On the DL 11-27

[Ragamuffins]

This wednesday i am going to attempt to go to a workshop offered by a church that I did not know existed Holy Transfiguration Church that is much closer than St Elias (20 minutes closer) entitled "what is the church?". I guess every Wednesday they will be having this kind of a discussion and I just happend upon it while reading the paper the other day. One thing that bothers me is they did not show up on the OCA list, so how do i know they are true Orthodox? The address that is given also looks as if it is on a residential street, which makes no sense, but perhaps it is out of a house? What should I look for? SHould I ask if they are OCA?

Pardon my ignorance on that subject and on these...

Can anyone here define "magnify" for me?

During DL on Sunday I read this:
More honorable than the cherabim, and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim, Thou who without stain barest God the Word, and art truly the Theotokos, we magnify thee.

Even though I do not understand the Cherabim and Seraphim references, I will put that aside to focus on what is meant by "we magnify thee." When i think of magnify the first reference that comes to my mind is Luke 1:46 "And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,"

When she said it, I think she meant (from study anyway) to esteem highly, to extol, laud, celebrate the Lord.

But there are other words that are translated to magnify from the Greek that have other meanings, so I am wondering, what is meant by Orthodox who "magnify" Mary?

Another thing that got me wondering was:
Let us cry unto the Son, born of the father before the ages without transubstantiation, Christ God who hath been incarnate in these last days of the Virgin, without seed, shouting, “O thou who hath elevated our state, thou art holy, O Lord.”

The last days of the Virgin? Transubstantiation? WHat are these referring to in laymans terms please as they went right over my head.

Alot of the Orthos seemed to be centered around the resurrection. Do the Orthodox have a different take on when Easter is?

I liked the Psalms in every area of the Liturgy, and they were very familiar to me as I have always thoguht they were the most heart wrenching prayers in the Bible. Why on one hand to we have a Psalm that says cleanse me O Lord from my unrighteousness, have mercy upon me O God in thy great mercy, and then in another section have a cleanse me O Lord by the intercessions of the Theotokos? I do not want to get into the could she or can she intercede for us, but why is it that we mirror David and we cry out to God for His great mercy believing that He hears us and then ask God to hear the intercessions of the saints specifically the Theotokos? this seems as though it is a lack of faith to think that God will not hear us and be merciful to us without help from others. Just an observation.

More later if I can remember them all :)

[Ragamuffins]

Oh yeah:
"Glory be to the Holy, Consubstantial, life giving and undivided Trinity, always, now and forever and unto ages of ages."

I was suprised to see this term (Yes I know what it means :) ) in a DL, as i thought that was primarily a Lutheran or protestant term. It just stuck out at me that is all, no comments needed or anything :)

[Ragamuffins]

Eothinon 1 Theotokos Tone 2
Thou didst rejoice with the disciples, Or Virgin Theotokos; for thou didst behold Christ rising from the tomb on the third day as He said, who appeared to them teaching and declaring supremem things, ...

Where did the writer get the idea that anyone saw Christ rising as it is not recorded in scripture that anyone knew He had risen until the women went to visit the tomb?

[Oblio]

Let us cry unto the Son, born of the father before the ages without transubstantiation, Christ God who hath been incarnate in these last days of the Virgin, without seed, shouting, “O thou who hath elevated our state, thou art holy, O Lord.”

The last days of the Virgin? Transubstantiation? WHat are these referring to in laymans terms please as they went right over my head.


Orthodox worship is timeless. IOW, we often 'speak' in this temporal future, of things temporally past. e.g. Today O Virgin, you bring forth our Saviour and God ...


Alot of the Orthos seemed to be centered around the resurrection. Do the Orthodox have a different take on when Easter is?


Every Sunday is a little Pascha :) :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Oblio]

Eothinon 1 Theotokos Tone 2
Thou didst rejoice with the disciples, Or Virgin Theotokos; for thou didst behold Christ rising from the tomb on the third day as He said, who appeared to them teaching and declaring supremem things, ...

Where did the writer get the idea that anyone saw Christ rising as it is not recorded in scripture that anyone knew He had risen until the women went to visit the tomb?

My guess is that that phrase is not meant to imply that the actual Resurrection was witnessed. IOW, one could also write, Having beheld the Resurrection ... without meaning that the discrete event was witnessed but rather that it occured. IMO, a poor translation.

[Oblio]

Orthodox worship is timeless. IOW, we often 'speak' in this temporal future, of things temporally past. e.g. Today O Virgin, you bring forth our Saviour and God ...


This means that in our worship, especially during the Divine Liturgy, we are in a mystical way worshipping with all the Saints and Heavenly hosts not just in the present, but in true rememberance.

[Ragamuffins]

Troparion of the Resurrection Tone 6:
When Mary stood at thy grave looking for thy sacred body, angelic powers shone above thy revered tomb, and the soldiers who were to keep guard became as dead men. Thou led hades captive and wast not tempted thereby; Thou didst meet the Virgin and didst give life to the world; O Thou WHo art risen from the dead, O Lord, glory to Thee.

According to this account in Matthew (the only Gospel that records angels coming down and the guards) it was Mary Magdelan and the other Mary (possibly the mother of James?) not the Virgin, so what am i missing here from the embolded text?

From all of the texts it would seem that the Theotokos was not present at all during the first visit back to the grave.

[Ragamuffins]

My guess is that that phrase is not meant to imply that the actual Resurrection was witnessed. IOW, one could also write, Having beheld the Resurrection ... without meaning that the discrete event was witnessed but rather that it occured. IMO, a poor translation.
Thanks for the help Oblio :)

It would make sense to me as well to say : "Having witnessed the resurrected Christ..." which as we all know is true :)

[choirfiend]

This wednesday i am going to attempt to go to a workshop offered by a church that I did not know existed Holy Transfiguration Church that is much closer than St Elias (20 minutes closer) entitled "what is the church?". I guess every Wednesday they will be having this kind of a discussion and I just happend upon it while reading the paper the other day. One thing that bothers me is they did not show up on the OCA list, so how do i know they are true Orthodox? The address that is given also looks as if it is on a residential street, which makes no sense, but perhaps it is out of a house? What should I look for? SHould I ask if they are OCA?

Is it this address?
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=783+Franklin+Park+Drive,+East+Syracuse,+NY+13057,USA
It is a Bulgarian Orthodox Church. There would appear to be several churches within a short distance of you. Not all churches are OCA:) Bulgarian is good:)
SS. Peter & Paul Church
OCA 401 Hamilton St
Syracuse, NY 13204
315.468.0442

St. Sophia Church
GOA 325 Waring Road
Syracuse, NY 13224
315.446.5222

Three Holy Hierarchs: Basil, Gregory, and John
RMA 914 Crawford Ave
Syracuse, NY 13224
315-446-6186
frdaniel@romanianholytrinity.org

Holy Transfiguration Church
BEC 783 Franklin Park Drive
East Syracuse, NY 13057
315.434.9540
jmccaff333@aol.com

St. Elias Church
ANT 4988 Onondaga Rd
Syracuse, NY 13215
315.488.0388
steliasny@aol.com
www.sainteliasny.com/ (http://www.sainteliasny.com/)

St. Luke Parish
UCU 3290 Warners Road
Warners, NY 13164
315.468.3472

St. Sebastian's Refuge
Monasteries
BEC 2224 Ridge Road
Fabius, NY 13063
315.677.3911
normcopp@USExpress.net

St. Andrew's Camp & Chapel
OCA 1280 State Rd 49
Cleveland, NY 13042
315.675.8409

The list goes on....


