penance

[eoe]

What is the Orthodox view on penance? RC invention?

[Oblio]

What is the Orthodox view on penance? RC invention?

It is unless the windows up by the dome need cleaning :)

[Wiffey]

In my understanding, Orthodox priests usually only give a pennance in very rare and severe cases, and the pennance is usually to refrain from approaching the chalice and receiving Holy Communion for a period of time. Not so much as a punishment, but to make sure that their soul is ready to receive. Example: if someone is a drug addict, having an affair, has an abortion or kills someone by accident. Even if the person is sorry and confesses, they need time to get their act together before returning to full participation in Church life. I do believe that those undergoing a pennance are encouraged to come to church regularly and continue meeting with their Confessor and may commune at the Easter resurrection service.

[icxn]

Penance is the crutch that you are given when you break your spiritual legs (EO view). It is not the whip by which you flog the poor patient to satisfy the doctor's rights (RC? view).

...or something like that.

[gzt]

If you mean on the order of "say ten 'hail mary's...", it's not common, but I've seen it done. Whether it's a Catholic invention or not, I don't know, but the Orthodox priests I've seen doing such things generally give them to help the penitent overcome the sin, not as a punishment or something necessary for forgiveness [unless it is something necessary for forgiveness, ie, returning stolen property or apologizing for an insult]. Not that that necessarily distinguishes the practice from the Catholic practice. If you mean, "A murderer must do penance for X years [ie, withdraw from communion and all that]," that's a very old canon and is ecumenical.

[Maximus]

As I understand the Orthodox and RC views of penance, they aren't all that different. Penance is assigned as the cure for what ails the sinner. It is not really penalty or punishment - as if we could ever really do enough to "pay" for our sins - it is something done to help remedy a sinful condition, like a prescription of medicine remedies a medical malady.

I know that, in the course of confession and absolution, the things priests have told me to do have always proven surprisingly effective.

[xristos.anesti]

I don't know how Latins do it - so I can not comment, but I am under penance right now, the cure remedied is: Keep your mouth shut and your soul open.

[Xpycoctomos]

In my understanding, Orthodox priests usually only give a pennance in very rare and severe cases, and the pennance is usually to refrain from approaching the chalice and receiving Holy Communion for a period of time. Not so much as a punishment, but to make sure that their soul is ready to receive. Example: if someone is a drug addict, having an affair, has an abortion or kills someone by accident. Even if the person is sorry and confesses, they need time to get their act together before returning to full participation in Church life. I do believe that those undergoing a pennance are encouraged to come to church regularly and continue meeting with their Confessor and may commune at the Easter resurrection service.

This is how I have understood it. If it's an RC thing then... call me a romaphile! :) (ya ya, I know that means a gypsy lover, but I think we all get it :))

[Monica, child of God]

I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between a RC priest telling you to say 10 Hail Mary's and 5 Our Fathers and an Orthodox priest telling you to attend to your Morning and Evening prayers more diligently and to say the Jesus prayer during appropriate times. Both the RC and the Orthodox priest are trying to get you back on track so that you can be on guard for sin. The advice I get during confession usually includes a prescription for increased prayer and reading of Scripture.

M.

[Annoula]

i can't resist but write my own experience. it's not a good one though...

i was around 16 years old, just before Christmas time, and my religious school encouraged confession to some of their own priests. i have been to confession before but it was something "i had to do", nothing more than that.

so it was a teacher i think that suggested a new young priest, who had just started with the confession thing. i suppose they were "promoting" him.
so... i went to him.

i told him all my sins...from which 2 of them made him give me a penance.

the first sin was "i was watching a lot of tv" - so he told me not to watch tv for a week (it was the last week before Christmas)

the second sin was "i was talking with a boy on the phone"
(needless to say there was nothing more than silly talking, how's school and things like that) - so he told me to not talk to him for a week.

when i do these 2 things i can receive the Holy Communion on Christmas and then i should go back to him and tell him what i have done - how i did.

i went home crying, told my mother what he told me and she herself found it to be somehow hard. anyway, i tried another priest again from my school. i told him what the former priest told me, and he didn't contradict anything. i think he wanted to be diplomatic and avoided giving a different opinion.

this thing wrecked my limited young life for at least a week. and i suppose caused implications till now.

i did what he told me. i went back to him, with a coldness in the heart, told him that ok i didn't manage the whole tv off, but didn't talk with the guy for a week (although i called him the next day, well the punishment was just for one week!!).

his reply was "i didn't expect you to come back"

well....



it took me years and years to understand that a penance is not "punishment". although i don't think i am totally over it.

i told a monk about this a couple of years before and he showed his objection but did not comment on it.

i just wanted someone to support me and openly say "WHAT THIS PRIEST TOLD YOU WAS NOT RIGHT! HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING! HE WAS TOTALLY WRONG!"


i think i have to let it go and forgive him, but it's pretty hard. i suppose that he was young and didn't know much of how to handle a confession and he understood that in the end, but still i got hurt deeply and i feel so angry and hurt at the same time.

maybe i feel angry cause i didn't have the guts to tell him "NO you are wrong, you are not interested in my spiritual growth, you don't even know me, you don't even know why i do these "sins", you know nothing about me! you have no right to give such a punishment-penance to me!"
i thought that whatever a priest says you just obey, but it's not exactly that way in Orthodoxy.

sorry for my rambling...

this thing always make me feel bad...

darn

[Llauralin]

What was it that made you so angry; was it just because he didn't know you? Sounds like something that's pretty standard among the people I know, along with "throw out the Nintendo" (in a very literal sense) and "no TV shall be seen in this house (any, at all). Not sure what was up with the boy, but I guess that's not really my busness anyway.

