What does Col. 2:9 mean to you? [Archive]

edpobre

25th December 2001, 11:34 PM

According to Blalron, Strong's definition of Godhead is the state of being God. What does "state of being God" mean?

Col. 2:9 states: "In him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily." If we take Strong's definition and substitute it for Godhead, it would read like this: "In him dwells the fullness of the "state of being God" bodily." If "state of being God" means God, why didn't Paul simply say "in him dwells the fullness of God bodily?" And even if Paul wrote the verse this way, the follow-up question is, what is the "fullness of God" that dwells in Christ bodily? Does that mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (fullness of Godhead or Trinity) dwells in Christ? Then would it be correct to say that Christ is the Father, Christ is the Son and Christ is the Holy Spirit and Christ is God?

I believe that "state of being God" means the "nature of God" or "nature that proceeds directly from God" or "divine nature" and this "divine nature" dwells in Christ bodily.

To test the validity of this interpretation, let us see how the Today's English Verion (TEV) renders this verse: "For the full content of DIVINE NATURE lives in Christ, in his humanity."

I vote a resounding NO!

Ed

Blackhawk

26th December 2001, 01:23 PM

ed,
Look at the 1st definition.

2320 theotes {theh-ot'-ace}

from 2316; TDNT - 3:119,322; n f

AV - Godhead 1; 1
1)DEITY
1a) the state of being God, Godhead

Can deity mean something besides He is God?

For we have the Bodily is the greek word.

4985 somatikos

1) bodily, corporally

So Jesus is God in the flesh or Emmaneul or is it Immanuel. I do not know why there is 2 spellings for it.

You can believe what you want Ed but Paul was clear. Jesus is God (the one and only Deity) in an earthly, physical, and bodily form.

Blackhaw

edpobre

26th December 2001, 05:31 PM

Blackhaw,

You wrote: ed,
Look at the 1st definition.

2320 theotes {theh-ot'-ace}

from 2316; TDNT - 3:119,322; n f

AV - Godhead 1; 1
1)DEITY
1a) the state of being God, Godhead

Can deity mean something besides He is God?

For we have the Bodily is the greek word.

4985 somatikos

1) bodily, corporally

So Jesus is God in the flesh or Emmaneul or is it Immanuel. I do not know why there is 2 spellings for it.

Granted that "Godhead" means "Deity," that still does NOT make Jesus God. The verse says "in him DWELLS the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily." Substituting "DEITY" for "Godhead," the verse would read, thus: "in him DWELLS the FULLNESS of the DEITY bodily."

In that case, why didn't Paul simply say "in him dwells the FULLNESS of GOD bodily?" And even if Paul wrote the verse this way, the follow-up question is, what is the "FULLNESS of GOD" that dwells in Christ bodily? Does that mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (fullness of Godhead or Trinity) dwells in Christ? Then would it be correct to say that Christ is the Father, Christ is the Son and Christ is the Holy Spirit and Christ is God?

You wrote: You can believe what you want Ed but Paul was clear. Jesus is God (the one and only Deity) in an earthly, physical, and bodily form.

If Jesus is God (the one and only DEITY) in an earthly, physical and bodily form, what is the FATHER? Isn't the FATHER the ONLY true God (John 17:3) according to Jesus?

Ed

Josephus

26th December 2001, 05:57 PM

"Then would it be correct to say that Christ is the Father, Christ is the Son and Christ is the Holy Spirit and Christ is God?"

Absolutely!

I usually put it: the spirit of Jesus who lived in him and was indeed him - just as we are also identified by our spirits, the spirit of the body of Jesus is God - that same God who is also the Father and Creator of all, the same God who is also the Holy Spirit that is with us today. All the fullness of God in bodily form!

BlalronResurrected

26th December 2001, 06:02 PM

Ed.

Why is that word used only once in the entire New Testament, and in reference to Jesus? Doesn't it tell you something?

If Jesus is God (the one and only DEITY) in an earthly, physical and bodily form, what is the FATHER? Isn't the FATHER the ONLY true God (John 17:3) according to Jesus?

Yes, Ed. The Father is the only true God, and Jesus Christ, who he has sent. :) Jesus could have easily said that the Father ALONE is the only true God, but he did not.

Why is Jesus called the true God and eternal life in 1 John 5:20? How did God shed his blood in Acts 20:28?

Blackhawk

26th December 2001, 08:17 PM

ed,

"in him DWELLS the FULLNESS of the DEITY bodily."

That pretty much says it all. How can a mere man posses the fullness of the deity bodily? How can all of God be in a man yet that man is not God?

"In that case, why didn't Paul simply say "in him dwells the FULLNESS of GOD bodily?"

What is the difference? What makes the word Godhead so different? What is the Godhead?

Blackhaw

joesnuff

26th December 2001, 10:26 PM

""in him DWELLS the FULLNESS of the DEITY bodily."

