Why not ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

[ephraimanesti]

DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST: What a great community we have here. i just discovered CF a couple of days ago while Googling for an "Eastern Orthodox Chatroom". CF was tucked away 2 or 3 pages in. Boy am i glad i am persistent--or better, led by the Lord. This place is a little bit of the Kingdom for sure!
i have gotten started in working my way through the multitude of available threads. Unfortunately, i am a recovering alcoholic/addict and, although clean and sober by the Grace of God for a bunch of years, my addictive personality is alive and well, and i can't bring myself to shut down and go to bed at a reasonable hour--"Just one more thread and i'll quit" sounds all too familiar. What a Spiritual feast this all is--unfortunately, i am a Spiritual glutton (or is that an oxymoron?) and not getting much sleep these days
Anyway, i am blessed to attend an O.C.A. Parish--Holy Resurrection--in Tacoma, Washington, and i have just finished reading a glorious book entitled "ORTHODOX PRAYER LIFE--The Interior Way" by Father Matta El-Meskeen. i had read another of Father's books entitled "THE COMMUNION OF LOVE" some time ago and was likewise blessed by it. After reading these two books, i am kind of scratching my head :scratch: regarding all this talk about Copts being "Monophysites" and their holding other "heretical doctrines." i'm not seeing that--and a little defensive because my patron Saint, Saint Ephraim is classified as a Copt--and i am wondering what it is that we are anathamatizing each other about. It seems to be that Saint Paul was pretty clear about splitting the ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church into bickering little factions, when he said, "For you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
(I Corinthians 3:3).
Sooooooo . . . my question is, given that we are, in God's eyes, ONE, why ain't it so? As i said above, i have been working my way through all these threads and perhaps i haven't gotten to the one (or ones) addressing this question, but i would be most interested to hear thoughts on the subject. In my opinion, the only entity who benefits from the fragmenting of the Church is the evil one! :mad:

LOVE TO YOU ALL,:hug:
ephraimanesti

[ConanTheLibrarian]

If you don't mind some comments from someone who is still "on the way" to Orthodoxy: One of the most powerful expereinces of my life was when I was at the university. The Lutheran and the Catholic student groups got together one for a series of discussions over a period of several weeks, each week devoted to how we each understood a certain topic, scripture, salvation, etc. We fully realized that we still had our differnces, but this did enable us to recognize one another as brothers and sisters, and set aside our prejudices.

From that day to this, I have been a firm believer in talking to and especially listening to one another. This means really listening, and not attacking a position based on hearsay or prejudice. It has been painful for me to read a number of posts by Coptic Orthodox who feel that their position has been unfairly distorted. While actual unity may still be a long way off, any small steps we can take toward understanding one another can only be positive, and what Christ would want.

[marcusjan]

maybe the reason is added teachings by man,wrong interpertation of scripture,lack of understanding the truth.Mans claim to fully understand the truth,while infact only with the help of God one can see the full truth.Mans idea that he is wise and his wish to be remembered by generations to come.

Christ said that only he is the one teacher so with our tiny minds and baby spirits lets not interpertate but keep gods word pure and only pass on what he has taught,not what we think he taught us.

be humble and know that we are just children and far from wise.
have blind faith in God not in an institution or other people.

[ephraimanesti]

As Conan observes, we are all on the way. As the old saying goes: "If you come across someone who claims to have it all figured out - - - RUN! As Jesus taught and the Church Fathers stress over and over again--the key to Salvation is humility. Judgementalism, based on a lack of humility, is my major SIN. i have been working hard on attaining some small measure of humility since coming to Orthodoxy 5 years or so ago, and i must say that i am very proud of the progress i have made . . . oops. ;)
Soooooooooooooo . . . how does one sort out the teachings of God from the teachings of man which our Lord warned us against. My wife and children are Protestant, and bless their hearts, they are always using the sola scriptura falsehood as the criteria for their judgments on subjects like veneration of the Theotokos and the Saints, praying before icons, calling the Priest "Father", etc. i, on the other hand (although i have finally learned to keep my mouth shut in a loving sort of way) believe that sola scriptura and sola fide are great heresies, basing my judgment on the fact that if these 2 Protestant criteria for judging the will and workings of God for our salvation were true, than the so-called "reformation" would have produced only 1 protestant "church" instead of thousands, each with differing beliefs and most very intolerant of the rest. i felt pretty smug about this reasoning until my wife pointed out our Orthodox dirty little secret that God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not ONE but two--Eastern and Oriental. That was embarrasing! Praise God that she doesn't realize that Eastern Orthodoxy itself isn't even united, some juristinctions not being in communion with some of the others, and the so-called "American Orthodox Church" not being in communion with anybody. May God have mercy on us for chopping up His Bride!
Perhaps this sinful lack of unity is a good topic for meditation during the Nativity Fast, keeping in mind the words of Saint Paul when he asks of the Corinthians, "IS CHRIST DIVIDED? WAS PAUL CRUCIFIED FOR YOU? OR WERE YOU BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF PAUL?" and again, "NOW I PLEAD WITH YOU, BRETHEREN, BY THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THAT YOU ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, AND THAT THERE BE NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU, BUT THAT YOU BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER IN THE SAME MIND AND IN THE SAME JUDGMENT." Jesus prayed to the Father for us in His great High Priestly prayer following His institution of the Euchrist and shortly before His death and Resurrection, "THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE, AS YOU, FATHER, ARE IN ME, AND I IN YOU; THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US, THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT YOU SENT ME." Lord God, let it be so!

