Christians enslave their own children through ignorance of the law

[tomedward]

Christians ensnare their own children through ignorance of the law and the deceptive practices of those who they elect to rule over them. If you don't own the fruits of your own labor, you are NOT free, you are a slave.

No one is required to obtain an SSN

If you wish to ask someone from the government about this fact, let me demonstrate how you will be lied to by the same person. Look at this response from SSA in a letter to Mr. Scott McDonald dated March 18, 1998 from Charles Mullen, Associate Commissioner, Office of Public Inquiries, Social Security Administration:

"The Social Security Act does not require a person to have a Social Security Number (SSN) to live and work in the United States, nor does it require an SSN simply for the purpose of having one. However, if someone works without an SSN, we cannot properly credit the earnings for the work performed."

Now, it would appear from even a basic understanding of the English language that what Mr. Mullen said is this: No one is required to have an SSN to either live or work in the United States. If that person does not have this number but does work, no social security taxes would be taken out of their paycheck and there would be no credit ledger entry made in their name for taxes paid.

One would think this is quite plain and clear. However, let's look at another letter from the same Charles Mullen about one month earlier (February 24, 1998) addressed to me: "People cannot voluntarily end their participation in the program [SS]. The payment of social security taxes is mandatory, regardless of the citizenship or place of residence of either the employer or the employee. Unless specifically exempted by law, everyone working in the United States is required to pay Social Security taxes."



Now, I ask you: If obtaining an SSN is voluntary, how is it that this tax then becomes mandatory? Since when is it legal to force any American to join a voluntary "insurance" plan that is in reality nothing but another tax - especially when an individual must apply for a number that puts them into this taxing system?

An even bigger question: Am I even eligible to obtain this number? This is a very important legal question that seldom is raised about Title 42, the so-called "The Federal Old-Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance Benefits Program." After a thorough review of Section 405, it would appear there are only certain classifications of individuals who are legally eligible to apply. To be specific, see:

42 U.S.C. Section 405(c)(2)(B):

"(B)(i) In carrying out the Commissioner's duties under subparagraph (A) and subparagraph (F), the Commissioner of Social Security shall take affirmative measures to assure that social security account numbers will, to the maximum extent practicable, be assigned to all members of appropriate groups or categories of individuals by assigning such numbers (or ascertaining that such numbers have already been assigned);

"(I) to aliens at the time of their lawful admission to the United States either for permanent residence or under other authority of law permitting them to engage in employment in the United States and to other aliens at such time as their status is so changed as to make it lawful for them to engage in such employment;

"(II) to any individual who is an applicant for or recipient of benefits under any program financed in whole or in part from Federal funds including any child on whose behalf such benefits are claimed by another person; and

"(III) to any other individual when it appears that he could have been but was not assigned an account number under the provisions of sub clauses (I) or (II) but only after such investigation as is necessary to establish to the satisfaction of the Commissioner of Social Security, the identity of such individual, the fact that an account number has not already been assigned to such individual, and the fact that such individual is a citizen or a noncitizen who is not, because of his alien status, prohibited from engaging in employment; and, in carrying out such duties, the Commissioner of Social Security is authorized to take affirmative measures to assure the issuance of social security numbers;

"(IV) to or on behalf of children who are below school age at the request of their parents or guardians; and

"(V) to children of school age at the time of their first enrollment in school." We find more government lie-speak and the obligation or duty to apply for and obtain a Social Security card or number at 20 C.F.R., section 422.103 (2002):

"(b) Applying for a number. (1) Form SS-5. An individual needing a social security number may apply for one by filing a signed Form SS-5, 'Application for a Social Security Card,' at any social security office and submitting the required evidence...

"(2) Birth Registration Document. The Social Security Administration (SSA) may enter into an agreement with officials of a state...to establish, as part of the official birth registration process, a procedure to assist SSA in assigning social security numbers to newborn children. Where an agreement is in effect, a parent, as part of the official birth registration process, need not complete a Form SS-5 and may request that SSA assign a social security number to the newborn child.

Another (2): "(2) Request on birth registration document. Where a parent has requested a social security number for a newborn child as part of an official birth registration process described in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, the State vital statistics office will electronically transmit the request to SSA's central office....Using this information, SSA will assign a number to the child and send the social security number card to the child at the mother's address."

Today, parents are being forced at hospitals all across this country to fill out documentation to obtain an SSN for their baby before they are "allowed" to take their newborn home. What an outrage! [If you don't apply will they keep your baby ? ]Every American has the right to be fully informed of the law and the consequences of entering into any agreement that binds them to a government program. Forcing a newborn, incapable of understanding anything other than life giving functions such as food and a clean diaper, or a teenager to enter into a supposedly lifetime voluntary taxing program for which they have no understanding, is reprehensible and flies in the face of all the principles of freedom and free choice that this nation was founded upon. http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd27.htm

[JPPT1974]

The children become the way that they are as adults.
By learning their parents' mannerisms and actions and words.
It says a lot about their parents.
On how and what the children grow up as.
Either good or bad due to their moms and dads.

[ZiSunka]

Are you selling something Tom? How does this thread relate to Baptists/Anabaptists?

[arunma]

You know, the Bible says that we should pay taxes to the government. Perhaps it's better to obey the spirit of the law rather than the letter.

[mesue]

Christians ensnare their own children through ignorance of the law and the deceptive practices of those who they elect to rule over them. If you don't own the fruits of your own labor, you are NOT free, you are a slave.

...

I didn't bother reading this. God is bigger and God is in control.
Big deal, my kids have a SSN, so what? Oooooo, they can get a job! Just like their hard working law abiding parents who pay their taxes as they should to honor God.
Matthew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

This includes paying taxes.