In that case, why didn't Paul simply say "in him dwells the FULLNESS of GOD bodily?" And even if Paul wrote the verse this way, the follow-up question is, what is the "FULLNESS of GOD" that dwells in Christ bodily? Does that mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (fullness of Godhead or Trinity) dwells in Christ? Then would it be correct to say that Christ is the Father, Christ is the Son and Christ is the Holy Spirit and Christ is God?"

Paul's language, particularly in the benedictions, constantly distinguishes between the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father. He also differentiates between Jesus Christ and mortal men, cf. Galatians 1:1 - "Paul, an apostle -- sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father." Paul never intends to say the full personage of the Father is the same as the son. They are one only insofar as in purpose and equality of divine titles. The point of Colossians 2:9 may be to set the reality of Christ over and above the shadows of the Old Testament. In the old covenant, the presence of God dwelled between the cherubim, in a cloud which covered the mercy-seat. But now it dwells in the person of Christ, who declares the Father more clearly to us in his words and in his person, and he does so bodily: ie really and not figuratively. The fulness of deity dwells in Christ and as such he is both God and man... the language is very non-figurative and John 1:1-14 should be treated the same because of the parallel concept.

Michael

26th December 2001, 10:42 PM

>>"Then would it be correct to say that Christ is the Father, Christ is the Son and Christ is the Holy Spirit and Christ is God?"

Actually it would correct to say :"Christ is *IN* the Father, Christ is *IN* the Son and Christ is *IN* the Holy Spirit and Christ is *IN* God". As Jesus said we are all one *IN* God.

LouisBooth

27th December 2001, 01:54 AM

Actaully Michael, the verse you are using you are taking out of context. The context of the verse was fellowship, not actual exsistance. Read the passage again :) Col 2:9 on the other hand was was directly talking about theology and who the Christ really was. It shows that in the previous verse by Paul stateing, "see to it that no one take syou captive through hollow and dexeptive philospohy..." he then tells them the truth, that Jesus was Deity incarnate, ie Jesus is God in flesh.

WWJD777

27th December 2001, 03:10 AM

However, check the capitalization. the word "him" isn't reffering to Christ. However, Christ is the savior. Check Isa. 9:6, and compare it to the life of Christ. It has been astablished that Christ fullfilled ever prophecey in the Bible about the Messiah. e-mail me personally at drrmjordan23@msn.com. please. My AIM is WWJD777

edpobre

27th December 2001, 11:51 PM

Josephus,

I wrote:"Then would it be correct to say that Christ is the Father, Christ is the Son and Christ is the Holy Spirit and Christ is God?"

You wrote:Absolutely!

I usually put it: the spirit of Jesus who lived in him and was indeed him - just as we are also identified by our spirits, the spirit of the body of Jesus is God - that same God who is also the Father and Creator of all, the same God who is also the Holy Spirit that is with us today. All the fullness of God in bodily form!

Then tell me my friend. Is it okay to DISREGARD (reject might be the more appropriate term) what Jesus says in John 8:40 and John 17:3? Will anyone who DISREGARD what Jesus says be saved? Then is it ALSO okay to DISREGARD John 3:16; John 3:18 and John 3:36?

You say it is ABSOLUTELY correct to say that Christ is the Father, Christ is the Son and Christ is the Holy Spirit and Christ is God.

Acts 2:36 tells us that "...God MADE this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ." Who is this God that MADE Jesus, Christ the Father, Christ the Son and Christ the Holy Spirit?

Don't you think you are getting more and more absurd as you STRIVE to go AGAINST Jesus to DEFEND your FALSE doctrines?

Ed

edpobre

28th December 2001, 12:29 AM

Blalron,

You wrote: Why is that word used only once in the entire New Testament, and in reference to Jesus? Doesn't it tell you something?

The word "Godhead" is found only in the King James and New King James Version. Doesn't that tell you somnetrhing my friend?

And FYI Blalron, the word "Godhead" is found three times in the KJV (Col. 2:9; Act 17:29; Rom 1:20) and TWICE in the NKJV (Col. 2:9; Rom. 1:20). Check it our my friend. Doen't that tell you something?

I wrote: If Jesus is God (the one and only DEITY) in an earthly, physical and bodily form, what is the FATHER? Isn't the FATHER the ONLY true God (John 17:3) according to Jesus?

You wrote:Yes, Ed. The Father is the only true God, and Jesus Christ, who he has sent. Jesus could have easily said that the Father ALONE is the only true God, but he did not.

Do you HONESTLY think you will be SAVED by NOT believing what Jesus says and means in John 17:3? Apostle Paul CLARIFIES what Jesus means when he writes "yet for US (Paul and the Christians), there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER...(1 cOR. 8:6).

Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true GOD.

Paul says the ONLY ONE God is the FATHER.

Is this your way of proving to me that you BELIEVE in Jesus?