Can anyone here define "magnify" for me?
I'll leave it up to someone who knows what the original Greek is, but to praise or celebrate sounds about right to me. We celebrate and praise an awful lot of people in the Orthodox Church. There are an awful lot of people who have been magnified (or glorified) in the Lord aka all the saints, of whom the Theotokos is the first in honor.

The last days of the Virgin?
You parsed it incorrectly. "Christ God who has been incarnate of the Virgin in these last days" would be another way to rearrange the prepositional clauses.

transubstantiation?
I would guess that it's referring to being "Of one essence with the Father," saying that Christ is eternally begotten of the Father without a change in essence between the two. Standard Nicene theology:)

Alot of the Orthos seemed to be centered around the resurrection.
Every Sunday is in celebration of the Resurrection. The Troparia and Kontakia (two of the hymns that change weekly) are for the Resurrection. Following them there are troparia and kontakia celebrating whatever other feast, event, or saint is being commemorated that day.

Why on one hand to we have a Psalm that says cleanse me O Lord from my unrighteousness, have mercy upon me O God in thy great mercy, and then in another section have a cleanse me O Lord by the intercessions of the Theotokos? I do not want to get into the could she or can she intercede for us, but why is it that we mirror David and we cry out to God for His great mercy believing that He hears us and then ask God to hear the intercessions of the saints specifically the Theotokos? this seems as though it is a lack of faith to think that God will not hear us and be merciful to us without help from others. Just an observation.

On the contrary, it's in recognition that God hears not only our own heartfelt cries, but the cries of all those who continue to pray for us even in heaven. If God would hear our cries, lowly sinners that we are, but ignored the cries of His saints who are with Him in paradise, what kind of God would He be? We are one Church, the Church Militant (those of us who struggle with the battles of this life) and the Church Triumphant (those who, having finished the race, receive the crown of incorruption and live with Christ in paradise). We all pray. There is no separation between the two. It is not "us vs. them" for we are one Church, one in the Body of Christ. This is why icons cover our churches. The Church Triumphant is praying right along side, or, rather, we are swept up into Heavenly worship with them in the Divine Liturgy.

[Oblio]

Troparion of the Resurrection Tone 6:
When Mary stood at thy grave looking for thy sacred body, angelic powers shone above thy revered tomb, and the soldiers who were to keep guard became as dead men. Thou led hades captive and wast not tempted thereby; Thou didst meet the Virgin and didst give life to the world; O Thou WHo art risen from the dead, O Lord, glory to Thee.

According to this account in Matthew (the only Gospel that records angels coming down and the guards) it was Mary Magdelan and the other Mary (possibly the mother of James?) not the Virgin, so what am i missing here from the embolded text?

From all of the texts it would seem that the Theotokos was not present at all during the first visit back to the grave.

Generally in our hymns, we use the term Virgin or most commonly Theotokos to refer to His mother. As I understand it, the first Mary in the Troparion is Mary Magdelene. Another translation that we use in our parish which is a little clearer that the meeting was after the Resurrection (pardon the caps, C&P from our bulletin :) )

THE ANGELIC POWERS WERE AT THY TOMB;
THE GUARDS BECAME AS DEAD MEN.
MARY STOOD BY THY GRAVE, SEEKING THY MOST PURE BODY.
THOU DIDST CAPTURE HELL, NOT BEING TEMPTED BY IT. THOU DIDST COME TO THE VIRGIN, GRANTING LIFE.
O LORD WHO DIDST RISE FROM THE DEAD:
GLORY TO THEE.

[ufonium2]

IThere would appear to be several churches within a short distance of you. Not all churches are OCA:) Bulgarian is good:)


Bulgarian is very cool!!!

[choirfiend]

Aha! See, Troparion of the Resurrection???? There are 8 of them that change each Sunday according to the tones. Then follows the troparion of the day.
We use that translation as well.

"Thou did come to the Virgin granting life"

Yes, He came to the Virigin and was born of her...This is what the phrase refers to.

[Ragamuffins]

Is it this address? It is a Bulgarian Orthodox Church. There would appear to be several churches within a short distance of you. Not all churches are OCA Bulgarian is good
Actually the one you found, is it, but the rest are not as close as you would think they are :) The one in Onodaga Hill that i have been going to to is 35 minutes away and is only eight miles difference fromt eh one in East Sysracuse. But because the roads are so goofy ...

Bulgarian eh? Sigh... I was just getting used to the nuances of the Antiochian church listed below. Where is Bulgaria anyway? Sigh. Are there any Pollock or English Orthodox churches around as they are my heritage?

Holy Transfiguration Church
BEC 783 Franklin Park Drive
East Syracuse, NY 13057
315.434.9540
jmccaff333@aol.com

St. Elias Church
ANT 4988 Onondaga Rd
Syracuse, NY 13215
315.488.0388
steliasny@aol.com
www.sainteliasny.com/ (http://www.sainteliasny.com/)
I see, I thought the Antiochian was OCA... Thanks for the heads up!

I'll leave it up to someone who knows what the original Greek is, but to praise or celebrate sounds about right to me. We celebrate and praise an awful lot of people in the Orthodox Church. There are an awful lot of people who have been magnified (or glorified) in the Lord aka all the saints, of whom the Theotokos is the first in honor.
Okay thanks, I thought so, but I wanted to make sure of this.

You parsed it incorrectly. "Christ God who has been incarnate of the Virgin in these last days" would be another way to rearrange the prepositional clauses.
I just typed it as it was written in the bulletin. The way you have it makes much more sense !

I would guess that it's referring to being "Of one essence with the Father," saying that Christ is eternally begotten of the Father without a change in essence between the two. Standard Nicene theology I think as with Consubstantitation it caught by suprise because I had heard both terms elsewhere :)

Every Sunday is in celebration of the Resurrection. The Troparia and Kontakia (two of the hymns that change weekly) are for the Resurrection. Following them there are troparia and kontakia celebrating whatever other feast, event, or saint is being commemorated that day.
Ohhh okay. I think i need the Orthodoxy for Dummies book

On the contrary, it's in recognition that God hears not only our own heartfelt cries, but the cries of all those who continue to pray for us even in heaven. If God would hear our cries, lowly sinners that we are, but ignored the cries of His saints who are with Him in paradise, what kind of God would He be? We are one Church, the Church Militant (those of us who struggle with the battles of this life) and the Church Triumphant (those who, having finished the race, receive the crown of incorruption and live with Christ in paradise). We all pray. There is no separation between the two. It is not "us vs. them" for we are one Church, one in the Body of Christ. This is why icons cover our churches. The Church Triumphant is praying right along side, or, rather, we are swept up into Heavenly worship with them in the Divine Liturgy.
I will mull this over some more before I make any comments :)

[Ragamuffins]

Generally in our hymns, we use the term Virgin or most commonly Theotokos to refer to His mother. As I understand it, the first Mary in the Troparion is Mary Magdelene. Another translation that we use in our parish which is a little clearer that the meeting was after the Resurrection (pardon the caps, C&P from our bulletin :) )

THE ANGELIC POWERS WERE AT THY TOMB;
THE GUARDS BECAME AS DEAD MEN.
MARY STOOD BY THY GRAVE, SEEKING THY MOST PURE BODY.
THOU DIDST CAPTURE HELL, NOT BEING TEMPTED BY IT. THOU DIDST COME TO THE VIRGIN, GRANTING LIFE.
O LORD WHO DIDST RISE FROM THE DEAD:
GLORY TO THEE.
I see so one referred Mary M. and the other reffered to Mary the Theotokos, but not necessarily at the same mometn in time. What I mean is, when it is said, thou didst come to the Virgin it was not meaning at the same time when Mary was at the tomb?

[Oblio]

Ohhh okay. I think i need the Orthodoxy for Dummies book


One of these days I expect to see one :shudder:. Given the innacuracies in the other books of the series re: Orthodoxy, I hope it is not soon forthcoming.

