The Creation of Evil

[AngelusSax]

Hello all. I thought I'd start this topic here. For much of my life, I've been taught that evil is the cause of sin in the world, but then I go to Sunday School this week, and I am told that it's more likely that sin causes evil.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Is sin merely the turning of oneself into oneself, thus away from God, and therefore true evil coming from this turning?

[SPALATIN]

Hello all. I thought I'd start this topic here. For much of my life, I've been taught that evil is the cause of sin in the world, but then I go to Sunday School this week, and I am told that it's more likely that sin causes evil.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Is sin merely the turning of oneself into oneself, thus away from God, and therefore true evil coming from this turning?

Since this is not a question that is subjected by a synod answer I will post on this.

Sin causes evil or evil causes sin.

Question: Was the serpent in the Garden of Eden evil at the time he was tempting Eve? I believe that Evil for us happened prior to sin, but yet it wasn't until we disobeyed God's command that we were considered evil.

Lucifer fell before we were created. His pride in his beauty led to arrogance which led him to believe he was better than God. Since he was a created being though he was limited he could not defeat God. I think this is a conundrum that will only end up in circular reasoning.

[AngelusSax]

Thanks for your input. Anyone else got any ideas on it?

It would seem to me that sin, the turning from God into oneself (as in, Pride), would cause much evil... but it also would seem to me that evil would have to be there to make one be tempted to turn like that too... :scratch:

I just confused myself.....

[ByzantineDixie]

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Is sin merely the turning of oneself into oneself, thus away from God, and therefore true evil coming from this turning?

Yep...that's how I understand things. Evil doesn't exist as it's own thing...it is the absence of good like darkness is not a thing unto itself but rather the absence of light. And since evil is the absence of good, it is the absence of God. We bring this cancer (evil) into being through our own acts.

[Willy]

The second Genesis account of creation (2:4b and following) is a fascinating discussion of the matter of evil. The snake as one of God good creations is the one who tempts the man and the woman. The snake is a creation of God. I wonder what the author was trying to say then about evil and its origins. I don't think the story takes away the mystery of the question, but I am intrigued that the author of this portion of Genesis (the Yahwistic writer) leaves open the possibility that evil is within the providence of God.

[ByzantineDixie]

Willy, are you saying God created evil?

[SPALATIN]

Willy, are you saying God created evil?

In Willy's defense, I don't believe he is saying that, but is saying that God created the serpent which, to many, has an evil connotation. Though I beleive Genesis uses the word "serpent" and not "Snake". Serpents cover many species of which snakes are one of them.

We could say that Satan used the "serpent" form to speak with Eve and Adam. We know that animals don't talk, but they did here. Why Satan chose the serpent, I have no idea, but after the fall God cursed the serpent to move on it's belly and slither through grass. He said that the serpent would strike at the heel of the seed, but that the seed would crush it's head.

Evil is the absence of Good. It is an absolute just as Good is an absolute. I don't believe that God creates evil, but he allows it to exist because to test our faith. It enables him to demonstrate what true Good is to all who witness it.

Lucifer became Sa'tan the adversary when he opposed God and tried to take over. The Spirit world is a mystery to us. God has only given us bits and pieces of what happened. But his message is still that through his son's meritorious work on the cross, we are saved from the eternal fire that is hell.

[Willy]

I am not saying that God created evil. But I am saying that the story from Genesis seems to indicate that evil is not larger than God's creation. Evil is within the providence of God. This seems to offer an alternative view to those who, reflecting the world view out of the apocalyptic literature, see evil as equally powerful to God, those who see life as a competition between the forces of evil and the forces of good.

[AngelusSax]

I don't believe that God creates evil, but he allows it to exist because to test our faith.

We confess that God is the Creator of all things, seen and unseen.

Is evil, then, not a thing? This is really the big stumbling block for me... I can't fathom that something, such as evil, exists without it being God's creation for some purpose... and yet I also cannot fathom God creating evil. So... if evil isn't labeled as a thing, then I might be able to grasp it better, I dunno.