You wrote: Why is Jesus called the true God and eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

Who called Jesus the true God and eternal life in 1 John 5:20? Certainly NOT apostle John. If John KNEW for certain that Jesus is the true God and eternal life, tell me my friend, was apostle John LYING when he wrote the following:

1) NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time (John 1:1:cool: . Apostle John and many others (1 Cor. 15:6) SAW Jesus after GOD raised him from the dead.

2) the ONLY begotten son, MADE God known (John 1:18 KJV).

3) Jesus IDENTIFIED the FATHER as the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Please read and analyze 1 John 5:20 my friend. It says the "son of God CAME." That son of God who CAME is Jesus. If we stopped here, you will note that it is NOT God (for sure Jesus is the son of the TRUE God) who CAME but His son. If Jesus (the SON) were the ONLY true God, then the FATHER who SENT him is either a MAN or a FALSE God. Right?

But you see Blalron, your belief that Jesus is the ONLY true God and eternal life is FALSE because it is diametrically OPPOSED to what Jesus said in John 17:3 TEV. Jesus said to the FATHER (v.1), "and eternal life means knowing YOU, the ONLY true God AND knowing Jesus Christ whom YOU hve sent."[/i]

You wrote: How did God shed his blood in Acts 20:28?

Do you really believe Jesus my friend? In John 4:24, Jesus said that God is SPIRIT. In Luke 24:39, Jesus said that a SPIRIT does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has.

Was blood shed on the cross? YES! Was flesh PIERCED on the cross? YES! In Gen. 6:3, God says that MAN is flesh.

Thus, your belief that God shed His blood on the cross is FALSE! It was the blood of a MAN that was shed on the cross. God does NOT have flesh. thus, God does NOT bleed. Jesus has flesh and bones. He bleeds. It was Jesus, the MAN that bled on the cross, NOT God.

Ed

edpobre

28th December 2001, 12:37 AM

Blackhaw,

You wrote: "in him DWELLS the FULLNESS of the DEITY bodily."

That pretty much says it all. How can a mere man posses the fullness of the deity bodily? How can all of God be in a man yet that man is not God?

"In that case, why didn't Paul simply say "in him dwells the FULLNESS of GOD bodily?"

What is the difference? What makes the word Godhead so different? What is the Godhead?

Do you believe Jesus Blackhaw? Jesus says God is SPIRIT. Is Jesus a SPIRIT? No! He says he is flesh and bones. Niw, if GOD dwells in Christ bodily and that MAKES Jesus God, are you then saying that God is flesh and bones CONTRARY to what Jesus says?

Do you know the PUNISHMENT for NOT believing Jesus? Please don't take this lightly my friend.

Ed

Josephus

28th December 2001, 12:43 AM

Ed, you say that Jesus was made by God. Of course he was made by the Spirit of God. Jesus in flesh didn't exist until he was born! The Spirit of God makes the flesh, Jesus, who then inhabits that flesh as the Son.

If you ask me how God can be in Jesus and in heaven at the same time, I'll just ask a question to answer yours: how can God be everywhere at once and still be in heaven and earth? God can do anything he wants to, even put his entire fullness of deity into one physical body, and yet still remain the infinite God.

So that is why I mentioned the affirmative to your question: "Is Christ the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" - in a manner of speaking...yes!

The Spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of God, who is also known as the Holy Spirit! What is so difficult to understand about that?

edpobre

28th December 2001, 02:21 AM

joesnuff,

You wrote: Paul's language, particularly in the benedictions, constantly distinguishes between the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father.

You know why? Because God is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ. Please take a look at Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3 and 1 Peter 1:3. It is clear that Jesus is NOT the Father and is, therefore, NOT God.

You wrote: The point of Colossians 2:9 may be to set the reality of Christ over and above the shadows of the Old Testament.

That's only your opinion joesnuff and it does NOT have any Biblical support. Why don't you relate this to Col. 2:8 and note the CONTEXT so you can understand that Paul was comparing men's "sinful nature" to God's holy and righteous nature which resides fully in Christ.

You wrote: The fulness of deity dwells in Christ and as such he is both God and man... the language is very non-figurative and John 1:1-14 should be treated the same because of the parallel concept.

Well, you can come up with every non-biblical reason to make Jesus God and if you want to make Jesus a LIAR and CUT OUT John 8:40 and John 17:3 from your Bible, that's up to you. But remember my friend, he who does NOT believe in Jesus is CONDEMNED already.

Ed

edpobre

28th December 2001, 02:34 AM

LouisBooth,

You wrote: Actaully Michael, the verse you are using you are taking out of context. The context of the verse was fellowship, not actual exsistance. Read the passage again Col 2:9 on the other hand was was directly talking about theology and who the Christ really was. It shows that in the previous verse by Paul stateing, "see to it that no one take syou captive through hollow and dexeptive philospohy..." he then tells them the truth, that Jesus was Deity incarnate, ie Jesus is God in flesh.

