Christ is NOT God. He is an HEIR of God!

[edpobre]

Friends,

Galatians 4:4-7 teach us that God SENT Jesus to REDEEM those under the law that they may RECEIVE the adoption as SONS (v. 4-5). These sons hve the SPIRIT of Christ in their hearts (v. 6). As a SON, one becomes HEIR of God THROUGH Christ (v. 7).

Galatians 3:26-29 teach us that people can become sons of God through FAITH in Christ (v. 26). Those who have FAITH in Christ are BAPTIZED INTO Christ and put on Christ (v. 27). Having been BAPTIZED INTO Christ, they become ONE in Christ or IN UNION with Christ (v. 2:cool: . Those who are IN Christ or IN UNION with Christ, BELONG to Christ and are therefore, Abraham's SEED. As such, they become HEIRS according to the PROMISE (v. 29).

Titus 3:5-7 teach us that one is SAVED through the WASHING of regeneration and RENEWING of the Holy Spirit (v.5) THROUGH Jesus (V. 6). Those that have been WASHED are JUSTIFIED by God's grace and become HEIRS according to the HOPE of ETERNAL LIFE (v. 7).

Romans 8:17 teaches us that CHILDREN of God are HEIRS of God and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ according to the PROMISE (Gal. 3:29) and according to the HOPE of ETERNAL LIFE (Titus 3:7).

If Christ were God, why is he an HEIR of God according to God's PROMISE and HOPE of ETERNAL LIFE?

If Christ were God and children of God are JOINT-HEIRS with him, doesn't that make ALL children of God ALSO Gods?

Ed

[BlalronResurrected]

If Christ were God, why is he an HEIR of God according to God's PROMISE and HOPE of ETERNAL LIFE?

Because He is. Why can't God be an heir to himself? Read Psalms 45, and 110. :)

If Christ were God and children of God are JOINT-HEIRS with him, doesn't that make ALL children of God ALSO Gods?

No. Why would it?

[fingermeelmo]

Blah, blah blah.... Jesus said something in John along the lines of,

"Believe in me because of the works I do, for in that way God and I are one, through the Holy Spirit".

Jesus = a man, the Son of Man.
God = God.
Holy Spirit = works through which God was revealed through Jesus.
Jesus = Son of God.

The Son of God is what Jesus saw himself to be, and knew himself to be, and the Son of Man is what everyone else saw him as... Understand now???????????? Ie., "The Son of Man will be crucified once we get to Jerusalem", ect. "I am the Son of God".

The entire ministry of Jesus is based on Jesus being an example for everyone to follow. He wanted to do away with hypocrisy and establish better moral guidlines for everyone to follow through the use of a taoist-like philosophy. In that way, it is said, he died for our sins. He was a very honorable person. He knew that if he was guilty of commiting some crime, and that if crucifixion was the punishment for such a crime, that in order to retain his honor he would have to be crucified, and so he was, so that we would follow his example to this day. He wanted to show us that it IS possible to retain purity and honor through God, as for through God nothing is possible (I AM AN ATHEIST I AM JUST QUOTING HIM!). He said you can move a "mountain" (ie., SIN, the ego, ect., to become a better person) if only you believe. That's all you have to do.

Any questions?

NOTE: I am a secular taoist so I do not believe in God or any of the supernatural crap in the Bible, I'm just trying to point something out to everyone here.

[fingermeelmo]

"as for through God nothing is possible"

I meant to say, "as for through God nothing is IMpossible".

[BlalronResurrected]

finger, your quote seems to me to be a little off. I've read the gospels many many times and don't remember that being there. Maybe you were trying to paraphrase? :)

[fingermeelmo]

I said, "ALONG THE LINES OF"

[Josephus]

ed, didn't Jesus say to the Pharisees that we are all "gods" - refering to a verse in the old testament?

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote: ed, didn't Jesus say to the Pharisees that we are all "gods" - refering to a verse in the old testament?

