Did Jesus desire evil in Gethsemane?

[jasonlevene]

If not, then why did he ask God the Father to nullify Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 by taking the cup/cross away from him? Remember, no Jesus on the cross=no fulfillment of OY prophecy.

[Sword-In-Hand]

Cause Jesus was fully God and fully man. This was His human side coming through, but if one reads the verse right after this He says, "Nevertheless, Your will be done and not Mine." This passage further shows the humanity of Christ.

[HumbleMan]

I think (and it's my opinion only) that at that time, Jesus was asking God for relief. Christ carried the burden of the world on His shoulders, and if you can just imagine knowing that your death would save billions of people from hell, and your very existence cause billions to go to hell, then that was a mighty burden. But Jesus, knowing that God fulfilled all His promises, trusted in Him, and He knew He had the birthright to sit at the Father's right hand upon His death and ascension.

[JPPT1974]

Even though Jesus dreaded the pain that was expected to come.
He submitted and wanted to do the will of God.
Not His will but God's will.
And that He loved us so much He would rather die for us than live without us.

[Lpe04]

Jesus asked God to only allow the cup to pass if there was another way for it to be done. This was obviously after our Father showed Him the sufferings He was to endure.

[arunma]

I think it is more virtuous to desire God's will in spite of one's own reservations than it is to blindly obey words on a page of Scripture. This shows our Lord's infinite righteousness, and it is not sin.

[jasonlevene]

I think it is more virtuous to desire God's will in spite of one's own reservations than it is to blindly obey words on a page of Scripture. This shows our Lord's infinite righteousness, and it is not sin.

Yes I agree. But why was Jesus having reservations in the first place? Why did he ask God the Father to nullify Scripture by saving him?

It was because of his very own sin nature. Does that mean he was a sinner? No. The sin nature does not render one a sinner...gratifying the lusts of the sin nature renders one a sinner (james 1:14-15).

[arunma]

Yes desiring evil isn't sin...gratifying the desire for evil is sin (james 1:14-15). And Jesus desired evil.

I don't see how Jesus desired evil. Jesus admitted to the Father that he didn't want to die. But Jesus desired only to do God's will, as difficult as it was. And he wanted, more than anything else, to save a sinful people. Finally, Jesus provided us with an example. There isn't a day that goes by when I do not pray "not my will, Father, but yours be done." This Scripture is extremely valuable to me, and I find it inconceivable that the Lord's prayer at Gethsemane was anything but righteous. Our apostles tell us that Jesus is free of all sin, and in him is no unrighteousness. If he were unrighteous, we could not be saved in him, because the blind cannot lead the blind. But as it stands, the Lord is able to justify us by faith in his Name. How, then, could he have committed sin?

[arunma]

Yes I agree. But why was Jesus having reservations in the first place? Why did he ask God the Father to nullify Scripture by saving him?

It was because of his very own sin nature. Does that mean he was a sinner? No. The sin nature does not render one a sinner...gratifying the lusts of the sin nature renders one a sinner (james 1:14-15).

I'm sorry, it looks like you edited your post while I was responding. To answer your question, Jesus didn't ask God the Father to nullify the Scripture. On the contrary, he specifically asked the Father to fulfill it in him.

[jasonlevene]

I'm sorry, it looks like you edited your post while I was responding. To answer your question, Jesus didn't ask God the Father to nullify the Scripture. On the contrary, he specifically asked the Father to fulfill it in him.

We are in agreement. Jesus never wavered in his obedience to the Father. But by asking God the Father to take the cup away from him, he was asking God the Father to nullify the prophecies requiring him to suffer so he could continue to remain obedient. That's why he said 'not my will but yours be done'.

You see you have to understand...succumbing to the sin nature makes one a sinner. Not the sin nature by itself (James 1:14-15). Adam and Eve were originally created with the sin nature yet God called them 'very good' (Genesis 3:6 1 John 2:16).