The context of the verse is NOT felllowship either Louis. Paul was telling Christians to beware lest they be taken by deceit and philosopjy ACCORDING to traditions of men or the principles of the world and NOT ACCORDING to Christ. What does this mean? That the traditions of men or the principles of the world is CARNAL whereas ACCORDING to Christ is SPIRITUAL because the "holiness and righteousness" of God resides in Christ (divine nature).

Apostle Paul was NOT telling the Colossians that Jesus is God in the flesh. There is NO such thing as God in the flesh bcause Jesus said God is SPIRIT and apostle Paul knew it.

Ed

edpobre

28th December 2001, 02:51 AM

Josephus,

You wrote: If you ask me how God can be in Jesus and in heaven at the same time, I'll just ask a question to answer yours: how can God be everywhere at once and still be in heaven and earth? God can do anything he wants to, even put his entire fullness of deity into one physical body, and yet still remain the infinite God.

But would God make Jesus a LIAR? Jesus said God is SPIRIT (John 4:24) and said further that a SPIRIT has no FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39). If the "fullness" of God means that Jesus is God, then Jesus would have been LYING. Right?

b]You wrote:[/b] So that is why I mentioned the affirmative to your question: "Is Christ the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" - in a manner of speaking...yes!

The Spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of God, who is also known as the Holy Spirit! What is so difficult to understand about that?

I undertand wht you are saying Josephus. But I don't believe that what you are saying is what Jesus TAUGHT. Apostle John says that "whoever transgresses and DOES NOT abide in the teaching of Christ DOES NOT have God (2 John 9).

You can say and believe anything you want to satisfy your ego. But the bottomline is: can you honestly say that you are ABIDING in the doctrine of Christ?

Ed

LouisBooth

28th December 2001, 03:08 AM

"The context of the verse is NOT felllowship either Louis. "

oh yes it is. Look at the surrounding verses ed. Look at verse 11. "in him" its VERY clear it is talking about fellowship.

"Paul was telling Christians to beware lest they be taken by deceit and philosopjy ACCORDING to traditions of men or the principles of the world and NOT ACCORDING to Christ. "

Exactly, then he said Jesus is God. Then he goes on to talk about fellowship with God.

"There is NO such thing as God in the flesh bcause Jesus said God is SPIRIT and apostle Paul knew it."

IN col 2:9 Paul clearly said Jesus was diety incarnate. Thats just proved by looking at the words on the page ed. Your refusal to believe that is just nonsence. If I say ed, the sky is blue you would say, Louis, you just said the sky is orange :lol: Look at the words ed.

Blackhawk

28th December 2001, 02:39 PM

"Do you believe Jesus Blackhaw? Jesus says God is SPIRIT. Is Jesus a SPIRIT? No! He says he is flesh and bones. Niw, if GOD dwells in Christ bodily and that MAKES Jesus God, are you then saying that God is flesh and bones CONTRARY to what Jesus says?"

Okay Ed then how do you interpret someone saying about another man that "In him DWELLS the FULLNESS of the DEITY bodily?" What else can Paul mean but that Jesus is God? Do we have the FULLNESS of GOD bodily? No. So what could He have meant?

"Do you know the PUNISHMENT for NOT believing Jesus? Please don't take this lightly my friend."

I don't take it lightly. That is why I believe that He is God and my savior.

Blackhaw

Josephus

28th December 2001, 03:52 PM

Yeah ed, can't you see that the spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of God himself? Would that not harmonize well: the fact that Jesus's body is indeed fully human, flesh, a man; But his Spirit is God - thus making him BOTH fully man from his perspective from that body, but also fully God from the perspective of his place as the Spirit of God who is revealed as the Father?

Can't you see the Father is the Spirit of God?

Don't you know that the Spirit of God is the same as the Holy Spirit?

In (the body of) Jesus, all the fullness of deity dwells.

edpobre

28th December 2001, 08:52 PM

Blackhaw,

I wrote: "Do you believe Jesus Blackhaw? Jesus says God is SPIRIT. Is Jesus a SPIRIT? No! He says he is flesh and bones. Niw, if GOD dwells in Christ bodily and that MAKES Jesus God, are you then saying that God is flesh and bones CONTRARY to what Jesus says?"

You wrote:Okay Ed then how do you interpret someone saying about another man that "In him DWELLS the FULLNESS of the DEITY bodily?" What else can Paul mean but that Jesus is God? Do we have the FULLNESS of GOD bodily? No. So what could He have meant?

Before we go into the TRUE meaning of Col. 2:9, we must first agree on several TRUTHS. First, Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Second, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God of Christians (1 Cor. 8:6). Third, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3).

Now, with these TRUTHS in mind, the first thing that we MUST remove from our mind is the idea that Paul meant to convey the message that Jesus is God when he wrote Col. 2:9. This idea CONTRADICTS all the TRUTHS that Paul had written above.

Next, we go back to Col. 2:8 and examine the context. What was Paul trying to warn the Christians to beware? He was warning them lest theyare cheated through philosophy and empty deceit that are according to traditions of men and the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ.