[arunma]

This includes paying taxes.

It is noteworthy that the person who wrote that ended up getting his head chopped off by the government. So clearly, the command to obey the government does not have a "as long as the government is fair" proviso. Even if there is a legal loophole to get around social security tax (which is the issue, here), we should probably pay it anyway.

[mesue]

It is noteworthy that the person who wrote that ended up getting his head chopped off by the government. So clearly, the command to obey the government does not have a "as long as the government is fair" proviso. Even if there is a legal loophole to get around social security tax (which is the issue, here), we should probably pay it anyway.
:scratch: Who wrote what? Jesus or Paul? or the OP? Although, I have to admit that it would be hard to write a post with one's head cut off. I still remain confused. :o sorry :blush:

[arunma]

:scratch: Who wrote what? Jesus or Paul? or the OP? Although, I have to admit that it would be hard to write a post with one's head cut off. I still remain confused. :o sorry :blush:

No one wrote anything about the "as long as the government is fair" proviso. But it seemed to me like that's what the OP implied. He's trying to convince us that it's OK to take advantage of legal loopholes so as to not pay what we owe the government. All I'm trying to say is that Paul and Peter told us to obey the government at a time when the government was wicked, idolatrous, and pagan. Whether America is wicked I will not address, but it certainly isn't idolatrous or pagan. Everyone here knows that I'm not big on patriotism. But seeing as how Uncle Sam isn't burning down churches and crucifying disciples, I think it's fair enough that we should pay our social security tax.

Sorry if my last post was confusing, but I hope I've cleared it up.

[tomedward]

Are you selling something Tom? How does this thread relate to Baptists/Anabaptists?

No lambslove. The truth is freely given. Anyone who loves Jesus loves truth and hates deception. That is how this thread relates to all followers of Christ, including Baptists. There are only two possiblities, either participation in SS is mandatory or voluntary. The point I am trying to make is that participation is not required by the law. Can you prove me wrong ? And if I am correct why would any family want to enslave their children with such a burdensome obligation to another master knowing full well that the SS system is bankrupt and destined for failure ? I will give you all of my 672 blessings if you provide for me any law that requires mandatory participation in the SS system.

[tomedward]

You know, the Bible says that we should pay taxes to the government. Perhaps it's better to obey the spirit of the law rather than the letter.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

I don't recall Jesus ever teaching that we are to render unto Caesar the things that belong to God , do you ? If you have been redeemed by Jesus the Christ who do you belong to, Caesar or God ? You can't belong to both now can you, for no man can serve two masters.
Furthermore if no law requires mandatory participation, I do recall Paul's teaching in Romans 13:7, "Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."
Nothing is due if it is not required by the law. It should be a simple matter to discredit me by simply producing the law that makes any such requirement. I will be waiting.

[tomedward]

I didn't bother reading this. God is bigger and God is in control.
Big deal, my kids have a SSN, so what? Oooooo, they can get a job! Just like their hard working law abiding parents who pay their taxes as they should to honor God.


This includes paying taxes.

Are you admitting that you or your children can not buy or sell without a number ?

Also you are implying that I am not law abiding. Unless you can prove me wrong by producing the law that requires mandatory particpation in SS I will consider your implication a false accusation.

Does one honor God by praying (making application) to the SS system to meet their needs instead of trusting God to meet them ?

[tomedward]

It is noteworthy that the person who wrote that ended up getting his head chopped off by the government. So clearly, the command to obey the government does not have a "as long as the government is fair" proviso. Even if there is a legal loophole to get around social security tax (which is the issue, here), we should probably pay it anyway.

There is no need for a legal loophole when the law requires nothing of you.
I suppose when the government requires the mark of the beast, (as if they haven't already "required" "a" mark of "a" beast), there will be many who profess the misinterpretation of Romans 13 that says, "We must obey."

Romans 13 may not have the proviso "as long as the government is fair" but it does say that "He (whoever the higher powers may be) is a minister of God unto thee for good." That seems to be a qualifier wouldn't you say ? Does a minister of God unto thee for good make legal the killing of babies ? Covet his neighbors goods ? (income tax, state tax, property tax). Legislate gambling lotteries ? Perpetuate public schools wherein God is not allowed and lie to it's chattel concerning the voluntary nature of the Social Security system ?

Does Romans 13 teach that those who rule are excluded from the Law of God ?

[tomedward]

No one wrote anything about the "as long as the government is fair" proviso. But it seemed to me like that's what the OP implied. He's trying to convince us that it's OK to take advantage of legal loopholes so as to not pay what we owe the government. All I'm trying to say is that Paul and Peter told us to obey the government at a time when the government was wicked, idolatrous, and pagan. Whether America is wicked I will not address, but it certainly isn't idolatrous or pagan. Everyone here knows that I'm not big on patriotism. But seeing as how Uncle Sam isn't burning down churches and crucifying disciples, I think it's fair enough that we should pay our social security tax.

Sorry if my last post was confusing, but I hope I've cleared it up.

Uncle Sam doesn't need to burn down churches. He owns them !

Corporations are created by the State and the State controls that which it creates. Hence the preaching of a Romans 13 blanket obedience to whatever the government demands or they will lose their coveted 501(c)(3) status without which donations will no longer be a tax write off........Uh oh !:cry:

You obviously misunderstand the OP ! My contention is that no law requires SS participation. It says nothing about finding and taking advantage of loopholes.

Not that I'm interested at all in loopholes but you made an interesting statement, "He's trying to convince us that it's OK to take advantage of legal loopholes so as to not pay what we owe the government."
Then in your opinion it is NOT okay to take advantage of LEGAL loopholes ? Ever heard of H&R Block ? :scratch:

[arunma]

Are you admitting that you or your children can not buy or sell without a number ?