But back to Jesus in Gethsemane...just realize that if the Father had taken the cup away from Jesus, there would have been no cross and without the cross there's no fulfillment of prophecy and without the fulfillment of prophecy, there is no YHWH.

[mlqurgw]

We are in agreement. Jesus never wavered in his obedience to the Father. But by asking God the Father to take the cup away from him, he was asking God the Father to nullify the prophecies requiring him to suffer so he could continue to remain obedient. That's why he said 'not my will but yours be done'.

You see you have to understand...succumbing to the sin nature makes one a sinner. Not the sin nature by itself (James 1:14-15). Adam and Eve were originally created with the sin nature yet God called them 'very good' (Genesis 3:6 1 John 2:16).

But back to Jesus in Gethsemane...just realize that if the Father had taken the cup away from Jesus, there would have been no cross and without the cross there's no fulfillment of prophecy and without the fulfillment of prophecy, there is no YHWH.This sounds like Christadelphian doctrine.

[arunma]

"There is no Yahweh?" How can a Christian deny the existence of God?

[jasonlevene]

"There is no Yahweh?" How can a Christian deny the existence of God?

Oh no I meant that if God the Father took the cup/cross away from Jesus, there would have been no cup/cross to fulfill the prophecies of Jesus dying on the cross and that would have nullified the deity of YHWH.

[JPPT1974]

Oh no I meant that if God the Father took the cup/cross away from Jesus, there would have been no cup/cross to fulfill the prophecies of Jesus dying on the cross and that would have nullified the deity of YHWH.

If God did take the cup away, we would be living in a lost & dying world.
And with no Savior at all.

[holyrokker]

I don't think Jesus was asking to be spared from either his sufferings, nor the cross.

When Jesus arrived at the garden he told His disciples in Matthew 26:38 "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death"

I think Jesus was praying that He WOULD make it to the cross. He didn't want to die before getting to the cross.

Luke 22:43 says that in answer to His prayer "An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him."

In John 12:27 Jesus says "Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour."

Again - Isaiah 50:6-7
"I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.
Because the Sovereign LORD helps me,
I will not be disgraced.
Therefore have I set my face like flint,
and I know I will not be put to shame."

Hebrews 10:38 speaking of Jesus says: "And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him"

No - Jesus was not contemplating "backing out".

[jasonlevene]

I don't think Jesus was asking to be spared from either his sufferings, nor the cross.

When Jesus arrived at the garden he told His disciples in Matthew 26:38 "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death"

I think Jesus was praying that He WOULD make it to the cross. He didn't want to die before getting to the cross.

Luke 22:43 says that in answer to His prayer "An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him."

In John 12:27 Jesus says "Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour."

Again - Isaiah 50:6-7
"I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.
Because the Sovereign LORD helps me,
I will not be disgraced.
Therefore have I set my face like flint,
and I know I will not be put to shame."

Hebrews 10:38 speaking of Jesus says: "And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him"

No - Jesus was not contemplating "backing out".

The difference between John 12:27 and the Gethsemane account was that Jesus was facing the cross the very next day in Gethsemane. What was happening to Jesus in Gethsemane was that the troubling of his heart in John 12:27 was magnified a million times and it overwhelmed him. That's why he said 'My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death'. Look at it like an hourglass. In John 12:27, he could deal with his sorrow because there was time. In Gethsemane, time was all but run out.

And again, if we look at Jesus' words specifically. He confirmed that it was God's will that he drink of the very same cup that he asked to have taken away from him. Doesn't this confirm that he wanted God's will nullified.

[arunma]

Oh no I meant that if God the Father took the cup/cross away from Jesus, there would have been no cup/cross to fulfill the prophecies of Jesus dying on the cross and that would have nullified the deity of YHWH.

But Jesus did drink the cup of his Father's wrath. So I'm not sure what issue you're trying to raise.

[jasonlevene]

But Jesus did drink the cup of his Father's wrath. So I'm not sure what issue you're trying to raise.

The issue I'm raising is that the Gethsemane accounts prove Jesus did not want to drink of the cup and thus fulfill the Father's prophecies. Would you agree with this?

