Are Non-Christians Predestined to go to Hell?

[Cary.Melvin]

Are Non-Christians Predestined to go to Hell?

For example, say a man who lived in Saudi Arabia (where Christianity is illegal to be taught) as a devout Muslim all of his life and died. Is he predestined by God to go to Hell because of the place and culture that he was born into did not allow him to be taught the Gospel?

Thanks,

[JJB]

Are Non-Christians Predestined to go to Hell?

For example, say a man who lived in Saudi Arabia (where Christianity is illegal to be taught) as a devout Muslim all of his life and died. Is he predestined by God to go to Hell because of the place and culture that he was born into did not allow him to be taught the Gospel?

Thanks,

Jesus reaches out even in Muslim countries. I have a good friend who has been living in a Muslim country for years as a missionary to share the gospel with any who can safely listen.

This is another way that Jesus reaches Muslims:

www.isaalmasih.net (http://www.isaalmasih.net/)

Look at the dreams & visions section.

Culture is not a hindrance to God.

God is the one who changes the hearts of people, one of our jobs is to share the gospel. Until God changes the hearts of the unsaved, yes, I believe, they are predestined to be vessels of wrath for God's glory.

[frumanchu]

"God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice." - Westminster Confession of Faith, III, i,v,vii
If God purposes to save individuals in such circumstances, they will hear the Gospel and they will come to faith in Christ.

[Cary.Melvin]

If God purposes to save individuals in such circumstances, they will hear the Gospel and they will come to faith in Christ.

So according to Calvinism, people in the Muslim world who live their lives to the best of their abilities in submission to God are predestined to go to Hell?

[frumanchu]

So according to Calvinism, people in the Muslim world who live their lives to the best of their abilities in submission to God are predestined to go to Hell?
People in the Muslim world who live their lives to the best of their abilities in submission to the God of Islam will not be saved.

People in the Muslim world who lives their lives to the best of their abilities in submission to God are not Muslims, they're Christians. ;)

[seekingpurity047]

Romans 9:22-24

22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

To the glory of God,

Randy

[Cary.Melvin]

People in the Muslim world who live their lives to the best of their abilities in submission to the God of Islam will not be saved.

People in the Muslim world who lives their lives to the best of their abilities in submission to God are not Muslims, they're Christians. ;)

Are they Jews predestined to go to Hell as well?

[frumanchu]

Are they Jews predestined to go to Hell as well?

Jews who have faith in Jesus Christ will not. Jews who do not believe He is the Messiah will.

[Cary.Melvin]

How about people that are born mentally incapable that cannot confess faith in Jesus or children that die before being able to confess faith in Jesus? Are those people predestined to go to Hell?

[frumanchu]

How about people that are born mentally incapable that cannot confess faith in Jesus or children that die before being able to confess faith in Jesus? Are those people predestined to go to Hell?

Being unable to express faith is not the same as not possessing faith. God deals with them according to His grace and good will.

[Cary.Melvin]

Being unable to express faith is not the same as not possessing faith. God deals with them according to His grace and good will.

But for this example let us say that a person that is sufficiently mentally incapacitated from birth enough not to be able to possess a faith in Jesus (A mental vegetable, not just an inability to speak) and that a child that has not reached an age of reason enough to possess a faith in Christ that dies. Are they predestined by God to go to Hell?

[frumanchu]

But for this example let us say that a person that is sufficiently mentally incapacitated from birth enough not to be able to possess a faith in Jesus (A mental vegetable, not just an inability to speak) and that a child that has not reached an age of reason enough to possess a faith in Christ that dies. Are they predestined by God to go to Hell?

Such is at God's discretion. He deals with them no differently than with any other person. If it pleases Him to do so (and I personally believe it does), He will regenerate their hearts and inspire within it a love for Him, even if that love by means of their incapacitation cannot be expressed.

This is one of the chief differences between Reformed sotriology and others. Those who do not believe in God's unconditional election are forced to invent things such as an "age of accountability" or deny the full scope of original sin in order to make provision for the salvation of the disabled and infants. The Reformed position remains consistent: whom God purposes to save He can and will.

[Cary.Melvin]

Such is at God's discretion. He deals with them no differently than with any other person. If it pleases Him to do so (and I personally believe it does), He will regenerate their hearts and inspire within it a love for Him, even if that love by means of their incapacitation cannot be expressed.

This is one of the chief differences between Reformed sotriology and others. Those who do not believe in God's unconditional election are forced to invent things such as an "age of accountability" or deny the full scope of original sin in order to make provision for the salvation of the disabled and infants. The Reformed position remains consistent: whom God purposes to save He can and will.

Nevertheless, from what I gather from what you and others have said in this forum, anyone who does not have faith in Jesus, including people that die in infancy or who are severely mentally disabled, are predestined by God to Hell. Right?

[Beoga]

Nevertheless, from what I gather from what you and others have said in this forum, anyone who does not have faith in Jesus, including people that die in infancy or who are severely mentally disabled, are predestined by God to Hell. Right?

Did you not read what you quoted? Fru answered this question. God deals with the person individually. If God chooses to regenerate them and give them a love for Him, He will do so. We cannot dogmatically say what God will do with each and every person.

[pinkieposies]

Nevertheless, from what I gather from what you and others have said in this forum, anyone who does not have faith in Jesus, including people that die in infancy or who are severely mentally disabled, are predestined by God to Hell. Right?

