Dr Evangelicus

[Naomi4Christ]

John Wickliffe, the original English reformer, who lived 200 years before Luther, Calvin, Knox et al.

Why do we give Luther so much credit when it was Wickliffe who came up with the goods?

Of course, he is well recognised here in the UK where the country's most prestigious theological college is named after him.

Any views on this important part of English church history?

[Eby]

I think we give Luther so much credit as although he wasn't the first reformer or person to come up with the ideas he did (for example he was obviously influenced by Erasmus - "Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched.") Luther was the one who caused the reformation which swept across Europe.

All the previous reformers had managed to do was create small pockets of protestantism in Europe, but it was Luther who caused the reformation which caused protestantism to sweep across Europe.

Luthers beliefs and ideas were obviously taken from previous reformers but he was the only one who managed to make such an impact and cause the reformation.

[gitlance]

John Wickliffe, the original English reformer, who lived 200 years before Luther, Calvin, Knox et al.

Why do we give Luther so much credit when it was Wickliffe who came up with the goods?

Of course, he is well recognised here in the UK where the country's most prestigious theological college is named after him.

Any views on this important part of English church history?

Wycliffe was pretty quickly put down by the Church in England because his views were too radical -- he denied the Catholic faith.

[karen freeinchristman]

Wycliffe was pretty quickly put down by the Church in England because his views were too radical -- he denied the Catholic faith.
What, you mean to say he denied the whole Catholic faith, or what parts of the catholic faith did he deny?

[gitlance]

What, you mean to say he denied the whole Catholic faith, or what parts of the catholic faith did he deny?

He was pretty radical. Some have compared him to the later anabaptists. The things he taught were definitely not Anglican as we understand the Anglican Church today.

And we all know that Luther would have rather had Communion with the *antichrist* pope then with the anabaptists. HAHAHA.

[karen freeinchristman]

He was pretty radical. Some have compared him to the later anabaptists. The things he taught were definitely not Anglican as we understand the Anglican Church today.

And we all know that Luther would have rather had Communion with the *antichrist* pope then with the anabaptists. HAHAHA.
Sorry, gitlance, but you have not given me any specific details here! Have you got any?

[gitlance]

Sorry, gitlance, but you have not given me any specific details here! Have you got any?

Well, without opening any of my books -- he denied the efficacy of the Sacraments. Believed that there were two ordinances given by Christ to the church, but that they didn't convey any graces. Obviously he did not accept the priesthood and three-hold ministry with apostolic succession (would have called that a medieval invention). He rejected the necessity of works. Taught a pre-sola scriptura. Advocated some kind of total depravity similar to Calvin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wycliffe

[karen freeinchristman]

Well, without opening any of my books -- he denied the efficacy of the Sacraments. Believed that there were two ordinances given by Christ to the church, but that they didn't convey any graces. Obviously he did not accept the priesthood and three-hold ministry with apostolic succession (would have called that a medieval invention). He rejected the necessity of works. Taught a pre-sola scriptura. Advocated some kind of total depravity similar to Calvin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wycliffe
thanks! :thumbsup:

It is kind of interesting after reading what he was like and what he stood for that there is a Bible college named after him. He was at the extreme end of Protestantism, I would say.

[gtsecc]

thanks! :thumbsup:

It is kind of interesting after reading what he was like and what he stood for that there is a Bible college named after him. He was at the extreme end of Protestantism, I would say.

Oh man!
Wycliffe Hall Bible College. ^_^
LOL.
Maybe there is some truth to that these days.
I can't believe you said that.

[Naomi4Christ]

Oh man!
Wycliffe Hall Bible College. ^_^
LOL.
Maybe there is some truth to that these days.
I can't believe you said that.

It's not actually called that...

[gtsecc]

It's not actually called that...
VTS is not actually called Virginia Bible College either.
It is joke playing on the fact that it is so Low Church and Protestant leaning.
I have a dear friend who went to Seminary at Wycliffe Hall - I know full well what it is called. ;)

[Naomi4Christ]

VTS is not actually called Virginia Bible College either.
It is joke playing on the fact that it is so Low Church and Protestant leaning.
I have a dear friend who went to Seminary at Wycliffe Hall - I know full well what it is called. ;)

It's a Theological College - a very prestigious one.

[karen freeinchristman]

It's a Theological College - a very prestigious one.
I am wondering what it means to be a 'prestigious' Theological College?

What does prestigious mean in terms of the Kingdom of God?

[gtsecc]

I am wondering what it means to be a 'prestigious' Theological College?

What does prestigious mean in terms of the Kingdom of God?