[ByzantineDixie]

We confess that God is the Creator of all things, seen and unseen.

Is evil, then, not a thing? This is really the big stumbling block for me... I can't fathom that something, such as evil, exists without it being God's creation for some purpose... and yet I also cannot fathom God creating evil. So... if evil isn't labeled as a thing, then I might be able to grasp it better, I dunno.

I think the problem here is that you are trying to set evil as a thing against good...evil and good should not be understood as two opposing ontological entities. Evil is a void. I don't know how much reading you have done with regard to Manichaeism but perhaps reading up a bit on this heresy and the subsequent response by the Church might help with this particular question.

Sorry...I am not much of a philospher.

[KagomeShuko]

While the story is an urban legend, still good to read:

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[disciple777]

In the past, the chief angel rebelled against God and wanted to dethrone Him. Then, he was thrown out of his status as the Chief of all angels by his rebellion.He became Satan who was revengeful. He became the arch enemy of God. Later on, God made everything perfect in the garden of Eden. It was a paradise. However, Satan the fallen angel was jealous of Adam and Eve as he believed that he was the sole authority over the earth. He knew very well that if only Adam and Eve disobeyed God, then he could have dominion and so, he came and deceived Eve. Then, they both ate the forbidden fruit. Then, their eyes were opened. This is when evil took over them. This evil will continue to steal , kill and destroy God's people till Jesus returns and casts down satan into the lake of fire. This is why Apostle Paul admonished us to put on the whole armour of God.:amen:

[CSMR]

We confess that God is the Creator of all things, seen and unseen.

Is evil, then, not a thing? This is really the big stumbling block for me... I can't fathom that something, such as evil, exists without it being God's creation for some purpose... and yet I also cannot fathom God creating evil. So... if evil isn't labeled as a thing, then I might be able to grasp it better, I dunno.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Isn't the vanity to which we are made subject evil? Then this is the purpose.

"I form the light, and create darkness"
"Verily thou [art] a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour."
(Isa 45)

[Protoevangel]

We confess that God is the Creator of all things, seen and unseen.

Is evil, then, not a thing? This is really the big stumbling block for me... I can't fathom that something, such as evil, exists without it being God's creation for some purpose... and yet I also cannot fathom God creating evil. So... if evil isn't labeled as a thing, then I might be able to grasp it better, I dunno.
Hi Angelus,

I know it's been a while since your post, and ByzantineDixie's answer is probably better than anything I could come up with. But I just wanted to chime in and see if I could help a bit (and hopefully not muddy things or start a debate).

Here is how I look at it:

Good is a "thing" (God's Will) much like matter is a "thing".
Evil is the absence of God's Will much like, vacuum is the absence of matter. (Or darkness the absence of light.)
In this same way, evil is not "thing", but the absence of "thing".

BTW, Since the serpent was mentioned, I see "lie" much the same way... It is not necessarily the 'opposite' of truth, but simply the absence of truth.

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Yep...that's how I understand things. Evil doesn't exist as it's own thing...it is the absence of good like darkness is not a thing unto itself but rather the absence of light. And since evil is the absence of good, it is the absence of God. We bring this cancer (evil) into being through our own acts.
Although it should, IMHO :) , be obvious what I write here is InMyHumbleOpinion, and not to be taken as dogma.
In many cases sin/evil is the distortion of good, rather than the absense of good. Being lawful is good, being legalistic is not. Satisfaction in a job well done is a good thing, "Pride" is bad.

I put quotes around Pride because it is the version of pride that is based in a belief that one is fully responsible for one's existance and output that is clearly sinful.

It is less clear to me that taking pride/satisfaction in one's work, while acknowledging that one's gifts come from God is sinful.

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Lucifer fell before we were created. His pride in his beauty led to arrogance which led him to believe he was better than God.
I just want to note that a lot of views of Satan is based on extra-Biblical sources and upon interpretation of scripture that is far from certain.

