PDA

View Full Version : What are the main differences between Lutherans and Roman Catholics?


JasonG
21st November 2005, 03:16 PM
I'm particularly interested in the differences between the conservative synods such as LCMS and the RCs.

Do you have Eucharistic Adoration?

Veneration of saints?

What is consubstantiation compared to transubstantiation?

Do you have esteem for the early Church fathers?

Is there a sacrament of ordination?

How many sacraments do you have? Do you use incense at liturgy?

What about statutes?

Do you believe in creationism?

I probably have more, but these are just some off the top of my head.

I ask because I have been having some struggles with Catholicism. Thank you.

SPALATIN
21st November 2005, 03:31 PM
I'm particularly interested in the differences between the conservative synods such as LCMS and the RCs.

Well you have ask some rather loaded questions. I will try to answer them as best I can.

Do you have Eucharistic Adoration?

I think you will have to explain this term to me. I am not sure I understand what "Eucharistic Adoration" is from even your point of view.

Veneration of saints?

Veneration yes, worship no. By veneration I mean that we recognize the saints, but do not call on them for intercession or put them in a special place of honor.

What is consubstantiation compared to transubstantiation?

Lutherans do not believe in either. It is erroneous to say that we believe in Consubstantiation. We believe in the real presence of Christ in the Bread and Wine and believe it to be a mystery as to how it is accomplished. We do not believe in Transubstantiation either.

Do you have esteem for the early Church fathers?

Yes, Greatly. With the Holy Spirit, they were able to establish the doctrine of the church.

Is there a sacrament of ordination? We don't see "ordination" as a sacrament, but as a rite.

How many sacraments do you have? Do you use incense at liturgy?

We define a sacrament as having an visible element connected to the word of God becoming a means of Grace for those who partake. Lutherans typically have Baptism and Holy Communion. Some however, see confession/absolution as a sacrament as well because the word of God is present, but there is no visible element to connect it to.

What about statutes? Do you mean statues? Statutes are laws. Statues are visible likenesses of things or people.

Do you believe in creationism?
Do I believe in a literal 6-day creation? Yes, Indeed. With God all things are possible.

I probably have more, but these are just some off the top of my head.

I ask because I have been having some struggles with Catholicism. Thank you.

Feel free to bring them to us.

LutherNut
21st November 2005, 04:06 PM
Do you have Eucharistic Adoration?



Eucharistic Adoration is the practice of worshipping and adoring the host or the bread used in the Lord's Supper. It is placed in a special holder (the name of which I cannot remember at the moment) and is either displayed in the church or can also be carried in what is called a "Corpus Christi" (Body of Christ) procession.

To answer the question, no we do not have Eucharistic Adoration. Christ instituted the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper and has given us His very body and blood in, with, and under the elements of bread and wine to eat and to drink for the forgiveness of sins, not to worship, adore, venerate, or parade around. To do so would be a misuse of that which our Lord has given us.

Hope that helps.

Veneration of saints?

Not sure I would use the word "Venerate." We do recognize those who have gone before us as examples of the faith. We also do commemorate certain saints on specific days - St. Andrew's day is coming up on 11/30.

St. Thomas - 12/21
St. Stephen - 12/26
St. John - 12/27
Confession of St. Peter - 1/18
Conversion of St. Paul - 1/25
Sts. Timothy and Titus - 1/26
St. Martin Luther - 2/18 ;)
St. Matthias - 2/24
St. Mark - 4/28
Sts. Phillip and James - 5/1
St. Barnabas - 6/11
Sts. Peter and Paul - 6/29
St. Mary Magdalene - 7/22
St. James the Elder - 7/25
St. Laurence - 8/10
St. Mary, Mother of our Lord - 8/15
St. Bartholomew - 8/24
St. Matthew - 9/21
St. Michael and All Saints - 9/29
St. Luke - 10/18
Sts. Simon and Jude - 10/28