You're right. Jesus did say that. But we are talking of the ONLY true God, not "gods". The Jehovah Witnesses consider Jesus as a "god" along with the other "gods" of the world like money, pride, kings, mobsters, etc.

The TRUTH is that Jesus is Abraham's SEED (a MAN) with whom God made a lasting covenant (Gen. 17:7; Gal. 3:16). All children of God are found in the BODY of Christ of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:1:cool: . That's the reason why children of God are JOINT-HEIRS with Christ according to the PROMISE and the HOPE of eternal life.

Ed

[BlalronResurrected]

The TRUTH is that Jesus is Abraham's SEED (a MAN) with whom God made a lasting covenant (Gen. 17:7; Gal. 3:16).

I agree, Ed. Jesus is a MAN.

All children of God are found in the BODY of Christ of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:1)

That's where you and I differ. I believe that everyone who believes is in the body of Christ. Many verses say that whosoever believes in Jesus will not perish, but have everlasting life. To avoid those verses being untruthfull, "Whosoever" would have to include somebody stuck on an island who can't go to church but still believes. Or else the "whosoever" is not truthfull.


That's the reason why children of God are JOINT-HEIRS with Christ according to the PROMISE and the HOPE of eternal life

The Son, being the heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2), would indeed be an heir with us, thus making us join-heirs.

I fully agree with you on that.

[LouisBooth]

Ed, in Galatians Paul clearly shows that Jesus is God. Look at verse 1:1

"Paul, an apostle-sent NOT from men NOR by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Fahter..."

That clearly says that Jesus is God like God the Father is.

In titus he didn't address this because it was a very focused letter and the issue he was writting to had nothing to do with the diety of christ, they already believed that.

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

Michael is right. You don't really know what you are saying. Why don't you check other verses first before you post so you won't make postle Paul a liar?

Look at Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; Col. 1:2 God the Father is definitely separate and distinct from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Look at Eph. 1:3. God is God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ.

Look at Col. 1:3. God is God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ.

Even apostle Peter wrote that God is God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3).

Apostle Paul wrote the Corinthians that there is ONLY ONE God and that is the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6). Apostle Paul also wrote that Jesus is a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5).

Isn't there any end to your LYING Louis?

Ed

[edpobre]

Blalron,

You wrote: That's where you and I differ. I believe that everyone who believes is in the body of Christ. Many verses say that whosoever believes in Jesus will not perish, but have everlasting life. To avoid those verses being untruthfull, "Whosoever" would have to include somebody stuck on an island who can't go to church but still believes. Or else the "whosoever" is not truthfull.

While it is true that "whosoever believes in him shall not perish," TRUE believers are found ONLY in the Iglesia Ni Cristo (the ONLY true church of Christ).

Your belief that "everyone who believes is in the body of Christ" is an indication that you are in a FALSE body of Christ. Most people who adhere to this belief are Trinitarians who do NOT abide or stay in the doctrine of Christ that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Apostle John says "whosoever transgresses and does NOT abide in the doctrine of God DOES NOT HAVE God" (2 John 9).

Now tell me my friend, can anyone who DOES NOT HAVE God be in the TRUE body of Christ?

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"Why don't you check other verses first before you post so you won't make postle Paul a liar?"

:lol: I have with people that have studied the text longer then I have been alive.

"Look at Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; Col. 1:2 God the Father is definitely separate and distinct from our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Exactly! that's what trinity is. They are distinct AND the same because the bible says BOTH.

"Isn't there any end to your LYING Louis?"

I just quoted you a verse ed. Its you that don't believe the bible. I think Paul made it quite clear that he doesn't think Jesus is just a man else he would not have said that in his letter. Nor would have have said christ has the nature of God, or that he was diety incarnate.

[ZoneChaos]

While it is true that "whosoever believes in him shall not perish," TRUE believers are found ONLY in the Iglesia Ni Cristo (the ONLY true church of Christ).


So.. that person would become a member of the INC, If God showed the guy who He was, correct?

[edpobre]

ZoneChaos,

Please elaborate on your question. As it is, I don't know ht you are driving at.