Oh dear...

OK, let me start off with this short prologue. I am not a patriot. I don't think that America is a great country, that it was founded on Christian principles, or that it especially loved by God our Father, and I think that the Constitution is a human-exhalting, atheistic document which encourages the slave trade. I say this not because I enjoy bashing the country of my birth, but to remind you that if I happen to say something nice about the United States, it isn't because I have a patriotic agenda to defend.

America isn't an especially unrighteous nation. All humans are depraved, but if one were to rate the nations of the world by their wickedness, America certainly wouldn't be near the top. In fact, I've always thought that we American Christians are spoiled. It's relatively easy to be a law-abiding citizen without compromising one's belief in the Lordship of Christ Jesus.

But please remember the context in which Paul and Peter told us to obey the government. At this time, pagan Rome poisoned the world with its state religion of Caesar-worship. The Romans encouraged people to turn aside from the living God and to worship images of gold and marble. The same government that put the Son of God to death now illegalized Christianity and persecuted the church. Yet the Apostles teach us to obey the government, not for its own sake, but for the sake of the Lord. Early Christians displayed their faith by other means. The Christians refused to attend the games at the Colosseum, to worship in the temples of false idols, or to say kaisar kurios ("Caesar is Lord"). Yet they honored Caesar's authority and payed their taxes.

Peter the Apostle referred to pagan Rome as Babylon, which is a direct reference to the same Babylon which held Israel in captivity. John the Apostle used Rome (which he also called Babylon) to symbolize God's overthrow and destruction of the wicked nations of the world. In short, Rome was utterly depraved and sinful. Despite that, our ancestors were told to obey the state. So how much more should we obey a state which doesn't require us to worship images of false gods.

What I'm trying to tell you is that America isn't really all that bad. There is no reason for us to jump to the conclusion that it is the government of the antichrist. In fact, not all Christians agree with the eschatology that one single government will arise in the end times under the authority of Satan. I tend to think that since Satan is already the god of this world, it isn't necessary for all of the nations of the earth to be unified under one government to fulfill Biblical prophecy.

[Joykins]

Are you admitting that you or your children can not buy or sell without a number ?

Also you are implying that I am not law abiding. Unless you can prove me wrong by producing the law that requires mandatory particpation in SS I will consider your implication a false accusation.

Does one honor God by praying (making application) to the SS system to meet their needs instead of trusting God to meet them ?

Of course you can buy or sell without a number. There are a fair number of people, most of them in this country illegally, who do not participate in the Social Security system and they can buy and sell just fine. So are these the most God-reliant of all?

SS taxes are mandatory for law-abiding employers, and self-employed above a certain low level, but the number is not. Feel free to go without one but good luck in finding a job that pays better than your domestic/day labor job.

[tomedward]

Oh dear...

OK, let me start off with this short prologue. I am not a patriot. I don't think that America is a great country, that it was founded on Christian principles, or that it especially loved by God our Father, and I think that the Constitution is a human-exhalting, atheistic document which encourages the slave trade. I say this not because I enjoy bashing the country of my birth, but to remind you that if I happen to say something nice about the United States, it isn't because I have a patriotic agenda to defend.

America isn't an especially unrighteous nation. All humans are depraved, but if one were to rate the nations of the world by their wickedness, America certainly wouldn't be near the top. In fact, I've always thought that we American Christians are spoiled. It's relatively easy to be a law-abiding citizen without compromising one's belief in the Lordship of Christ Jesus.

But please remember the context in which Paul and Peter told us to obey the government. At this time, pagan Rome poisoned the world with its state religion of Caesar-worship. The Romans encouraged people to turn aside from the living God and to worship images of gold and marble. The same government that put the Son of God to death now illegalized Christianity and persecuted the church. Yet the Apostles teach us to obey the government, not for its own sake, but for the sake of the Lord. Early Christians displayed their faith by other means. The Christians refused to attend the games at the Colosseum, to worship in the temples of false idols, or to say kaisar kurios ("Caesar is Lord"). Yet they honored Caesar's authority and payed their taxes.

Peter the Apostle referred to pagan Rome as Babylon, which is a direct reference to the same Babylon which held Israel in captivity. John the Apostle used Rome (which he also called Babylon) to symbolize God's overthrow and destruction of the wicked nations of the world. In short, Rome was utterly depraved and sinful. Despite that, our ancestors were told to obey the state. So how much more should we obey a state which doesn't require us to worship images of false gods.

What I'm trying to tell you is that America isn't really all that bad. There is no reason for us to jump to the conclusion that it is the government of the antichrist. In fact, not all Christians agree with the eschatology that one single government will arise in the end times under the authority of Satan. I tend to think that since Satan is already the god of this world, it isn't necessary for all of the nations of the earth to be unified under one government to fulfill Biblical prophecy.

If one does not volunteer to participate in a system that does not require them to do so does he break the law ? A simple "yes" or "no" will do !!!

You are obviously evading the point of the OP because you are unable to support your assumptions with fact. Why can't you produce the supposed Social Security 'law" which you so vehemently defend without providing one shred of evidence ? You've been lied to arunma.

[tomedward]

Of course you can buy or sell without a number. There are a fair number of people, most of them in this country illegally, who do not participate in the Social Security system and they can buy and sell just fine. So are these the most God-reliant of all?

SS taxes are mandatory for law-abiding employers, and self-employed above a certain low level, but the number is not. Feel free to go without one but good luck in finding a job that pays better than your domestic/day labor job.

