Deified Protestant? [Archive]

orthodoxy

28th November 2005, 11:27 PM

HI!!!

Although i am Protestant, i believe firmly in deification as a holy and neccassary part of Salvation and of God's Grand Master Plan for humanity. However, as you are probably well aware, this teaching (which is all over the Bible) has generally been disregarded by the Protestants as a non-essential and even heretical teaching. They seem to confuse the Christian theosis with the Pagan apotheosis. How would i bring up this teaching to a Protestant without being labeled a "God-hating Catholic" (yeah... it's happened)?

You might be able to talk about this with a mormon however it is a tad different in the mormon christian faith.

Talking about this subject to protestants is like talking about who is and who is not a christian with the orthodox. I get called a "God hating orthodox" when I do that!

Maybe by saying "we are to become like Christ" correct? and He is God? Do a "christian" become Jesus Christ when a "christian" "becomes like Him"? No.

Fact is man lost the likeness of God not His image in the fall thus retaining our "likeness" of Him is theosis.

I think Saint Anthony said "no theosis without kenosis" which is to say unless one empty's himself of self he cannot gain His likeness. Christ sits human nature at the right hand of God, deified like Him.

kyril

xristos.anesti

28th November 2005, 11:35 PM

How would you bring it up? - with lots of love and charity, like it is always the case.

Many years.

Xpycoctomos

28th November 2005, 11:43 PM

Not sure: but if you were called such perhaps ask these people to then defend how they could ever put "God-hating" and "Catholic" in the same phrase.

I would suggest you talk about when Christ said we would all become gods. What does that mean? Obviously He wasn't lying. To me it seems it can only mean either what the Mormon's suggest (that the elect will become gods unto themselves and start their own creations) or what the "God-hating Catholics" and Orthodox have always said in that we partake in the divinity of Christ (not that we become God himself... but that we become divinized. The former mormon doctrine can be easily dismissed if one just look at the context of the Scriptures. The latter ont he other hand can be well defended by scripture and the witness and history of the early Church. Others here will surely be able to offer MUCH more scriputual evidence although I am not sure if Sola Scriptura will help in the end... everyone has their own semi- (if not fully) unguided interpretation of what the Scripotures are trying to say based on what they feel the Spirit is telling them. Sorry, I'm really not meaning to be snotty... it's just that it can be like a merry-go-round arguing the meaning of scripture with some Protestants who hold on fiercly to a fundamentalist view of SS wherein at the end it just comes down to an endless argument of "How do you know you interpretation is right?"

So, just beware if the discussion is going no where. It took me a while to learn that there is not always "a way" to convince every person of everything.

John

Xpycoctomos

28th November 2005, 11:46 PM

You might be able to talk about this with a mormon however it is a tad different in the mormon christian faith.
It's a world of difference... but you are perhaps correct in that maybe there is some common starting point (even if it is somewhat imagined).

Talking about this subject to protestants is like talking about who is and who is not a christian with the orthodox. I get called a "God hating orthodox" when I do that!

Maybe by saying "we are to become like Christ" correct? and He is God? Do a "christian" become Jesus Christ when a "christian" "becomes like Him"? No.

Fact is man lost the likeness of God not His image in the fall thus retaining our "likeness" of Him is theosis.

I think Saint Anthony said "no theosis without kenosis" which is to say unless one empty's himself of self he cannot gain His likeness. Christ sits human nature at the right hand of God, deified like Him.

kyril

deserved repeating... more precise and accurate than how I expressed theosis.

Oblio

28th November 2005, 11:57 PM

Read these articles on Theosis (http://mycopticchurch.com/articles/).

The links on each page are broke, use the above link to get to each page.

Xpycoctomos

28th November 2005, 11:59 PM

Also, theosis is when we are sanctified... made holy... set apart... this is being diefied. So look for sanctified in the scriputres. This is the very process of theosis.

icxn

29th November 2005, 12:06 AM

Hmm... striving for theosis without sacraments and without a spiritual father... it is like a newbie climbing mount Everest without gear and without a guide... good luck. :help:

Oblio

29th November 2005, 12:13 AM

Xpycoctomos

29th November 2005, 12:25 AM

And might I piggy back on that suggestion and offer the book Common Ground:An introduction to Eastern Chrsitianity by Jordan Bajis (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0937032816/103-3404637-4359054?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance)which expounds VERY well one what Oblio was just talking about. not very expensive (19 bucks) considering it's size and accuracy (and it backs up its claims too with cites).

John

Joykins

29th November 2005, 12:25 AM

HI!!!