Case in point, "Lucifer" as used in the Bible is the name of an Earthly king, not Satan, according to many (if not most, I haven't taken an actual poll) Biblical scholars.

[Protoevangel]

Hi Robert,

I think we are closer to agreement than it may appear.

In many cases sin/evil is the distortion of good, rather than the absense of good.
My point is that once good (God's Will) has been distorted in the slightest, it is no longer good (God's Will).

Being lawful is good, being legalistic is not.
Exactly. Lawful is within God's Will. Legalism is absent of God's Will. If one is lawful, as such, they are not legalistic; and if one is legalistic, in that way, they are not lawful.


But then again, it was just an analogy. It was an idea used to make a point... It dosen't have to be bulletproof. ;)

[RayJGentry]

Here's my take on things:

God gave us Free Will.
Free Will is the ability to not follow God's Will, ie: Sin.
Sin allows evil (not doing Good/God's Will) to enter the World.
Man disobeys God (serpent or not, man had the ability).
Sin enters the World, thus man does not follow God's Will, thus Man commits evil/bad.

I know this isn't put together the best, or anything and I assumed a few things, but I think the Logic of it follows. Thus I think that Sin is what allows evil to enter the world. Man does not have to be evil to sin, but sin is a necessity of evil.

God's Peace, Love, Wisdom and JOY!
Spankin' the Devil,

Ray J Gentry IV

Edit:
Also wanted to add this: I don't know if God directly "created" evil, or if in His creation it was a necessity of free will to allow the possibility of Evil.

[Robert the Pilegrim]

But then again, it was just an analogy. It was an idea used to make a point... It dosen't have to be bulletproof. ;)
Oh, no doubt. Although it didn't quite come across, I meant that post to be another view to consider, not a negation of what others had written.

[Protoevangel]

Oh, no doubt. Although it didn't quite come across, I meant that post to be another view to consider, not a negation of what others had written.:thumbsup: It's all good, bro!

[Catechumen]

Is sin merely the turning of oneself into oneself, thus away from God, and therefore true evil coming from this turning?

Introspection is the only way to find God and truth, in my opinion.

"Sin" is a roadblock on our path to God. "Sin" is quite literally missing the mark. Anything that doesn't bring us closer to God is "evil."

[FLA2760]

I am not saying that God created evil. But I am saying that the story from Genesis seems to indicate that evil is not larger than God's creation. Evil is within the providence of God. This seems to offer an alternative view to those who, reflecting the world view out of the apocalyptic literature, see evil as equally powerful to God, those who see life as a competition between the forces of evil and the forces of good.
Hi Willy
The Scriptures record the introduction of sin (evil) into the universe when Lucifer fell and became satan. Lucifer coveted what belonged only to God and driven by pride and vanity sought to '"be like the Most High" The moment Lucifer said "I will" sin entered the universe, (Isa 14: 12-20) Satan was not created evil but "sin was found in him" Some equate Ezekiel 28: 11-19 to reference Lucifer in his primeval sinless glory. In reading the passage it is apparent that the language goes beyond the king of Tyre. Adherents to the "Gap Theory"
see the above passage as speaking of that "dateless period" between the perfect creation of heaven and earth Genesis 1:1; and the catastrophic judgement upon the planet; (Gen1:2 Jer. 4:23-26) This theory sees the
fall of satan occuring between Gen 1:1 and 1 :2. It is important that we be aware of any teaching based on Persian Dualism that sees an evil god and a benevolent god who are of equal power where the evil god is answerable to no one. Clearly a non Scriptural principal! See Rev. 20:10
GOD BLESS

[AngelusSax]

Question:

Since Lucifer had that Pride and Vanity thing going, can we deduce that Lucifer had free will? What of other angels? Some people have said (throughout my life, not referencing this thread) that angels have no free will, but humans do. IF they are correct even only in the first half of the statement, would that not mean that God made Lucifer have sin in him? I would, frankly, rather believe that at least Lucifer had some modicum of free will and it was freely of his own choosing to go against God, and not God's order...