Of course in truth no one needs a number to buy or sell that is merely what the government wants you to believe !

[eldermike]

AC 16:37 But Paul said to the officers: "They beat us publicly without a trial, even though we are Roman citizens, .........................

Paperwork? Numbers?
The answer is yes

[arunma]

If one does not volunteer to participate in a system that does not require them to do so does he break the law ? A simple "yes" or "no" will do !!!

You are obviously evading the point of the OP because you are unable to support your assumptions with fact. Why can't you produce the supposed Social Security 'law" which you so vehemently defend without providing one shred of evidence ? You've been lied to arunma.

But here's my issue. It seems to me that your argument is predicated on the assumption that because America requires us to have a number in order to buy or sell, that number is the mark of the beast. Requiring people to have a number to buy or sell isn't intrinsically a bad thing. It only becomes a bad thing when that number is issued by the antichrist. Let me further remind you that the mark of the beast is most likely an allegory for homage that people will be required to pay to false gods in order to do business.

[eldermike]

The Romans had a system of collecting taxes from EVERYONE! Saul used this system (Names and numbers) to round up the Jews who had converted to Christianity. Paul used His Roman ID to get out of an asian jail. A tax/citizenship number is not a new idea.

[mesue]

Are you admitting that you or your children can not buy or sell without a number ?

Also you are implying that I am not law abiding. Unless you can prove me wrong by producing the law that requires mandatory particpation in SS I will consider your implication a false accusation.

Does one honor God by praying (making application) to the SS system to meet their needs instead of trusting God to meet them ?
I didn't know, until now, that haveing a SSN allowed me to buy or sell anything. So, I guess that I am not admitting to anything.
I don't know you from Adam. It is between you and God on whether or not you obey Him.
I have never prayed for SS to meet my needs.

[mesue]

No one wrote anything about the "as long as the government is fair" proviso. But it seemed to me like that's what the OP implied. He's trying to convince us that it's OK to take advantage of legal loopholes so as to not pay what we owe the government. All I'm trying to say is that Paul and Peter told us to obey the government at a time when the government was wicked, idolatrous, and pagan. Whether America is wicked I will not address, but it certainly isn't idolatrous or pagan. Everyone here knows that I'm not big on patriotism. But seeing as how Uncle Sam isn't burning down churches and crucifying disciples, I think it's fair enough that we should pay our social security tax.

Sorry if my last post was confusing, but I hope I've cleared it up.
Oh :doh: yes, you have cleared it up. I didn't bother to read all of the OP, because, as he said
... The truth is freely given. Anyone who loves Jesus loves truth and hates deception ...
Which, to me is the purpose of the OP. I will not be decieved into thinking that because I obey the Government of the United States of America and the state of New York (which is the highest taxed state) that I don't belong to Jesus. God wants my first fruits and He gets them. God wants me to obey the law, and for the most part (:blush: got busted speeding) I do.
Just as your tithe supports the church so do taxes. Go to your local convenient store and tell them you refuse to pay your sales tax and see what happens then. Ergo SS.

[Project 86]

I'm not saying I agree with Tom but none of you that are posting against his view are doing a good job. People seem to assume that you have to have the number to not break the law and because it's breaking the law to not have one your disobeying God buy not getting the number. I would agree with Tom, back up you arguments with facts and not posts that mean nothing. Carry on. ;)

[tomedward]

AC 16:37 But Paul said to the officers: "They beat us publicly without a trial, even though we are Roman citizens, .........................

Paperwork? Numbers?
The answer is yes


I think you miss the point of the OP Eldermike. I only want someone to produce the law that they are so eager to assume exists. If there is no law my compliance is complete.

[arunma]

I think you miss the point of the OP Eldermike. I only want someone to produce the law that they are so eager to assume exists. If their is no law my compliance is complete.

I don't dispute your claim that it is possible to not pay a social security tax (nor do I agree with it; I don't know for sure). All I'm saying is that the Bible tells us to obey the law in spirit, and I think this principle can be extended to secular laws that don't contradict God's Law.

[tomedward]

But here's my issue. It seems to me that your argument is predicated on the assumption that because America requires us to have a number in order to buy or sell, that number is the mark of the beast. Requiring people to have a number to buy or sell isn't intrinsically a bad thing. It only becomes a bad thing when that number is issued by the antichrist. Let me further remind you that the mark of the beast is most likely an allegory for homage that people will be required to pay to false gods in order to do business.

I said only that the ssn is "a" mark of "a" beast system, perhaps not "the" mark of the beast. A number is a mark, a corporation such as the United States government is a fictitious entity. It does not exist in substance and truth. Can you hold a conversation with a fictitious entity ? Therefore, a corporation has no life breathed into it by God and is a spiritually dead thing, a soul-less creature, a beast. God deals in reality, not legal fictions.

Is homage not paid considering the average American works from January 1st to May 6th wherein 100% of the fruit of his/her labor is plundered. America ran on surpluses not deficiets prior to the inception of the income tax and the ss system.

[whitestar]

There is no need for a legal loophole when the law requires nothing of you.
I suppose when the government requires the mark of the beast, (as if they haven't already "required" "a" mark of "a" beast), there will be many who profess the misinterpretation of Romans 13 that says, "We must obey."

Romans 13 may not have the proviso "as long as the government is fair" but it does say that "He (whoever the higher powers may be) is a minister of God unto thee for good." That seems to be a qualifier wouldn't you say ? Does a minister of God unto thee for good make legal the killing of babies ? Covet his neighbors goods ? (income tax, state tax, property tax). Legislate gambling lotteries ? Perpetuate public schools wherein God is not allowed and lie to it's chattel concerning the voluntary nature of the Social Security system ?