Although i am Protestant, i believe firmly in deification as a holy and neccassary part of Salvation and of God's Grand Master Plan for humanity. However, as you are probably well aware, this teaching (which is all over the Bible) has generally been disregarded by the Protestants as a non-essential and even heretical teaching. They seem to confuse the Christian theosis with the Pagan apotheosis. How would i bring up this teaching to a Protestant without being labeled a "God-hating Catholic" (yeah... it's happened)?

I am with you there.

Becoming Christlike...children of God...a new creature...transformed.

Protestants will agree that all the above is scriptural.

There are some protestants who regard salvation as a get-out-of-hell-free card. These would be the ones most opposed to the idea of theosis, I'd think.

I also think some of the "fear" of deification is that the sin of Satan is regarded to be a striving to be better than or like God...this is why Eve ate the apple...people are unsure whether this is salvation or sin.

Oblio

29th November 2005, 12:52 AM

I also think some of the "fear" of deification is that the sin of Satan is regarded to be a striving to be better than or like God...this is why Eve ate the apple...people are unsure whether this is salvation or sin.

We attempt to acheive theosis by first repenting and emptying ourselves of passions, then contemplation, finally we are transformed through Christ working in us (theosis). The first step especially guards against the fear you speak of. There is always the chance to fall into spiritual prelest and other attacks from demons and the evil one, which is why it is unwise to undertake the process without a spiritual father (or mother).

Theophorus

29th November 2005, 01:22 AM

HI!!!

Although i am Protestant, i believe firmly in deification as a holy and neccassary part of Salvation and of God's Grand Master Plan for humanity. However, as you are probably well aware, this teaching (which is all over the Bible) has generally been disregarded by the Protestants as a non-essential and even heretical teaching. They seem to confuse the Christian theosis with the Pagan apotheosis. How would i bring up this teaching to a Protestant without being labeled a "God-hating Catholic" (yeah... it's happened)?

I have been in your shoes. The scriptures are loaded with the concept, "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." Every opportunity to capatalize on these verses, I took. (I used to teach the adult bible study)

I made no headway. After my conversion, I think I understand why. Most read the scriptures with their passions. Looking to justify or excuse something. Not all of the time, but when it challenges their view. Submitting to the interpretation of the Church, has made reading, and recalling scripture much easier. It has become as food and drink, not as something to master.

I only mention this so that you are aware of how scripture is approached by many in protestant denominations; as something to master, and with one's passions to excuse or justify. I have no solution, but I give you a perspective I did not have when I was in the same boat.

ephraimanesti

29th November 2005, 06:26 AM

The thought occurs to me, my brother, that if your seriously believe in theosis and desire this glorious state for yourself--why do you sound intent on remaining a protestant? i speak in love and i don't want to be offensive, but the Orthodox Church has been entrusted with the ways and means to achieve theosis--primary among which, of course, is the Precious Body and Blood of Our Lord as provided in the Mystery of the Euchrist, a Mystery not available to protestants.
Likewise, the Orthodox Church alone provides to tools and the methodology necessary to overcome our passions and sinfulness so as to enable us to break free from the power of the evil one and of our sinful flesh and be gradually transformed into the image and likeness of our Lord, Savior, and God Jesus Christ. The best protestantism can provide is good intentions--Orthodoxy alone provides the ways and means of carrying them out and bearing the ultimate fruit of our struggles--theosis.
May our loving God open the eyes of your heart that you may see the path He has laid out before you and have the courage to take it.

MAY YOU BE BLESSED!
ephraimanesti

Xpycoctomos

29th November 2005, 09:38 AM

[Scripture] has become as food and drink, not as something to master.

That's an excellent way to put it. I never quite saw it that way before. Thanks for that.

Cappadocian

29th November 2005, 01:05 PM

Talk about transformation and transfiguration rather than divinization, deification or theosis. Used words that grate less on the Protestant's ears, because the problem is symantic and not real, so just try to use language that won't scandalize their ears. Or just say "forget about them."

Deiesous

29th November 2005, 01:34 PM

Hmm... striving for theosis without sacraments and without a spiritual father... it is like a newbie climbing mount Everest without gear and without a guide... good luck. :help:

OK, first, this doesn't help the conversation, second, Protestants do have Sacraments, third, I do have a spiritual (Christian) guide, fourth, I'm not orthodox but i know that Jesus never said that these were needed for theosis to occur- only HE is ne necassary. When it comes down to it, GOD deifies, not sacraments or Fathers. Yes, i strive to reach deification, but not by my partaking in sacraments or getting councel from priests, but by the Sacrifice of our Sweet Lord Jesus.