[choirfiend]

Yes, though the terms might be used in other places, they are likely to have different meanings in the Orthodox context. English may not offer the most precise word, so it may be confusing occasionally.

[Ragamuffins]

Aha! See, Troparion of the Resurrection???? There are 8 of them that change each Sunday according to the tones. Then follows the troparion of the day.
We use that translation as well.

"Thou did come to the Virgin granting life"

Yes, He came to the Virigin and was born of her...This is what the phrase refers to.
Gotcha, thanks, I think I understand that now :)

[choirfiend]

I see so one referred Mary M. and the other reffered to Mary the Theotokos, but not necessarily at the same mometn in time. What I mean is, when it is said, thou didst come to the Virgin it was not meaning at the same time when Mary was at the tomb?

You got it. The Incarnation and the Resurrection are both highly important, and they both get a mention here.

[Oblio]

I see so one referred Mary M. and the other reffered to Mary the Theotokos, but not necessarily at the same mometn in time. What I mean is, when it is said, thou didst come to the Virgin it was not meaning at the same time when Mary was at the tomb?


That is my understanding, but that is stricly based on my singing/reading of the hymn and Scripture (which after all cannot be contradicted). Hopefully someone else can affirm (or correct) my view as being what the Church believes.

[Oblio]

Back to the timelessness of our worship (as I ran across another hymn) here is an example of worshipping in the 'present' that is temporally in the past:

Kontakion of the Nativity

Today the Virgin gives birth to the Transcendent One,
And the earth offers a cave to the Unapproachable One!
Angels with shepherds glorify Him!
The wise men journey with a star!
Since for our sake the Eternal God was born as a Little Child!

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Just an FYI, as much as I love the Orthodox Church, it IS a jurisdictional nightmare! lol

In the U.S. alone you have the OCA, Antiochian, Greeks, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, ROCOR, and a WHOLE BUNCH of other jurisdictions that I am sure that I am forgetting. So please don't be afraid to go to a Church just because it is not OCA. There are tons of fine Orthodox Churches in the U.S. that do not subscribe to this jurisdiction. A pretty decent website to find an Orthodox Church near you is orthodoxyinamerica.com. While it is not comprehensive, it does include most jurisdictions and provides a pretty good listing of Churches in the U.S. & Canada.

Hope this helps!

In XC,

Maureen

P.S. While there IS a Polish Orthodox Church in Poland, I am not aware of a Polish Orthodox jurisdiction in the U.S. Also, St. Tikhon did establish a "Western Rite" of Orthodoxy that is a modified version of the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (what the RCC and Anglican Church had originally used for their masses) but I'm not aware of any Western Orthodox parishes in NY. You might want to check out http://www.westernorthodox.com/. God bless! :)

[icxn]

...Can anyone here define "magnify" for me?
Magnify is similar to glorify; and in case that scandalizes you...

Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel, I said, Thy house and the house of thy father shall pass before me for ever: but now the Lord says, That be far from me; for will only glorify them that glorify me, and he that sets me at nought shall be despised. (LXX 1 Kings 2:30)

During DL on Sunday I read this:
More honorable than the cherabim, and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim, Thou who without stain barest God the Word, and art truly the Theotokos, we magnify thee.

Even though I do not understand the Cherabim and Seraphim references, I will put that aside to focus on what is meant by "we magnify thee." When i think of magnify the first reference that comes to my mind is Luke 1:46 "And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,"

When she said it, I think she meant (from study anyway) to esteem highly, to extol, laud, celebrate the Lord.

But there are other words that are translated to magnify from the Greek that have other meanings, so I am wondering, what is meant by Orthodox who "magnify" Mary?
In the Greek, both Luke 1:46 and the troparion (poem/song) use the same word, μεγαλύνω, i.e. - like you said - extol, laud, glorify.

Another thing that got me wondering was:
Let us cry unto the Son, born of the father before the ages without transubstantiation, Christ God who hath been incarnate in these last days of the Virgin, without seed, shouting, “O thou who hath elevated our state, thou art holy, O Lord.”

The last days of the Virgin? Transubstantiation? WHat are these referring to in laymans terms please as they went right over my head.
Here's a better translation:
To the Son, begotten * without flux (change), of the Father, before the ages, * and who was lately made incarnate * of the Virgin without seed; * to Christ God now let us cry aloud: * You have exalted the horn of our strength. Only You are holy, O Lord.
icxn

[icxn]

Eothinon 1 Theotokos Tone 2
Thou didst rejoice with the disciples, Or Virgin Theotokos; for thou didst behold Christ rising from the tomb on the third day as He said, who appeared to them teaching and declaring supremem things, ...

Where did the writer get the idea that anyone saw Christ rising as it is not recorded in scripture that anyone knew He had risen until the women went to visit the tomb?
Mt. 28:1

Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.

The other Mary in Matthew is the Theotokos. The Mary in Mark is a different one, in as much as the account recorded in Mark is of a subsequent visit to the tomb (btw the visit mentioned in Luke is also a different one).

icxn

[eoe]

Ohhh okay. I think i need the Orthodoxy for Dummies book
You might consider this book (http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=INTR100)...
http://www.light-n-life.com/images/products/INTR100.jpg

You also mentioned that the Liturgy seemed to focus on the ressurrection. Someone mentioned that each Sunday was a "Little Easter (Pascha)". I thought that I would add that the other days are symbolic as well.


Monday is dedicated to the Archangels, angels and hosts of invisible powers.
Tuesday is dedicated to the memory of St John the baptist.
Wednesday is dedicated to the Theotokos and the passion of Christ. We remember the betrayal of Judas and we fast.
Thursday is dedicated to the apostles and all Church Fathers.
Friday is remembered as the day Christ was crucified and we fast.
Saturday is dedicated to the Martyrs ane the faithful that have reposed. We remember Lazarus who Christ raised on a Saturday and the Saturday that Christ spent in the grave. Saturday is the day for memorials.

[Ragamuffins]

Back to the timelessness of our worship (as I ran across another hymn) here is an example of worshipping in the 'present' that is temporally in the past:

Kontakion of the Nativity

Today the Virgin gives birth to the Transcendent One,
And the earth offers a cave to the Unapproachable One!
Angels with shepherds glorify Him!
The wise men journey with a star!
Since for our sake the Eternal God was born as a Little Child!
Yeah i saw something like that yesterday, I think. I had never heard of the whole cave thing, before too long ago as it is referenced as a stable (because Jesus was layed in a feeding trough) in the Bible, but heck they could have used caves foir stables for all I know about Jewish living conditions of animals ;)

[Oblio]

Yeah i saw something like that yesterday, I think. I had never heard of the whole cave thing, before too long ago as it is referenced as a stable (because Jesus was layed in a feeding trough) in the Bible, but heck they could have used caves foir stables for all I know about Jewish living conditions of animals ;)


IIRC, archaelogy has revealed evidence of caves being used in the area for stables. Like a blond haired, blue eyed Christ, the timber and wheat straw stable is impressing our culture on the Gospel.

[Ragamuffins]

Just an FYI, as much as I love the Orthodox Church, it IS a jurisdictional nightmare! lol

In the U.S. alone you have the OCA, Antiochian, Greeks, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, ROCOR, and a WHOLE BUNCH of other jurisdictions that I am sure that I am forgetting. So please don't be afraid to go to a Church just because it is not OCA. There are tons of fine Orthodox Churches in the U.S. that do not subscribe to this jurisdiction. A pretty decent website to find an Orthodox Church near you is orthodoxyinamerica.com. While it is not comprehensive, it does include most jurisdictions and provides a pretty good listing of Churches in the U.S. & Canada.

Hope this helps!

