Do ELCA Lutherans believe in Jesus as the only way

[BethMae]

Hello, all you ELCA Lutherans. I have a question. My dad is a LCMS Pastor and recently told me that ELCA Lutherans do not believe that a belief in Jesus is the only way to heaven. Is this true? Do you believe that there is more than one way to heaven?

Thanks for answering :-)
Beth Mae :confused:

[BethMae]

Bump

[cableguy]

First time I heard that one.

[FriarTuck]

I believe we defer to Ephesians By faith alone are you saved and not by works so that none may boast

[AngelusSax]

Absolutely not. The ELCA does not hold that there is salvation outside of Christ. There may be salvation outside of our denomination, but not outside of Christ.

Christ is THE way, not A way.

[BethMae]

good, that's what i thought, my dad is sort of like that.

[AngelusSax]

Hey, no problem, we run into that kind of thing often.

I myself have been labeled everything from a heretic to an apostate over communion alone, let alone other issues where I am in disagreement with the LCMS. I do not think they are unsaved, but I've had some (not on these forums) imply that I wasn't.....

[KagomeShuko]

Yep, salvation is through Christ. It's in the Bible. We certainly do NOT have the belief that there are other wasy to salvation. You'll hear a lot of stuff said along the lines of "we don't know" because we don't know how God works with others, but we don't believe there's salvation outside of Christ.

Angelus, I've been called so many things, it's pathetic. I've been told I'm a devil worshipper. I've been told I'm not saved. I've been todl that my baptism is void. I've been indirectly told that I'm not in God's grace (from discussing the communion issue).

Of course, we believe that the LCMS people are in God's grace as they believe in salvation through Christ. We just don't agree with their stances on many issues.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[AngelusSax]

:hug:

Have a hug from me, Bridget. From one "unsaved" to another. ;)

[BethMae]

Well, how about this, does the ELCA have an official stance on gays in the church? (not judging, just asking)

[AngelusSax]

As of now, the stance is that gays are welcome inasmuch as any other sinner is welcome in church. Any openly practicing homosexual is not allowed to be a pastor at this point, since that was voted against very recently. The official stance, however, is that no person may be in the clergy who is having sexual relations unless they are legally married.

Now, individual congregations, I have heard, have had homosexual pastors. I don't know if they were celibate or not. But reprimands aren't brought up unless by the congregation immediately involved.

I think that's basically where we're at.

But the issue isn't going away. We might have something different in a few years. A lot will probably depend on if homosexual marriage is made legal by the states or not, on how soon it comes back up. Right now, only married pastors may have sex, and only with their spouse, so no legal homosexual marriages means that practicing homosexuals violate the rules by default, not being married.

[Willy]

I'm not sure that this is the right way to put the question. The Gospel of John testifies that Jesus is the way to the Father. By that John did not mean that belief in Jesus is the means for getting the good goods in the next life. He meant that Jesus reveals God, something that matters deeply for this life. I believe that Jesus does indeed reveal what we mean when we say God. That does not mean that somehow I need to condemn others to an eternity in a place called "hell" if for some reason they don't focus their lives around Jesus. I think we need to go deeper in exploring what we mean when we say "salvation." Salvation, Biblically, is not about a transport to the next life. Salvation is about healing.

[FriarTuck]

uh oh spaghetios.....

[Phoebe]

If you want to know anything about the "official" stance on most any topic, you can try:
www.elca.org (http://www.elca.org)
I, personally, don't believe that a practicing homosexual should be ordained. I get the impression that my pastor does not feel the way that I do. Shoot, I'm not sold on women being in the clergy if they are pastoring men. (If a woman is a minister for just/all women and children... that's another story)

[BethMae]

If you want to know anything about the "official" stance on most any topic, you can try:
www.elca.org (http://www.elca.org)
I, personally, don't believe that a practicing homosexual should be ordained. I get the impression that my pastor does not feel the way that I do. Shoot, I'm not sold on women being in the clergy if they are pastoring men. (If a woman is a minister for just/all women and children... that's another story)

Do you believe that a man who is divorced should be allowed to become a pastor?

I Corinthians 7:10-11

To the married couples, the Lord commands, that the wife must not leave her husband; and in case she does separate, she must either stay single or make up with her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Why do we cling to some parts of the bible, like women not being allowed to teach men, and ignore others, like the above passage? Is it that we only have to follow the parts of the bible we agree with?