For IN Christ DWELLS the OPPOSITE of philosophy, empty deceit , traditions of men and the rudiments of the world. And these are: holiness and righteousness. Yes Blackhaw, these are Christ's divine (coming from God) nature that DWELL in him bodily. Other versions of the Bible render "Godhead" as "divine nature." Check this out.

I wrote:"Do you know the PUNISHMENT for NOT believing Jesus? Please don't take this lightly my friend."

You wrote:I don't take it lightly. That is why I believe that He is God and my savior.

Blackhaw, please don't fool yourself. Believing that Jesus is God means you believe OTHERS (Catholic Councils, Protestant pastors and evangelists) instead of believing Jesus. Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY (means nobody else, no one else, no one besides the Father) true God (John 17:3).

You may PRETEND to believe Jesus but as long as you believe that he is God inspite of his saying that the FATHER is the ONLY true God, there is only one destination for you. And believe me, the Bible is NOT joking.

Ed

edpobre

28th December 2001, 09:02 PM

Josephus,

You wrote: Yeah ed, can't you see that the spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of God himself? Would that not harmonize well: the fact that Jesus's body is indeed fully human, flesh, a man; But his Spirit is God - thus making him BOTH fully man from his perspective from that body, but also fully God from the perspective of his place as the Spirit of God who is revealed as the Father?

The more you defend your faulty position my friend, the more you become unintelligible. Why can't you simply accept Jesus as your Lord or Master and believe what he says? He says he is a MAN (John 8:40). He looked up to heaven and said, "Father.... " (John 17:1). Then he IDENTIFIED the FATHER as the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Your argument that Jesus' body is MAN but his SPIRIT is God is PURE hogwash!

You wrote: Can't you see the Father is the Spirit of God?

Don't you know that the Spirit of God is the same as the Holy Spirit?

The Father is NOT the Spirit OF God. The Father is GOD, period. And God is SPIRIT. And this SAME spirit is Holy. Thus, there is no such thing as third person of the Trinity.

You wrote: In (the body of) Jesus, all the fullness of deity dwells.

What is the FULLNESS of DEITY that dwells in Christ? Does it mean Christ is at the SAME time the Father? Then you are in dangerous grounds my friend. Jesus did not teach what you are proposing.

Ed

Edited by: Josephus

Josephus

28th December 2001, 10:13 PM

Jesus taught the Counselor will come in his place. Who is this Counselor if he is God, but not...the Father?

Are you saying the Father is the "Counselor" that Jesus also speaks of? Hmm...interesting. If the Counselor and the Father are one and the same God, then you have the precedent for Jesus saying that the Father is something else as well.

LouisBooth

29th December 2001, 03:12 AM

"First, Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN "

You're wrong here ed as his letters will show. IN several places paul puts Jesus on a higher then man status. Just read the intro to any of his letters and you will see that. Paul called him Lord, something you don't do unless you are commiting blasphy. that's LORD. not lord.

Blackhawk

29th December 2001, 01:40 PM

Ed,

"Before we go into the TRUE meaning of Col. 2:9, we must first agree on several TRUTHS. First, Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5)."

1st How can you expect me to go with this since we are discussing a passage of Paul and whether or not he is saying that Jesus was God? That would be like you asking me to accept 2+2=5 before begginning a discussion of whether 2+2=5 or 4. It makes no sense.
2nd the verses you gave me do not contradict Trinitarian doctrine. They just show the good news that Jesus was also a man. And that He is our mediator between God and us. that He paved the way for us to get back to Him. Really for Him to bring us back to Him.

"Second, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God of Christians (1 Cor. 8:6)."

Again you want me to say that Jesus is not God in a discussion of the Trinity. God the Father is the only God but so is Jesus. They are one in substance. 3 persons. So really this one I guess could be right and wrong it jsut would depend on how you mean it. And I know you mean to say that God the Father and not the other persons of the Godhead are God. So no you are wrong and it would be illogical for me to agree to this before arguing against it.

"Third, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3)."

i have no problem with this one . This one as stated before (by more than just me) goes along with the Trinitarian doctrine.

"Now, with these TRUTHS in mind, the first thing that we MUST remove from our mind is the idea that Paul meant to convey the message that Jesus is God when he wrote Col. 2:9. This idea CONTRADICTS all the TRUTHS that Paul had written above."

No i won't because I do not believe what you said above.

"Next, we go back to Col. 2:8 and examine the context. What was Paul trying to warn the Christians to beware? He was warning them lest theyare cheated through philosophy and empty deceit that are according to traditions of men and the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ. For IN Christ DWELLS the OPPOSITE of philosophy, empty deceit , traditions of men and the rudiments of the world. And these are: holiness and righteousness. Yes Blackhaw, these are Christ's divine (coming from God) nature that DWELL in him bodily. Other versions of the Bible render "Godhead" as "divine nature." Check this out."