Jay:wave:

pjw
21st November 2005, 07:23 PM
St. Thomas - 12/21
St. Stephen - 12/26
St. John - 12/27
Confession of St. Peter - 1/18
Conversion of St. Paul - 1/25
Sts. Timothy and Titus - 1/26
St. Martin Luther - 2/18 ;)
St. Matthias - 2/24
St. Mark - 4/28
Sts. Phillip and James - 5/1
St. Barnabas - 6/11
Sts. Peter and Paul - 6/29
St. Mary Magdalene - 7/22
St. James the Elder - 7/25
St. Laurence - 8/10
St. Mary, Mother of our Lord - 8/15
St. Bartholomew - 8/24
St. Matthew - 9/21
St. Michael and All Saints - 9/29
St. Luke - 10/18
Sts. Simon and Jude - 10/28
what about St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine, St. Athanasius, St. John Chrysostom, and other important saints of the early church? how does Martin Luther get in there but these don't? and i thought St. Thomas Aquinas would have been a Lutheran saint too.

BigNorsk
21st November 2005, 08:07 PM
I'm particularly interested in the differences between the conservative synods such as LCMS and the RCs.

Do you have Eucharistic Adoration?
No, to so you do not have the Lord's Supper at all. Christ did not say here is my body parade it around and worship it, he commanded take it and eat. It is important to be faithful to the Lord's commands.

Veneration of saints?
Absolutely not at least not in the sense the Catholics use the term, we honor saints when we thank God for giving us the saints as examples of his mercy, we honor them when our faith is strengthened by the examples that show God's grace is so much greater than the sins of the saints, and lastly we honor them by imitation, they provide an example for us to emulate.

What is consubstantiation compared to transubstantiation?
Biblical? In the Bible, after the institution of the Lord's Supper, the elements are still called bread and wine, even after they are called his body and his blood. So we know the bread and the wine remain, yet we also know that they are truly his body and blood. We don't go beyond the Bible attempting to explain out of our reasoning what probably can't be explained we accept it through faith.

Do you have esteem for the early Church fathers?
Already answered under saints. Of course, but we do not make them gods.

Is there a sacrament of ordination?
Ordination is not usually regarded as a sacrament. There is ordination, and it really wouldn't be objectionable to Lutherans to call the laying on of hands in ordination a sacrament, but usually just Baptism, and Communion are seen as Sacraments with Absolution being a part of Communion. (Some argue for three with Absolution and Communion being treated separately.

How many sacraments do you have? Do you use incense at liturgy?

Sacraments pretty well handled already, perhaps as important is what are the means of grace? Lutherans see God's Word and the Sacraments as the means of grace. Even in the Sacraments, the power comes from God's Word, and is received through faith, not just by participation. Remove God's Word from a Sacrament and you have nothing.

Incense is used by some Lutherans in a few services but most congregations would use incense rarely or never.

What about statutes?

I assume you mean statues. You will see statues but not usually as prominent things. You shouldn't see Lutherans bowing down before them or praying to statues.

Do you believe in creationism?
Pretty universally, there is disagreement on whether Genesis is an actual 6 day creation or not.

I probably have more, but these are just some off the top of my head.

One major difference is that Lutherans have the salvation of the individual followed by a life of sanctification, whereas, Catholics have an enabling spark if you will, followed by theosis, with salvation as the end.

Lutherans generally do not have a works based salvation though groups have slipped into error on that at times. It's faith alone not faith plus works.

Lutherans believe all believers are priests, that there is no one between the believer and God.

And of course the Bible is the sole norm in matters of faith. That doesn't mean that Lutherans do not find value in traditions but the Bible is over tradition.


I ask because I have been having some struggles with Catholicism. Thank you.
Feel free to ask more.



Marv

Melethiel
21st November 2005, 08:58 PM
what about St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine, St. Athanasius, St. John Chrysostom, and other important saints of the early church? how does Martin Luther get in there but these don't? and i thought St. Thomas Aquinas would have been a Lutheran saint too.
They have commemoration days, but no official feast days like the ones that were posted. Thomas Aquinas? Not that I recall. :scratch:
If you're interested, Aardvark Alley (http://aardvarkalley.blogspot.com) covers pretty much all the feasts and commemorations when they come up. Just search the archives. :P

LutherNut
21st November 2005, 10:38 PM
Is there a sacrament of ordination?
Ordination is not usually regarded as a sacrament. There is ordination, and it really wouldn't be objectionable to Lutherans to call the laying on of hands in ordination a sacrament, but usually just Baptism, and Communion are seen as Sacraments with Absolution being a part of Communion. (Some argue for three with Absolution and Communion being treated separately.