[FriarTuck]

Actually that's not something the ELCA clings to. Right or wrong we ordain women.

by right or wrong I mean oppinions vary.Obviously there's only one opinion that counts but I don't have a problem with it

[KagomeShuko]

I'm not sure that this is the right way to put the question. The Gospel of John testifies that Jesus is the way to the Father. By that John did not mean that belief in Jesus is the means for getting the good goods in the next life. He meant that Jesus reveals God, something that matters deeply for this life. I believe that Jesus does indeed reveal what we mean when we say God. That does not mean that somehow I need to condemn others to an eternity in a place called "hell" if for some reason they don't focus their lives around Jesus. I think we need to go deeper in exploring what we mean when we say "salvation." Salvation, Biblically, is not about a transport to the next life. Salvation is about healing.

Could you provide Biblical evidence for this last statement? I read my Bible, and sure there's healing, but I certainly have never found that "salvation is about healing" in my Bible. Where is this?

[KagomeShuko]

Pheboe,

I'm in support of women in ministry, and I'm not sure about ordaining practicing homosexuals, but I'm not one to say that God couldn't use them. I'm always surprised that God uses me.

Beth, while I see what you are saying, I know that I am evangelical which means that I go by the Gospels. The other books of the Bible are letters to churches and I do believe they are the inspired word of God, but I think it is important to know the context of where and why they were written and not to take one verse and apply it to every single situation - rather to read everything in the passage/chapter/book to understand.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

'

[Willy]

Could you provide Biblical evidence for this last statement? I read my Bible, and sure there's healing, but I certainly have never found that "salvation is about healing" in my Bible. Where is this?
Look at Luke's story of the Samaritan leper who came back to thank Jesus for the healing (17th chapter). The story says that Jesus tells the man "Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well." Other translations will say "has saved you." The word to be made well is the same word for salvation. Note that the word salvation is related to the word salve. Salves make things heal. The man was saved, that is, made well. It's interesting to note that all the other lepers were cured of their leprosy. Only the one who comes back to give thanks is said to be saved (made well). Gratitude is a part of what salvation or healing means for our lives.

[cableguy]

Beth, while I see what you are saying, I know that I am evangelical which means that I go by the Gospels. The other books of the Bible are letters to churches and I do believe they are the inspired word of God, but I think it is important to know the context of where and why they were written and not to take one verse and apply it to every single situation - rather to read everything in the passage/chapter/book to understand.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

'

So that applies to Romans as well?

[BethMae]

Actually that's not something the ELCA clings to. Right or wrong we ordain women.

by right or wrong I mean oppinions vary.Obviously there's only one opinion that counts but I don't have a problem with it

Friar Tuck

I was addressing Phoebe, who had said she doesn't agree with women teaching men. BUT the question is not about ordaining women, it's about how we decide which parts of the bible we will ignore and which we will embrace. I am confused...:confused: not judging, just asking questions.

[cableguy]

Friar Tuck

I was addressing Phoebe, who had said she doesn't agree with women teaching men. BUT the question is not about ordaining women, it's about how we decide which parts of the bible we will ignore and which we will embrace. I am confused...:confused: not judging, just asking questions.

Have you not heard? We here in the ELCA pick and choose.

[FriarTuck]

Bethmae, you asked why WE cling to no women teaching men. I understood it in the context it was asked. I just wanted to clarify the fact that WE don't believe or cling to that particular thinking. This is an ELCA subforum. As to your question I don't know why. I haven't finished reading the bible (I'm working on it) and I haven't read the Book of Concord (I'm asking for it, for Christmass). Hopefully when I do finish reading those two I'll have a greater understanding. Till then I'll defer to those with a greater depth of knowledge.

Peace be with you

[sculpturegirl]

I know some ELCAers who think that Christ is just ONE way to God, but not the only way. The official position is the Biblical one "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me" which I would stand on.

[mmckeen]

I know some ELCAers who think that Christ is just ONE way to God, but not the only way. The official position is the Biblical one "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me" which I would stand on.

That is the way it is in the ELCA church were I attend (or I should say attended) presents it. I am changing and this is one of the reasons. I have been told to be more inclusive and more "progressive" in my thinking. That all roads (beliefs) lead to heaven. I was being too "intolerant" to think otherwise.

Oh .... and the Bible is a human invention....full of mistakes and mistruths because of that. If we could just "love one another" then they rest of the Bible is just "commentary".

:scratch:

[Protoevangel]

That is the way it is in the ELCA church were I attend (or I should say attended) presents it. I am changing and this is one of the reasons. I have been told to be more inclusive and more "progressive" in my thinking. That all roads (beliefs) lead to heaven. I was being too "intolerant" to think otherwise.

Oh .... and the Bible is a human invention....full of mistakes and mistruths because of that. If we could just "love one another" then they rest of the Bible is just "commentary".