As far as I can tell, no one has claimed that infants or the severely mentally handicapped are pretestined to go to hell because of their inability to have faith. It clearly says in God's Word that we are all just as incapable of receiving faith on our own; we are all infants, incapable and disabled in this respect. Yet God chooses, by His own good will and pleasure {which we are not capable of fully understanding} to save some and to not save others. This is the most wonderful thing about true faith! We receive it by God's grace alone! Not by our own abilities! This includes infants and the disabled; it is all up to God's own GOOD WILL and PLEASURE. Our God is not a God who delights in evil or darkness; so I also personally believe that He would pleasure in saving those infants, etc. But it is not up to us who is saved, and we cannot truly know each person who is. In these cases all we can do is trust in God, and what He has revealed to us about who He is in His Word. Because He is fully capable, merciful, and just enough to save us and any one else that He pleases.

If you are confused, I suggest you go back and re-read the posts that Frumanchu posted about this. He said it all very well; clearly and simply :thumbsup: .

Better yet, go to your Bible. Read Romans or anything else in there regarding predestination or the sovereignity of God for yourself and see what you come up with.

And if you still don't get it, maybe you are not paying attention, or you're just here looking for an argument.

God Bless,
Erin

[Cary.Melvin]

As far as I can tell, no one has claimed that infants or the severely mentally handicapped are pretestined to go to hell because of their inability to have faith. It clearly says in God's Word that we are all just as incapable of receiving faith on our own; we are all infants, incapable and disabled in this respect. Yet God chooses, by His own good will and pleasure {which we are not capable of fully understanding} to save some and to not save others. This is the most wonderful thing about true faith! We receive it by God's grace alone! Not by our own abilities! This includes infants and the disabled; it is all up to God's own GOOD WILL and PLEASURE. Our God is not a God who delights in evil or darkness; so I also personally believe that He would pleasure in saving those infants, etc. But it is not up to us who is saved, and we cannot truly know each person who is. In these cases all we can do is trust in God, and what He has revealed to us about who He is in His Word. Because He is fully capable, merciful, and just enough to save us and any one else that He pleases.

If you are confused, I suggest you go back and re-read the posts that Frumanchu posted about this. He said it all very well; clearly and simply :thumbsup: .

Better yet, go to your Bible. Read Romans or anything else in there regarding predestination or the sovereignity of God for yourself and see what you come up with.

And if you still don't get it, maybe you are not paying attention, or you're just here looking for an argument.

God Bless,
Erin

But from the Calvinist point of view (if I am correct), A person that is predestined to salvation would not die in infancy or be born severely mentally disabled, because that would prevent them from having a faith in Jesus, which you need for salvation.


If a Calvinist can positively discern, based on ones faith as evidence, that they are predestined to salvation, wouldn't it follow that if God created someone who was unable to have faith in Jesus, they would be predestined to damnation?

[Jon_]

Are Non-Christians Predestined to go to Hell?

For example, say a man who lived in Saudi Arabia (where Christianity is illegal to be taught) as a devout Muslim all of his life and died. Is he predestined by God to go to Hell because of the place and culture that he was born into did not allow him to be taught the Gospel?

Thanks,
I cannot says that that particular person is predestined to hell. No one knows who the elect or reprobate are. I think the question, "Are non-Christians predestined to go to hell?" might be a little vague in meaning, so I'll respond in this fashion: the reprobate are predestined to go to hell.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[pinkieposies]

But from the Calvinist point of view (if I am correct), A person that is predestined to salvation would not die in infancy or be born severly mentally disabled, because that would prevent them from having a faith in Jesus which you need for salvation.

If a Calvinist can positivly disurn, based on ones faith as evidence, that they are predestined to salvation, wouldn't it follow that if God created someone who was unable to have faith in Jesus, would be predestined to damnation?

First of all: NOTHING can keep you from salvation but God's own decision to do so! Second: No one needs to "prove" their faith to anyone; Not a Calvanist, a Baptist, or me or you, or anyone! Third: Like I already said, "Without God we are ALL unable" from the get-go! And what makes you think that just because an infant has died before they could preform any works of faith {or PROOF in your thinking it seems}, that Christ has not worked through them??? It is not what we do, it is what CHRIST does through us!

Erin

[Jon_]

So according to Calvinism, people in the Muslim world who live their lives to the best of their abilities in submission to God are predestined to go to Hell?
The works of an unrighteous man are as rags to the Lord (Is. 64:6). Even the plowing of the unrighteous is sinful to God (Prov. 21:4). The Lord looks down from heaven to see if there is any who does good, but there are none (Ps. 14:3).

Do not fool yourself. There are no Muslims that do good. They are evil, wicked, God-hating tools of Satan, who willingly transgress the law and make war against God.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

Are they Jews predestined to go to Hell as well?
The reprobate Jews are, yes.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[frumanchu]

But from the Calvinist point of view (if I am correct), A person that is predestined to salvation would not die in infancy or be born severely mentally disabled, because that would prevent them from having a faith in Jesus, which you need for salvation.

Not true. Infants and these disabled are not able to outwardly express the disposition of their hearts (by outwardly express I include the normal faculty of the will which they do not at that point possess), but that does not change their covenantal position.