In XC,

Maureen

P.S. While there IS a Polish Orthodox Church in Poland, I am not aware of a Polish Orthodox jurisdiction in the U.S. Also, St. Tikhon did establish a "Western Rite" of Orthodoxy that is a modified version of the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (what the RCC and Anglican Church had originally used for their masses) but I'm not aware of any Western Orthodox parishes in NY. You might want to check out http://www.westernorthodox.com/. God bless! :)
The reason I was trying to stick with OCa is that I heard (not sure if this is correct or not) that the Macedonian Orthodox Church that is down the street from the St Elias Antiochian Church are not in communion with each other. I have no idea why, but I am trying to stay away from things that are contrary to what i am learning. There is a Ukranian Catholic Church that looks like an Orthodox church and even advertises a Divine Liturgy, but I understand they are in leagues with the RCC, so...

Thanks for helping me out here :)

[Oblio]

http://ocafs.oca.org/GetImageDetail.asp?IP=nativity%2F1225nativity08%2Ejpg

See how many Scriptural references you can find :)

[Ragamuffins]

Magnify is similar to glorify; and in case that scandalizes you...

Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel, I said, Thy house and the house of thy father shall pass before me for ever: but now the Lord says, That be far from me; for will only glorify them that glorify me, and he that sets me at nought shall be despised. (LXX 1 Kings 2:30)
What verse is that again? In my Bible it says:
1 Kings 2:30 So Benaiah came to the tent of the LORD and said to him, "The king commands, 'Come out.'" But he said, "No, I will die here." Then Benaiah brought the king word again, saying, "Thus said Joab, and thus he answered me."

If you mean to say that you glorify the Theotokos in the manner that you glorify the Lord, then it would be a scandal, wouldn't it?

[eoe]

The reason I was trying to stick with OCa is that I heard (not sure if this is correct or not) that the Macedonian Orthodox Church that is down the street from the St Elias Antiochian Church are not in communion with each other. I have no idea why, but I am trying to stay away from things that are contrary to what i am learning. There is a Ukranian Catholic Church that looks like an Orthodox church and even advertises a Divine Liturgy, but I understand they are in leagues with the RCC, so...
This is confusing. I do not blame you. Here is more info that might help.

Click me (http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions/)

While this is not a complete list - anything in that list is safe. Bulgarians are A-OK.
Have a look through those and see what you like - do not be afraid of any of those jurisdictions.

[Oblio]

1 Sa 2:30 in the Masoretic OT

[Oblio]

BTW, here is a online Septuagint (http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/), not the greatest translation, but until we get a proper EO translation it is a start.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

BTW, here is a online Septuagint (http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/), not the greatest translation, but until we get a proper EO translation it is a start.

Thank you!!!!!!!! :clap:

[Ragamuffins]

Mt. 28:1

Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.

The other Mary in Matthew is the Theotokos. The Mary in Mark is a different one, in as much as the account recorded in Mark is of a subsequent visit to the tomb (btw the visit mentioned in Luke is also a different one).

icxn
Honestly, do you think that Matthew would have recorded "the other Mary" when referencing the Lord's mother? The Orthodox Bible references Matthew 27:56, as the refernce point for this "other" Mary, which happens in that verse to be the mother of James. You can argue with them if you like.

In the account of Matthew the tomb is open Mary M is told to run and tell the apostles that He is risen.
In Mark the story is told with the addition of Salome, in which the ladies are wondering who will roll the stone away (if it is subsequent why would they worry about the stone?).
In Luke They meaning the people who buried Jesus and certain other women as the Bible says came to the tomb but found that the stone had been rolled away. They were perplexed not to find the Lord so this could not have been a later visit either.
In John Mary M alone goes to the tomb, and found that the stone had been rolled away and she ran and told Simon Peter and John about it. So this again could not have been a later event.

In none of these cases with the possible exception of Luke (certain women) we do not have any account of Mary being there.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

The reason I was trying to stick with OCa is that I heard (not sure if this is correct or not) that the Macedonian Orthodox Church that is down the street from the St Elias Antiochian Church are not in communion with each other. I have no idea why, but I am trying to stay away from things that are contrary to what i am learning. There is a Ukranian Catholic Church that looks like an Orthodox church and even advertises a Divine Liturgy, but I understand they are in leagues with the RCC, so...

Thanks for helping me out here :)

Yeah, it can be confusing. Just to clarify, the OCA and the Antiochian Churches are two seperate jurisdictions. While they are in talks of unificaiton, and they are in communion with one antoher, they are seperate jurisdictions. :)

And you are correct, the Ukrainian Catholic Church is NOT the same as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. :)

God bless,

Maureen

[Ragamuffins]

IIRC, archaelogy has revealed evidence of caves being used in the area for stables. Like a blond haired, blue eyed Christ, the timber and wheat straw stable is impressing our culture on the Gospel.
Jesus was as much a blonde haired blue eyed white boy as He was long haired Greek I am afraid ;) I get your point though.

Thanks for the info on the caves, I had no idea. it does make sense at is more defensible for keeping wild animals away, but a nightmare trying to get the beats in there just the same LOL

[Ragamuffins]

http://ocafs.oca.org/GetImageDetail.asp?IP=nativity%2F1225nativity08%2Ejpg

See how many Scriptural references you can find
Hey look at that...

Okay let me see...
Jesus is in the food trough. And it sure looks as if Mary is His mother that is two (proof positive that it wasn't the cow that gave birth to Him ;) ), I can never tell the difference between the wise men and the kings so i will say either of them is there, that is three, the rest I dunno, show me :)

[Oblio]

Is 1:3 :)

[Ragamuffins]

This is confusing. I do not blame you. Here is more info that might help.

Click me (http://www.scoba.us/jurisdictions/)

While this is not a complete list - anything in that list is safe. Bulgarians are A-OK.
Have a look through those and see what you like - do not be afraid of any of those jurisdictions.
Thanks for that EOE. Funny how the Bulgarians are the only ones without a website eh?

I wanted to try and get to a church here that had liturgy in English so I could better understand what is being said (not that english has been all that helpful so far ;) ). The Greek church and the Russian church from what I understand are most in those languages, but I am going to try the Bulgarian one and see if that is in English. If not, i dunno if i can attend.

[Ragamuffins]

You might consider this book (http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=INTR100)...
I have been finding that the books produce questions and the questions either produce fruit or make me nuts :) I will lok to see if this is available nearby or perhaps at one of the local churches. Thanks for the info, and for the beolow info, I am going to save this part for sure :)

You also mentioned that the Liturgy seemed to focus on the ressurrection. Someone mentioned that each Sunday was a "Little Easter (Pascha)". I thought that I would add that the other days are symbolic as well.



Monday is dedicated to the Archangels, angels and hosts of invisible powers.
Tuesday is dedicated to the memory of St John the baptist.
Wednesday is dedicated to the Theotokos and the passion of Christ. We remember the betrayal of Judas and we fast.
Thursday is dedicated to the apostles and all Church Fathers.
Friday is remembered as the day Christ was crucified and we fast.
Saturday is dedicated to the Martyrs ane the faithful that have reposed. We remember Lazarus who Christ raised on a Saturday and the Saturday that Christ spent in the grave. Saturday is the day for memorials.

[Ragamuffins]

Is 1:3 :)
Oh how good is that!!! Clever iconographer, very clever!

[Oblio]

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
(Mat 1:19)

Bottom left, the old man is iconic of satan, tempting Joseph (who is despairing) to believe the worst about Mary.

[Ragamuffins]

BTW, here is a online Septuagint (http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/), not the greatest translation, but until we get a proper EO translation it is a start.
I thought, we were going to have one this past summer but now I hear 2006 or 2007. I have been looking forward to this by the way.