IN LOVE,
ephraimanesti

[choirfiend]

The Orthodox Church is not divided. Though many communions may bear the name "Orthodox" that does not make them part of the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church is those who are "right worshipping" in spirit and in truth with united and apostolic teachings. Oriental Orthodox left the communion waaaay back there over the issue of the nature of Christ. I, for one, hope that we can be united quickly, but not at the expense of compromising what the Orthodox Church has always taught.

If your wife is uneducated in Orthodox teaching, I would suggest stepping up one's own understanding in order to better present why the Oriental Orthodox are not a part of the Orthodox Church.

[orthodoxy]

choirfiend,

The Orthodox Church is not divided.

Though many communions may bear the name "Orthodox" that does not make them part of the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church is those who are "right worshipping" in spirit and in truth with united and apostolic teachings.

Oriental Orthodox left the communion waaaay back there over the issue of the nature of Christ. I, for one, hope that we can be united quickly, but not at the expense of compromising what the Orthodox Church has always taught.

If your wife is uneducated in Orthodox teaching, I would suggest stepping up one's own understanding in order to better present why the Oriental Orthodox are not a part of the Orthodox Church.

huh? You chastized me for my posts in "why be orthodox" then say the Oriental Orthodox are not orthodox enough?

I really do not get this. So we are certain the Oriental Orthodox Church is not part of the Orthodox Church but we dont know about all the other heretical and falkse groups in the Western Church?

How can you dare say the Coptics are not Orthodox?

kyril

[choirfiend]

We know rather clearly where the Church is. The Oriental Orthodox as a whole are not it. Neither is anything else outside of the beliefs of the Church. "we know not where the Church is not" refers much more to people on an individual level, according to how I have been taught.

[Orthodox Andrew]

The Oriental Church is schismatic. And has been for a long time, people.

[ephraimanesti]

If i could briefly respond to ChoirFiend by quoting from the writings of my patron Saint Ephraim (who was Coptic) in regards to the true nature of Christ; please excuse the length:

"He Who is from God, God the Word, the only-begotten Son of the Father, Being from Being, ineffably begotten of the Father without a mother before all ages -- the very same is born in the last days to a daughter of men, to the Virgin Mary without a father. God is born incarnate, wearing flesh borrowed from her, having become man, which He was not, and remaining God, which He was, in order to save the world. And He is Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of the Father and the only-begotten of His Mother.
"I CONFESS ONE AND THE SAME AS BOTH PERFECT GOD AND PERFECT MAN, IN TWO NATURES, UNITED IN ONE HYPOSTATIS OR PERSON, RECOGNIZED AS INDIVISIBLY, UNCONFUSED AND UNCHANGEABLY GOD WHO WAS CLOTHEED IN FLESH, ANIMATED BY AN INTELLIGENT AND RATIONAL SOUL, AND CAME TO RESEMBLE US IN EVERY WAY EXCEPT SIN.
"ONE AND THE SAME IS EARTHLY AND HEAVENLY, TEMPORAL AND ETERNAL, BOTH WITH AND WITHOUT BEGINNING, TIMELESS AND SUBJECT TO TIME, CREATED AND UNCREATED, SUFFFERING AND FREE OF SUFFERING, GOD AND MAN AND PERFECT IN BOTH. ONE IN TWO NATURES, IN BOTH UNITARY."