Actually, Absolution is a continuation of Baptism. Our sins are forgiven in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When Absolution is pronounced,we look back to our Baptism where our sin is forgiven in the Sacrament. Each time Absolution is pronounced, it is a use of Baptism.


Jay:)

IowaLutheran
22nd November 2005, 11:35 AM
what about St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine, St. Athanasius, St. John Chrysostom, and other important saints of the early church? how does Martin Luther get in there but these don't? and i thought St. Thomas Aquinas would have been a Lutheran saint too.

I cut and pasted this from the ELCA website. In skimming through it, I believe most of the early Christian fathers you mention are on this list. I did not see Aquinas on the list. If you know much about Luther, that should not surprise you, as the medieval scholastics were not his favorite people.

Non-ELCA Lutherans would object to some of the names on this list - I'm not trying to start a discussion on that issue, I'm just indicating that we have not forgotten about the early Christian fathers you mention.


LESSER FESTIVALS AND COMMEMORATIONS
(FESTIVALS are in capitals, commemorations lower case)

January

1 THE NAME OF JESUS - White
2 Johann Konrad Wilhelm Loehe, pastor, 1872 - White
5 Kaj Munk, martyr, 1944 - Red
9 Adrian of Canterury, teacher, c. 710 - White
13 George Fox, renewer of society,1691 - White
14 Eivind Josef Berggrav, Bishop of Oslo, 1959 - White
15 Martin Luther King Jr., renewer of society, martyr, 1968 - Red
17 Antony of Egypt, renewer of the church, c. 356 - White
18 THE CONFESSION OF ST. PETER - White
Week of Prayer for Christian Unity begins
19 Henry, Bishop of Uppsala, missionary to Finland, martyr, 1156 - Red
25 THE CONVERSION OF ST. PAUL - White
Week of Prayer for Christian unity ends
26 Timothy, Titus and Silas - White
27 Lydia, Dorcas and Phoebe - White

February

2 THE PRESENTATION OF OUR LORD - White
3 Ansgar, Archbishop of Hamburg, missionary to Denmark and Sweden,
865 - White
5 The Martyrs of Japan, 1597 - Red
14 Cyril, monk, 869; Methodius, bishop, 885; missionaries to the Slavs - White
18 Martin Luther, renewer of the Church, 1546 - White
20 Rasmus Jensen, the first Lutheran pastor in North America, 1620 - White
23 Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, martyr, 156 - Red; Bartholomaeus
Ziegenbalg, missionary to India, 1719 - White
24 ST. MATTHIAS, APOSTLE - Red
25 Elizabeth Fedde, deaconess, 1921 - White

March

1 George Herbert, priest, 1633 - White
2 John Wesley, 1791; Charles Wesley, 1788; renewers of the Church - White
7 Perpetua and her companions, martyrs at Carthage, 202 - Red;
Thomas Aquinas, teacher, 1274 - White
12 Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, 604 - White
17 Patrick, bishop, missionary to Ireland, 461 - White
19 Joseph, guardian of our Lord - White
22 Jonathan Edwards, teacher, missionary to the American Indians,
1758 - White
24 Oscar Arnulfo Romero, Bishop of El Salvador, martyr, 1980 - Red
25 THE ANNUNCIATION OF OUR LORD - White
29 Hans Nielsen Hauge, renewer of the Church, 1824 - White
31 John Donne, priest, 1631 - White

