Different churches

[EricTheRed]

There are alot of different Orthodox organizations like OCA and goarch. Why is this and do they all report to the same person?

[OrthoTauf]

There are alot of different Orthodox organizations like OCA and goarch. Why is this and do they all report to the same person?

There are three levels of administration within the Orthodox Church:

The highest is "autocephaly," which means that churches in a given geographical area (jurisdiction) are independent. 15 of the 19 Orthodox jurisdictions of the world are autocephalous. Autocephalous jurisdictions are headed by patriarchs or by metropolitans (aka archbishops), who have high authority on a purely administrative basis; that is, an archbishop is still simply equal to every other bishop, except for his administrative functions. Autocephalous churches select their own patriarchs, metropolitans, or archbishops.

The second highest is "autonomy," which means that a given jurisdiction can run its internal affairs--but its archbishop is appointed by a patriarch or other higher-ranked bishop from an autocephalous church. There are only four small Orthodox jurisdictions that are autonomous.

The lowest is "self-rule." There is no distinction in English between the meanings of the words "autonomy" and "self-rule," but there is in Aramaic. "Self-rule" for the Church of Antioch means that the North American archdiocese has enough independence to run its own internal affairs, but is still answerable to the hierarchy of its original jurisdiction and the Patriarch of Antioch. It is still an archdiocese of Antioch, not a church on its own.

Canonical Orthodox churches are those that recognize the authority of the four remaining original patriarchs (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria) and any patriarchates established since (such as Moscow), with Constantinople having highest honor, and are in communion with all the patriarchates and jurisdictions that so recognize those authorities. There are a tiny number of radical breakaway groups that are not canonical, such as ROCOR, a church that does not recognize the validity of the Moscow patriarchate (and ROCOR is thus not recognized by any of the 19 jurisdictions which do). Uncanonical churches have been restored to canonical status before, and so could again. This was the case, for example, of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in both the U.S. and in Canada until quite recently. ROCOR is kind of the Orthodox equivalent to the radical Seevacantists like Mel Gibson's father, who claim to be Roman Catholics but deny the validity of the current papacy.

The Orthodox have been here since the 1700s. Under canon law established by an early Church council, whenever mission work is undertaken in a new area, the church which first arrived has jurisdiction over the mission field. Alexandria has jurisdiction over Africa, for instance. According to canon law, all American churches were under the authority of the Patriarch of Moscow, since it was the Russian Orthodox who first planted churches here (in Alaska). Moscow remained in charge until 1917 when the Russian Revolution broke out, severing communication with the patriarchate; later, it was commonly thought that the Communists installed a succession of puppet patriarchs to try to control their enemy the Church.

As a result, local churches in America founded by Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, et al., started asking for clergy and help from their own mother countries. For the first time in Christian history, "foreign" jurisdictions established hierarchies that overlapped each other. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, for example, was organized in the mid-1920s. By 1970, when the situation among the Soviet Communists, the Russian patriarchate, and Russian Orthodox churches in America was ironed out, almost a dozen ethnic jurisdictions were already governed here by the churches from their mother countries in a fait accompli. This is an extraordinary and unprecedented case that will take decades to work out. What will probably happen is that the three largest jurisdictions, the OCA and the Greek and Antiochian archdioceses, will all merge with a new name, like AOC, then others will join over time until there is one canonical church in America.

There has been an American Church here since the 1700s, but it simply did not gain its full independence until 1970, after proving itself ready to run its own affairs by actually doing so for several decades while it was cut off from Russia. The mess that resulted in the meantime is temporary, a historical anomaly, and already in the process of being cleaned up. North Americans of the OCA govern their own affairs. The heads of the non-OCA churches have to answer to superiors in the Old World.

There are pan-Orthodox services, suppers, conventions and assemblies, singles groups, clergy meetings, youth groups, campus ministries, and so on. All of the heads of all the canonical Orthodox jurisdictions in the U.S. (many of whom have jurisdictions in Canada) belong to the Standing Committee of Orthodox Bishops in America (SCOBA). My own parish holds joint Wednesday night services each week with a parish of a different jurisdiction every summer.