Ed

[Josephus]

Well ed, our life is indeed the breath "of" God. Though we are not God himself, we are of God. He made us from nothing, and breathed his life into us. Agreed? :)

I am just trying to make clear a point that we are in a sense beings of eternal existence, of the life of God, but clearly we are not God. Our spirits are totally seperate and distinct from God's Spirit, but we are "related" - and we are "adopted" as his immediate family when we are saved and make Him Lord.

[ZoneChaos]

What I am asking is.. if God showed a man who He was... and the man then beleived... would that Man be a member of the INC?

[epobre]

Josephus,

You wrote:[.b] I am just trying to make clear a point that we are in a sense beings of eternal existence, of the life of God, but clearly we are not God. Our spirits are totally seperate and distinct from God's Spirit, but we are "related" - and we are "adopted" as his immediate family when we are saved and make Him Lord.

Your belief is non-Biblical and therefore FALSE! Gal. 4:4-5 tells us that God "sent His son to REDEEM those under the law that they may RECEIVE ADOPTION as sons."

Thus, "adoption as son" comes first before "salvation." As "sons of God, we become HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life" (Gal. 4:7).

Apostle Paul writes that God delivers people from the power of darkness and translates (transfers) them to the kingdom of His son in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of " (Col. 1:13-14).

From these verses we can UNDERSTAND that to become HEIRS and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ, we MUST be DELIVERED from the world (OUTSIDE) and TRRANSFERRED to the KINGDOM of His Son (INSIDE) in order to be REDEEMED through Christ's blood.

The KINGDOM is the CHURCH which Christ PURCHASED (redeemed) with his own blood (Acts 20:2:cool: . The CHURCH is Christ's BODY and Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:1:cool: . Thus, one becomes an HEIR and Joint-HEIR with Christ by being INSIDE Christ's BODY and REDEEMED by his blood.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"Thus, "adoption as son" comes first before "salvation." "

Hate to tell ya ed, but that statement is not biblical.

[BlalronResurrected]

The KINGDOM is the CHURCH which Christ PURCHASED (redeemed) with his own blood (Acts 20:2)

Yep. And if you believe, you are automatically in his church. :) Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

[epobre]

Blalron,

You wrote: Yep. And if you believe, you are automatically in his church. Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believe what?

Ed

[The Squalid Wanderer]

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth." 1 Timothy 2:5-7

Now a mediator ought to have communion with both parties, between whom he is to mediate. For this is the property of a mediator, to be in close communion with each of those whose mediator he is. For he would be no longer a mediator, if he were connected with one but separated from the other. If therefore He partakes not of the nature of the Father, He is not a Mediator, but is separated. For as He is partaker of the nature of men, because He came to men, so is He partaker of the nature of God, because He came from God. Because He was to mediate between two natures, He must approximate to the two natures; for as the place situated between two others is joined to each place, so must that between natures be joined to either nature. As therefore He became Man, so was He also God. A man could not have become a mediator, because he must also plead with God. God could not have been mediator, since those could not receive Him, toward whom He should have mediated. And as elsewhere he says, "There is one God the Father, ... and one Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 8:6); so also here "One" God, and "One" Mediator; he does not say two; for he would not have that number wrested to Polytheism, of which he was speaking. So he wrote "One" and "One." You see how accurate are the expressions of Scripture! For though one and one are two, we are not to say this, though reason suggests it. And here thou sayest not one and one are two, and yet thou sayest what reason does not suggest. "If He begat He also suffered." "For there is one God," he says, "and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (HOMILY VII. - Saint John Chrysostom)

[The Squalid Wanderer]

The most conclusive verse of scripture for the Orthodox position is John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one."

In addition to this there are many scriptures which attribute divine attributes to Christ.

Onmipresence - Mt. 118:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13

Self-existence - Jn 5:26

Eternity - Jn 8:58; Jn 17:5

Equality with God - Jn 10:27-30

Divine knowledge - Mt 11:27; Jn 10:15

Christ even claims for himself the divine name in Jn 8:58 and other passages throughout the Gospel of John with the expression I AM (Ex 3:13,14

Finally, read the first chapter of the Gospel of John, it conclusively says that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God.