April

4 Benedict the African, confessor, 1589 - White
6 Albrecht Dürer, painter, 1528; Michelangelo Buonarroti, artist, 1564 - White
9 Dietrich Bonhoeffer, teacher, 1945 - Red
10 Mikael Agricola, Bishop of Turku, 1557 - White
19 Olavus Petri, priest, 1552; Laurentius Petri, Archbishop of Uppsala, 1573;
renewers of the Church - White
21 Anselm, Archbishop of Canterbury, 1109 - White
22 DAY OF THE CREATION (Earth Day)
23 Toyohiko Kagawa, renewer of society, 1960 - White
25 ST. MARK, EVANGELIST - Red
29 Catherine of Siena, teacher, 1380 - White

May

1 ST. PHILIP AND ST. JAMES, APOSTLES, - Red
2 Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, 373 - White
4 Monica, mother of Augustine, 387 - White
8 Victor the Moor, martyr, 303 - Red
14 Pahomius, renewer of the church, 346 - White
18 Erik, King of Sweden, martyr, 1160 - Red
19 Dunstan, Archbishop of Canterbury, 988 - White
21 John Eliot, missionary to the American Indians, 1690 - White
23 Ludwig Nommensen, missionary to Sumatra, 1918 - White
24 Nicolaus Copenucus, 1543; Leonhard Euler, 1783; teachers - White
27 John Calvin, renewer of the Church, 1564 - White
29 Jiri Tranovský, hymnwriter, 1637 - White
31 THE VISITATION - White

June

1 Justin, martyr at Rome, c. 165 - Red
3 John XXIII, Bishop of Rome, 1963 - White
5 Boniface, Archbishop of Mainz, missionary to Germany, martyr, 754 - Red
7 Seattle, chief of the Duwamish Confederacy, 1866 - White
9 Columba, 597; Aidan, 651; Bede, 735; confessors - White
11 ST. BARNABAS, Apostle - Red
14 Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea, 379; Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop of
Constantinople, c. 389; Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa, c. 385; - White
21 Onesimos Nesib, translator, evangelist, 1931 - White
24 THE NATIVITY OF ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST - White
25 Presentation of the Augsburg Confession, 1530; Philipp Melanchthon,
renewer of the Church, 1560 - White
28 Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, c. 202 - White
29 ST. PETER AND ST. PAUL, APOSTLES - Red
30 Johan Olof Wallin, Archbishop of Uppsala, hymnwriter, 1839 - White

July

1 Catherine Winkworth, 1878; John Mason Neale, 1866; hymnwriters - White
6 Jan Hus, martyr, 1415 - Red
11 Benedict of Nursia, Abbot of Monte Cassino, c. 540 - White
12 Nathan Söderblom, Archbishop of Uppsala, 1931 - White
15 Vladimir, first Christian ruler of Russia, 1015; Olga, confessor, 969 - White
17 Bartolomé de Las casas, missionary to the Indies, 1566 - White
22 ST. MARY MAGDALENE - White
23 Birgitta of Sweden, 1373 - White
25 ST JAMES THE ELDER, APOSTLE - Red
28 Johann Sebastian Bach, 1750; Heinrich Schütz, 1672; George Frederick
Handel, 1759; musicians - White
29 Mary, Martha and Lazarus of Bethany - White; Olaf, King of Norway,
martyr, 1030 - Red

August

8 Dominic, priest, founder of the order of the Dominicans, 1221 - White
10 Lawrence, deacon, martyr - Red
13 Florence Nightingale, 1910; Clara Maass, 1901; renewers of society - White
15 MARY, MOTHER OF OUR LORD - White
20 Bernard, Abbot of Clairvaux, 1153 - White
24 ST BARTHOLOMEW, APOSTLE - Red
28 Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, 430; Moses the Black monk, c. 400 - White
31 John Bunyan, teacher, 1688 - White