:scratch:
The pastor,at the ELCA church I used to attend taught much the same. He rarely spoke about it openly (usually just subtle hints here and there), but was known to distribure literature declaring that all religions lead to Heaven. In our correspondence, he has inadvertently revealed himself as not just a religious relativist, but a universalist. From what I hear (I have not verified by personal correspondance,) this is shared by at least two other ELCA pastors I know of in the Vancouver, Washington area. One of which is open about it to the point of stating his universalist beliefs assertively in his church's newsletter.

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

I think it is impossible with the ELCA to generalize. Obviously, the ELCA does take stances on several topics, but in the end-for better or for worse-they like to opperate on a congregation to congregation basis. Ineed, perhaps even a person to person basis on some issues. This can be seen as a lack of unity, or a great unity (that is, being united amidst our differences). But what it allows is for the ELCA to be bashed by anyone remotely "conservative" because they can will generalize on many issues. As seen by the previous threads, some pastors teach different things on Christ as the only our or just "our way", others hold different views on the ministry of homosexuals and women. What I think is going on with your initial statement that your dad an LCMS pastor saying these things is because they will hear it once and attach it to the whole body of our denomination. I've heard that the ELCA denies the trinity and the divinity of Christ, between how diverse (and therefore, how liberal) the ELCA can be and-I think- various feelings regarding us because of our formation (things like seminex) and some of our more public stances, other churches (lutherans especially) like to target us. But I think you'll find that a good amount of the "radical" and "heretical" things the ELCA is charged with a good majority doesn't believeor teach at all. But when someone is looking for ammunation agaisnt it, if one ELCA theologian/pastor said it, we all believe it.
In the LCMS and WELS defense though, I think that is not just because of rough relations and the fact that they are seeking to find faults with us. But also it's a different structure than their church bodies. Though on some issues (mainly ecumenical) the LCMS is split in their stances, for the most part they hold to a narrow set of beliefs that don't range nearly as greatly as you could expect to see in the ELCA, so to them, they could easily I think conceive that since in their bodies, their is a strong concensus on stances and theologies (and if you oppose those you will be publicly challenged, I've had a LCMS Professor of mine been charged with heresy for writing a document that suggests the possiblity of the earth not being created in six days). So if they do not have any means of understanding exactly how diverse and internally different the ELCA is (although, those who do criticize the ELCA for that), then they will try to understand us in relation to their own experience, in which if some theologian makes a statement (like Christ isn't the only way to the father) and that statement isn't formally challenged by the ELCA (or not publicly enough) then they will likely (and within their realm of knowledge, understandably) think that the ELCA as a whole believes this.
Thanks for the question, I hope this forum helps build bridges and trample ignorance. The peace of the Lord be with you!

[Protoevangel]

<snip>
...In the LCMS and WELS defense though, I think that is not just because of rough relations and the fact that they are seeking to find faults with us. But also...
<snip>
...So if they do not have any means of understanding exactly how diverse and internally different the ELCA is (although, those who do criticize the ELCA for that), then they will try to understand us in relation to their own experience...
<snip>
Thanks for the question, I hope this forum helps build bridges and trample ignorance. The peace of the Lord be with you!
Funny, but you are the only person so far to point any fingers or generalize another group. Now there's a good way to build bridges. :thumbsup:

But I'm not ELCA anymore, so I'll just back quietly out and let you keep on being "not ignorant."

[stumpjumper]

The position that is most consistent with good ELCA theology, current theologians like Braaten included, is that the way, the truth, and the life, run through Jesus Christ but is not neccesarily limited to Baptised Christians....

As a Christian one cannot view other religions as salvific (in that one is saved by adherence to other religions or by works) but one should not ever limit the extent of God's grace...

Less you be pulling the Tares before the harvest....

Maybe it's all wheat :)

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Funny, but you are the only person so far to point any fingers or generalize another group. Now there's a good way to build bridges. :thumbsup:

But I'm not ELCA anymore, so I'll just back quietly out and let you keep on being "not ignorant."
Actually, the entire post had to do with someone else pointing a finger at the ELCA. But if you feel I'm generalizing too much I apologize, since I'm no longer LCMS I'll back out quietly. I'm just stating my experiences within it. So I'm not sure if that's being ignorant, since I have been a part of their system (well, the LCMS at least, so you could argue I;m being ignorant of WELS), after all, ignorance suggests you have no knowledge on the other side. But if you feel I am generalizing too much, I do apologize. Since you bolded the comment I made about searching for faults, I'll also assume you're speaking to that area. That I could see for sure as an overgeneralization on a congregation to congregation basis, but not on a synnod wide one. After all, look at what happened with LBW, and statements they made about WOV. But the point of this thread yes was I think to clear generalizations, so if you still think I'm overgeneralizing, please say so, so that ignorance may be trampled and bridges built. Unless that's not what you want?
The peace of the Lord be with you.