[epobre]

Desmios,

1 Tim. 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men."

You have just violated one of God's commands by subtracting from 1 Tim. 2:5 the phrase, "the MAN Christ Jesus." Why my friend? Hasn't anybody told you NOT to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from the word of God?

Think about this my friend. When apostle Paul wrote 1 Tim. 2:5, where was Jesus? Wasn't Jesus already in heaven? If that is the case, don't you believe that apostle Paul was telling the TRUTH when he said the the "only mediator between God and men" is the MAN Christ Jesus who was then and is NOW in heaven?

I don't have to respond to the remainder of your post regarding this issue because it is moot and academic. Apostle Paul has declared that the ONLY ONE who is MEDIATING for us NOW is the MAN Christ Jesus and he is in heaven.

The most conclusive verse of scripture for the Orthodox position is John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one."

WITHOUT adding anything to John 10:30, it does NOT support the belief that Jesus is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the FATHER. Other than the Trinitarian interpretation that Jesus and the Father are one...God, this verse could also mean that Jesus and the Father are one...shepherd, considering the CONTEXT.

In addition to this there are many scriptures which attribute divine attributes to Christ.

Onmipresence - Mt. 118:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13

Self-existence - Jn 5:26

Eternity - Jn 8:58; Jn 17:5

Equality with God - Jn 10:27-30

Divine knowledge - Mt 11:27; Jn 10:15

Christ even claims for himself the divine name in Jn 8:58 and other passages throughout the Gospel of John with the expression I AM (Ex 3:13,14)

These verses do NOT explicitly tell us that Jesus is God and could be interpreted in more than one way.

On the other hand, John 8:40 EXPLICITLY tells us that Jesus is a MAN and John 17:3 EXPLICITLY tell us that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE God. There is NO OTHER interpretation that could be ascribed to these verses.

Finally, read the first chapter of the Gospel of John, it conclusively says that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God.

John 1:1 and the first part of John 1:14 do NOT refer to Jesus. Consider the following my friend and answer them sincerely and HONESTLY:

1) Do you believe that EVERYTHING apostle John wrote is TRUE (John 21:24)?

2) Do you believe that EVERYTHING Jesus said is TRUE (John 14:6)?

3) Do you believe that EVERYTHING Jesus said is a COMMAND from God (John 12:49)?

4) Do you believe that apostle John and 500 others SAW Jesus AFTER he was raised from the dead (1 Cor. 15:5-:cool: ?

If you answered YES to this questions, then apostle John DID NOT BELIEVE that Jesus is God. You know why? Because he wrote in John 1:18 that "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time."

Either your interpretation of John 1:1 and John 1:14 (word became man) is FALSE or John was telling a LIE when he wrote "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at any time" in John 1:18.

I don't believe John was telling a LIE my friend. Do you?

Ed

[The Squalid Wanderer]

If I were to follow your argument to it's logical extent I would be unable to quote anything from Scripture without posting the entire Scripture. The division of chapters and verses is not inspired, therefore I am not obligated to follow them.

However, so that you may be able to intelligently address the post, I will edit it so as to add the segment you mentioned.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

I posted a response to your John 1:18 argument on another thread, but will repost it here for your convenience:

Actually, I believe John 1:18 would be militated against you...

For if Christ were only man, then he would not have seen God, and therefore would not have been able to declare Him to us. But because Christ is the Word which became flesh and dwelt among us He is the only one who is qualified to declare God to us, because as God, Christ is the only one who could fully know God.

As for Christ not being the Word, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth...For the law as given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus ChristJohn 1:14,17

Also, please note that it is not a problem for orthodox Christians to say that Jesus Christ is a man, for He is one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one essence with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one essence with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and being, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

[epobre]

Desmios,

Actually, I believe John 1:18 would be militated against you...