Does Romans 13 teach that those who rule are excluded from the Law of God ?

The mark of the beast ALSO requires woship....over God. While a Christian might think about doing one, they certainly aren't going to woship the government or the head of the govenment at all....that would require rennouncing their faith in Jesus.

Second, if my dad hadn't had a SSN when he was working, when he died, there would have been no money coming in every month to support the three young children he left behind. My mom was certainly in no shape to run out and get a job when he was suddenly killed in a car accident. She also had no work experience anyway. But at any rate, we survived because of Social Sercruity. Its also there for working people who become disabled. Like me. I used to work for many years, and paid in on SS so I got that money back when I became disabled. Saying its a waste because for YEARS they have been saying it will go bankrupt is simply not true. It helps alot of people that otherwise would be in dire shape.

God bless
WhiteStar

[tomedward]

The mark of the beast ALSO requires woship....over God. While a Christian might think about doing one, they certainly aren't going to woship the government or the head of the govenment at all....that would require rennouncing their faith in Jesus.

Second, if my dad hadn't had a SSN when he was working, when he died, there would have been no money coming in every month to support the three young children he left behind. My mom was certainly in no shape to run out and get a job when he was suddenly killed in a car accident. She also had no work experience anyway. But at any rate, we survived because of Social Sercruity. Its also there for working people who become disabled. Like me. I used to work for many years, and paid in on SS so I got that money back when I became disabled. Saying its a waste because for YEARS they have been saying it will go bankrupt is simply not true. It helps alot of people that otherwise would be in dire shape.

God bless
WhiteStar

If you feel the need, then proceed. The OP simply makes a statement that the ss system is voluntary and I asked if anyone could refute it.

[eldermike]

I think you miss the point of the OP Eldermike. I only want someone to produce the law that they are so eager to assume exists. If their is no law my compliance is complete.

But that's a political issue not a spirtual issue of slavery.

[tomedward]

I don't dispute your claim that it is possible to not pay a social security tax (nor do I agree with it; I don't know for sure). All I'm saying is that the Bible tells us to obey the law in spirit, and I think this principle can be extended to secular laws that don't contradict God's Law.

Arunma, don't you think it wise to know the terms and conditions of a contract before you agree to it ? Why did you, or your parents, sign up if you/they were not sure ?
If God tells us that He will meet our needs, why do we go to men to meet our needs. Social Security is nothing more than a forced redistribution of wealth, the coveting of one mans goods for the benefit of another. The contradiction I see is that helping others in times of financial need is something that should be done under Christ's perfect law of liberty, not force.

I am saddened when I see God's people being lied to and decieved, and then defending the very system that has decieved them yet they are unable to produce one shred of evidence to support their claim. Who is the spirit behind secular (Godless) law ?

The SS system may fit the needs of those who know not their Creator, but is totally unesseccary if we believe God will meet our needs.

[tomedward]

But that's a political issue not a spirtual issue of slavery.

You have been warned by America's leaders that SS is in trouble. When it was first instituted sixteen Americans worked for the benefit of one. I believe the ratio now is 3:1. Do you see a trend ? Perhaps people would be wise to take heed. Is it good stewardship of God's blessings to cast them to the wind, especially if you are not required by law to do so ?

[tomedward]

I didn't know, until now, that haveing a SSN allowed me to buy or sell anything. So, I guess that I am not admitting to anything.
I don't know you from Adam. It is between you and God on whether or not you obey Him.
I have never prayed for SS to meet my needs.

This was your previous testimony mesue:

"Big deal, my kids have a SSN, so what? Oooooo, they can get a job!"

Doesn't getting a job have everything to do with buying or selling ?

God makes no demand for me to obey a law that does not exist.

[tomedward]

Oh :doh: yes, you have cleared it up. I didn't bother to read all of the OP, because, as he said

Which, to me is the purpose of the OP. I will not be decieved into thinking that because I obey the Government of the United States of America and the state of New York (which is the highest taxed state) that I don't belong to Jesus. God wants my first fruits and He gets them. God wants me to obey the law, and for the most part (:blush: got busted speeding) I do.
Just as your tithe supports the church so do taxes. Go to your local convenient store and tell them you refuse to pay your sales tax and see what happens then. Ergo SS.

I never said that you don't belong to Jesus nor could I because I am not your judge mesue. I simply asked you to produce the law which requires participation if you believe it exists. You have failed to do so.

[tomedward]

I'm not saying I agree with Tom but none of you that are posting against his view are doing a good job. People seem to assume that you have to have the number to not break the law and because it's breaking the law to not have one your disobeying God buy not getting the number. I would agree with Tom, back up you arguments with facts and not posts that mean nothing. Carry on. ;)

In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found:

[mesue]

This was your previous testimony mesue:

"Big deal, my kids have a SSN, so what? Oooooo, they can get a job!"

Doesn't getting a job have everything to do with buying or selling ?

God makes no demand for me to obey a law that does not exist.
This was my post along with scripture to back me up.
I didn't bother reading this. God is bigger and God is in control.
Big deal, my kids have a SSN, so what? Oooooo, they can get a job! Just like their hard working law abiding parents who pay their taxes as they should to honor God.