[Oblio]

Oh how good is that!!! Clever iconographer, very clever!


Actually, there are canons concerning how and what may be written in an Icon. We see them as Theology in color, the very word of God, to safeguard that word, strict rules are followed.

[Ragamuffins]

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
(Mat 1:19)

Bottom left, the old man is iconic of satan, tempting Joseph (who is despairing) to believe the worst about Mary.
Okay I see that one, who is the man walking with the teenager with the staff?

[Oblio]

I thought, we were going to have one this past summer but now I hear 2006 or 2007. I have been looking forward to this by the way.


If it were fast or on schedule, we would know it to be un-Orthodox ;)

[Ragamuffins]

Actually, there are canons concerning how and what may be written in an Icon. We see them as Theology in color, the very word of God, to safeguard that word, strict rules are followed.
Well I think that this is evidence that Orthodox icons are very Biblical in nature, and am pleastantly suprised at the OT reference that i never would have thoguht of. I like it. :)

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Canon Law 2376:19 "And verily I say unto you, if thou shall produce any theological matter on time, or do anything on time, let it be known that it is heretical and not to be trusted." ;)

[Ragamuffins]

If it were fast or on schedule, we would know it to be un-Orthodox ;)
Who is actually doing the translation? I thought there was a website that gave their progress at one point.

I had no idea why the Orthodox Study Bible that i have included the Psalms (as opposed to another book of the Bible) until this past weekend. it went right over my head that they were part of the liturgy. I just assumed it was liek the protestants do it with psalms and proverbs as a rimer for the OT or the newbie Christian.

[Ragamuffins]

Canon Law 2376:19 "And verily I say unto you, if thou shall produce any theological matter on time, or do anything on time, let it be known that it is heretical and not to be trusted." ;)
By the way just as a side note, is there such a thing as canon law in the Orthodox church and is it available online in English?

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Well I think that this is evidence that Orthodox icons are very Biblical in nature, and am pleastantly suprised at the OT reference that i never would have thoguht of. I like it. :)

We may be a Church of the New Testament, but we never forget about the OT. ;)

[Oblio]

Okay I see that one, who is the man walking with the teenager with the staff?


There are some subtleties going on here re: Lk 2:7-18 et. al., and to be truthful, I cannot recall the details, let me check Llossky/Ouspensky (The Meaning of Icons) when I get home.

[Oblio]

Canon Law 2376:19 "And verily I say unto you, if thou shall produce any theological matter on time, or do anything on time, let it be known that it is heretical and not to be trusted." ;)

lol

[choirfiend]

There are the canon laws....They are things that aren't doctrine, but were important enough to make rules about. Some of them are rather timeless, and some of them are very specific and dated. Dont know if all of them are online somewhere...But they're not things that the average lay person concerns themselves about. Mostly business for clergy as they are the ones who follow them (they are for things like writing icons or the order of a service...Not usually about day to day life).

[icxn]

Honestly, do you think that Matthew would have recorded "the other Mary" when referencing the Lord's mother? The Orthodox Bible references Matthew 27:56, as the refernce point for this "other" Mary, which happens in that verse to be the mother of James. You can argue with them if you like.

In the account of Matthew the tomb is open Mary M is told to run and tell the apostles that He is risen.
In Mark the story is told with the addition of Salome, in which the ladies are wondering who will roll the stone away (if it is subsequent why would they worry about the stone?).
In Luke They meaning the people who buried Jesus and certain other women as the Bible says came to the tomb but found that the stone had been rolled away. They were perplexed not to find the Lord so this could not have been a later visit either.
In John Mary M alone goes to the tomb, and found that the stone had been rolled away and she ran and told Simon Peter and John about it. So this again could not have been a later event.

In none of these cases with the possible exception of Luke (certain women) we do not have any account of Mary being there.
Here's a note translation of St. John Chrysostom's explanation:

1st visit (Matthew)
Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene arrive at the tomb and see an (one) angel that tells them about the resurrection. The two women returning home find the Lord on the way. Afterwards they inform the apostles of the resurrection but they do not believe. This visit took place at about midnight. In the Greek text it says Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, which translates as night after Saturday.

2nd visit (Luke)
Mary Magdalene along with Joanna and another Mary (also some men) visit to the tomb with spices. Two angels appear to them rebuking them for not believing in the resurrection. Returning home they inform the apostles for a second time. The time which this visit took place is said to be, ὄρθρου βαθέως , which literally means deep morning. Also, there was no earthquake this time and the stone was already rolled away as opposed to the first visit. Notice that the angles (two this time) speak harshly to the women. Why? because they were already informed (1st visit) and did not believe. Hence, this is a different visit that took place after the one above.

3rd visit (John)
Mary Magdalene visits the tomb for the third time. She then informs Peter and John privately. Notice that to draw their attention does not speak of resurrection (they did not believe yet), and she wanted to convince them to visit the tomb, so she said that some men took the body from the tomb. The time given in this account is, πρωῒ σκοτίας ἔτι οὔσης, which translates as morning but still dark. Again St. John Chrysostom goes on to explain the timing of this visit and why is to be placed after the account of St. Luke. Also the fact that the stone was already rolled is another indication that this visit followed the one mentioned in Matthew.

4th visit (John)
The two apostles visit the tomb (Mary probably following them). The apostle leave and Mary stays there crying. Finally she sees two angels, then the Lord appears and you know the rest.

5th visit (Mark)
This visit took place Sunday morning after the sun had risen, in Greek, λίαν πρωῒ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων ἔρχονται ἐπὶ τὸ μνημεῖον ἀνατείλαντος τοῦ ἡλίου. So there is no doubt that this was the last visit. Here we have Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James and Salome. They find the tomb opened and an angel informs them of the resurrection. Obviously, the angel was there for the sake of the other two women (Mary Magdalene had already believed). He also speaks calmly as opposed to the angels in Luke.


Source: St. John Chrysostom, Patrologia Graeca (J. P. Migne) Vol. 59 pg.636-644, IN MULIERS QUAE; UNGUENTA ATTULERUNT : ET QUOD NULLA DIVERSITAS VEL PUGNA REPERIATUR INTER EVANGELISTAS CIRCA RESURRECTIONEM DOMINI NOSTRI JESU CHRISTI

[choirfiend]

nm

[Mary of Bethany]

Bud,

if you can't find the Coniaris book, I have a copy I would be glad to send to you. You can pm me if you want it.

Mary

[choirfiend]

Okay I see that one, who is the man walking with the teenager with the staff?

Those are the shepherds.

[Ragamuffins]

Here's a note translation of St. John Chrysostom's explanation:

1st visit (Matthew)
Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene arrive at the tomb and see an (one) angel that tells them about the resurrection. The two women returning home find the Lord on the way. Afterwards they inform the apostles of the resurrection but they do not believe. This visit took place at about midnight. In the Greek text it says Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, which translates as night after Saturday.

2nd visit (Luke)
Mary Magdalene along with Joanna and another Mary (also some men) visit to the tomb with spices. Two angels appear to them rebuking them for not believing in the resurrection. Returning home they inform the apostles for a second time. The time which this visit took place is said to be, ὄρθρου βαθέως , which literally means deep morning. Also, there was no earthquake this time and the stone was already rolled away as opposed to the first visit. Notice that the angles (two this time) speak harshly to the women. Why? because they were already informed (1st visit) and did not believe. Hence, this is a different visit that took place after the one above.

3rd visit (John)
Mary Magdalene visits the tomb for the third time. She then informs Peter and John privately. Notice that to draw their attention does not speak of resurrection (they did not believe yet), and she wanted to convince them to visit the tomb, so she said that some men took the body from the tomb. The time given in this account is, πρωῒ σκοτίας ἔτι οὔσης, which translates as morning but still dark. Again St. John Chrysostom goes on to explain the timing of this visit and why is to be placed after the account of St. Luke. Also the fact that the stone was already rolled is another indication that this visit followed the one mentioned in Matthew.