September

2 Nikolai Frederik Severin Grundtvig, bishop, renewer of the Church,
1872 - White
4 Albert Schweitzer, missionary to Africa, 1965 - White
9 Peter Claver, priest, missiionary to Colombia, 1654 - White
13 John Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, 407 - White
14 HOLY CROSS DAY - Red
16 Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, martyr, c. 258 - Red
18 Dag Hammarskjöld, peacemaker, 1961 - White
20 Nelson Wesley Trout, bishop, 1996 - White
21 ST. MATTHEW, APOSTLE, AND EVANGELIST - Red
25 Sergius of Radonezh, Abbot of Holy Trinity, Moscow, 1392 - White
28 Jehu Jones, missionary, 1852
29 ST. MICHAEL AND ALL ANGELS - White
30 Jerome, translator, teacher, 420 - White

October

4 Francis of Assisi, renewer of the Church, 1226; Theodor Fliedner, renewer
of society, 1864 - White
6 William Tyndale, translator, martyr, 1536 - Red
7 Henry Melchior Muhlenberg, missionary to America, 1787 - White
10 Massie L. Kennard, renewer of the church, 1996 - White
15 Teresa of Jesus, teacher, renewer of the church, 1582 - White
17 Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, martyr, c. 115 - Red
18 ST. LUKE, EVANGELIST - Red
23 James of Jerusalem, martyr - Red
26 Philipp Nicolai, 1608; Johann Heermann, 1647; Paul Gerhardt, 1676;
hymnwriters - White
28 ST. SIMON AND ST. JUDE, APOSTLES - Red
31 REFORMATION DAY - Red

November

1 ALL SAINTS' DAY - White
3 Martin de Porres, renewer of society, 1639 - White
7 John Christian Frederick Heyer, missionary to India,1873 - White
11 Martin, Bishop of Tours, 397; Søren Aabye Kierkegaard, teacher,
1855 - White
17 Elizageth of Thuringia, Princess of Hungary, 1231 - White
23 Clement, Bishop of Rome, c. 100 - White; Miguel Agustin Pro, priest, martyr,
1927
25 Isaac Watts, hymnwriter, 1748 - White
30 ST. ANDREW, APOSTLE - Red

December

3 Francis Xavier, missionary to Asia, 1552 - White
6 Nicholas, Bishop of Myra, c. 342 - White
7 Ambrose, Bishop of Milan, 397 - White
11 Lars Olsen Skrefsrud, missionary to India, 1910 - White
14 John of the Cross, 1591, Teresa of Avila, 1582, renewers of the
Church, 1582 - White
16 LOS POSADAS ("The Lodgings," Mexican heritage) -
21 ST THOMAS, APOSTLE - Red
26 ST STEPHEN, DEACON AND MARTYR - Red
27 ST. JOHN, APOSTLE AND EVANGELIST - White
28 THE HOLY INNOCENTS, MARTYRS - Red

filosofer
22nd November 2005, 01:47 PM
Yes, Greatly. With the Holy Spirit, they were able to establish the doctrine of the church.


I would re-phrase this:


With the Holy Spirit, they were able to articulate doctrines in the Bible, which became standard statements of orthodox teaching.

Tetzel
22nd November 2005, 04:05 PM
what about St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius, St. Augustine, St. Athanasius, St. John Chrysostom, and other important saints of the early church? how does Martin Luther get in there but these don't? and i thought St. Thomas Aquinas would have been a Lutheran saint too.

Being a saint has nothing to do with what some guys in Rome, Constantinople, or Moscow decide. Being a saint has to do with what God decides to do through you. Technically according to Lutheran doctrine all believers are saints. Just as we are all sinners. It is only God's actions through us that lets us do anything that is not a heinous sin. We don't dwell much on the saints as because doing so can often turn into a distraction from the true source of all that is good.

JasonG
22nd November 2005, 05:22 PM
Thank you for the replies so far. Yes, I meant statues as in images. I always spell that wrong lol Another question: I've been reading on here and Luther Quest that many see the Lutheran Church particularly LCMS getting away from the confessions. Some are saying it is becoming heterodox. What do they mean by that? Is it becoming liberal or do they mean it is becoming non-liturgical and more like an evangelical independent church? Thanks.

BigNorsk
22nd November 2005, 06:09 PM
Well basically heterodox would mean that it isn't holding to the standard or orthodox (not to be confused with the Orthodox church) teachings. In effect, it is a claim that it is holding to a different confession.