*steam comes out of ears* i need to pray...:sigh: :crosseo: :sigh:

Deiesous

29th November 2005, 01:37 PM

Might I suggest you look into Orthodoxy. Explain to your parents the reasons we reject communion with the RCC. Papal claims, doctrinal development, purgatory .... These are quite possibly those things that upset them. Explain that those thigs that caused the Reformation were never part of Orthodoxy. They may be open to your exploring and perhaps visiting an EO church.

I've tried that. I have to fight with my mom to let me visit the Greek Orthodox Church down the street. I've grown familiar with the priest (Fr. John) and love talking with and to him, but my mom hates that i'm not as close-minded as her. She is very stereotypical, talking about religion to her is easier said than done.

choirfiend

29th November 2005, 01:44 PM

But where is Christ? He is the Body, and the Body of Christ is the Church. You're right that only Christ is needed, but Christ comes to us in the Holy Mysteries, most importantly as His Body and His Blood in the Eucharist, which is done by the Holy Spirit by those who received their authority by the Holy Spirit through the Apostles--The Church.

Oblio

29th November 2005, 01:59 PM

OK, first, this doesn't help the conversation, second, Protestants do have Sacraments, third, I do have a spiritual (Christian) guide, fourth, I'm not orthodox but i know that Jesus never said that these were needed for theosis to occur- only HE is ne necassary. When it comes down to it, GOD deifies, not sacraments or Fathers. Yes, i strive to reach deification, but not by my partaking in sacraments or getting councel from priests, but by the Sacrifice of our Sweet Lord Jesus.

*steam comes out of ears* i need to pray...:sigh: :crosseo: :sigh:

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
(Joh 6:53-56)

Xpycoctomos

29th November 2005, 02:55 PM

Deiesous,

You're right to a point... without Christ it is all useless. All we are trying to say is that Christ gave us awesome tools to know Him through. This is a lame example, but think of the Church as the toolshed. In their you find prayer, the scriptures (both of which you have) the sacraments (baptism, absolution -which Christ does talk about very explicitly in the Scriptures, the Eucharist - and some of these you may have in some form or another) the writings from the Church Fathers and other wise people who have struggled in Christ, the advice from our spiritual fathers and the support of the community. All of this is very important. Christ gave us all of these tools and all of these tools, while intensly personal, are innately communal. When we pray we are to pray "like this" and then Christ gives us the OUR Father... the entire prayer is either talking about God or US.. but never me. That is not to say that we can never pray for our personal selves. Certainly repentance is one of the best examples of this... or thanksgiving (I am sorry for what I did... Thank you Lord for blessing ME with such wonderful people...).

So talk about what is necessary... well... in the Orthodox Church we are taught genearlly not to cut things down between what is necessary and what is just helpful. We would say the entire Orthodox experience in necessary. It is not the scriptures OR confession... it is all of it. If you don't have confession, you are missing something... if you don't have the Eucharist... you are definitely missing something (and the Bible atests very firmly to this) if you are missing the advice from those who have run the good race before us... then we are only making things harder for ourselves and constantly re-inventing the wheel. Why do without any of it.

Are you able to achieve theosis through just reading the Scriptures and praying? Sure, but you may misuse some of those tools without proper instruction... and you are also missing some tools that would otherwise help a great deal. iT's kind of like building a house with a hammer, nails and a saw. Is it possible? Sure... but I think many builders would feel quyite lost without their other many tools and the task at hand might seem a bit more daunting than it would otherwise if they had all their other tools.

I'm sorry that we seemed to discourage you. We are quite zealous sometimes and we all believe very firmly in the fact that the Orthdoox Church is where the fulness of the faith was passed down and we love to show others why this is so... but I think at times i personally forget that others are on their own path (I hope towards Orthodoxy) and that we can't expect someone to embrace Orthodoxy in a thread. that's something very personal.

So, just keep Christ at the center, pray and Christ will do the rest. Sorry about the high pressure.

God bless,

john

PS: sorry for my rambling.

OnTheWay

29th November 2005, 05:41 PM

I hate to sound discouraging, but you are never going to succedd in witnessing the truth of Theosis to Protestants while attempting to remain within the protestant prespective. It's all related to protestant notions about what exactly salvation is. To the protestant salvation is the process by which we just avoid going to hell. To the Apostolic church salvation is the process in which we are reconciled to God and come into full communion with him. To the Orthodox or Roman believer this is a process that requires the Church and occurs with the life of the Church through it's sacraments and a life time of devotion to the service of God.