4th visit (John)
The two apostles visit the tomb (Mary probably following them). The apostle leave and Mary stays there crying. Finally she sees two angels, then the Lord appears and you know the rest.

5th visit (Mark)
This visit took place Sunday morning after the sun had risen, in Greek, λίαν πρωῒ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων ἔρχονται ἐπὶ τὸ μνημεῖον ἀνατείλαντος τοῦ ἡλίου. So there is no doubt that this was the last visit. Here we have Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James and Salome. They find the tomb opened and an angel informs them of the resurrection. Obviously, the angel was there for the sake of the other two women (Mary Magdalene had already believed). He also speaks calmly as opposed to the angels in Luke.


Source: St. John Chrysostom, Patrologia Graeca (J. P. Migne) Vol. 59 pg.636-644, IN MULIERS QUAE; UNGUENTA ATTULERUNT : ET QUOD NULLA DIVERSITAS VEL PUGNA REPERIATUR INTER EVANGELISTAS CIRCA RESURRECTIONEM DOMINI NOSTRI JESU CHRISTI
Thank you for this by teh way i never read this and am willing to learn all I can.

I find it odd that the Orthodox men and I assume women that created the Orthodox study Bible didn't see it this way. I understand that no man is an island and no man is infallable in the church so perhaps the translators and assemblers either disagreed or were unaware of his notes on the subject, but from my research into this matter, it seems that the Mary in Matthew is in fact as the others say, Mary the mother of James(27:56), not the Mother of God as it makes no contextual sense to call her "the other" Mary, when she is and was the central Mary and not just another Mary. See what I am saying? Perhaps He did not consider this or He did not consider 27:56 where precident was set for the other Mary.

As to the rest of the rest of what St John said I will research it.

[Ragamuffins]

Bud,

if you can't find the Coniaris book, I have a copy I would be glad to send to you. You can pm me if you want it.

Mary
I will look and see if I can find it for sure and if i cannot I will take you up on that :)

Those are the shepherds.
Oh, yeah you would think the crooked staff would have been a dead give away. Head slap.... LOL

[Ragamuffins]

Here is the text of my blog, in case anyone has advice on the things that bothered me yesterday.

Went to Orthos and Divine Liturgy at St Elias alone yesterday. I arrived at the church roughly ten minutes before Orthos began and was suprised that there was nobody there witht he exception of whoever was working that morning. I knew one of the readers, or should I say one of the readers knows my wife, as they are in the same profession (Occupational Therapy), and professional Organization (NYSOTA). She of course said hi, but not one single person the whole two and a half hours I was there tried to talk to me or engage me in any way, with the exception of the handshaking ceremony (the Lord is in our midst).

I felt really alone there. I almost left after Orthos, as I was really uncomfortable, but I decided to stick it out. At one point, the lonliest point, was when people were coming back from recieving Christ with handfuls of bread, no one offered me any. I started to tear up. I don't know why, I just felt like I was invisible.

Did I make a mistake leaving my family and friends behind in the First Baptist? My wife went to First Baptist and I do believe she is going to continue there while I go to wherever I go. She said everyone asked about me, and missed me to which I replied, "Funny, the phone hasn't rung for me since I left."

I listened to Ravi Z on my way into church and enjoyed his sermon on the light and receiving the light of God. The Post Communion sermon by Father Baz was ... "We have seen the true light..."

If it is true, that the Orthodox church is the one true church, then people like Ravi Z, must be connected to that church in some way for the messages to be this close in content.

I dunno the divine Liturgy itself was full of things I did not understand again, but what else is new right?

[icxn]

Thank you for this by teh way i never read this and am willing to learn all I can.

I find it odd that the Orthodox men and I assume women that created the Orthodox study Bible didn't see it this way.
The writings of the Church Fathers are so many that it is no surprise that the OSB people missed it, especially since the above text hasn't been translated into English.

I understand that no man is an island and no man is infallable in the church so perhaps the translators and assemblers either disagreed or were unaware of his notes on the subject, but from my research into this matter, it seems that the Mary in Matthew is in fact as the others say, Mary the mother of James(27:56), not the Mother of God as it makes no contextual sense to call her "the other" Mary, when she is and was the central Mary and not just another Mary. See what I am saying? Perhaps He did not consider this or He did not consider 27:56 where precident was set for the other Mary.
One explanation that makes sense to me is that at the writing of the Gospels the Theotokos was still alive and the Evangelist did not want to expose her, given the fury of the Jews against the Christians. If you recall they even wanted to kill Lazarus so as to wipe out any evidence concerning Christ. Btw, Lazarus fled to Cyprus and became the first Bishop of Kition. His tomb/coffin (second one) has been preserved even to this day.

icxn

[choirfiend]

Cheer up, Raga! Not every parish offers antidoron to everyone...and most people would not hand it to a complete stranger. Perhaps revealing yourself as an inquirer there or hanging around for coffee hour would make a difference. I, for one, dont notice every visitor to the parish b/c how am I to know if they're a stranger or the cousin of that parishioner they're standing next to? Never fear, we're nice people, though congregations will be more or less welcoming, for sure. I would suggest giving up a little bit more of that comfort level and talking to someone next time:)

[Ragamuffins]

The writings of the Church Fathers are so many that it is no surprise that the OSB people missed it, especially since the above text hasn't been translated into English.
Well it is nop wonder then :) I imagine there will be an English translation of St Johns note made into a study Bible someday as well then :)

One explanation that makes sense to me is that at the writing of the Gospels the Theotokos was still alive and the Evangelist did not want to expose her, given the fury of the Jews against the Christians.
That is a possibilty I suppose but saying she was there would not have caused hewr anymore harm than the fact that she was in the room where Jesus appeared would it? I dunno, she is very much in the open in Acts, so I cannot say that i agree totally with this allthough it is not entirely unbelieveable.

If you recall they even wanted to kill Lazarus so as to wipe out any evidence concerning Christ. Btw, Lazarus fled to Cyprus and became the first Bishop of Kition. His tomb/coffin (second one) has been preserved even to this day.

icxn
Interesting. Yes I do know that they wanted to wipe out what Christ did with lazarus, but that was while Jesus was still alive was it not?

very good conversation, though I am learning much :)

[Oblio]

I think Ravi is going to become Orthodox one day :)

We try to give Prosphora to all visitors, but not all parishes do. Some of us can also IMO do a better job at welcoming visitors without comprimising the purpose of the Divine services.

[choirfiend]

Yea, we have greeters in the doorway who hand out a bulletin and greet anyone they dont know, show them a place to sit or stand, and set them up with a parishioner to answer a question or two if they want it during the service. But then, my priest was the head of the dept. of evangelism for a while and we have a parish that is small and averages 100-125 people a week, so it's easier to know everyone. In a bigger parish, this won't be possible. It will be different everywhere.

[Ragamuffins]

Cheer up, Raga! Not every parish offers antidoron to everyone...and most people would not hand it to a complete stranger. Perhaps revealing yourself as an inquirer there or hanging around for coffee hour would make a difference. I, for one, dont notice every visitor to the parish b/c how am I to know if they're a stranger or the cousin of that parishioner they're standing next to? Never fear, we're nice people, though congregations will be more or less welcoming, for sure. I would suggest giving up a little bit more of that comfort level and talking to someone next time:)
The first time I was with my wife, and I felt a little better. Since I made the decision for her not to follow me to church anymore, I had better get used to being alone. She only came with me to begin with because I felt odd going alone. When i found out that she didn't like it as much as i did, i suggested that she choose her own place to go to.