Where is the alleged heresy in this? i would also suggest perhaps taking the time to read "ORTHODOX PRAYER LIFE" and "THE COMMUNION OF LOVE" by Father Matta El-Meskeen (both available at Amazon or Light-N-Life), likewise a Coptic, and point out to me any "heretical teachings" you find.
As at the Council of Chalcedon, so today, all these charges of heresy and schismaticism are based on misunderstandings, lack of loving and open communication, and a driving desire to be "right." (In addition, of course, at the Council of Chalcedon, there was a strong dose of politics contaminating the mix along with the above.)
Sooooooooooooo . . . as far as explaining the situation to my wife, all i can tell her is that the Orthodox Church is not quite yet the "spotless Bride of Christ" due to the sinfulness of us misguided, and slow-to-understand human beings who make up our Lord's Body on earth who, in our pride and imperfections, would still rather judge and reject rather than Love and embrace. MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON US ALL! :prayer:

IN CHRIST' LOVE AND (hopefully) HUMILITY,
ephraimanesti

[Maximus]

Welcome to TAW, ephraimanesti.

We have hashed and rehashed the issue of the Non-Chalcedonians on this forum. Frankly, it is not a topic many of us enjoy.

You are not likely to find many here who think the Non-Chalcedonians have entirely abandoned Monophysitism and its corollary, Monothelitism.

They still revere as "saints" and "fathers" men anathematized by the Orthodox Fathers at the last four holy ecumenical councils. They still reject those four councils. Non-Chalcedonian leaders still say that our Lord has but one nature and one will.

It is not possible to be Orthodox while holding such views and saying and writing and publishing such things.

That is not to say that Non-Chalcedonians are not Christians or that they are automatically doomed. It is merely a recognition of the fact that there are very very significant differences between us.

Please take a look at the articles here (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_mono.aspx) for more information.

Just out of curiosity, which Ephraim is your patron saint?

[ephraimanesti]

my patron is Saint Ephraim the Syrian--who has alternately been called a "Monophysite heretic" and a "Nestorian schismatic" by various groups at various times. Hopefully, the quote above defines well his views on the 2 natures of Christ.
i admit to not being much of a history buff, and i haven't gone into the pronouncements of the Counsel of Chalcedon, or the reasonings behind them, more than superficially, but it appears obvious to me that the anathemas, etc. were more based upon misunderstandings and differing terminologies than on coflicting core beliefs. Both the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox sides spoke of a union of natures without confusion, without change, without divisions, and without separation. It appears to me that the only difference in positions was the terms used to describe these truths.
i have been blessed by reading some of the writings of current Coptic Monks and Hierarchs, and not only have i not found anything which could be considered "heretical" by a fair-minded Eastern Orthodox, i have been extremely blessed by what i have read and have experienced Spiritual growth in many areas by accepting another viewpoint on, and way of expressing, Orthodox Spiritual Truths. i think anyone who would be willing swallow their prejudices and read either or both of the two books i cited above by Matthew the Poor Man with an open mind and heart would come to the same conclusion i have regarding our Oriental brothers-in-Christ--WE ARE ALL A PART OF THE ONE HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH AND ARE IN DIRE NEED OF BEGINING TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS OUR LORD HAS COMMANDED US TO DO.

MAY YOU BE BLESSED,
ephraimanesti

[prodromos]

my patron is Saint Ephraim the Syrian--who has alternately been called a "Monophysite heretic" and a "Nestorian schismatic" by various groups at various times.Obviously not by the Orthodox church, who considers him among the greatest of saints.

John

[ephraimanesti]

DEAR-TO-GOD-PRODROMOS,

Yes--praise be to God Saint Ephraim the Syrian is indeed one of the greatest of the Eastern Orthodox Saints. He is also considered one of the greatest of Saints by the Coptic, Ethiopic, and Armenian Churches! Pretty cool, huh? :clap:
As Sebastian Brock states in his book THE LUMINOUS EYE, "Saint Ephraim is thus a writer who can pre-eminently serve as a link and meeting point between European Christianity on the one hand, and Asian and African Christianity on the other."
May we "go and do likewise!"

GLORY TO OUR GOD FOR HIS TOLERANCE FOR THE VAIN REASONINGS OF MEN!
ephraimanesti

[Maximus]

St. Ephraim the Syrian (306 - c. 379) lived much too early to be considered either a Monophysite or a Nestorian. He was active, however, on the Orthodox side in the Arian crisis.

St. Ephraim was long dead before anyone had any notion of Nestorians and Monophysites.

Any reference to St. Ephraim as a "Monophysite" or a "Nestorian" is a serious anachronism.

He was an Orthodox saint.