Xpycoctomos

29th November 2005, 06:18 PM

To the protestant salvation is the process by which we just avoid going to hell.

While I agree that there are tendancies that many protestants hold in common, we have to be careful not to treat the protestants as a unified fgroup with unified beliefs. There is a reason they don't all have just one big forum here at CF. I agree that many, perhaps even most, protestants (being products of the West) see salvation primarily in this way (of avoiding hell, rather than gaining God) it is not fair to say that all see it this way. A good many protestants have worked hard to reject this western notion and may very well be able to take on an early-church idea of salvation/theosis.

I agree with you that the OPer will be hard pressed to convince protestants of this... but I'm not sure what kind of protestants he is dealing with and if it is a non-denom Church.. then it could be anything.

But, in the end, I am not too concerned with this and i don't think that the OPer should be too concerned with covincing others either. IT seems that you are grasping what salvation truly is... theosis... and that's good. But don't worry about convincing others of this. 1) as we have pointed out, you are fighting a very up-hill battle and 2) worry about your own theosis... that will lead you to truth. There was an old canon of the Church that after someone converted to the faith, they were not allowed to talk for... a year was it? something like that. I think a main reason that was so was so that they did not give others bad advice/theology or become proud. To the OPer: you're not a convert, but you are young and also this idea is quite foreign to what you have probalby been brought up in... it is Orthodox. So just soak it up... learn about it through experience... perhaps latter you can work on explaining it... later... when you're perhaps Orthodox ;) No pressure lol

88Devin07

29th November 2005, 09:07 PM

*soapbox*
Mormons are NOT Christian... This is believed by the large majority of Christians from all denominations.
*off soapbox*

Many protestants don't understand other Christian's beliefs. Look at General Theology and the Theology section as a whole.
Most that I know shut themselves off from beliefs outside Protestantism.

Yet you will want to educate them and tell them the difference between Christian "deification" (not becoming God) and Pagan (including Mormons) deification (becoming a god)

OnTheWay

29th November 2005, 09:22 PM

While I agree that there are tendancies that many protestants hold in common, we have to be careful not to treat the protestants as a unified fgroup with unified beliefs. There is a reason they don't all have just one big forum here at CF. I agree that many, perhaps even most, protestants (being products of the West) see salvation primarily in this way (of avoiding hell, rather than gaining God) it is not fair to say that all see it this way. A good many protestants have worked hard to reject this western notion and may very well be able to take on an early-church idea of salvation/theosis.

You are right, there certainly are within the protestant realm some quite large differences. Especially as it relates to the High Protestant churches vs. American evangelical protestantism. I was speaking a bit generally, as the average American will encounter the average American protestant. Equally though I believe this fault comes out of the Protestant theology of "by Scripture alone, by faith alone." I don't per se believe that Luther or other early Protestants meant for it to evolve in this way, but alas it did.

Xpycoctomos

30th November 2005, 02:47 PM

Back to the OP: this link (below) may not help you talk to protestants, but it will give you further in-depth knowledge as to how the Early Church saw theosis and the importance of distinguishing the divine essences and energies etc. I am not one to do this topic justice and I still have a lose grasp of it all... but I thought you, Deiesous, might be interested.

http://www.monachos.net/mb/messages/4225/23686.html?1132851486

God bless,

John

PS: Matthew Steenberg is especially good. his responses are long, but worth it. He knows his stuff.

Deiesous

30th November 2005, 03:01 PM

Thx for the link, but let's not deviate from the point. I know what theosis is, i learned about it from a Geek Orthodox Father, read Eastern Orthodox texts about it (contemporary and early church), along with Roman Catholic and Protestant texts. I am totally aware that the Orthodox Church does in fact hold the purest form of teaching on this matter, which is why i asked you and not the other two Branches of the Church (RC & P), but i am still Potestant. I want to know the best way to talk to other Protestants without being labeled a blasphemer (kind of hard with a teaching this powerful ;))

Xpycoctomos

30th November 2005, 03:30 PM

I guess you'd have to ask a protestant... we haven't had much luck with this ourselves (so it seems from the posts here).

In the end... it doesn't really matter. Just work towards theosis... pray, read scriptures and perhaps one day Christ will lead you to the OC. Don't worry abot that now. You're 15. Go to Church with your parents and don't worrya bout convicing others of this.