For if Christ were only man, then he would not have seen God, and therefore would not have been able to declare Him to us. But because Christ is the Word which became flesh and dwelt among us He is the only one who is qualified to declare God to us, because as God, Christ is the only one who could fully know God.

Are you saying that Jesus was telling a LIE when he said he is a MAN (John 8:40)? And if indeed apostle John BELIEVED that Jesus is God, are you saying that he LIED when he wrote, "NO ONE (including himself) has SEEN God (Jesus) at any time"?

And where can we find the verse that says Jesus SAW God? And if Jesus is the ONLY ONE who is qualified to declare God to us, why would you THINK that apostle John would IMPLY that the WORD that was God and became MAN is Jesus?

For your information, Jesus declared that NO ONE knows WHO the son is but the Father and NO ONE knows WHO the Father is but the son and to whom the son wills to reveal Him (Luke 10:22).

The SON has declared that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Apostle John heard this and he wrote it. Do you THINK apostle John would IMPLY that Jesus is God after hearing Jesus say that the FATHER is the ONLY TRUE God?

Ed

[The Squalid Wanderer]

What I am saying is that you are suffering under a false dilemma, that Jesus Christ cannot be God and Man.

[epobre]

Desmios,

What I am saying is that you are suffering under a false dilemma, that Jesus Christ cannot be God and Man.
Christ within me, Christ before me, Christ

Why do you say I'm suffering under a dilemma (true or false) that Jesus cannot be God and man? I'm NOT in any kind of dilemma at all because I'm CERTAIN, based on Jesus' words himself, that Jesus is a MAN and CANNOT be God.

Consider the following:

1) God says MAN is FLESH (Gen. 6:3);
2) Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40);
3) Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3);
4) Jesus says God is SPIRIT (John 4:24);
5) Jesus says a SPIRIT (God included) does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39);
6) Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 2:5 (AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven) that there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus.

Anyone who makes Jesus God MAKES Jesus and his apostles LIARS. And this CANNOT be!

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"1) God says MAN is FLESH (Gen. 6:3);
2) Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40);
3) Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3);
4) Jesus says God is SPIRIT (John 4:24);
5) Jesus says a SPIRIT (God included) does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39);
6) Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 2:5 (AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven) that there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus. "

okay, Yup, I agree with 1, 2, 4 and 6. The assertions you make in 3 ad 5 are wrong. It never says the father is the one and only God. In Luke 24:39 it says nothing about God being a spirit or not having flesh in comparison to himself (the risen Christ). Jesus is God as the bible repeatly shows. Col 2:9 being the easiest to understand. Phil 2:5-8 also. Jesus shows that he is God in Luke chapter 5 and says it many other places. John chapter 1 shows how God became man.

[ZoneChaos]

Ed.. as alwasy you have failed ot show us that Only The Father is the One true God. And you have faled ot show us that Jesus Cannot be God.

[epobre]

LouisBooth,

1) God says MAN is FLESH (Gen. 6:3);
2) Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40);
3) Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3);
4) Jesus says God is SPIRIT (John 4:24);
5) Jesus says a SPIRIT (God included) does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39);
6) Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 2:5 (AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven) that there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus. "

okay, Yup, I agree with 1, 2, 4 and 6. The assertions you make in 3 ad 5 are wrong. It never says the father is the one and only God. In Luke 24:39 it says nothing about God being a spirit or not having flesh in comparison to himself (the risen Christ). Jesus is God as the bible repeatly shows. Col 2:9 being the easiest to understand. Phil 2:5-8 also. Jesus shows that he is God in Luke chapter 5 and says it many other places. John chapter 1 shows how God became man.

Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 17:3 EXACTLY means that the FATHER is the ONE and ONLY God. Cross-reference this with Is. 44:8; Is. 46:9; Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8; Mal. 2:10 and 1 Cor. 8:6. These verses tell us that there is ONLY ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER.