[FLA2760]

Question:

Since Lucifer had that Pride and Vanity thing going, can we deduce that Lucifer had free will? What of other angels? Some people have said (throughout my life, not referencing this thread) that angels have no free will, but humans do. IF they are correct even only in the first half of the statement, would that not mean that God made Lucifer have sin in him? I would, frankly, rather believe that at least Lucifer had some modicum of free will and it was freely of his own choosing to go against God, and not God's order...
Hi
Yes Lucifer the archangel had free will. The 5 "I wills" in Isa. 14: 12-20 illustrate this. The angelic order in creation is of a higher order than man. Man was created with free will. God created Lucifer with the ability to choose and he chose to rebel and it stands to reason that if Lucifer was created with free will so were the the other angels.The scriptures NEVER say that God authored sin. Here is something to ponder; it was the introduction of sin in God's moral universe that prompted the awesome display of God's grace and love toward us in the Person of His Son. "Where sin increased, grace increased all the more" (Rom 5:20)
I highly recomend you read 'Biblical Demonology" by Merrill F. Unger. Check out CBD or Amazon.
God Bless

[AngelusSax]

Well, from my own personal Lutheran standpoint, Christ was not only for whom and through whom Creation was made, but Christ was also the ultimate completion of the Creation (NOT saying he was Created, as He was begotten, but... his INCARNATION is the ultimate completion of Creation), and was destined to come for His purpose since before time itself began.

(This from Sunday School)

God may not have authored sin, but He knew it was gonna happen and so the preordination of Christ's sacrifice makes sense either way.

[Willy]

I wonder why we have to do all this figuring out. Evil remains a mystery no matter how we articulate it. What intrigues me is that the ancients (at least those responsible for the Yahwistic account of creation) seem to indicate that evil is somehow within the providence of God. It was a good creation of God (the snake) that tempts the human beings. For some reason, at least according to this marvelous story, this good creation of God was just a little more sly than other portions of creation. What matters to me about this is not so much theories about the origins of evil but reflections on the nature of evil in our midst. I think there is no doubt but that the good stuff (religion being an example) is the major source of our struggle, the major temptation in our lives. It is often the good that takes us to destructive places.

[AngelusSax]

It is often the good that takes us to destructive places.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I once wrote a commentary on the temptations of Christ. The short version is:
Each temptation was a temptation, truly and utterly, because of the good that could have come from giving in. Turn stones into bread? Feed the entire world, satisfy the physical need of hunger. Thrown himself down to be caught by angels? Reveal Himself as God truly and utterly in a way no one could ever deny. Bow down and worship Satan, to have "the world given to him"? Unite every person and nation under one political banner, thus ending all earthly wars.

Yet each of those good things would have been disastrous in the end, as there would be no more hunger for the Word of God, no crucifixion to bring salvation, and no wars because we'd all be united under Satan and doomed to hell eventually (not to mention that it's scary to think about 1/3 of the Trinity worshipping Satan...)

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Hi
Yes Lucifer the archangel had free will. The 5 "I wills" in Isa. 14: 12-20 illustrate this.
The general view I've seen is that the "Lightbringer" in Isa 14 was a Babylonian king, not a fallen archangel.

The subject of those verses arrives in the land of the dead as weak as other dead human rulers...

[Catechumen]

I think there is no doubt but that the good stuff (religion being an example) is the major source of our struggle, the major temptation in our lives. It is often the good that takes us to destructive places.

I disagree. Sin is quite literally "missing the mark" and anything that doesn't bring us closer to God is "evil". No action is inherently good or bad, it's all about how it relates to our spiritual path. "Good' is what leads us to God and "evil" is a roadblock on our path. Sometimes it takes "evil" to show us how "good" we actually have it.
I believe this can be different for different people as God is personal and relates to us via our subjective realities.