Keep in mind that they are condemnable in the first place on the basis of their covenantal representation in Adam. Man's sinfulness, as manifest normally in the faculty of the will and the outward actions of the individual, proceeds from a heart that is from the very beginning full of evil. We are not sinners because we sin, but rather we sin because we are sinners. In regenerating these people He is replacing their heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

If a Calvinist can positively discern, based on ones faith as evidence, that they are predestined to salvation, wouldn't it follow that if God created someone who was unable to have faith in Jesus, they would be predestined to damnation?

Now though we are talking about subjective vs objective evidence. The only person whose election you or I can have any real assurance of is our own. While we can see the present outward state of others, we cannot see their heart, so we do not know if the works which they perform are born of something other than a regenerate, and more importantly in this case we do not know if the perceived lack of such works is indicative of a lack of a regenerate heart.

[Jon_]

How about people that are born mentally incapable that cannot confess faith in Jesus or children that die before being able to confess faith in Jesus? Are those people predestined to go to Hell?
All men are imputed the unrighteousness of Adam (Rom. 5:12). All men sin from the womb (Ps. 58:3). All men know God, but deny him in their hearts (Rom. 1:18-21). All men are born wicked and deserving of damnation. All men are born enemies of God, hating him and his law, transgressing it in word, thought, and deed.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

But for this example let us say that a person that is sufficiently mentally incapacitated from birth enough not to be able to possess a faith in Jesus (A mental vegetable, not just an inability to speak) and that a child that has not reached an age of reason enough to possess a faith in Christ that dies. Are they predestined by God to go to Hell?
If the child is elect, it shall be saved. If reprobate, it shall not.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

Nevertheless, from what I gather from what you and others have said in this forum, anyone who does not have faith in Jesus, including people that die in infancy or who are severely mentally disabled, are predestined by God to Hell. Right?
All the elect will be saved. All the reprobate will not.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

But from the Calvinist point of view (if I am correct), A person that is predestined to salvation would not die in infancy or be born severely mentally disabled, because that would prevent them from having a faith in Jesus, which you need for salvation.
This does not follow. The Calvinist view does not affirm this.

If a Calvinist can positively discern, based on ones faith as evidence, that they are predestined to salvation, wouldn't it follow that if God created someone who was unable to have faith in Jesus, they would be predestined to damnation?
No one can know the state of the soul of another person. No Calvinist, no man, can "positively discern . . . that [one is] predestined to salvation." So the answer to your question is no. It does not follow.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Cary.Melvin]

If the child is elect, it shall be saved. If reprobate, it shall not.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

If the child has no faith in Jesus, how could he/she be elect (In the Calvinist view of course)? If the child were truly elect, God would not predestine them to die in infancy. Right?

[Jon_]

The Pre-destined belief has never really made any sense.
Obviously not to you, but that doesn't mean it does not make sense at all.

If we were all pre-destined..then that takes away free will...
Define "free will."

it takes away choice...
How?

which means the incredibly complex brain God created was a waste...
How?

and that our lives are nothing more than a big, sick joke
Says who? You?

because nothing you do changes anything... and the point of you making any decision is just as pointless as existance.
You think existence is pointless? Why does being able to "change" (what do you mean by that?) something make existence have a point and not having that ability make existence pointless? Do you have any Scriptures that affirm this or is this nothing more than your opinion? If it's your opinion, why should I care?

It also means I wouldn't be responsible for ANY of my actions..because it was pre-destined to happen.
How are you not responsible?

:)
You've obviously new at this, so I'm trying to go easy on you. This smug little smiley after such an ignorant monologue is making it difficult.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

If the child has no faith in Jesus, how could he/she be elect (In the Calvinist view of course)?
What makes you think that all children that die have no faith?

If the child were truly elect, God would not predestine them to die in infancy. Right?
How does that follow?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Cary.Melvin]

No one can know the state of the soul of another person.

Jon you said earlier:

"Do not fool yourself. There are no Muslims that do good. They are evil, wicked, God-hating tools of Satan, who willingly transgress the law and make war against God."
To me that sounds that you (or Calvinism in general) have placed the Muslims in the ranks of the reprobate, based on their understanding of God. Is this correct? Are children of Muslims also placed with the reprobate as well? Wouldn't children in general who die without a faith in Jesus be assigned to the reprobate as well?

[Cary.Melvin]

What makes you think that all children that die have no faith?

How could they have faith in something that they do not know? Babies don't come out of the womb having a faith in Jesus Christ. That is why that we as parents must teach them.

[rnmomof7]

If the child has no faith in Jesus, how could he/she be elect (In the Calvinist view of course)? If the child were truly elect, God would not predestine them to die in infancy. Right?

Was John the Baptist ?

If God has ordained that an infant in the womb know him, the child will know Him.

Salvation is an act of a sovereign God, it is not dependent at all on man.So it does not depend on our intellect or age or OUTWARD ability to understand or grasp the gospel.

Have you ever read when Helen Keller was first told of God, she said she "knew " there had to be a God.

Infants are saved in the womb, they are saved in their mothers arms or at the breast if God reveals Himself to them.

[rnmomof7]

Mod Hat.


I Just want to inform posters that I have moved this thread to the appropriate forum for discussion.

This is a congregational area and so there is no debate. Debating posts will be removed by staff.

Thanks

[Jon_]

To me that sounds that you (or Calvinism in general) have placed the Muslims in the ranks of the reprobate, based on their understanding of God. Is this correct?
When did I say Muslims are reprobate? The answer to your question is no. I mean that anyone who is currently a Muslim is not a believer in God. This does not mean that they will not convert later in their lives.