Any RATIONAL person will agree that Luke 24:39 COMPARES God who is SPIRIT (John 4:24) with the MAN Jesus (John 8:40) who has FLESH and bones. While God is not mentioned in this verse, there is NO doubt that when Jesus says SPIRIT, it includes God. Only a BLIND FANATIC cannot see this.

You AGREE that 1 Tim. 2:5 was written AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven. Can't you understand what apostle Paul is telling us about WHAT Jesus is NOT?

If you FAIL to understand what these verses TRULY mean, and they are very easy to understand, I can't see how you could understand what apostle Paul wrote in Colossian 2:9 and Phil. 2:5-8 considering that Paul's letters are HARD to understand and UNSTABLE and UNTAUGHT men TWIST to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

Ed

[epobre]

ZoneChaos,

Since you think like LouisBooth, I'm posting the SAME reply to your post. Here goes:

1) God says MAN is FLESH (Gen. 6:3);
2) Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40);
3) Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3);
4) Jesus says God is SPIRIT (John 4:24);
5) Jesus says a SPIRIT (God included) does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39);
6) Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 2:5 (AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven) that there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus. "

Louis' writes: okay, Yup, I agree with 1, 2, 4 and 6. The assertions you make in 3 ad 5 are wrong. It never says the father is the one and only God. In Luke 24:39 it says nothing about God being a spirit or not having flesh in comparison to himself (the risen Christ). Jesus is God as the bible repeatly shows. Col 2:9 being the easiest to understand. Phil 2:5-8 also. Jesus shows that he is God in Luke chapter 5 and says it many other places. John chapter 1 shows how God became man.

Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 17:3 EXACTLY means that the FATHER is the ONE and ONLY God. Cross-reference this with Is. 44:8; Is. 46:9; Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8; Mal. 2:10 and 1 Cor. 8:6. These verses tell us that there is ONLY ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER.

Any RATIONAL person will agree that Luke 24:39 COMPARES God who is SPIRIT (John 4:24) with the MAN Jesus (John 8:40) who has FLESH and bones. While God is not mentioned in this verse, there is NO doubt that when Jesus says SPIRIT, it includes God. Only a BLIND FANATIC cannot see this.

You AGREE that 1 Tim. 2:5 was written AFTER Jesus ASCENDED to heaven. Can't you understand what apostle Paul is telling us about WHAT Jesus is NOT?

If you FAIL to understand what these verses TRULY mean, and they are very easy to understand, I can't see how you could understand what apostle Paul wrote in Colossian 2:9 and Phil. 2:5-8 considering that Paul's letters are HARD to understand and UNSTABLE and UNTAUGHT men TWIST to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

Ed

[nevetstrebla]

I haven't been partaking in any of the discussions here for a while because every single topic is the same. I was hoping that you all would find something else to discuss. Anyway, is Jesus God? Well, most of us have studied the scriptures and know that He is indeed, but there are those who are unaware.

There are many instances in the Word of God where we find that Jesus was God. Consider when Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:5-7: Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Why would Jesus say, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God," if He was not God Himself?

[Blackhawk]

nevetstrebla,

This topic will never end. I hoped for an end to for a long time but I gave up hope. The problem with it is that is very hard to discuss anything else about christendom if you disagree about this point. It seems to just pop up again and again.

blackhaw

[BlalronResurrected]

Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 17:3 EXACTLY means that the FATHER is the ONE and ONLY God.

Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 1 says that the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God, and the WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONGST US! :)

Cross-reference this with Is. 44:8; Is. 46:9; Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8; Mal. 2:10 and 1 Cor. 8:6. These verses tell us that there is ONLY ONE God

Ed, we believe that there is only one God. Please try and understand that.

I care for you Ed, and I'll continue to pray that God leads you to the truth.

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Your criticisms have been answered, your proofs refuted. I see now that no amount of explaining from myself will change your beliefs.

Read over my posts again for your responses to them are weak and insufficient. I will not reply to this again seeing that you have not yet disproved the arguments I have already posted.

[ZoneChaos]

Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 17:3 EXACTLY means that the FATHER is the ONE and ONLY God.