Regards,
Tauf

[ephraimanesti]

To answer your question: YES, all Orthodox Christian organizations answer to the same Person--our Lord Jesus Christ! (That is a somewhat facetious answer, but true non-the-less.) OrthoTauf gave an excellent explanation regarding the status of the various juristinctions and how they are categorized, but i think it is important, if you are looking into Orthodoxy, to focus on the Spiritual, rather than the political and cultural, aspects of God's Church. The best way to do this is to visit as many Orthodox Churches close to you as possible and find one you feel comfortable in and with. Talk to the Priest or a Deacon--DO NOT BE BASHFUL! your interest and questions will bless them as much as the answers will bless you--and obtain some reading assignments to get you properly grounded in the Orthodox Faith--most will usually recommend a mixture of the writings of the early Church Fathers coupled with more recent writings such as those of recent Saints such as Saint Theophan or Saint Silouan, and Monks from Mount Athos such as Elder Ephraim or Elder Joseph.
In this regard, it is important to remember that above all Orthodoxy is a way of life rather than the memorizing of dogmas you may be used to if you come from a Protestant background, so don't be surprised at Orthodoxy's apparent lack of structure. The structure is there--it is just internal (of the heart) rather than external (of the mind.) i'm sure you will catch on fast. If you get stuck, find a little child to help you get over the confusing parts like i did :) .
Everyone has their favorite Orthodox book which they usually recommend to enquirers. Mine is "CHRIST THE ETERNAL TAO" by Hieromonk Damascene. It is the first Orthodox book i came across and it was the one that brought me into the True Faith. Check it out--may you likewise be blessed! :amen:

WITH LOVE IN CHRIST AND HOPES FOR YOUR QUICK UNIFICATION WITH HIS CHURCH, :wave:
ephraimanesti

[EricTheRed]

Cool I see. Should they just Make one orthodox church in America like in other countries.

[eoe]

Should they just Make one orthodox church in America like in other countries.
That is the type of topic that they write books about. Way too hard a topic to deal with here. Some say yes - some no. It is something that will not be worked out real soon.

[pilgrimtim]

An American Orthodox church is on it way but with every wave of Orthodox immigrant comnig, starting churches, bringing priests there is a setback. You only imagine the set backto be over come from century old waves of immigrants. As America is evangelized by the Orthodox church the church find a way to come together and show visibly the invisible unity it already possesses

[ephraimanesti]

Yes, Eric, you hit the nail right on the head--there should indeed be only ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSLOLIC ORTHODOX CHURCH in this country! As mentioned by eoe, it is a seriously complicated subject which probably won't be worked out anytime soon--human nature being what it is. But i don't agree that it's too complicated to be addressed in this Forum.
God has a way of quickly cutting through the red tape and making things happen when they are His will and His children petition Him prayerfully to make them happen. There is no doubt in my mind that the divisions and separations within the Orthodox Church in this country are not according to God's will--He has said, has He not, Himself and through Saint Paul and others, that we are to be One Body and that divisions among us constitute a serious sin. (I mean, who wants a Bride chopped up into little pieces!) i think it is a serious tragedy and a very bad testimony that many geographical areas of the country have 2 or more Bishops overseeing them in direct conflict with the pronouncements of the Ecumenical Counsels; i think it is a serious tragedy that i cannot walk into any Orthodox Church in the country and receive Divine Communion (i have been rebuffed, and that is a serious hurt, let me tell you!); and i think it is a serious tragedy that Orthodoxy cannot present a united front in the fight against the evils of our society and world because of the wasted resources, energy, and manpower occuring because of a duplication of efforts on the part of all the different juristinctions in working towards the same goals--SEPARATELY. (These examples are in addition to the fact that all those different listings in the Yellow Pages under Eastern Orthodox makes us look like protestants ^_^ !)
Soooooooooooooo . . . i think this topic, even though complicated and sometimes, unfortunately, emotional, deserves heavy discussion among Orthodox believers--not because Orthodoxy is a democracy and we can vote for the changes we want, but so that we can unite in prayer for this ONENESS and UNITY of God's Church--physically as well as Spiritually--being assured that IF it is God's will, as i feel that there is every indication that it is, both from Scripture and from the writings of the Fathers, that God, through His Holy Spirit, will make it happen. We, however, have to knock before the Door can be opened. Let's do that! :groupray:

MAY ALL BE BLESSED IN THE UNION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!
ephraimanesti

P.S. Eric--May God bless that your catecumenate may be short! :clap:

[OnTheWay]

There are alot of different Orthodox organizations like OCA and goarch. Why is this and do they all report to the same person?

Basically the Communist take over of Russia caused a jurisdictional nightmere as it cut off American Orthodoxy from the mother Church whose care it was under. The various other ethnic churches stepped in to try and fill the void leading to the various representives we have in the US. Now that the communists have been defeated and the jursidicitons ironed out the OCA is finally developing like it should. In theory we should come to a point where the OCA is the only Orthodox Church in America.

[EricTheRed]

P.S. Eric--May God bless that your catecumenate may be short! :clap:

Well I have only been to the church once. I was gonna go sunday but my alarm clock was on pm :doh:. I am hoping after I attend for awhile I can become a catechumen.