I believe that he was saying that those who believe that Jesus was not God were the ones looking at the philosophy of the world. Was not Collasse a greek city? If not it was very hellenized. I think that he was going against heresis. Maybe something like Gnosticism that said that we just need to know the right knowledge then we too can become gods like Jesus. He knew the secret knowledge that we too can find out. That is more like what I believe he was speaking against because that was going on around that time.

Blackhaw

edpobre

29th December 2001, 11:03 PM

Josephus,

You wrote: Jesus taught the Counselor will come in his place. Who is this Counselor if he is God, but not...the Father?

Are you saying the Father is the "Counselor" that Jesus also speaks of? Hmm...interesting. If the Counselor and the Father are one and the same God, then you have the precedent for Jesus saying that the Father is something else as well.

Does the Bible teach that the Counselor is God? Please show us the verse Josephus. No, the Counselor is NOT God. The Counselor is "A" Holy Spirit that COMES from God. The Bible says God has seven SPIRITS that He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6).

Ed

edpobre

29th December 2001, 11:13 PM

LouisBooth,

I wrote: "First, Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN "

You wrote:You're wrong here ed as his letters will show. IN several places paul puts Jesus on a higher then man status. Just read the intro to any of his letters and you will see that. Paul called him Lord, something you don't do unless you are commiting blasphy. that's LORD. not lord.

You say I'm wrong in saying that Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN. Are you saying that Paul was NOT certain that Jesus was a MAN?

Then tell me my friend, why did Paul say in Acts 17:31 that Jesus is a MAN? And why he apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 2:5 that Jesus is a MAN if he was NOT certain that Jesus is a MAN?

Apostle PaUl's calling Jesus LORD or Lord does NOT make Jesus God. Paul accepted Jesus as his Lord and it is only proper that he calls him Lord. But Paul made it clear in his first letter to the Corinthians that there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER and ONLY ONE Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).

Ed

edpobre

29th December 2001, 11:34 PM

Blackhaw,

I wrote: "Before we go into the TRUE meaning of Col. 2:9, we must first agree on several TRUTHS. First, Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5)."

You wrote:1st How can you expect me to go with this since we are discussing a passage of Paul and whether or not he is saying that Jesus was God? That would be like you asking me to accept 2+2=5 before begginning a discussion of whether 2+2=5 or 4. It makes no sense.
2nd the verses you gave me do not contradict Trinitarian doctrine. They just show the good news that Jesus was also a man. And that He is our mediator between God and us. that He paved the way for us to get back to Him. Really for Him to bring us back to Him.

Don't you agree that Paul was CERTAIN Jesus is a MAN? Don't you think that if Paul was NOT certain that Jesus is a MAN, he wouldn't have written that "...the ONLY mediator between God and men is that MAN, Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5). Is Jesus the ONLY mediator yesterday, today or forever?

You say that the verses I gave you do not contradict the Trinity. Then why can't you AGREE that these verses are TRUE?

I wrote: "Second, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God of Christians (1 Cor. 8:6)."

You wrote:Again you want me to say that Jesus is not God in a discussion of the Trinity. God the Father is the only God but so is Jesus. They are one in substance. 3 persons. So really this one I guess could be right and wrong it jsut would depend on how you mean it. And I know you mean to say that God the Father and not the other persons of the Godhead are God. So no you are wrong and it would be illogical for me to agree to this before arguing against it.

So you believe that 1 Cor. 8:6 is FALSE, right? Should we cut this out from our Bibles my friend? Or isn't it WISER to cast aside your FALSE belief and truly BELIEVE that 1 Cor. 8:6 is TRUE?

I wrote:"Third, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3)."

You wrote:i have no problem with this one . This one as stated before (by more than just me) goes along with the Trinitarian doctrine.

Aha! So you only pick the verses that you think agree with your FALSE doctrine! Don't you think that's a dangerous thing to do?

I wrote:"Now, with these TRUTHS in mind, the first thing that we MUST remove from our mind is the idea that Paul meant to convey the message that Jesus is God when he wrote Col. 2:9. This idea CONTRADICTS all the TRUTHS that Paul had written above."

You wrote:No i won't because I do not believe what you said above.

You don't believe the TRUTHS written in the Bible. That's okay with me. I'm not the one that will wait until the 1000 years reign of Christ is finished. Oh, by the way, has anyone told you that only those who believe in Jesus have life and will rise to meet him on judgment day and will reign with him 1000 years?

I wrote:"Next, we go back to Col. 2:8 and examine the context. What was Paul trying to warn the Christians to beware? He was warning them lest theyare cheated through philosophy and empty deceit that are according to traditions of men and the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ. For IN Christ DWELLS the OPPOSITE of philosophy, empty deceit , traditions of men and the rudiments of the world. And these are: holiness and righteousness. Yes Blackhaw, these are Christ's divine (coming from God) nature that DWELL in him bodily. Other versions of the Bible render "Godhead" as "divine nature." Check this out."

