ELCA and Adiaphora

[KagomeShuko]

I know it was just joking in one of the threads in the main TCCL forum about ANY churches. However, I was wondering do your churches have a cross and/or a baptismal font in the front near the altar? St. Paul has had that and those things always seem to be in the central focus at Youth Gatherings and the Extravaganza and ELCA churches I've visited. There always seems to be at least a cross if not the baptismal font as well.

What are your experiences?

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Lutherrunner]

we have a really nice Luther's Rose cross hanging from the ceiling with wire....it is suspended above the altar...

the baptismal font is in a special area by a nice window where there is room for people to gather.....

[cableguy]

babtismal font in front of the alter, large cross in the foreground of the alter.

http://www.stmarkalaska.org/scenes.htm

[Melethiel]

Large cross behind altar, smaller crucifix, baptismal font near the entrance.

[soccerguy2594]

Both the Cross and the baptismal font are very central to Lutheran theology. I would venture to say that any congregation that does not have these as focal points are trying to diminish their lutheran (or sacramental) identity.

Ideally the baptismal font should be at the entrance of the sanctuary so it is the first thing people see/encounter as they enter for worship. Since this is our entrance into the Christian community (though, I'm aware, not for all people these days), and it is something we remember daily (Luther said we should remember our baptism daily). Also, funeral rite center on God's promises made in baptism. Because of both of those reasons it should be the first thing encountered before Worship and the last thing when leaving.

Also the font should ALWAYS have water in it (it would be a bonus if it is flowing water). This reminds us of the daily reality of our baptism and the constant presence of God's promises made in baptism.

I like your sanctuary Cableguy. However, wouldn't you have a "table" instead of an "altar?" Liturgically, an altar is something that is up against a way and a table is something that is push away from the wall and has access from all sides. I think this distinction is key since it puts a different emphasis on what communion is. Catholics have Altars since the Eucharist represents the atoneing sacrifice made over again. Lutherans have moved (or tried to) toward having tables since we celebrate the Eucharist (which means "thanksgiving") as a gathering of believers. This tradition is closer to the earliest traditions of the church (ie. that we get from the Didache). I really do think it would be beneficial in our day and age (lack of "guilt" these days) to get way from the atoning sacrifice ("poor me...I'm a sinner") view of communion and move toward the celebratory emphasis of the Eucharist to celebrate what God has already done (and continues to do) for us!!

Just a thought!

[KagomeShuko]

I do have to disagree, soccer. It's all adaiphora. yes, it is better if the baptismal font has water, but it's not of major importance.

As for when St. Paul's was not gutted out due to the hurricane, I'd have to say that we always said we had a communion rail and an altar. However, it was at the front of the church and certainly was not against the wall!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[soccerguy2594]

You are correct. Ultimately, whether or not the font has water in it is adiaphora. It isn't essential. Just like paraments, candles, and the liturgical colors. However, if our worship is a visual as well as an auditory experience it is best that it have water in it. All of those items are essential for the fullest theological representation of our Christian lives. I do understand that the average congregation member is not going to cognitively think about why the font doesn't have water in it. However, when it does (as well as it being in a central area) it adds to the space.

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Both the Cross and the baptismal font are very central to Lutheran theology. I would venture to say that any congregation that does not have these as focal points are trying to diminish their lutheran (or sacramental) identity.

Ideally the baptismal font should be at the entrance of the sanctuary so it is the first thing people see/encounter as they enter for worship. Since this is our entrance into the Christian community (though, I'm aware, not for all people these days), and it is something we remember daily (Luther said we should remember our baptism daily). Also, funeral rite center on God's promises made in baptism. Because of both of those reasons it should be the first thing encountered before Worship and the last thing when leaving.

Also the font should ALWAYS have water in it (it would be a bonus if it is flowing water). This reminds us of the daily reality of our baptism and the constant presence of God's promises made in baptism.

I like your sanctuary Cableguy. However, wouldn't you have a "table" instead of an "altar?" Liturgically, an altar is something that is up against a way and a table is something that is push away from the wall and has access from all sides. I think this distinction is key since it puts a different emphasis on what communion is. Catholics have Altars since the Eucharist represents the atoneing sacrifice made over again. Lutherans have moved (or tried to) toward having tables since we celebrate the Eucharist (which means "thanksgiving") as a gathering of believers. This tradition is closer to the earliest traditions of the church (ie. that we get from the Didache). I really do think it would be beneficial in our day and age (lack of "guilt" these days) to get way from the atoning sacrifice ("poor me...I'm a sinner") view of communion and move toward the celebratory emphasis of the Eucharist to celebrate what God has already done (and continues to do) for us!!

Just a thought!
I think Luther would argue the necessity of remembering the atoning sacrifice as much as a celebration. Lutheran theology is largely built off the idea of our seperation form God by our sin. This world may seem guiltless, but the church must still proclaim. Luther is perhaps influenced by no other book more than ROmans, where Paul spend the first few chapters reminding the Romans that they are sinful beings in need of a Christ who came to die for their account. It is a thanksgiving meal, but if we lose the fact that it is a thanksgiving of Christ dying for our sins, what are we giving thanks too.
Also note that Lutherans do not believe that communion is a sacrifice or re-sacrifice as is in the catholic tradition. But it does see that along with the thanksgiving in God's promised presence, Christ calls us to remember that he did suffer and die as the one sacrifice, once and for all. Seeing ourselves as sinful in need of christ is necessary to see the Lord's Supper as a thanksgiving feast.
You did well soccer though to point out that Luther expects us too live our baptism daily, a point I think we often forget and shouldn't.
As to Adiaphora, one might agrue that baptismal fonts are not Adiaphora-perhaps where they are and if they have water, but not baptismals themselves since proper practice of the sacraments is one of the two necessary things for the true church according to the Augsburg Confession.