Interestingly, I think it has always been taught in the LCMS that one has a responsibility to leave a heterodox church.

I would see heterodoxy as the denial of some basic truth, some essential truth. Something like the Trinity or Jesus' virgin birth. Yet some seem to apply it to almost anything they don't agree with. So I have seen it applied to the style of worship service for instance, and while I can agree that some worship services really fall down on being worship services, I personally would not see the style of worship service as warranting the idea of heterodoxy.

I've also seen it applied to anyone that doesn't hold to a literal 6 day creation, that isn't amillenial in belief and so on. It really seems to me to go a bit far, though there are certainly those who would disagree with me.

The LCMS certainly encompasses a variety of congregations, it is difficult if not impossible to believe so many churches governed under congregational policies would not vary to some if not a large degree. The great difficulty is to decide whether anyone if varying in essentials, that would be heterodoxy, some would certainly vary in nonessentials, and then there is adiaphora, areas of freedom mixed in. Many people if you ask them why they like LCMS will rattle off a list of things mostly in the adiaphora category. Often they will be telling you they really like going to a church that is very similar to a 17th century Roman Catholic European church, but without the mistakes.

I think the mainline LCMS church is very good, there are individuals and congregations that get a bit "out there" in various directions. A lot of the conflict seems to me to come from a synodical structure that makes any central government inherently weak and then complaining that the weak central government doesn't do enough to discipline others.

Marv

Qoheleth
22nd November 2005, 09:15 PM
The great difficulty is to decide whether anyone if varying in essentials, that would be heterodoxy, some would certainly vary in nonessentials, and then there is adiaphora, areas of freedom mixed in. Many people if you ask them why they like LCMS will rattle off a list of things mostly in the adiaphora category.



For sake of context...the statement below addresses the issues that many consider to be adiaphora in the Lutheran church.





Propositions concerning the Lutheran Church

1. The Augsburg Confession and those other writings assembled in the Book of Concord (1580) were initially the confession of a group of territorial churches in northern Germany.
2. These territorial churches were not merely congregations, but trans-parish entities, each united by the same administration and the same liturgy within itself, and all alike were trans-parish entities.
3. These territorial churches did not understand themselves as a new denomination, but as the continuation of the catholic Church in the west.
4. They intended their writings to be understood as an unalterable confession of faith, with which they would stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
5. These confessional writings constituted them as a living, organic entity (i.e. not merely as a corporation) and were, therefore, essential to the churches of the Augsburg Confession as their principle of unity. (To develop this point a bit: the principle of unity in Rome is the papacy. The principle of unity in the Pentecostal churches is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Other features may change, but the principle of unity is essential to each body and may not be changed without the body's being essentially changed. Remove the papacy, and Rome is no longer Rome. Remove the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and pentecostalism is no longer Pentecostalism.)

Propositions concerning change
6. There are two sorts of change: accidental and essential.
7. Accidental change occurs when a thing is modified, yet remains what it was before. For example, when someone paints a blue chair red, it changes (color), yet it remains what it was (a chair).
8. Accidental change occurs to living entities when they grow, move, or alter in any way which still allows one to say, "It remains what it was."
9. Essential change occurs when a thing is modified in such a way that it no longer is what it was before. For example, when a chair is run over by a steamroller, it is no longer a chair, but a pile of wood, or metal, or plastic.
10. Essential change occurs to living entities when they change in such a way that one can no longer say, "It remains what it was." For example, a human being changes into a corpse at death, or (if it were possible) the humans making up Frankenstein's monster were essentially changed when they were sewn together to make the monster.
11. It is not necessary fully to know or to understand the circumstances of a substantial change in order to affirm that such a change has taken place. All that needs to happen is to show that what was essential to the being of a thing has altered.
12. In the case of a living being which appears to have undergone substantial change (i.e. death), charity requires us to make efforts to restore quickly what was lost.
13. There comes a time when those making such efforts recognize that the patient has died.