Are children of Muslims also placed with the reprobate as well? Wouldn't children in general who die without a faith in Jesus be assigned to the reprobate as well?




I'm sorry, you do not seem to understand reprobation. Reprobation refers only to the eternal decree of God before the foundations of the world we laid. If someone is reprobate, they are predestined to damnation before they are even born. Their temporal life cannot necessarily be used as a gauge for God's decree in their life. God's decree of election and reprobation is eternally hidden from the eyes of men. It is impious for anyone to declare another person to be reprobate. They cannot possibly know that.

I can understand that you are trying to reduce the Calvinist position to absurdity, but you're certainly not going to accomplish that by inferring from reprobation. I'd suggest you look elsewhere.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[frumanchu]

Jon you said earlier:

"Do not fool yourself. There are no Muslims that do good. They are evil, wicked, God-hating tools of Satan, who willingly transgress the law and make war against God."
To me that sounds that you (or Calvinism in general) have placed the Muslims in the ranks of the reprobate, based on their understanding of God. Is this correct? Are children of Muslims also placed with the reprobate as well? Wouldn't children in general who die without a faith in Jesus be assigned to the reprobate as well?





Please understand that there is a difference between knowing whether somebody is saved and knowing if they are elect or reprobate. All the elect are covenantally in a state of condemnation from birth up until the point they are brought to faith in Christ. If, hypothetically, an elect person were to die prior to being regenerated and brought to faith, that person would still go to hell. That does not happen, but the point being illustrated is that while we can say that Muslims who do not believe in Christ are unsaved, we cannot say that they are not elect unless they have persisted in that unbelief to their death.

Does that make sense to you?

[Jon_]

How could they have faith in something that they do not know?
How do you know they don't know?

Babies don't come out of the womb having a faith in Jesus Christ.
How do you know?

That is why that we as parents must teach them.
This begs the question. In any case, this is not why we must teach them. We must teach them because we are commanded to teach them.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Cary.Melvin]

Salvation is an act of a sovereign God, it is not dependent at all on man.So it does not depend on our intellect or age or OUTWARD ability to understand or grasp the gospel.


So doesn't that mean that even non-Christains can be saved? For example, the Jew or the Muslim that cannot fully grasp the gospel of Jesus Christ, but lives his life in obedience to God to the best of his understanding will be saved by God's grace.

[Jon_]

So doesn't that mean that even non-Christains can be saved?
No.

For example, the Jew or the Muslim that cannot fully grasp the gospel of Jesus Christ, but lives his life in obedience to God to the best of his understanding will be saved by God's grace.
Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). I also quoted you three other Scriptures that say there are none on earth that do good. How many more should I quote? 5? 10? 50? Pick a number, the Bible is rife with the message that natural man is utterly incapable of doing anything good whatsoever. It is simply false that a Jew or a Muslim could do anything that God would construe as good without faith in Jesus Christ. I understand that the Catholic Church teaches you otherwise, but this is not what the Bible teaches.

Moreover, you do err greatly in not understanding the grace of God. Grace is not given to him who works, for then it would be no more grace. Nor is he who works rewarded with grace, for the work is accounted as debt. Grace is given by divine prerogative to those that God will save, for all are incapable of earning salvation themselves. For we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. Therefore, grace and regeneration, precede faith, which precedes works.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

Great thread :clap:

Peace to u,

Bill

[pinkieposies]

If the child has no faith in Jesus, how could he/she be elect (In the Calvinist view of course)? If the child were truly elect, God would not predestine them to die in infancy. Right?

I'm sorry that doesn't make ANY sense to me. You are presuming a lot of things here. It seems that you are just out to make Calvinists look like a bunch of cold-hearted meanies who want to send babies to hell.

:sigh:

So far there have been many good answers to your question. Maybe I just don't understand the point you are trying to make. Maybe if you could state your question more clearly we could do a better job at clearly answering it?

Erin

[JJB]

Being unable to express faith is not the same as not possessing faith. God deals with them according to His grace and good will.

Amen. I had a relative who had down's syndrome. He died when I was a child. I know I will see him again in heaven one day. I enjoyed his company because we both shared a faith: mine was expressible in words, his was expressible in body language! :clap:

[rnmomof7]

So doesn't that mean that even non-Christains can be saved? For example, the Jew or the Muslim that cannot fully grasp the gospel of Jesus Christ, but lives his life in obedience to God to the best of his understanding will be saved by God's grace.


Abraham was a pagan from a family of idol makers when God revealed Himself to him. He believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.


Elizabeth was a Jew, but the child in her womb knew Christ when he was in His presence.

The issue is not a nationality one, it is a faith one.

If the Muslim or Jew is elect of God, God will make sure that He hears the gospel and is saved.


The Bible is clear that there is no salvation outside of Christ.

[CCWoody]

But for this example let us say that a person that is sufficiently mentally incapacitated from birth enough not to be able to possess a faith in Jesus (A mental vegetable, not just an inability to speak) and that a child that has not reached an age of reason enough to possess a faith in Christ that dies. Are they predestined by God to go to Hell?

Why is faith and the work of the Holy Spirit limited to human ability? Does the Roman Catholic Church view some people beyond God's ability and therefore give them a free pass?