This includes paying taxes.
In NY one must get a SSN in order to obtain a job. Try and obtain a legitimate job without it. Obtain a "legitimate" job without one and see what happens when the IRS catches up to you for not paying your taxes.
I also said
...
I don't know you from Adam. It is between you and God on whether or not you obey Him.
...
and then quoted you when you said
... The truth is freely given. Anyone who loves Jesus loves truth and hates deception ...
to which I said
Which, to me is the purpose of the OP. I will not be decieved into thinking that because I obey the Government of the United States of America and the state of New York (which is the highest taxed state) that I don't belong to Jesus. God wants my first fruits and He gets them. God wants me to obey the law, and for the most part (:blush: got busted speeding) I do.
Just as your tithe supports the church so do taxes. Go to your local convenient store and tell them you refuse to pay your sales tax and see what happens then. Ergo SS.
You can spew whatever venom you wish at the government, using whatever media you have available. This is the beauty of being a citizen of the United States of America. You chose this forum to spew and I responded.
But, as a citizens of the United States of America, I feel we have certain duties. One is to vote. The second is to pay taxes. I feel that by my preforming these duties I honor God. That is between Him and I. Just because I choose to follow scripture certainly doesn't mean that you are obligated to. We are, after all, under grace and not the law.

[Project 86]

mesue, where did you learn that you need a SSN to get a job in New York? Do you have a web site you could refer us too? I'm just an observer that is curious about this topic. I have read that the Supreme Court has ruled that people can't refuse to hire someone because they have no SSN. If that is the case then New York couldn't have such a law from my understanding. I'm certainly open to truth that says otherwise.

[tomedward]

This was my post along with scripture to back me up.

In NY one must get a SSN in order to obtain a job. Try and obtain a legitimate job without it. Obtain a "legitimate" job without one and see what happens when the IRS catches up to you for not paying your taxes.
I also said

and then quoted you when you said

to which I said

You can spew whatever venom you wish at the government, using whatever media you have available. This is the beauty of being a citizen of the United States of America. You chose this forum to spew and I responded.
But, as a citizens of the United States of America, I feel we have certain duties. One is to vote. The second is to pay taxes. I feel that by my preforming these duties I honor God. That is between Him and I. Just because I choose to follow scripture certainly doesn't mean that you are obligated to. We are, after all, under grace and not the law.

Mesue, I am quite aware of what has been said previously and I think you have just about said everything other than address the OP. Have you ever looked up the definition of "citizen" ?

citizen One who, under the constitution and laws of the United States, or of a particular state, is a member of the political community, owing allegiance and being entitled to the enjoyment of full civil rights. Amy v. Smith, 1 Litt. (Ky.) 331; Minor v. Happersett, 21 Wall. 162, 22 L.Ed. 627

citizen n. person who by place of birth, nationality of one or both parents, or by going through the naturalization process has sworn loyalty to a nation. Law.com Dictionary

"You have heard some discussion as to the meaning of this term "citizenship of the United States". It has a plain, simple everyday meaning, and that meaning you may safely take without a definition. It is that unequivocal relation between every American and his country which binds him to allegiance and pledges to him protection."

United States v Darnod 25 Federal case Number 14,915 page number 763, 1855

This is completely opposed to what scripture teaches, which is to "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another" (Romans 13:8). If we owe allegiance or sworn loyalty to Caesar/governments of unregenerate men, we not only owe something besides "love," but we are trying to serve two masters, which Christ says is impossible.

Perhaps you can show me in the Bible where Christ teaches His Own to owe allegiance to ones country. Yes I know Paul called himself a citizen but his citizenship did not bind him to allegiance. It simply meant he was an inhabitant of a geographical area or a "townsman". Can you imagine Paul owing allegiance to Rome ? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 1 Corinthians 6:12

Is it venomous to ask what law requires an assumed obligation ? Funny, what you consider venom I consider truth. Now that's diversity !

"The Social Security Act does not require a person to have a Social Security Number (SSN) to live and work in the United States, nor does it require an SSN simply for the purpose of having one. However, if someone works without an SSN, we cannot properly credit the earnings for the work performed." Charles Mullen, Associate Commissioner, Office of Public Inquiries, Social Security Administration
http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd27.htm

What more can I say ?

[qpmomma]

Are you selling something Tom? How does this thread relate to Baptists/Anabaptists?

I was wondering the same thing. :confused:

Christina

[tomedward]

I was wondering the same thing. :confused:

Christina

I have brought the truth. The Social Security Administration has sold the lie. Would you like to prove otherwise ?

[eldermike]

You have been warned by America's leaders that SS is in trouble. When it was first instituted sixteen Americans worked for the benefit of one. I believe the ratio now is 3:1. Do you see a trend ? Perhaps people would be wise to take heed. Is it good stewardship of God's blessings to cast them to the wind, especially if you are not required by law to do so ?

Ok. but this is a political issue.

[53Isaiah]

Thanks for the information Tom, and you certainly seem passionate about this. I appreciate zeal; there is not enough of it in the body of Christ.

Having spent several years in judicial studies, there is a lot one can do to opt out of social participative activities such as Social Security.

It is unclear if you simple advocating for people to opt-out, or is there something inherent to the SSA that is unbiblical. Please clarify.

[SteelDisciple]

No lambslove. The truth is freely given. Anyone who loves Jesus loves truth and hates deception. That is how this thread relates to all followers of Christ, including Baptists. There are only two possiblities, either participation in SS is mandatory or voluntary. The point I am trying to make is that participation is not required by the law. Can you prove me wrong ? And if I am correct why would any family want to enslave their children with such a burdensome obligation to another master knowing full well that the SS system is bankrupt and destined for failure ? I will give you all of my 672 blessings if you provide for me any law that requires mandatory participation in the SS system.


You realize don't you...that the US does not work FOR the people..it has not for a long time. the SS system is the LEAST of our worries. Yes..we are branded with a number so to speak...but the government has made it so you NEED one..it's not the first time the government has contridicted itself.

The fact that the government works in its OWN best interest..means that we are all slaves to it in SOME way.