Prestigious = Oxford

Gregory the Great said, "It is almost like a river, both shallow and deep, in which a lamb may walk and an elephant swim."

I think we need to able to talk about Christianity in simple term capturing the important ideas without telling folks the Gospel is an inch deep, or implying that if you get into the deeper stuff, you are in a different river.

[Naomi4Christ]

I am wondering what it means to be a 'prestigious' Theological College?

What does prestigious mean in terms of the Kingdom of God?

Hard to get into, and easy to get a job out of, I suspect. You are there with la crème de la crème, and have the most sought after teachers.

[karen freeinchristman]

Hard to get into, and easy to get a job out of, I suspect. You are there with la crème de la crème, and have the most sought after teachers.
Sounds elitist to me...
and ever so worldly. Like I said, what does it mean in terms of the Kingdom of God? God uses ordinary people in extraordinary ways.

[Naomi4Christ]

It's just a fact - it doesn't have to take anything away from any other theological colleges. Surely it's good to know that there is a place where you are sure the teaching is sound - eg from Alistair McGrath, and where you know that there will be a decent level of intellectual power.

ps: I don't have any vested interest in Wickliffe. I think our clergy tends to come via Trinity, Bristol.

[gtsecc]

I have typically been more impressed with the Knowledge of folks coming out of Nashotah House, General Seminary, and St. Vlads.

[karen freeinchristman]

It's just a fact - it doesn't have to take anything away from any other theological colleges. Surely it's good to know that there is a place where you are sure the teaching is sound - eg from Alistair McGrath, and where you know that there will be a decent level of intellectual power.

I am glad you are reassured by this.

But I would still like to think that the training I may receive through the Northern Ordination Course (University of Leeds) will contain nearly as sound of teaching with at least a half-decent level of intellectual power (prestige notwithstanding)! ;)

[Naomi4Christ]

I am glad you are reassured by this.

But I would still like to think that the training I may receive through the Northern Ordination Course (University of Leeds) will contain nearly as sound of teaching with at least a half-decent level of intellectual power (prestige notwithstanding)! ;)

And you probably won't have to wear robes when you are on site!

[CSMR]

John Wickliffe, the original English reformer, who lived 200 years before Luther, Calvin, Knox et al.

Why do we give Luther so much credit when it was Wickliffe who came up with the goods?

Of course, he is well recognised here in the UK where the country's most prestigious theological college is named after him.

Any views on this important part of English church history?
I don't think an argument over who is more presigious than whom is an edifying one, whether it is over the reformers and pre-reformers, or over theological colleges.

Wycliffe is certainly assigned significant historical importance. Is it underestimated? I don't know. I would be interested to have some of his ideas presented and discussed here. The root of protestantism, of the reformation, from a theological point of view - justification by faith alone - was either not a part of his thinking or something he had not worked out as coherently as Luther or Calvin. That would be a reason why protestants don't look to his ideas so much as to the later reformers.

[thejesusfish90]

Well, without opening any of my books -- he denied the efficacy of the Sacraments. Believed that there were two ordinances given by Christ to the church, but that they didn't convey any graces. Obviously he did not accept the priesthood and three-hold ministry with apostolic succession (would have called that a medieval invention). He rejected the necessity of works. Taught a pre-sola scriptura. Advocated some kind of total depravity similar to Calvin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wycliffe

lol... Sounds like my kinda guy...:P

[Naomi4Christ]

lol... Sounds like my kinda guy...:P

Me too!

[Naomi4Christ]

I don't think an argument over who is more presigious than whom is an edifying one, whether it is over the reformers and pre-reformers, or over theological colleges.

Of course not, but the point was that greater minds than mine obviously thought that Wycliffe was a good guy. :)


Wycliffe is certainly assigned significant historical importance. Is it underestimated? I don't know. I would be interested to have some of his ideas presented and discussed here. The root of protestantism, of the reformation, from a theological point of view - justification by faith alone - was either not a part of his thinking or something he had not worked out as coherently as Luther or Calvin. That would be a reason why protestants don't look to his ideas so much as to the later reformers.

I think Wycliffe's biggest legacy must have been the first English translation of the Bible. This made him the enemy of the church. It's amazing to think of what he did here. He translated the bible, and then copies had to be made by hand - when you think how long it takes just to read the bible - let alone copy it! Then the copies had to be secretly spread around before the authorities destroyed them.

Then Wycliffe's other big thing was recognising the abuses of the church, and granted he (with the Lollards) probably went too far in trying to counteract these.

I was really amazed to read about the very full life he had, and what a feat it must have been to pull this off in the 14th century. It would also have been amazing today.

[erin74]

lol... Sounds like my kinda guy...:P

that is word for word what I was going to type!