[CCWoody]

But from the Calvinist point of view (if I am correct), A person that is predestined to salvation would not die in infancy or be born severely mentally disabled, because that would prevent them from having a faith in Jesus, which you need for salvation.

Calvinists do not limit God's ability by human ability. Neither do we elevate man above the will of God. Always in balance. We do not hamstring the Holy Spirit because someone seems from a human perspective to be unable to express faith.

If that were the case, then it would be logical to prescreen people with an IQ test before giving them the gospel.

Salvation is of the Lord and his blessing is on his people.

[CCWoody]

The reprobate Jews are, yes.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Just as Reprobated Christians. There will be quite a few people thrust out of the kingdom because they thought that they could approach God on their terms instead of his terms.

The interesting thing here is that babies always seem to be a favorite kind of whipping boy against the ideas of Election & Reprobation. The assumption is that babies are innocent when the core issue is not "Do Calvinists think babies, who cannot express faith, are Reprobates" but is "Why do you deny Original Sin and the inherent depravity of man in the spirit of Pelagius?"

[Bob Moore]

If, hypothetically, an elect person were to die prior to being regenerated and brought to faith, that person would still go to hell. That does not happen,...

Hi Fru, long time no see. I'm glad to see you are still in the trenches.

I know your statement above is hypothetical, but I submit that it is impossible even hypothetically. Since the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world their number can not change. It will be, as we see in the Revelation, "complete", but the number can not change. So then an elect person is basically invulnerable to death until the gift of saving faith is received. If that were not so, then an elect person could wind up in hell, which we are doubtless agreed is not possible.

but the point being illustrated is that while we can say that Muslims who do not believe in Christ are unsaved, we cannot say that they are not elect unless they have persisted in that unbelief to their death.

Exactly.

[Jon_]

I know your statement above is hypothetical, but I submit that it is impossible even hypothetically.
Just like a square circle is hypothetically and actually impossible.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[frumanchu]

Hi Fru, long time no see. I'm glad to see you are still in the trenches.

I have plenty of help these days ;)

I know your statement above is hypothetical, but I submit that it is impossible even hypothetically. Since the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world their number can not change. It will be, as we see in the Revelation, "complete", but the number can not change. So then an elect person is basically invulnerable to death until the gift of saving faith is received. If that were not so, then an elect person could wind up in hell, which we are doubtless agreed is not possible.

Yes, but the impossibility of it lies in the immutability of God's decree, not in election itself. Logically speaking, it is possible that God could elect an individual but then fail to bring that person to faith and preserve them in it. Since election in and of itself does not confer salvation, that elect person would perish. Theologically speaking, it is impossible because of the immutability of God's decree. God will not elect someone and then not bring them to faith and ultimately save them.

The surety of our salvation rests not simply upon God's decree of election, but upon His immutable will whereby He will not fail to bring to pass that which He purposes.

Election is the formal cause of our salvation. Faith is the instrumental cause by which it is accomplished. The two are inseparable, but nevertheless distinct.

[CCWoody]

Just like a square circle is hypothetically and actually impossible.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I guess that you haven't been around some of the Arminians that I have. They seem to think that a square circle is possible.

[bertie]

ACTS:10 :34-35- any one who reveres(acknowledges Gods sovriegnty )and lives the one true law has a shot at eternity .....There is the promise in writing.
I think the Millenium is where the souls of the people who were truly humble before their God,and endeavoured as much as is humanly possible,to respect life by their lights,will get a chance to accept Christ as their savior
This is why satan gets unbound to test the faith of all one final time,at the end.Those who were wicked and callous all their lives will not even get ressurected for the chance but will sleep till they get judged and sentenced to the fiery lake and the second death

[frumanchu]

Just like a square circle is hypothetically and actually impossible.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Bad analogy. See above. A square circle is a manifest absurdity because it violates the law of non-contradiction. One cannot even hypothesize it without changing the definition of one or both.

Hypothesizing about elect people not being saved is not the same because they do not, strictly speaking, refer to the same thing.

[Jon_]

Bad analogy. See above. A square circle is a manifest absurdity because it violates the law of non-contradiction. One cannot even hypothesize it without changing the definition of one or both.

Hypothesizing about elect people not being saved is not the same because they do not, strictly speaking, refer to the same thing.
Actually, the analogy is a great one because the terms "square" and "circle" are contradictory by definition. In the same way, someone who is elect never coming to faith is by definition contradictory. If "elect" does not entail faith, then the term loses its meaning because faith is the alone instrument of salvation, which precisely what the "elect" are elected to.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[frumanchu]

Actually, the analogy is a great one because the terms "square" and "circle" are contradictory by definition. In the same way, someone who is elect never coming to faith is by definition contradictory. If "elect" does not entail faith, then the term loses its meaning because faith is the alone instrument of salvation, which precisely what the "elect" are elected to.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

You are correct with respect to the manner in which "square" and "circle" are contradictory. This is because we are speaking at the same time and in the same relationship.

In the case of the elect, they are elect when they are born but they do not necessarily possess faith when they are born, and thus Christ's righteousness is not yet imputed to them nor are their sins expiated. Election is they decree that God will save that person (formal cause), but faith is the means by which that decree is carried out (instrumental cause) and it does not occur at the same time as election.

Jon, what I am hypothesizing is the very same thing Peter speaks to in 2 Peter 3:9. It is hypothetically possible from a logical standpoint that He could come in judgement before the full number of the elect had been brought to faith and repentance, but practically (and theologically) impossible that He will do so because He is not willing that any should perish.