Anyway the people do seem friendly enough to each other and I am sure in time I will make friends, but I was just trying to contrast the only church that i ever knew to this one. made me homesick I guess is the best way to put it. Made me miss the friends i left behind, or the ones that I thought were friends anyway.

That part bothers me the most. I made an effort to tell them I loved them all and wanted to remain friends and with the only exception of one, it has been dreadful quiet. In a way it validates my move away, from a personal standpoint but on the other hand it sure makes one think twice about relationships in church settings. I cried and prayed with a great deal of these people.

I could never go back. I am reminded of what Oliver Wendell Holmes said: "Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions." How could I ever get back to what seems like so far away what i used to believe now that the possibilites of Orthodoxy have destroyed much of what I thought I knew to be true? What i knew would be comapared to a BB pellet in a boxcar now.

[Oblio]

Our parish is so small that often we are so busy, reading, singing, preparing etc. that sometimes a visitor gets lost in the shuffle. This is something we as a parish need to improve on.

[Ragamuffins]

I think Ravi is going to become Orthodox one day :)
I think so as well. I truly do.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Coffee hour is really the place to meet people in the Church. During service, all focus is on the service, and sometimes it is hard to pick out who the "visitors" are vs. "relatives with parishoners."

Give it time. There is a lot to take in, a lot to try to understand.

When you start to feel overwhelmed during the service, just breathe, take it slow, and you'll be alright.

Remember, you're stepping waaaaay out of your comfort zone so it's going to feel strange at first. Take your time and be patient, and it will come to you.

God bless,

Maureen

[Oblio]

What i knew would be comapared to a BB pellet in a boxcar now.


That's begging to go in a sig block :)

[Oblio]

During service, all focus is on the service, and sometimes it is hard to pick out who the "visitors" are vs. "relatives with parishoners."


An excellent point, and as a Reader/greeter I can affirm it (often I am not in the Narthex when someone comes in and I notice them later). One thing to remember is that the Liturgy (and the temple itself) is not a place for casual socialization. While no excuse for rudeness or lack of a polite introduction and invitation to visit afterwards, we sometimes do swing to far the other way.

[Ragamuffins]

Remember, you're stepping waaaaay out of your comfort zone so it's going to feel strange at first. Take your time and be patient, and it will come to you.
Amen to that :) Will do!

[Ragamuffins]

Okay. A reader came in and kissed the icon which i did as well, and then he crossed himself numerous times (lost count), and then he bowed with his hand touching the floor and did it all again. What was that? It looked like quick draw McGraw doing the stations of the cross.

Two weeks ago Father baz had a gold robe on, and after Orthos he added a cape that was on a chair behind the altar. This week he had on a salmon colored robe and cape.

Any significance top the robe color and the addition of the cape at DL? Thanks again folks, I meant to bring this up earlier, but you know how it is.

[icxn]

Well it is nop wonder then :) I imagine there will be an English translation of St Johns note made into a study Bible someday as well then :)
Hehe... and come up with a Study Bible that is 10000 pages loooong!! Btw only St. John Chrysostom's writings can fill 26 volumes of 1000 page each. Now if we were to also consider the commentaries of other Church Fathers - St. Gregory the Great for example has a commentary on Job that fills 2 volumes, that is almost 1 million words - then the amount of work that needs to be done is HUGE. I have a commentary on the Psalms, which quotes from a dozen Church Fathers and it similarly spans 3 volumes (thicker than the Bible).

Anyway, you get the picture:

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (Jn. 21:25)

[Oblio]

While this won't apply to you Raga (you know that is going to become your new name ;) ) some are probably afraid the sweet little old woman that walked in the door is not an ex SBC choir leader but a Babuska with the cane of death to wack you over the head with if you disturb the Liturgy by speaking to her :D

[choirfiend]

Okay. A reader came in and kissed the icon which i did as well, and then he crossed himself numerous times (lost count), and then he bowed with his hand touching the floor and did it all again. What was that? It looked like quick draw McGraw doing the stations of the cross.

Two weeks ago Father baz had a gold robe on, and after Orthos he added a cape that was on a chair behind the altar. This week he had on a salmon colored robe and cape.

Any significance top the robe color and the addition of the cape at DL? Thanks again folks, I meant to bring this up earlier, but you know how it is.

People have individual means of expressing piety. Some people cross themselves once and kiss the icon, some people cross themselves three times and kiss the icon, some people cross themselves twice, kiss the icon, and cross themselves again. I imagine some people may even cross themselves three times, kiss the icon, and cross themselves three times again. The bow to the floor is called a (lesser) metania (meh-tan-EE-ah) which means reverence and is a sort of prostration, a bowing down while standing. Some people do it, some don't.

It would seem that I just posted this link!! I'll do it again--do look through the books, they do deal with some very lovely practical information for someone who has never seen vestments and don't know what they mean:)
http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=48

The basic priestly wear is the alb (or baptismal robe as called by the link) and he also wears the epitrachelion (which of these are you calling a robe?) The phelonion is the cape.

There are meanings to the liturgical colors. Here's an excerpt from a longer work:
You could assign meanings to the different colors: white for the pure light of God’s energy; green, the color of life, for the Holy Spirit and the wood of the cross; purple for the suffering of Christ; deep red for the blood on the Cross, blood of the martyrs; blue for the Mother of God; and gold for the richness of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and bright red for the fiery flame of the Spiritual Host. Black is traditionally the color of death and mourning in the West, but in the far East white is the color of death and mourning. In Russia, red is the color of beauty, brightness and joy. None of this is written down in the rules, and different colors obviously have different meanings for different peoples.

It is therefore easier to describe various customs than it is to say what are ‘proper’ and ‘improper’ colors to use. Below, we give the most common uses for colors in the Orthodox Church, especially in the Russian (Moscow) and Carpatho-Russian, Ukrainian, or ‘Little Russian’ tradition.



Here is what the Russian Church’s Nastol’naya Kniga Sviashchenno-sluzhitelia says about colors:

The most important Feasts of the Orthodox Church and the sacred events for which specific colors of vestments have been established, can be united into six basic groups.


The group of feasts and days commemorating Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Prophets, the Apostles and the Holy Hierarchs. Vestment color: Gold (yellow) of all shades.
The group of feasts and days commemorating the Most Holy Mother of God, the Bodiless Powers and Virgins. Vestment color: Light blue and white.
The group of feasts and days commemorating the Cross of Our Lord. Vestment color: Purple or dark red.
The group of feasts and days commemorating martyrs. Vestment color: Red. [On Great and Holy Thursday, dark red vestments are worn, even though the church is still covered with black and the Holy (Altar) Table is covered with a white cloth.]
The group of feasts and days commemorating monastic saints, ascetics and fools for Christ. Vestment color: Green. The Entrance of Our Lord into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday), Holy Trinity Day (Pentecost) and Holy Spirit Day (Monday after Pentecost) are, as a rule, celebrated in green vestments of all shades.
During the Lenten periods, the vestment colors are: Dark blue, purple, dark green, dark red and black. This last color is used essentially for the days of Great Lent. During the first week of that Lent and on the weekdays of the following weeks, the vestment color is black. On Sundays and Feast days of this period, the vestments are of a dark color with gold or colored ornaments. Funerals, as a rule, are done in white vestments.

[choirfiend]

I love this picture of Holy Friday. You should see churches on Pascha!!!