[JPPT1974]

You realize don't you...that the US does not work FOR the people..it has not for a long time. the SS system is the LEAST of our worries. Yes..we are branded with a number so to speak...but the government has made it so you NEED one..it's not the first time the government has contridicted itself.

The fact that the government works in its OWN best interest..means that we are all slaves to it in SOME way.

The Government wants to help us in order to keep us intact
As well as wants to make sure we have the best interest possible
The Government seems to also love to give compromises as well

[tomedward]

Thanks for the information Tom, and you certainly seem passionate about this. I appreciate zeal; there is not enough of it in the body of Christ.

Having spent several years in judicial studies, there is a lot one can do to opt out of social participative activities such as Social Security.

It is unclear if you simple advocating for people to opt-out, or is there something inherent to the SSA that is unbiblical. Please clarify.

Thanks 53Isaiah. Care to share any rescources for opting out for the benefit of those who may be interested ?

It seems to me that most "baby boomers" have invested too much to drop out at this point. Would they recieve any of THEIR investment back or would the SSA simply covet it ?

Realizing that many find themselves in this situation I am advocating nothing more than giving due dilligence to this matter before one assumes it is a good idea to bind their children where the law makes no requirement, simply because everyone else does.

When I learned the truth I chose by faith to believe God would meet my family's needs as He said He would, so I never applied for SSN's for my Daughters and Son, now 21, 19 and 17 years old.
I had a SSN and I am aware of the SSA's policy that once you have an SSN it is irrevocable. Once again I chose to believe God rather than the SSA. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." So much for irrevocability.

Whenever I am asked for the number I simply reply, "I can not give you that which I do not possess." That ends all discussion. It is not my number. It is the SSA's number as I have been novated, the substitution of a new obligation for an old one (redeemed by the precious blood of Christ) from the things of this world into the Kingdom of God, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins."

Biblically I was not authorized by My King to enter my children into a binding legal contract and obligate them to another master, a truth I wish my parents had known. But God is good and that which seems impossible to a man is possible for God. The blessings of Our Father far outweigh the inconvenience of not having a SSN.

Thank you for the encouragment Brother

[tomedward]

You realize don't you...that the US does not work FOR the people..it has not for a long time. the SS system is the LEAST of our worries. Yes..we are branded with a number so to speak...but the government has made it so you NEED one..it's not the first time the government has contridicted itself.

The fact that the government works in its OWN best interest..means that we are all slaves to it in SOME way.

I have realized the truth of which you speak for a long time now Steel and yes it is less than the least of my worries since worrying stands opposed to faith. The government has merely created the illusion that people need a SSN. Are we to look to men to meet our needs or to God alone ? Is not the best slave the slave that thinks he is free ? If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Thanks for your input.

[mesue]

mesue, where did you learn that you need a SSN to get a job in New York?...
from every job I've ever held I need to produce proof of a SSN.

[eldermike]

from every job I've ever held I need to produce proof of a SSN.

My wife owns a small business. I can tell you that she has zero options on this, no SSN, no job. You don't need a law that requires a SSN if you have laws that require full reporting of income. The system backfills the requirment for the SSN. If you want to work, you get a number, it's that simple.

[tomedward]

My wife owns a small business. I can tell you that she has zero options on this, no SSN, no job. You don't need a law that requires a SSN if you have laws that require full reporting of income. The system backfills the requirment for the SSN. If you want to work, you get a number, it's that simple.

Hello Eldermike
God provides for all my needs in much the same way as your wife. I can tell you that since the law makes no requirement of me to have a SSN I have a wonderful option to live and work freely without any governmental interference. America is a great country !

On the other hand, if you have a SSN I am certain that the law requires reporting of "income", (a term that is not defined in the Internal Revenue Code, BTW), but that is simply not so when you choose not to participate in the voluntary Social Security System.

As far as the system "backfilling" the alleged, but not proven "requirement" to participate, firstly what is your definition of "backfilling"? Websters Dictionary only has one entry for backfill as follows:

Backfill : verb
transitive senses : to refill (as an excavation) usually with excavated material
intransitive senses : to backfill an excavation

How do you refill a hole that was never dug in the first place ? I certainly understand that a requirement to participate is falsely implied but if it were mandatory the law would be clearly written as such. Why then are you given the option to apply for a SSN whenever you desire ? What if you choose not to apply until you are 100 years old ? Have you broken any law ? No ! If participation were required the SSA would simply assign everyone a number and not rely on peoples ignorance of the truth to bind themselves via voluntary servitude which is not against the law as involuntary servitude is. The SSA lays out the bait to ensnare with such innuendos as, "You must have a SSN to work." I and others are living proof that their statement is blatantly false. Illegal aliens do it all the time.

Here are some examples from the SSA’s own website for your edification. Tell me if you see any requirements to do anything.

Social Security Numbers For Children

SSA Publication No. 05-10023, February 2004, (Recycle prior editions), ICN 454925 [View .pdf]

When you have a baby, one of the things that should be on your "to do" list is getting a Social Security number for your baby. The easiest time to do this is when you give information for your child’s birth certificate. If you wait, you can apply for a number at any Social Security office.


"one of the things that should be on your "to do" list" ? Where is the mandatory language here ?


Must my child have a Social Security number?

No. But it is a very good idea to apply for a number right after your baby is born. Getting a Social Security number for your newborn is voluntary. You should apply for your baby’s number before the child is 1 year old. If you do not, it may take up to 12 weeks longer, because we will contact the state office that issued the birth record to verify the record. We do this to prevent people from using fraudulent birth records to obtain Social Security numbers to establish false identities. http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10023.html#why

"A very good idea" ? "You should apply" ? Is that mandatory language ?