[seekingpurity047]

Might I add... if a politician is elected, he, therefore, becomes part of government. If a politician is elected... there is no way (in a democratic society... that is) that he can't be part of government. Same thing with salvation. If someoen is elected, they are going to be saved, when is up to God, but it has to be in the elected person's lifetime...

To the glory of God,

Randy

[Jon_]

In the case of the elect, they are elect when they are born but they do not necessarily possess faith when they are born, and thus Christ's righteousness is not yet imputed to them nor are their sins expiated. Election is they decree that God will save that person (formal cause), but faith is the means by which that decree is carried out (instrumental cause) and it does not occur at the same time as election.
I figured that this is what you meant and I almost thought to talk about it in my last post. I understand what you mean and where you're coming from. I just think there's a bit of a misunderstanding with regards to time and eternity. Time is a product of a finite mind. We conceive of time because we are not eternal. In the mind of God, there is no time. God's mind is eternal, which is why his decree is eternal. All of God's decrees are immediate. He does not decree that we will be saved and then wait around and direct the course of the world so that it will happen. It is already complete in God's mind, we are the ones working out the details (which have also been ordained by God). Faith and election only seem disconnected to us because we only understand faith in a spatio-temporal, finite sense. God's decree of election entails faith and as we are eternally elect, we eternally have faith. The concept of the "time" at which we became saved is only present within our finite minds.

Consider it from God's point of view. God knows we are elect, right? God has decreed the elect have faith, right? If God knows one is elect, then God knows that one has been given faith. If God knows this, then it is so. If God knows it, it is eternally true, for if truth changed in the mind of God, he would not be immutable. It is impossible for God to "know" that we will at some point have faith. He does not "know" in the context of time because he is eternal. Eternity is the absence of time and time is a product of the finite mind.

In other words, the elect are eternally elect, eternally have faith, and eternally have Christ's righteousness imputed to them. This must be true because God knows it and God is eternal. It is one of his essential characteristics and, as a logical predicate, it attaches to everything he knows and does.

Within the context of God's decree, everything is immediate and simultaneous. Within the context of our finite minds, the two are something quite different. So, it therefore depends on what sense, or what "time" you talk about faith. If we talk about the faith of the elect, then election logically predicates faith, which is predicated by God's eternal decree, which means we are speaking of the eternal faith of the elect, which leads us to the problem of definiton when we say that it is hypothetically possible for someone to be elect but never have faith and thus go to hell. It's not even hypothetically possible because it is logically contradictory.

Jon, what I am hypothesizing is the very same thing Peter speaks to in 2 Peter 3:9. It is hypothetically possible from a logical standpoint that He could come in judgement before the full number of the elect had been brought to faith and repentance, but practically (and theologically) impossible that He will do so because He is not willing that any should perish.
Because of the confusion regarding time and eternity above, I do not think 2 Pt. 3:9 is in context.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[frumanchu]

I figured that this is what you meant and I almost thought to talk about it in my last post. I understand what you mean and where you're coming from. I just think there's a bit of a misunderstanding with regards to time and eternity. Time is a product of a finite mind. We conceive of time because we are not eternal. In the mind of God, there is no time. God's mind is eternal, which is why his decree is eternal. All of God's decrees are immediate. He does not decree that we will be saved and then wait around and direct the course of the world so that it will happen. It is already complete in God's mind, we are the ones working out the details (which have also been ordained by God). Faith and election only seem disconnected to us because we only understand faith in a spatio-temporal, finite sense. God's decree of election entails faith and as we are eternally elect, we eternally have faith. The concept of the "time" at which we became saved is only present within our finite minds.

Consider it from God's point of view. God knows we are elect, right? God has decreed the elect have faith, right? If God knows one is elect, then God knows that one has been given faith. If God knows this, then it is so. If God knows it, it is eternally true, for if truth changed in the mind of God, he would not be immutable. It is impossible for God to "know" that we will at some point have faith. He does not "know" in the context of time because he is eternal. Eternity is the absence of time and time is a product of the finite mind.

In other words, the elect are eternally elect, eternally have faith, and eternally have Christ's righteousness imputed to them. This must be true because God knows it and God is eternal. It is one of his essential characteristics and, as a logical predicate, it attaches to everything he knows and does.

Within the context of God's decree, everything is immediate and simultaneous. Within the context of our finite minds, the two are something quite different. So, it therefore depends on what sense, or what "time" you talk about faith. If we talk about the faith of the elect, then election logically predicates faith, which is predicated by God's eternal decree, which means we are speaking of the eternal faith of the elect, which leads us to the problem of definiton when we say that it is hypothetically possible for someone to be elect but never have faith and thus go to hell. It's not even hypothetically possible because it is logically contradictory.


Because of the confusion regarding time and eternity above, I do not think 2 Pt. 3:9 is in context.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I recognize the difference between time and eternity. Keep in mind the context of my original statement. There is a difference between knowing if someone is saved and knowing whether or not they are elect or reprobate. This conversation is obviously taking place from the human perspective. I can say with certainty that an individual who says they do not believe in Jesus Christ is not saved, but I cannot say they are reprobate because I don't know whether or not God has elected them and simply not yet brought them to faith in Christ.