True. So do I. I have toild you that. I agree with what this verse says. This verse does not say that only the Father is the one and only God.

These verses tell us that there is ONLY ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER.


I agree with this to. I know there is only one God. I know that the Father is the only one God. You are not talling me anything that I do not already know to be true, and accept to be true.

BUt what you have also claimed, which you have yet to show, is that Only the Father, and not the Son or the Spirit, is the Only one true God.

Any RATIONAL person will agree that Luke 24:39 COMPARES God who is SPIRIT (John 4:24)

Did the Apostles think they were seeing the Holy Spirit of God when Jesus appeared to them? Or did they think they were seeing, what Humans have always been afraid of, since they were children.. a ghost? Did they think they were seeing "the Spirit" or "a spirit"?

Your truth hinges on the answer.

[BlalronResurrected]

Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 17:3 EXACTLY means that the FATHER is the ONE and ONLY God.

Ed, do you notice the "AND Jesus Christ" part of that verse? Of course you don't. :)

If we know in advance that they are both God, and they are both the same God, then it doesn't produce any conflict.

My Left brain is my brain. My Right Brain is my brain. But they aren't two brains, they are ONE brain. So if my left brain said to my right brain "I want people to know you as the only true brain, AND the left brain whom you have sent" it doesn't mean that my left brain isn't also my brain, does it?

Any RATIONAL person will agree that Luke 24:39 COMPARES God who is SPIRIT (John 4:24)

He is Spirit, but is he a GHOST? Because in Luke 24:39 they didn't think they saw God, they thought that they saw a GHOST. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Tell me, Ed, can a SPIRIT appear as a BURNING BUSH? How then did God appear as one to Moses? :)

Only a BLIND FANATIC cannot see this.

Ed?

Never mind. :)

[epobre]

nevetstrebla,

There are many instances in the Word of God where we find that Jesus was God. Consider when Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:5-7: Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Why would Jesus say, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God," if He was not God Himself?

Jesus was NOT referring to himself when he said this. The devil was quoting Psalm 91:11-12 and Jesus answered the devil by quoting Deut. 6:16 in return. To understand these verses better, I suggest you read the Today's English Version (TEV) of Matt. 4:7 and Deut. 6:16 where the word "test" is used instead of "tempt" referring to what the devil said about God ordering His angels to bear him up.

This issue will NEVER end for as long as people STRIVE to find ways and means to PROVE Jesus WRONG! Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Why can't people BELIEVE Jesus and take his word at face value?

Ed

[epobre]

Blalron,

Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 1 says that the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God, and the WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONGST US!

But ONLY a FOOLISH man would THINK that Jesus was the God that BECAME Jesus the MAN or FLESH that dwells amongst us.

Consider this Blalron. If apostle John truly believed as you do that the WORD that was God is Jesus that became flesh thereby making Jesus the MAN God, he wouldn't have written John 1:18 where he wrote that "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time." He would then be LYING because he SAW Jesus who you THINK is God many many times while Jesus was on earth.

Ed

[LouisBooth]

"Any RATIONAL person will agree that John 17:3 EXACTLY means that the FATHER is the ONE and ONLY God."

:lol: again ed, you are inserting your view onto the bible. don't do that, its wrong. It doesn't say that :) It says God and it means GOD.

"Any RATIONAL person will agree that Luke 24:39 COMPARES God who is SPIRIT (John 4:24) with the MAN Jesus (John 8:40) who has FLESH and bones. "

Again here you are inserting your thoughts into the bible. This is wrong. Read the text for what it says, not what you say. It doesn't compare at all, it compares to a ghost, the same that when he appeared to them walking on water.

"Can't you understand what apostle Paul is telling us about WHAT Jesus is NOT?"

First of all 1 tim 2:5 doesn't imply Jesus is not God. Since all man have fallen according to Paul, who else but God can medicate between him and us. I also think its funny that you don't look at the previous verse.

1 tim 2:3 " This is good and pleases God our Savior." Umm..Jesus is our savior..so there ya have it again...Jesus is God. :)