You wrote:I believe that he was saying that those who believe that Jesus was not God were the ones looking at the philosophy of the world. Was not Collasse a greek city? If not it was very hellenized. I think that he was going against heresis. Maybe something like Gnosticism that said that we just need to know the right knowledge then we too can become gods like Jesus. He knew the secret knowledge that we too can find out. That is more like what I believe he was speaking against because that was going on around that time.

Can you see why CONTEXT cannot be trusted to lead one to an accurate understanding of a verse? If the context does NOT agree with what one has in mind, the context is TWISTED to fit the mental picture one has.

Go back to the TRUTH Blackhaw so you can arrive at the TRUE understanding of these controversial verses. And please heed God's invitation for you to come out of your FALSE church lest you share of her sins and receive of her plagues.

Ed

Josephus

30th December 2001, 12:47 AM

"Does the Bible teach that the Counselor is God? Please show us the verse Josephus. No, the Counselor is NOT God. The Counselor is "A" Holy Spirit that COMES from God. The Bible says God has seven SPIRITS that He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6)."

So which Spirit is the Counselor? What are these seven spirits? What does it mean to be "baptized in the Holy Spirit?" Is the Holy Spirit one spirit or seven? Which one? What does it mean to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? Can I be sealed by the Counselor too? How about the Comforter? Is God incapable of comforting or counseling me that he has to have some underling to do it for him? Is God too busy for me ed? Tell me before you walk the line of blasphemy.

LouisBooth

31st December 2001, 06:52 AM

"You say I'm wrong in saying that Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN. "

Its your unspoken word that I am saying is wrong. the word "just or only". YOu are saying Jesus is just a man or Jesus is only a man (implying he is not God). Paul never does this.

Blackhawk

31st December 2001, 01:18 PM

"Don't you agree that Paul was CERTAIN Jesus is a MAN? Don't you think that if Paul was NOT certain that Jesus is a MAN, he wouldn't have written that "...the ONLY mediator between God and men is that MAN, Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5). Is Jesus the ONLY mediator yesterday, today or forever? "

You are very tricky Ed. I tool # 1 to mean that you were saying, like always, that Jesus was JUST a man. But after rereading it you did not say that. so yes I agree that Jesus wa a man. But I also believe that Jesus was God.

"You say that the verses I gave you do not contradict the Trinity. Then why can't you AGREE that these verses are
TRUE?"

I never said I did not agree with the verses. All Verses in the Bible are true.

"So you believe that 1 Cor. 8:6 is FALSE, right? Should we cut this out from our Bibles my friend? Or isn't it WISER to cast aside your FALSE belief and truly BELIEVE that 1 Cor. 8:6 is TRUE?"

No. the verse is right. And I made it clear to what I objected to in my post. Let me just quote myself here.

"Again you want me to say that Jesus is not God in a discussion of the Trinity. God the Father is the only God but so is Jesus. They are one in substance. 3 persons. So really this one I guess could be right and wrong it jsut would depend on how you mean it. And I know you mean to say that God the Father and not the other persons of the Godhead are God. So no you are wrong and it would be illogical for me to agree to this before arguing against it. "

So I was not objecting to the scripture or that God the Father was the only true God. But so Is Jesus and the H.S.. Basically as stated above I was objecting to your saying that God the Father was the only God meaning that Jesus and the H.S. are not God.

"You don't believe the TRUTHS written in the Bible. That's okay with me. I'm not the one that will wait until the years reign of Christ is finished. Oh, by the way, has anyone told you that only those who believe in Jesus have life and will rise to meet him on judgment day and will reign with him 1000 years?"

Whatever. I believe the truths of the bible and I believe in the Truth. You are the one that is in trouble.

"Can you see why CONTEXT cannot be trusted to lead one to an accurate understanding of a verse? If the context
does NOT agree with what one has in mind, the context is TWISTED to fit the mental picture one has."

I do not know why you said this. But context is very important when interpreting scripture. You have to know the setting and who the author was speaking to whne he wrote the text. Without this you can twist scripture around so that it means anything you want. MAybe that Jesus is not God. That is what the INC does.

"Go back to the TRUTH Blackhaw so you can arrive at the TRUE understanding of these controversial verses. And
please heed God's invitation for you to come out of your FALSE church lest you share of her sins and receive of her
plagues."

I know the Truth Ed. Do you?

Blackhaw

edpobre

31st December 2001, 07:55 PM

Josephus,

I wrote: "Does the Bible teach that the Counselor is God? Please show us the verse Josephus. No, the Counselor is NOT God. The Counselor is "A" Holy Spirit that COMES from God. The Bible says God has seven SPIRITS that He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6)."

You wrote: So which Spirit is the Counselor? What are these seven spirits? What does it mean to be "baptized in the Holy Spirit?" Is the Holy Spirit one spirit or seven? Which one? What does it mean to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? Can I be sealed by the Counselor too? How about the Comforter? Is God incapable of comforting or counseling me that he has to have some underling to do it for him? Is God too busy for me ed? Tell me before you walk the line of blasphemy.