[holyrokker]

I disagree.

[JPPT1974]

Despite what Jesus had to face during the pain & loneliness on the cross.
He know He had to do what the Father expected of Him.
Because our salvation and eternity were on the line.

[holyrokker]

Even more than what the Father expected, the very reason Jesus came to Earth was to die on the cross. He knew His whole life that He would do it. He did it by His own choice. It was His very plan to do so.

I can't believe that He "chickened" out at the last minute, suddenly realizing the torture He would endure, pleading with the Father not to go through with it. It doesn't match His character.

There must be another explanation of the prayer "Take this cup from me."

That's why I think, as I explained a few posts back, that He was already near the point of death and was pleadig with the Father not to allow Him to die before getting to the cross.

[jasonlevene]

Even more than what the Father expected, the very reason Jesus came to Earth was to die on the cross. He knew His whole life that He would do it. He did it by His own choice. It was His very plan to do so.

I can't believe that He "chickened" out at the last minute, suddenly realizing the torture He would endure, pleading with the Father not to go through with it. It doesn't match His character.

There must be another explanation of the prayer "Take this cup from me."

That's why I think, as I explained a few posts back, that He was already near the point of death and was pleadig with the Father not to allow Him to die before getting to the cross.

Jesus' words in the Gethsemane account confirm that he did not want to endure the suffering that awaited him. He wanted God the Father to take the cup away from him but concluded in Matthew 26:42 that that was impossible.

Jesus didn't chicken out. That would have been sin. He wanted God the Father to let him chicken out and that's different. He never followed his own will. You see the way I figure, in order for Jesus to have been obedient to God he had to desire the opposite of what God wanted. He had to desire evil and reject it. It's how Jesus defeated the sin nature...by submitting to death on the cross (Romans 6). That's what Gethsemane was all about.

Jesus deciding to obey God and fulfill his will rather than obeying the desires of his flesh.

[53Isaiah]

Jesus was teaching us even in his final hours…

Mt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[holyrokker]

Jesus' words in the Gethsemane account confirm that he did not want to endure the suffering that awaited him. He wanted God the Father to take the cup away from him but concluded in Matthew 26:42 that that was impossible.

Jesus didn't chicken out. That would have been sin. He wanted God the Father to let him chicken out and that's different. He never followed his own will. You see the way I figure, in order for Jesus to have been obedient to God he had to desire the opposite of what God wanted. He had to desire evil and reject it. It's how Jesus defeated the sin nature...by submitting to death on the cross (Romans 6). That's what Gethsemane was all about.

Jesus deciding to obey God and fulfill his will rather than obeying the desires of his flesh.

The point I'm trying to make is that this "cup" could have been something OTHER than what you are assuming.

It's possible that this "cup" was His immediate situation, that being fatigue and already near death.

It's possible that He was praying to be delivered from death prior to the cross, but was willing to do whatever the Father willed.

[jasonlevene]

The point I'm trying to make is that this "cup" could have been something OTHER than what you are assuming.

It's possible that this "cup" was His immediate situation, that being fatigue and already near death.

It's possible that He was praying to be delivered from death prior to the cross, but was willing to do whatever the Father willed.

The cup had to be something he didn't want but then forced himself to want. Only physical suffering makes sense. And he said the disciples were going to drink from the very same cup (Matt. 20:23). They were to suffer for the will of God...just as he was to do. Maybe it's not really out of character for Jesus to chicken out...just out of our perception of his character.

And I just came up with this formula for what Jesus went through in Gethsemane...let me know if you think it's off base:

1. It was God's will that Jesus drink of the cup.
2. Jesus did not want to drink from the cup (Take the cup away from me).
3.Jesus thus did not want to fulfill God's will. He wanted God's will nullified.
4.Jesus thus in this way desired evil.

What do you think?

[JPPT1974]

Jesus said not His Will but the Father's Will
He was doing so for our salvation
As our eternal salvation was at stake
And that back then the world was living in sin
And they were in need of a Savior & Lord