[Tetzel]

Hello, all you ELCA Lutherans. I have a question. My dad is a LCMS Pastor and recently told me that ELCA Lutherans do not believe that a belief in Jesus is the only way to heaven. Is this true? Do you believe that there is more than one way to heaven?

Thanks for answering :-)
Beth Mae :confused:

When I was in the ELCA, nobody told me that there was any other way to salvation than Jesus Christ.

[Protoevangel]

Actually, the entire post had to do with someone else pointing a finger at the ELCA.
True, the OP's father was making some unfair assumptions. But the fact of the matter is, no one in the thread had made any generalizations about another group until you chose to point at the LCMS and WELS. I was a little cynical in my reply to you, however, so I do apologize for that.

But if you feel I'm generalizing too much I apologize, since I'm no longer LCMS I'll back out quietly. I'm just stating my experiences within it. So I'm not sure if that's being ignorant, since I have been a part of their system (well, the LCMS at least, so you could argue I;m being ignorant of WELS), after all, ignorance suggests you have no knowledge on the other side. But if you feel I am generalizing too much, I do apologize.
I'm not sure the "offence" was so grevious to require an apology, ;) but when talking about generalizing others, we should all watch out for that proverbal beam/speck. I know I'm guilty of doing the same. I hope for brothers and sisters to help keep me in line too; I can't do it all by myself.

Since you bolded the comment I made about searching for faults, I'll also assume you're speaking to that area. That I could see for sure as an overgeneralization on a congregation to congregation basis, but not on a synnod wide one. After all, look at what happened with LBW, and statements they made about WOV. But the point of this thread yes was I think to clear generalizations, so if you still think I'm overgeneralizing, please say so, so that ignorance may be trampled and bridges built.
I havn't read any official documents about WOV or LBW from the WELS, so I can't speak to that.

On the other hand, the official statement from the LCMS about WOV have been directed only at specifics of the hymnal, not at the ELCA in a general way: (Here is the official statement (http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=3727)). I do know that the LCMS did republish its own revision of LBW in 82, but I am unaware of any official blanket statements against the LCMS because of it. Of course, I could be wrong, but I see no evidence of the ELCA being bashed in any corporate manner attributable to the LCMS in general. Sure, you can point to individuals who do "bash" the ELCA, but attributing that to the LCMS (or WELS) in a blanket manner is just as unfair as saying the ELCA (as a whole) rejects Jesus as the sole path for Salvation, because some pastors and laypeople do.

Unless that's not what you want?
May it never be so.

The peace of the Lord be with you.
And also with you.

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

True, the OP's father was making some unfair assumptions. But the fact of the matter is, no one in the thread had made any generalizations about another group until you chose to point at the LCMS and WELS. I was a little cynical in my reply to you, however, so I do apologize for that.


I'm not sure the "offence" was so grevious to require an apology, ;) but when talking about generalizing others, we should all watch out for that proverbal beam/speck. I know I'm guilty of doing the same. I hope for brothers and sisters to help keep me in line too; I can't do it all by myself.


I havn't read any official documents about WOV or LBW from the WELS, so I can't speak to that.

On the other hand, the official statement from the LCMS about WOV have been directed only at specifics of the hymnal, not at the ELCA in a general way: (Here is the official statement (http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=3727)). I do know that the LCMS did republish its own revision of LBW in 82, but I am unaware of any official blanket statements against the LCMS because of it. Of course, I could be wrong, but I see no evidence of the ELCA being bashed in any corporate manner attributable to the LCMS in general. Sure, you can point to individuals who do "bash" the ELCA, but attributing that to the LCMS (or WELS) in a blanket manner is just as unfair as saying the ELCA (as a whole) rejects Jesus as the sole path for Salvation, because some pastors and laypeople do.


May it never be so.


And also with you.
I'm glad things were clarified, I too do not wish to be overgeneralizing again. So still, please forgive me if it came out that way. thanks.

[Protoevangel]

I'm glad things were clarified, I too do not wish to be overgeneralizing again. So still, please forgive me if it came out that way. thanks.
We're good, brother. :hug:

[Willy]

Again I would urge people to do more Biblical work on "salvation" or on the "reign of God" (Matthew, Mark, Luke) or eternal life (John). These terms aren't about tickets to the next life. We need to go deeper.