In my experience pastors are allowed to issue things like the "media fast" (no CDs, movies, tv, computer, etc. for an alloted period of time) when we were spending too much time amusing ourselves, but usually it was given as a "challenge" rather than a "penance." Similar idea though imo.

[Akathist]

Last Lent, I was working very hard to get two brass candle stands clean, removing the old stained lacquer coating and cleaning and polishing. I had taken them home and was bringing them back in when my Godmother saw me and said "Oh, so you were doing penance?" I laughed and said "Well, I deserve penance but no, I was just doing this "just because".

Before I was baptised/chrismated, my Priest told me I had to contact people and apologize to them. He did the same thing with a conflict between my mother and I a couple months ago. This is penance I guess, but he never said if I didn't do it I couldn't take communion. However, my personal view is that if I refused to be obediant to my Spiritual Director (in my case my Priest) than I would not let myself take communion as I consider obedience to be an essential Orthodox belief. (I know not everyone agrees with this, but it is what I see in the Saints lives, so I have kind of come to this conclusion on my own.)

[OnTheWay]

The doctrines aren't very different at all. How they are viewed is another matter all together. In the Roman Church the counter-reformation and schoalisticism have left the view of the doctrine in very judicial terms. Saying prayers aren't viewed in their proper context, and appeal for assistance to over come the sin. They are viewed as a price, looking at pornography will require you to say X number of Hail Mary's much as in the courts if one speeds the cost is X number of dollars.

The Orthodox Church hasn't fallen into this judical view and maintains a proper understanding. When one falls down (sins) then offering prayers and amending one's life is the means by which we stand back up (repent). Thus we must view the penance not as a fine, but as a prescription by which we may be healed spiritualy just as a medical prescription helps us heal our physical bodies.

[Xpycoctomos]

Thorngrace touches on a distinction that my priest often makes:

In the tradition he learned from, penance means that there are certain things you must do or pray or whatever but also that there is a certain amount of time you must refrain from approaching the chalice. But there are also obediences and these are similar to what the RCC calls penances in that you are told to do/pray this or that... you are expected to do it but the Chalice is not withheld from you. A difference is that they tend not to be X number of Hail Mary's or Our Fathers, but rather something you are supposed to do. An example might be saying thatyou are to give 20 bucks to someone (homeless or a friend/enemy in need) without their knowing, or similar to what Throny said or fasting an extra day or whatever... but these obediences (or even penances) should always be given with a reason as to WHY the person is doing it. It should not be seen so much as an arbitrary punishment, but rather spiritual medicine that may hurt or be uncomforable, but that, if done in the right spirit, will heal.

I agree with the last poster here that the tendancy in the West tends (or at least tended) to be very juridical... a kind of "pay up" and I think that htis is often the wrong approach to take... even if the action is comparable (this is not to say that priests in the East haven't also fell into this problem.. but I don't think it could be labeled and Eastern tendancy). However, I have a lot of Catholic friends who go often to confession and recieve what they call penances and it seems to me that the emphasis nowdays tends to be much less juridical and much more medicinal. Obviously there are exceptions and these exceptions may be greater proportionally in the West than in the East... but I think this tendancy in waining. While I may frown on a lot of the changes to RCC is undergoing these days since VII, there are a lot that I feel are very positive. While she still may have many juridical tendancies (which is certainly not always a bad thing... the bible is full of juridical allusions) it has softened those tendancies quite a bit... and I don't think that their use of penances (from what I here) is any exception. So kudos to them.

John

[marciadietrich]

My experience has been that even if given prayers as penance it is done in pairs. First for myself and my situation, then for others and their needs in an equal amount. Plus I try to add some for my priest as I know he is praying for me as well.

I've also had scripture reading for penance - like to read about the prodigal son or other stories of forgiveness and God's love, I've even had a go do something for myself to relax as penance.

I've never been taught that penance is exacting punishment (though you might abstain from something with the same attitude as fasting) but rather it is healing for ourselves, those we've hurt in our sin and correlates to reconciliation to the Body of Christ. To help get us back on the right track.

I know others in the past it seemed to be just a pay up attitude - and some people had hurtful experiences or just got no perceivable benefit from the sacrament and now just don't go to confession. Which that is too bad. Though generally we get quite a few people who come for the penance service we have during Advent. :)

Marcia

[Annoula]

What was it that made you so angry; was it just because he didn't know you? Sounds like something that's pretty standard among the people I know, along with "throw out the Nintendo" (in a very literal sense) and "no TV shall be seen in this house (any, at all). Not sure what was up with the boy, but I guess that's not really my busness anyway.

In my experience pastors are allowed to issue things like the "media fast" (no CDs, movies, tv, computer, etc. for an alloted period of time) when we were spending too much time amusing ourselves, but usually it was given as a "challenge" rather than a "penance." Similar idea though imo.


i didn't mind the tv fast that much. but i took it hard on the "boy-fast". although it was nothing more than silly kids' talk over the phone i had a prob with guys cause my school was a strict only-girls school and made me feel that boys were something bad.

after many years i had confession with another priest. i told him much more than friendly talking with boys and a lot of tv watching. the only thing he told me in the end was "you should receive the Holy Communion more often".
that brought tears in my eyes, and i could not stop them. i felt like he touched something deeper in myself, that the first priest did not.

this second priest is now the Metropolitis of Volos. i had been attending his lectures for around a year and sometimes i watch the tv show he has on sunday morning.
He is one of the greatest priests i've met in my life till now.