[Oblio]

As an aside to an earlier subtopic:

Dummies and Idiots (http://www.directionstoorthodoxy.org/mod/news/view.php?article_id=6369)

[Ragamuffins]

Hehe... and come up with a Study Bible that is 10000 pages loooong!! Btw only St. John Chrysostom's writings can fill 26 volumes of 1000 page each. Now if we were to also consider the commentaries of other Church Fathers - St. Gregory the Great for example has a commentary on Job that fills 2 volumes, that is almost 1 million words - then the amount of work that needs to be done is HUGE. I have a commentary on the Psalms, which quotes from a dozen Church Fathers and it similarly spans 3 volumes (thicker than the Bible).

Anyway, you get the picture:

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (Jn. 21:25)
Yeah i am beginning to get the idea :)

[Ragamuffins]

While this won't apply to you Raga (you know that is going to become your new name ;) )
As long as you don't call me muffins ;)

[Oblio]

I am guessing Muffy is out too ?

[Ragamuffins]

People have individual means of expressing piety. Some people cross themselves once and kiss the icon, some people cross themselves three times and kiss the icon, some people cross themselves twice, kiss the icon, and cross themselves again. I imagine some people may even cross themselves three times, kiss the icon, and cross themselves three times again. The bow to the floor is called a (lesser) metania (meh-tan-EE-ah) which means reverence and is a sort of prostration, a bowing down while standing. Some people do it, some don't.
I did notice because it was different than anyone else that he was the only one to do this. Also a lady who was sitting up front tried to kiss the cup as it went by, and she also touched the Gospel as it went by. She seemed to be very "into' the procedings, even had her head covered for awhile, and I thought i saw her raise her hands at some point.

The basic priestly wear is the alb (or baptismal robe as called by the link) and he also wears the epitrachelion (which of these are you calling a robe?) The phelonion is the cape.

The outer robe i guess is what I meant. I did not see what he had under that ;)

Great info on the colors, i appreciate that.

Is there a reason that the doors are shut (or curtain is closed) when the Priest is in with the host, before he comes out?

[Ragamuffins]

I am guessing Muffy is out too ?
You is a good guesser ;)

[Ragamuffins]

I love this picture of Holy Friday. You should see churches on Pascha!!!
That sure is pretty. Wow.

[Oblio]

Divine Liturgy (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/liturgy_e.htm) explained, excerpt from

The Divine Services
Archipriest Seraphim Slobodskoy

[Oblio]

The Great Entry symbolizes the solemn passing of Jesus Christ to His voluntary suffering and death by crucifixion. The priest places the holy chalice and the bread representing the Body of Christ on the Holy Table as if in the grave. The Royal Doors are closed as if they were the doors of the Lord’s tomb. The curtain is drawn as if it were the guard stationed before the Sepulcher.

[choirfiend]

That sure is pretty. Wow.

There's no moment like the darkened church on Holy Friday with the icon of the crucified Christ standing before you in the middle of the church after 40 or so days of solemn evening services filled with prayers of repentence. That joyful sorrow that we talk about sure is a heavy joy on that evening.

That's at St. Vladimir's Seminary, the one in your state:)

[gzt]

Few people come to Orthros, even in a large parish. The services are long and there's no reason for anybody not preparing the service to be there early, so you especially should not expect to find anybody there 10 minutes before the beginning. If you visit a church, the assumption is that you're there to pray and greetings get in the way of prayer. If you get there well before the liturgy, they probably would not have greeters out to hand you a bulletin and say hello as you come in. Churches usually make it a point to have somebody by the door, but they usually aren't there until the liturgy.

Two weeks ago we were not in the fast yet. Gold is the usual color. Purple is the color for the fast. If you were there the previous week, he may have worn blue because, though it was the fast, it was a feast of the Theotokos.

Your comments do make me wonder about how we can, in general, make lonely visitors feel more welcome. What sort of acknowledgement are you looking for? A simple greeting? Somebody to stand next to you and answer questions about what's going on?

[RobNJ]

That's at St. Vladimir's Seminary, the one in your state:)


Unfortunately fo Raga;) it's quite a schlepp, from where he is.

Fortunately for me, it's probably 45 minutes, or less from here:cool:

[choirfiend]

Yup, but it's closer than many things...It's 4.5 hours from me, but I have a different sense when it comes to travel times, having become accustomed to a 19-22hour trip from the midwest to the east coast at least once a year to visit family. Anything 9 hours or under is pretty short, and 15 hours or under is doable in one day with 2 drivers. Nowadays, a 22 hour trip would be ok straight through if we had 4 drivers...

[Ragamuffins]

The Great Entry symbolizes the solemn passing of Jesus Christ to His voluntary suffering and death by crucifixion. The priest places the holy chalice and the bread representing the Body of Christ on the Holy Table as if in the grave. The Royal Doors are closed as if they were the doors of the Lord’s tomb. The curtain is drawn as if it were the guard stationed before the Sepulcher.
Dat aint Bibical. Get a stone in there then... Just kiddin'

that is pretty cool, I like the idea very much. :)

[Ragamuffins]

Your comments do make me wonder about how we can, in general, make lonely visitors feel more welcome.
that would be hard to tell as most lonely people do not have it tatooed on their forehead like I do ;) Just kidding I appreciate the chance to help in this matter.

What sort of acknowledgement are you looking for?
Hi, I am [insert name here], after the service join [insert names of friends or family] for coffee. Hey are you new here? Welcome. ANything would have been okay. If people get wierded out, then so be it, but ignoring people is not really a great option.

A simple greeting?
Believe it or not that goes a long way. Just smiling and saying, welcome to the church, is a great thing. When i was a greeter at FB we gave smiles to everyone and if they were new, or we didn't know them we made ourselves available for questions or whatever after services.

Somebody to stand next to you and answer questions about what's going on?
No, but perhaps someone who would open up the liturgy book to the right page for you and perhaps offer to direct you in when to stand up or sit down. Hey are you knew here? Want some help figuring things out? If they say no, no problem, but they won't ask, believe me.

It would have helped me that is for sure.

[Ragamuffins]

Yup, but it's closer than many things...It's 4.5 hours from me, but I have a different sense when it comes to travel times, having become accustomed to a 19-22hour trip from the midwest to the east coast at least once a year to visit family. Anything 9 hours or under is pretty short, and 15 hours or under is doable in one day with 2 drivers. Nowadays, a 22 hour trip would be ok straight through if we had 4 drivers...
It may be worth a trip someday but i cannot think of getting up two minutes after I go to bed to drive to DL :)

[Oblio]

Dat aint Bibical. Get a stone in there then... Just kiddin'

that is pretty cool, I like the idea very much. :)


Unfortunately there was not much more insight into other times. I do know that the same document outlines similar times during Vespers. IIRC, the doors are closed after the reading of Psalm 104 (103) to symbolize the fall and our separation from God. They are later opened at the singing of O Gladsome Light, the coming of Christ.

[choirfiend]

I have a great thing that dicusses Vespers, and tells the significance of some of the liturgical motion, but I think Ive posted it recently...Its from Elder Cleopas.

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Ragamuffins,

I found this website on the Bulgarian Orthodox Diocese.
http://www.bulgariandiocese.org/

Hope this helps!

In XC,

Maureen

[eoe]

Believe it or not that goes a long way. Just smiling and saying, welcome to the church, is a great thing.
I totally agree. One thing I have found - people don't show up on time at the parish I attend. The times that I have been running a little later than normal have been the times that people have greeted me. The fact that you are going to orthros is a big reason why you are not getting the warm greeting. The greeter types have not gotten there yet!

I also found it strange that there was no greeter type person when I started going - I don't know what I was expecting but .....
When I found out that I was simply getting there early I was kinda embarrased that I grumbled about it.

That just might be the case for you bro. Especially if you are like me and hate being late. I feel like I have missed something when I walk in at the end of Orthros even though I am actually 20 min early.

Maybe next Sunday, just *after* the Liturgy starts, step outside and have a look at what is going on. You might be surprised to see people hanging around out there.