This is the same context in which Peter makes his statement. Indeed, Peter's statement would not make any sense were he to be speaking of it from the vantage point of eternity. Of course God is not willing that His elect should perish. But the explanation is given from the human perspective as to why Christ has not yet come in judgement. The reason is that He has not brought all the elect to faith yet.

We're approaching the same subject from two different sides, but I'm sure we are in agreement. ;)

[Jon_]

I recognize the difference between time and eternity. Keep in mind the context of my original statement. There is a difference between knowing if someone is saved and knowing whether or not they are elect or reprobate. This conversation is obviously taking place from the human perspective. I can say with certainty that an individual who says they do not believe in Jesus Christ is not saved, but I cannot say they are reprobate because I don't know whether or not God has elected them and simply not yet brought them to faith in Christ.

This is the same context in which Peter makes his statement. Indeed, Peter's statement would not make any sense were he to be speaking of it from the vantage point of eternity. Of course God is not willing that His elect should perish. But the explanation is given from the human perspective as to why Christ has not yet come in judgement. The reason is that He has not brought all the elect to faith yet.

We're approaching the same subject from two different sides, but I'm sure we are in agreement. ;)
It would seem that we agree. I think the hypothetical just threw me off a bit. I tried to work it out in my head, but concluded that it couldn't follow.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[aisling7]

Jesus Christ showed compassion for young children. See Mark 10:14 People of the day thought that children's intellect wasn't sufficient for the gospel. We do not have faith with our intellect. Our Faith comes when God turns our heart towards him. See also, Eph 2:8,9 Many people see this verse and say that God's Grace is not of ourselves, but it is also the Faith that is not of ourselves! Romans 3:10,11 Without God turning our hearts, we are all equally incapable of finding and believing in God.

Jackie

[daughteroftheking1983]

The parable of the talents is quite relevant in this post. Luke 12 v 42-48

I believe wholeheartedly that God will judge us individually according to how much of Him we have had contact with. For example, an adult living in the West who has had the gospel clearly explained to him or her will be accountable for their response. A child or person with severe learning disabilities will also be judged according to what they have been given. If they have not yet reached the age of understanding, or if they will never reach it, I believe that God in His mercy will save them. On the same line, a person living in a place that has had no gospel infiltration will be judged according to how they have lived their lives. I believe that the glory and goodness of God can be seen in all of creation and there are numerous stories of God appearing to true seekers, without using people. I personally know a number of former muslim people who, after searching the koran, sought to know more about Jesus and God led them to believers, or spoke directly into their lives, bringing them to faith.

Luke 12v 48 "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

[BBAS 64]

The parable of the talents is quite relevant in this post. Luke 12 v 42-48

I believe wholeheartedly that God will judge us individually according to how much of Him we have had contact with. For example, an adult living in the West who has had the gospel clearly explained to him or her will be accountable for their response. A child or person with severe learning disabilities will also be judged according to what they have been given. If they have not yet reached the age of understanding, or if they will never reach it, I believe that God in His mercy will save them. On the same line, a person living in a place that has had no gospel infiltration will be judged according to how they have lived their lives. I believe that the glory and goodness of God can be seen in all of creation and there are numerous stories of God appearing to true seekers, without using people. I personally know a number of former muslim people who, after searching the koran, sought to know more about Jesus and God led them to believers, or spoke directly into their lives, bringing them to faith.

Luke 12v 48 "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
Good Day, Daughter of the king

Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Very intresting use of this parable. But this parable is about believers.

His Household is the church. His sevants are not unbelivers.

The old age of accoutability :confused: , surely that is unbiblical.

Judged by how they lived their life.. then they condem themselves and God will justly find them quilty. There are none that seek after God, zip, nada, none.


Peace to u,

Bill

[hlaltimus]

Are Non-Christians Predestined to go to Hell?

For example, say a man who lived in Saudi Arabia (where Christianity is illegal to be taught) as a devout Muslim all of his life and died. Is he predestined by God to go to Hell because of the place and culture that he was born into did not allow him to be taught the Gospel?

Thanks,

If God is a truly eternal Being, then He must be acknowledge as an antecedent Being, and must then in some way be before all things and that is why the scriptures declare, "...He is before all things..." Colossians 1:17 The question can only be answered by being further complicating it with a second question, "What is the difference between an act of foreordination and an act of ordination? The terms, by way of translation, are both used in the Holy Bible and therefore both are allowed for. My feeling is that foreordination, or predestination, is always in a particular sense and always positive in objective. Even the foreordained death of Christ was positive in that it's objective was to save, while such passages like, "...They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed." in I Peter 2:8b refer to in-time ordination. Judas stumbled over the Rock of Christ, and this scripture in I Peter would seem to indicate that God appointed that stumbling, but since all scriptures dealing with foreordination are positive in nature, we must conclude that God appointed Judas to this fate based upon his willful choice of disobedience in time.

[Bob Moore]

If God is a truly eternal Being, then He must be acknowledge as an antecedent Being, and must then in some way be before all things and that is why the scriptures declare, "...He is before all things..." Colossians 1:17 The question can only be answered by being further complicating it with a second question, "What is the difference between an act of foreordination and an act of ordination? The terms, by way of translation, are both used in the Holy Bible and therefore both are allowed for. My feeling is that foreordination, or predestination, is always in a particular sense and always positive in objective. Even the foreordained death of Christ was positive in that it's objective was to save, while such passages like, "...They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed." in I Peter 2:8b refer to in-time ordination. Judas stumbled over the Rock of Christ, and this scripture in I Peter would seem to indicate that God appointed that stumbling, but since all scriptures dealing with foreordination are positive in nature, we must conclude that God appointed Judas to this fate based upon his willful choice of disobedience in time.