[choirfiend]

i think it is a serious tragedy that i cannot walk into any Orthodox Church in the country and receive Divine Communion (i have been rebuffed, and that is a serious hurt, let me tell you!);

My priest spoke about that this evening. As stewards of the Eucharist, priests have the responsibility to deny the reception of the Eucharist to anyone they need to. He said that he tells parishioners that if they visit a church, walk in, and are denied communion, to accept that humbly and not be become hurt. The priest does not have to give communion to someone that they are not sure is Orthodox (and approaching the Chalice is not the time to tell him!) and that if the parish you are visiting has different standards of preparation to receive to respect that as well. You would respect it if you were a regular member there; why wouldnt you respect it if you were a visitor? He said, if the priest where you're visiting says you need to go to confession right then before communing later during the Liturgy, to go make a heartfelt confession and not think that one's own discernment is so great that one is as fully prepared as one could be. It's not a rebuffing or a rejection of you; it is in protection and honor of the Body and Blood of Christ.

If you are visiting a church and would like to receive, the proper thing is to let the priest know in advance: call, email, or write well in advance, or even have an acolyte bring the priest a note in the altar if it's really short notice. He shouldnt have to wonder who you are when you approach, though most times he can at least tell who is Orthodox and who is not by how they are presenting themselves.

[repentant]

Yes, Eric, you hit the nail right on the head--there should indeed be only ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSLOLIC ORTHODOX CHURCH in this country

As far as I know, they are all one. Jurisdictions do not matter. The Apostles started the jurisdictions, so why is it so bad now?

[choirfiend]

It's bad because the Apostles only started one per town. They didn't overlap. What we have in this country is because of modern travel possiblities and that danged communist problem. The situation we have now was NEVER intended by the Apostles and is something we have to correct and put back on its proper path. This takes time, but if we stop being worried about "our" property and stop wanting to have the mission churches under the control of the EP, or MP, or Archbishop, or whoever, we can keep walking the path towards one Church in faith AND administration in the US.

[ephraimanesti]

DEAR-TO-GOD REPENTANT: Choirfiend and OnTheWay spoke well to the problem you were puzzled by--"what's wrong with jurisdictions?" If you read Acts of the Apostles and the Letters of Saint Paul, you will see, as they say, that there was only ONE Church in each town. Later, as the Church grew, the number of Churches in a given area, of course, also grew--but in a given geographical area, all these Churches were under the leadership of a single Bishop. You can read the Fathers--the Letters of Ignatius, for example--and see that this is so. It is also logical. This arrangement was also ratified and mandated by the Ecumenical Church Counsels (due to advancing senility, i forget which ones).
As we speak, in the United States, there are a multitude of different Churches under different jurisdictions in a given area, overseen by several Bishops, this being a violation of Counsel pronouncements. Some of these Orthodox Churches are not even in Communion with each other--which i hesitate to label heresy, but . . .?! :mad:
Anyway, if we had ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in this country--call it the OCA or whatever, resources could be solitified, the Body of Christ could come together as one in the struggle against the evils which assail us, and we would certainly present a better testimony to the TRUTH of our beliefs as Orthodox if we were all speaking the same thing at the same time--or at least using the same calendar, for goodness sake! (In addition, if you look in the Yellow Pages under Eastern Orthodoxy, there is a listing of Orthodox Churchs in the various jurisdictions half a page long in various categories--making us look like protestants ^_^ !) This is not even dealing with the issue of our wrongfully separated brothers and sisters in the Oriental Orthodox Church.
MUCH PRAYER IS NEEDED THAT GOD WILL INDEED MAKE US ONE AS OUR LORD PRAYED FOLLOWING THE FIRST EUCHARIST THAT WE WOULD BE!
:groupray: LET'S DO THAT!

WITH MUCH LOVE,
ephraimanesti

[ExOrienteLux]

Correction: This -

There are a tiny number of radical breakaway groups that are not canonical, such as ROCOR, a church that does not recognize the validity of the Moscow patriarchate (and ROCOR is thus not recognized by any of the 19 jurisdictions which do).

- is false. ROCOR is in reconciliation talks with Moscow, and has always been in communion with Jerusalem and Belgrade. Thus, they are in indirect communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, and are quite far from being 'radical' or 'breakaway'.

Thank you. Carry on.

-Philip

[OrthoTauf]

Correction: This -



- is false. ROCOR is in reconciliation talks with Moscow, and has always been in communion with Jerusalem and Belgrade. Thus, they are in indirect communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, and are quite far from being 'radical' or 'breakaway'.

Thank you. Carry on.

-Philip

I knew about reconciliation being worked on (which should mean that here in the U.S., if accomplished, they'll become part of the OCA), but I didn't know about Jerusalem and Belgrade.

[choirfiend]

No, it doesnt necessarily mean they'll become administratively part of the OCA, but it sure does mean that communion would be restored.