!

2ndly

I believe that Gods law is split up into the instruction for the sacrificial system and being accepted by him and the moral law - which being broken the sacrificial system provided relief -

the sacrificial system with hight priest etc. has been perfectly fulfilled by christ there is no longer any need for an intervening priest and his intercession on the earth as there is one in heaven far better and with a better sacrifice or barganing tool for our salvation.

regarding the moral law it is obviously still in effect, and christ rather than diminish from it actually emphasised that it really didnt go far enough to keep the letter of it but to actually embody the spirit of it was the necessary standard to be his disciples. (sermon on the mount)

I dont think christ left us in much doubt regarding homosexuality he stipulated that marriage as God intended it was clear from the adamic example and not to be violated with divorce citing again that moses allowed in the law for divorce but it goes against the spirit of what god intended for mans mating relationships.

i believe alot of ot laws are actually easier to discern their spirit when you think in terms of a nation and many generations, alot of them are wisdom which many nations would do well to adhere to for general health and success like the commands for hygiene which we have recently rediscovered