This is not original with you. Would you care to specify your source?

[CCWoody]

This is not original with you. Would you care to specify your source?
Hmmm, notice the logical contradition and the difficulty with Romans 9 that it has?

[inchristalone221]

For the sake of throwing new light on the issue of children and reprobation, I believe it is necessary to exposit an interesting hypothetical:

A child or person with severe learning disabilities will also be judged according to what they have been given. If they have not yet reached the age of understanding, or if they will never reach it, I believe that God in His mercy will save them.

I whole-heartedly believe this (I say this up front to avoid the impression that I'm some psychotic, hateful individual who thinks all babies go to hell). However, if God chose not to save them, I would still believe in the same doctrines of grace. Further, I would not presume to question God's justice in condemning anyone He sees fit to condemn.

I notice in the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate, most of the argument centers around Arminians (and Pelagians) questioning the Calvinist model on the grounds that God is not just if He does such a thing as election. Paul answered such questioning "Who are you oh man that you should talk back to God in this way?"

I personally believe that God saves children who die (simply because of what I know of God's character from His word), but my question to the Arminian/Pelagian/Catholic is this:

If I simply respond that children are reprobate, would you consider God unjust?

[Salesian]

Are Non-Christians Predestined to go to Hell?

For example, say a man who lived in Saudi Arabia (where Christianity is illegal to be taught) as a devout Muslim all of his life and died. Is he predestined by God to go to Hell because of the place and culture that he was born into did not allow him to be taught the Gospel?

Thanks,

I realize there has been much discussion up to now, but to address the OP,...

As a Calvinist, I never believed, nor was I taught to believe, that a person being born into a Muslim, Hindu, etc, culture was de facto reprobate. The term "predistined" is commonly referred to as the elect, not used to refer to those outside of the # of the elect, the "invisible church."

The individual's rejection of the Gospel of Christ, when/if he is presented with the Gospel and call to faith, and the individual's dying unrepentant in that state would be the only indication of that person's predestination or reprobation. But then again, based on JBFA, who actually knows whether or not that person was gifted with faith at the last moment of their life??

-Rob

[Salesian]

Maybe it's already been brought up, but the WMCOF, which I'm sure everyone here knows about, as a famous and enduring statement of the Calvinist beliefs, does mention "elect infants."

Chapter 10 - Effectual Calling
Article 3:

Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth; so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

By the way, that last little bit can cover a lot of people!! But it must be taken in context with the whole of the confession.

Some examples are Luke 18:15, Acts 2:38 (you and your children), John 3:8, and also John the Baptist leaping in his mother's womb when the Blessed Virgin Mary visited Elizabeth, and also Solomon's son who died (II Samuel 12: 14-23), are other examples that are used, but not listed.

That's also a good view for a covenental view of God's dealing with Christian families :thumbsup:

-Rob

[Bob Moore]

Originally Posted by: Cary.Melvin



Are Non-Christians Predestined to go to Hell? For example, say a man who lived in Saudi Arabia (where Christianity is illegal to be taught) as a devout Muslim all of his life and died. Is he predestined by God to go to Hell because of the place and culture that he was born into did not allow him to be taught the Gospel?

Thanks,

The short answer is yes. And here is why. The Koran teaches that a man has two angels: one on his right shoulder, and one on his left (Sura 4:4, I think). The one on the right records all the good that the man does, and the one on his left records the bad that he does. Upon death, the judgment is based on which has the heavier weight. More good: heaven, more bad: hell. But the Koran also teaches that there is one, and only one, way to avoid those scales of justice: heroic death by maryterdom against the infidel (us). Make of that what you will. It is an undisputable fact.

[ascribe2thelord]

People in the Muslim world who live their lives to the best of their abilities in submission to the God of Islam will not be saved.

People in the Muslim world who lives their lives to the best of their abilities in submission to God are not Muslims, they're Christians. ;)

From my understanding, Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was a real person. If they cannot understand that we have a sin problem and that because of that we can never reach God of our own merits, then I don't see how they can be saved. To be saved one must believe in Jesus as the Son of God - this is what's expressly said in John 3:16-18. What he did is called substitutionary atonement - meaning that He took God's wrath for us sinners, who cannot. Unless one believes that, there is no way he or she can enter heaven.

[ascribe2thelord]

From my understanding, Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was a real person. If they cannot understand that we have a sin problem and that because of that we can never reach God of our own merits, then I don't see how they can be saved. To be saved one must believe in Jesus as the Son of God - this is what's expressly said in John 3:16-18. What he did is called substitutionary atonement - meaning that He took God's wrath for us sinners, who cannot. Unless one believes that, there is no way he or she can enter heaven.

But if you're asking, are they predestined - perhaps. I don't think it's ours to ask, though. There is legitimate questioning of God, and there is defiance. I believe the Arminians are speaking in defiance when they criticize God's soverignty over his creation.

[inchristalone221]

And I would sum up what needs to be known about election as this:

God is not obliged to give equally that which He is not obliged to give at all.

God is sovereign in the administration of His grace and love. To challenge this is to blaspheme (in my opinion, what you say is between you and God).