[Robert the Pilegrim]

I think there is no doubt but that the good stuff (religion being an example) is the major source of our struggle, the major temptation in our lives. It is often the good that takes us to destructive places.

I disagree. Sin is quite literally "missing the mark" and anything that doesn't bring us closer to God is "evil". No action is inherently good or bad, it's all about how it relates to our spiritual path. "Good' is what leads us to God and "evil" is a roadblock on our path. Sometimes it takes "evil" to show us how "good" we actually have it.

I believe this can be different for different people as God is personal and relates to us via our subjective realities.
<heh><heh>
... and thus we have two different slippery slopes.

A rule based view of the world, e.g. not being wasteful of God's gifts to us is good, can lead to sin, e.g. being miserly. (I'm sure there are better examples but that is what jumped to mind.)

"Subjective reality", extreme generalities about getting closer to God rather begs the question about what sort of thing gets one closer to God, and leaves one open to equal extremes, likely in the opposite direction.

Willy,
my old Pastor once said that tools are to be used, not admired. His specific point was that the Trinity was a useful tool for understanding God, but that the concept of the Trinity should not be worshipped.

In general regardless of what approach one takes, checks and balances are a good idea. Checking one's ideas against the Bible (as a whole, as well as against specific verses), against what others have written and believed, against what we know of reality, are all useful tools.

Causing pain to others is not, in general, a good thing, so if one's subjective reality/relationship or if one's rules for what is "good" lead one to cause pain ...
at the very least, serious reflection on the issues involved is in order.

my $.02

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

I would say that sin causes evil, this is why I say that:
Chapter 1 of Genesis constantly repeats "and God saw that it was good", never before the time of "the first sin" did anything seem to be evil, but Genesis 6 & 8 go on to God looking at Humans and seeing nothing but evil in them. Paul also says that death entered this world through one man (Adam), it appears therefore that before sin evil never seemed to exist. I always sortof pondered that if the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil gave the knowledge because it allowed evil to exist, and once it did, there was knowledge of comparison of Good and Evil. Though that is more of an aside.

The only way I think to argue the opposite is if you argue the Serpant to be "evil". How you interpret/understand it will affect how you order evil and sin. Otherwise I think it is clearly sin-then evil.

[RayJGentry]

i agree with your conclusion regarding this doulos. i think my first statement on the first page basically said the same thing. and to bring in a few other posts, i'll summarize how i see it.

if like it was said, evil is the absence of God's will, then there had to be an act contrary to God's will prior to there being the concept of evil. that act was a sinful act (as an act against God's will) thus sin begets evil.

and i suppose just in a sort of general way, we have to have a behavior before we can describe it. the concept of obsessive doesn't exist if you don't have people who act that way, much like evil would not exist if man would not sin. it's a loose concept that can possibly be described as a potential, but does not exist without the act it describes. it's simply a hypothetical until the act brings it to fruition

[C.F.W. Walther]

I would say that sin causes evil, this is why I say that:
Chapter 1 of Genesis constantly repeats "and God saw that it was good", never before the time of "the first sin" did anything seem to be evil, but Genesis 6 & 8 go on to God looking at Humans and seeing nothing but evil in them. Paul also says that death entered this world through one man (Adam), it appears therefore that before sin evil never seemed to exist. I always sortof pondered that if the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil gave the knowledge because it allowed evil to exist, and once it did, there was knowledge of comparison of Good and Evil. Though that is more of an aside.

The only way I think to argue the opposite is if you argue the Serpant to be "evil". How you interpret/understand it will affect how you order evil and sin. Otherwise I think it is clearly sin-then evil.

Well the evil intent to seduce Eve was before Adam introducing evil into the world so it existed before that.

It's interesting to note that biblicly the evils of a nation are not laid on the unsaved that sin, but on the saved that have allowed themselves to not say anything about it, have done nothing about it or plainly just fallen into sin. Like it's the Christians fault that the US is in the shape it's in.