John

xristos.anesti

30th November 2005, 03:44 PM

The pain of wanting to share the revelation with others, others that do not see it that way is as old as the universe itself.

However, sometimes it is very necessary and indeed proper to see it in a way that will show to us that others might not see it our way.

How to present things to those who disagree with us?
What to say and how to say it?

These are the questions that, in time, you will know the answers on. And no-one can show you the way... It is a jungle out there, and you have a small knife to cut the highway for yourself and your ideas.

Wisdom is gained with age, and knowledge with time spent learning... Whatever you gain - use it wisely.

Many years.

nb_christseeker

30th November 2005, 04:03 PM

Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
Mat 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

88Devin07

30th November 2005, 05:39 PM

*raises hand

You forget i'm a Protestant (though a humble inquirer to Orthodoxy).

Protestants can be very cruel and yes, at times, unchristian in their attitude and treatment of others. You must emphasis to them that becoming deified doesn't mean becoming a god, yet becoming like God in a sense of eternal life and purification.You don't becoming omnipotent or omniscient, nor infallible like God, but you become like him.

You must really emphasis this and tell them the difference between what they are talking about and what you are. Most of protestant rejection and hate of Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism comes from misunderstanding and closed-mindedness.

I used to think they worshiped the Saints and Mary. But now i've learned the truth. They pray to them, but ask them to pray to God. They cannot do God's work for him, but can help you through themselves as vessels of God.

Just tell them (calmly) that they are misunderstanding what you are trying to tell them. Explain it in simple terms (if anything could be in such a complex subject).

Anyone have anything else on how to tell Protestants about this subject?

OnTheWay

30th November 2005, 07:04 PM

Every time I look at the title of this thread at first glance I think it says "defiled protestant." Is that just me?

Xpycoctomos

30th November 2005, 07:37 PM

Every time I look at the title of this thread at first glance I think it says "defiled protestant." Is that just me?

No...

you're just wierd...

;)

Deiesous

2nd December 2005, 01:46 PM

PEOPLE, OFF TOPIC ;) So... about the Protestants talking about deification?

Xpycoctomos

2nd December 2005, 01:57 PM

I think Devin gave some good ideas.

I still think you shouldn't worry about convincing others.

choirfiend

2nd December 2005, 02:02 PM

Deification has everything to do with salvation. Since Protestants have a different teaching on salvation, based on a different teaching about sin and what Christ did on the cross (and also by His life, by Orthodox teaching), as well as on every possible way that we Orthodox would say we strive towards deification (prayer, fasting, true worship, sacramental grace, "works," n all that...)--You'd be better off teaching it as part of Orthodoxy. It doesn't stand on it's own outside the Church, so unless you're convinced by the Orthodox teaching on all those subjects and many more and are approaching deification (theosis) through the Orthodox pathway, I dont think you could possibly do it justice or convince anyone of it.

Theosis is not separate from life in the Church. Unless you're experiencing that and believe in it, you're not going to be truly participating in it in order to convince others.

Oblio

2nd December 2005, 03:18 PM

In a nutshell, until you complete the task of convincing them that salvation is a process, all talk of theosis will be in vain.

Melethiel

2nd December 2005, 07:31 PM

OnTheWay

2nd December 2005, 09:07 PM

For the Orthodox Theosis is the end of a long hard road, the straight and narrow path to put it in biblical language. For an Orthodox Christian this starts with baptism, continues through the life of the Church (sacraments, fasts, ect.) and in the personal daily stuggle between us and our sinful nature. For the Orthodox Christian this is a life time of faith, prayer, and work to grow spiritually.

Not to be overly general, but the vast majority of American protestants do not have this understanding of Christian life. For them the beginning and the end is the moment you believe in Jesus as your personal savior. Regardless of what you do, or what you do not do, it's a finished matter. You cannot convince someone of the importance of going to a place when they think they've already arrived there. Nothing can be seperated from the life of the Church, and thus you cannot take Theosis without the whole of the life of the Church, the body of Christ.

OnTheWay

2nd December 2005, 09:11 PM

Since I've sworn off GH, I guess I'm stuck here...so no fair playing the "Protestants don't believe Sacraments are necessary" card. ;)
To the OP: depends on what flavor of Protestant you're talking about, but comparing theosis to "sanctification" might be helpful. It's not a direct relationship, but it's similar.

To be equally fair the vast majority of American protestantism does not believe that Sacraments or the Church are necessary. :P
You'd run into the same basic problem, the biggest bulk of American protestants believe sanctification occurs at the moment one believes in Jesus as a personal savior and after that nothing else is required.