Propositions applying the latter to the former


14. The churches of the Augsburg Confession have changed since the Book of Concord was adopted.
15. Some of those changes have been accidental: they grew, they moved etc.
16. Some of those changes have been essential--i.e. the principle of unity (the Lutheran Confessions) no longer describes any existing trans-parish entity.


a. Lutheran Confessions: "Churches" of the Augsburg Confession refers to trans-parish entities, i.e. territorial churches. Today: "Churches" refers to congregations.


b. Lutheran Confessions: The true body and blood of Christ are present under the bread and wine. Today: Grape juice is offered in many places as an alternative.


c. Lutheran Confessions (on real presence): Luther excommunicates a pastor who mixes consecrated wine with unconsecrated following the service. Today: plastic disposable cups are used widely, tossed out unwashed after the service.


d. Lutheran Confessions: Private confession ought to be retained. Practiced as the norm. No one is admitted to the Sacrament unless he is first examined and absolved. Today: Private confession scarcely exists; in most parishes, not at all, in some parishes, just barely. Open communion the norm.


e. Lutheran Confessions: Only those rightly/ritely called should administer the sacraments and preach. Today: Unordained laity do both.


f. Lutheran Confessions: The traditional usages of the Church *ought* to be observed, which may be observed without sin. Uniformity of liturgy within territorial churches (i.e. not merely a parish-by-parish decision). Today: The traditional usages of the Church *need not* be observed (nb "ought" and "need not" are logically contradictory).


g. Lutheran Confessions: The Mass (i.e. the historic liturgy) is maintained, observed with greatest reverence, and ceremonies exist to teach the unlearned. Today: The Mass is not maintained, reverence is discouraged by creative services (do, by the way, check out Dave Anderson's website with its suggested "Super Bowl service" and "Fourth of July service"), and ceremonies are instituted to entertain the bored.
h. Lutheran Confessions: The right to excommunicate belongs by divine right (a very strong phrase!) to the pastoral office, and the people are bound by divine right to follow them. Today: the right to excommunicate belongs by divine right to the congregation, and the pastors are bound by divine right to announce such excommunications.


I. Let me add another, from my own experience. I was a doctrinal reviewer for the new hymnal (now I won't be one much longer, when this gets to the eyes of others--but I digress). In reviewing the baptismal rite, I suggested that we ought to use Luther's 1526 baptismal rite as a paradigm of what constitutes a baptism from a Lutheran point of view. No-brainer, right? After all, that rite is even included in some editions of the BOC. I was overruled, and it was said that the 1526 rite carries NO normative significance for the Lutheran Church.


j. Lutheran Confessions: Mary is and remains a virgin after Christ's birth (FCSD 8.24, added by Chemnitz to reject the Reformed Peter Martyr Vermigli's denial of the semper virgo). Today: the semper virgo is at best a pious opinion.


k. Lutheran Confessions: the Scripture principle ("The Word of God alone shall establish articles of faith") is maintained in tension with the catholic principle ("In doctrine and ceremonies, we have received nothing new against Scripture OR the catholic church"). These two principles are not, of course, two "sources" of doctrine. Today: the catholic principle is gone.


17. In some cases, these aberrations can be dated, and the scope of their acceptance be fixed--e.g. the abandonment of AC 14 happened in the LCMS in 1989. In other cases, these aberrations cannot be dated, and the scope of their acceptance cannot be fixed. But it is not necessary to explain *how* a thing dies in order to affirm *that* it died. We bury people without autopsies all the time.


18. Efforts to change these aberrations and return to the teaching of the Confessions have proved fruitless. The time has come to check the clock, note the time, and call the morgue.

Conclusion:
19. The doctrine of the Lutheran Confessions in its fullness is the principle of unity for the churches of the Augsburg Confession, and hence is essential for their existence.
20. There exists no trans-parish Lutheran entity which maintains the doctrine of the Lutheran Confessions in its fulness.
21. In the sense that the Confessors understood themselves as 'church'--i.e. a trans-parish entity united by a common confession--There is no Lutheran Church.


Q

pjw
22nd November 2005, 10:06 PM
Thomas Aquinas, teacher, 1274 - White
:)