[ephraimanesti]

DEAR-TO-GOD MAXIMUS,

Not to belabor the point, (which, in fact, wasn't the point), but Saint Ephraim, although he lived 100 or so years (306-373) before Nestorius was anathematized at Ephesus in 431 or the Monophysite heresy was dealt with at Chalcedon in 451, his writings, subsequentally taken out of context, were often condemned as having Nestorian or Monophysitical (if that's a word) overtones and were either banned or seriously disparaged by judgmental zealots, the lesson possibly being, as Saint Paul warned Timothy, "But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife."
Yes, Saint Ephraim is indeed revered as one of the greatest of the Orthodox Saints. He is also revered as one of the greatest of the Saints of the Oriental Churches. Which, i guess, was my original point.

GOD'S PEACE AND LOVE TO YA!
ephraimanesti

[Maximus]

DEAR-TO-GOD MAXIMUS,

Not to belabor the point, (which, in fact, wasn't the point), but Saint Ephraim, although he lived 100 or so years (306-373) before Nestorius was anathematized at Ephesus in 431 or the Monophysite heresy was dealt with at Chalcedon in 451, his writings, subsequentally taken out of context, were often condemned as having Nestorian or Monophysitical (if that's a word) overtones and were either banned or seriously disparaged by judgmental zealots, the lesson possibly being, as Saint Paul warned Timothy, "But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife."
Yes, Saint Ephraim is indeed revered as one of the greatest of the Orthodox Saints. He is also revered as one of the greatest of the Saints of the Oriental Churches. Which, i guess, was my original point.

GOD'S PEACE AND LOVE TO YA!
ephraimanesti

St. Ephraim the Syrian was not anathematized at either holy council, Ephesus (431) or Chalcedon (451).

I have read a fair amount of Church history and have never read anywhere that St. Ephraim the Syrian was ever accused of being either a Nestorian or a Monophysite.

I do not believe very many men were dealing with Christological controversies (other than the deity of Christ) during St. Ephraim's lifetime. He certainly did not deal with the material that would make up the later controversies.

Toward the end of St. Ephraim's life, in about 374, Bishop Apollinarius of Laodicea came up with the heresy known as Apollinarianism, in which he supposed that the man Jesus did not have a human soul but rather that the Divine Logos took the place of the soul in Him. This heresy would later influence the Monophysites of Egypt, who accepted certain Apollinarian forgeries as the genuine writings of St. Athanasius.

But St. Ephraim had nothing to do with any of that.

[ephraimanesti]

DEAR-TO-GOD MAXIMUS,

i will defer to your superior grasp of Church History which, i admit, i have only marginal interest in--with one last comment. It appears that, like most of the so-called "differences" between Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, our conversation has likewise been flawed by poor communication--on my part, i must admit. Mea culpa!
Just let me end this with a quick quote from the General Introduction to Saint Ephraim's Prose Works in the Fathers of the Church series: "Ephraim's theological method consciously avoids the kind of 'precision' that generally characterized contemporary theological inquiry informed by Hellenistic philosophical categories. His thought on a given subject remains fluid. It is perhaps for this reason that the theological writings of Ephraim continued to be used by Chalcedonians, Monophysites, and Nestorians alike." Thus, perhaps, our misunderstanding. Thank you for patiently bearing with
me! :clap:
So, the original question remains after this slight detour--Why not ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

MAY YOU BE BLESSED! :amen:
ephraimanesti

P.S. Thank you for not pointing out that i mispelled Apostolic in the original Thread Heading! :sorry:

[Akathist]

P.S. Thank you for not pointing out that i mispelled Apostolic in the original Thread Heading! :sorry:

Hmmmm looks like that Thread Heading is spic and span now... ;) and all letters in their proper order.

[ephraimanesti]

OH GIVE THANKS UNTO THE LORD FOR HE IS GOOD
ALLELUIA! :clap:
FOR HIS MERCY ENDURITH FOREVER
ALLELUIA! :clap:

ONCE EMBARRASSED BUT MY SHAME HAS NOW BEEN COVERED,
ephraimanesti

P.S. Thanks, thornygrace

[prodromos]

When we read the writings of the earlier saints, we must remember that until the councils made definitive statements about the faith in the face of heresies, it was permissible to express the faith in terms that were a lot looser than would be acceptable today. As heresy attacked the church from one theological position or another, the church had to erect fences to clearly deliniate what was orthodox and what was not. Certain expressions which were earlier acceptable within the context of the faith, would later be considered unnacceptable due to not being clear enough in distinguishing orthodox belief from heresy.

I'm afraid I haven't explained my thoughts particularly well, so if someone else is able to give a clearer explanation it would be appreciated. I'm off to see if I can find some intravenous caffeine :)

John