Apparently you don't even read the verses I cite and you don't believe what the Bible teaches. Rev. 5:6 says that God has seven spirits that he sends out into all the world. The Bible does not say which of these is the counselor or the comforter. Jesus says he will send a comforter that comes frm the Father. Defnitely this comforter is NOT God because it comes FROM God.

You want to know what it means to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? Read Eph. 1:13.

Ed

epobre

2nd January 2002, 09:02 PM

Blackhaw,

I wrote: "Do you believe Jesus Blackhaw? Jesus says God is SPIRIT. Is Jesus a SPIRIT? No! He says he is flesh and bones. Now, if GOD dwells in Christ bodily and that MAKES Jesus God, are you then saying that God is flesh and bones CONTRARY to what Jesus says?"

You wrote: Okay Ed then how do you interpret someone saying about another man that "In him DWELLS the FULLNESS of the DEITY bodily?" What else can Paul mean but that Jesus is God? Do we have the FULLNESS of GOD bodily? No. So what could He have meant?

We have agreed that God CANNOT literally dwell in Christ bodily and make Jesus God because it would make God flesh and bones CONTRARY to what Jesus teaches (John 4:24; Luke 24:39). Therefore, we must find out what apostle Paul meant by the "FULLNESS of God" is that dwells in Christ.

If we go back to Col. 2:8 and study the message, we can see that Paul was warning the Christians to beware lest they are deceived by philosophy that is ACCORDING to tradition of men and the rudiments of the world. Clearly Paul was talking of men's "sinful or carnal nature" which produce LIES.

Paul says that these are NOT according to Christ. Why are these NOT according to Christ? Because Christ's nature which is opposite man's sinful or carnal nature is "holy and righteous" and produce TRUTHS.

I wote: "Do you know the PUNISHMENT for NOT believing Jesus? Please don't take this lightly my friend."

You wrote: I don't take it lightly. That is why I believe that He is God and my savior.

You still believe that Jesus is God DESPITE his saying that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?

You sure take the Bible's warning VERY lightly!

Ed

LouisBooth

4th January 2002, 08:18 AM

"We have agreed that God CANNOT literally dwell in Christ bodily and make Jesus God because it would make God flesh and bones CONTRARY to what Jesus teaches (John 4:24; Luke 24:39). "

First of all ed, you're taking John 4:24 out of context, its talking about worshiping him in spirit!! Secoond Luke 24:39 says Jesus' ressurected body was flesh, yeah! that's right! but it DOESN'T say he wasn't God. NOW STOP TAKING VERSES AND TWISTING THEM! Its really starting to [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] me off.

"If we go back to Col. 2:8 and study the message, we can see that Paul was warning the Christians to beware lest they are deceived by philosophy that is ACCORDING to tradition of men and the rudiments of the world"

No Paul was talking about people like you that twist scripture to mean something it is not. Jesus clearly say he was the "great I AM, he showed it by forgiving sins. col 2:9 says it and so does the book of John. Now stop twisting scripture! Jesus is God and that's what the bible says.

Kanuk

9th January 2002, 08:36 PM

It means that God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in Jesus in his bodily resurrection. Same idea at Col 1:19 and 1 Cor 15:45; Jn 4:24.

In the very next verse, Col 2:10 Paul explains that we Christians therefore also have this fullness. Shall we then claim we are God too?

Kanuk

LouisBooth

10th January 2002, 02:55 AM

No, you misunderstand that statement. *sigh* it gets tiring seeing people not understand the bible. First of all, get a greek translation and look at the words. That should help you. Contrary to what most people think by their reading the bible was not written in english! *gasp* First of all it says fullness in Christ, NOT THE SAME FULLNESS!!! Make sure you read carefully next time ;)

epobre

10th January 2002, 03:02 AM

LouisBooth,

First of all ed, you're taking John 4:24 out of context, its talking about worshiping him in spirit!! Secoond Luke 24:39 says Jesus' ressurected body was flesh, yeah! that's right! but it DOESN'T say he wasn't God. NOW STOP TAKING VERSES AND TWISTING THEM! Its really starting to [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] me off.

Your THINKING stinks Louis! Isn't it TRUE that God is SPIRIT? Regardless of CONTEXT, John 4:24 tells us that God is SPIRIT. Isn't that TRUE?

It's true that Luke 24:39 doesn't say that Jesus is not God. But use the little intelligence that you probably have and think, no matter how hard that maybe for you. Jesus says a SPIRIT which God is, does NOT have FLESH like he has. Doesn't this tell you that Jesus is NOT spirit because he has flesh and therefore, is NOT God?

It' truly hard to defend a FALSE doctrine Louis. If makes you TWIST and [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]es you off. I really can't blame you.

Ed