Apply 2 : to make an appeal or request especially in the form of a written application.

Request 1 : the act or an instance of asking for something
2 : something asked for

The language is quite clear, the problem is that people lack understanding and truth. The public school system may have something to do with this ;)

[tomedward]

Another point. Why is the chattel "required" ;) to participate in SS, but the "ruling class" is not ? Is the plan that legislators espouse to be such a wonderful system for the average American too lowely for the elitists ?



In the entire history of Social Security Numbers, there have only been six people who have been told by a Court to get a number. Note that ALL OF THE CASES INVOLVE PEOPLE WHO WERE PARTAKING IN WELFARE.

Bowen v. Roy 106 SCt 2147, 476 US 693 (the only Supreme Court case)


Callahan v. Woods 479 FSupp 621 (reversed by 658 F2d 679)


Chambers v. Klein 419 FSupp 569


McElrath v. Califano 615 F2d 434


Doe v. Sharp 491 FSupp 346


Green v. Philbrook 576 F 440, (reversing 427 FSupp 834)
There is NO other Federal Court case requiring someone to get a Social Security Number. No one in authority has told you to get a Social Security Number. Except for these six welfare recipients, there are NO other federal cases requiring someone to get a number. Not to work, not to pay a tax, not to open a bank account, not to drive, not to vote, not to cash a check. [I've been told, but could not confirm, that there was a Florida case where someone was told by a local court to get a SSN to register a boat]. NO COURT HAS EVER REQUIRED A WORKER TO GET A SSN, not even a federal worker. There are plenty of cases where workers who already have a number are required to give it. http://usa-the-republic.com/mark%20of%20beast/Chap7.htm

[eldermike]

I think the 1996 welfare reform act requires (no way out) employers to report FICA withholdings, along with all other taxes, to their state. So not only is FICA required under federal law it's now required to report it to states. Am I wrong?

[tomedward]

I think the 1996 welfare reform act requires (no way out) employers to report FICA withholdings, along with all other taxes, to their state. So not only is FICA required under federal law it's now required to report it to states. Am I wrong?

Eldermike

You are correct ! "Employers" are required to report FICA withholdings...................... from those who have SSN's. If those who work for your wife have no SSN how can she possibly be required by law to report FICA withholding concerning them ?

If your wife has asked permission of the State to grant her a business license she has agreed to abide by the laws of those she has obligated herself to. What is the definition of a license ? Permission granted to do that which would otherwise be illegal. When one gets a license, it is an agreement with the State to perform a particular duty. She is recieving a privilege (the word "privilege" originates from the combination of two Latin words meaning "private law" a law outside of God's Law), and whenever you recieve a privilege from man there is a duty attached to it. We must ask ourselves, "Who are we binding ourselves with ?" By recieving a privelege we are gaining the favor of rulers, but scripture says, "Many wait on the favor of rulers, but justice comes to a man from the Lord." Proverbs 29:26. We are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers (2 Corinthians 6:14)

I have no license from the State since the means which God provides to meet the needs of my family is in no way shape or form illegal (based on the definition of "license"), nor do those who are blessed to share with me in God's provision possessors of SSN's. Nor does God descibe me anywhere in His Holy Word as an "employer".

Another indication of the governments deceptive practices is apparent when one looks into the source and origin of the term FICA, or Federal Insurance Contributions Act.

The payroll taxes collected for Social Security are of course taxes, but they can also be described as contributions to the social insurance system that is Social Security. Hence the name "Federal Insurance Contributions Act."

Social Security is NOT a TRUST FUND or INSURANCE.

In 1980 the Supreme Court in Fleming v. Nestor determined that Social Security remains constitutional because there has never been a promise to pay benefits.

Does not insurance require the payment of a benefit ? All insurance but that applied for from the SSA I guess ! And as far as Social Security being Constitutional, so is everything wherein no law requires participation.

To get back to the OP in which I stated that participation in the SS system is voluntary, I have yet to have anyone provide evidence to the contrary.

Peace Brother

[eldermike]

You are correct ! "Employers" are required to report FICA withholdings...................... from those who have SSN's. If those who work for your wife have no SSN how can she possibly be required by law to report FICA withholding concerning them ?


But, the changes made in the reform act I mentioned make it impossible to report income from workers without a SSN. If a worker is a W2 worker, and that's all of them other than contract workers, then you must have a SSN for each W2 filed at the end of the year. One copy to the feds, one to the state, one to the employee. There is no option to leave off the SSN.

You could be right about it being voluntary, I am not an expert on that. But, you can't work for my wife, I am an expert on that.

Peace to you brother

[tomedward]

But, the changes made in the reform act I mentioned make it impossible to report income from workers without a SSN. If a worker is a W2 worker, and that's all of them other than contract workers, then you must have a SSN for each W2 filed at the end of the year. One copy to the feds, one to the state, one to the employee. There is no option to leave off the SSN.

You could be right about it being voluntary, I am not an expert on that. But, you can't work for my wife, I am an expert on that.

Peace to you brother

"But, the changes made in the reform act I mentioned make it impossible to report income from workers without a SSN."

My point exactly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I can read.

The 1974 Privacy Act, states that no federal, state or local government agency can deny you any right, benefit or privilege because you refuse to give an SSN. And further, how can one give that which he does not possess ?

[JPPT1974]

Hey tell me about it.
I have no job either.
And I am trying to get disability benefits.
But also I am not married nor have children.

[tomedward]

Hey tell me about it.
I have no job either.
And I am trying to get disability benefits.
But also I am not married nor have children.

Who said anything about not having a job ?