What are your thoughts on the teaching that wine in the Bible was not fermented?

[daveleau]

Hello fellow CF BA members,

I hope you are all having a blessed day.

My pastor has a few things that I disagree with, one of them being his teaching that the wine the Christians drank in the Bible was not fermented. What are your thoughts on this?

My main hang-up with this is that Jesus uses the parable of the wine skin in Matt 9:17 (parallel passages in Mark 2:22 and Luke 5:37). Jesus does not use sinful devices as parables in Scripture. His discussion of the wine skin is strictly discussing the fermentation of wine. The new wine skins were used because of their elasticity. As they sat and the wine fermented, they would expand. Hence, you don't use old wine skins because they cannot expand as the wine ferments. This is a parallel idea to the passage just prior in Matt 9:16, where He talks about sewing an unshrunken piece of cloth on an old garment. As the new patch shrinks, it will tear the older material it was sewn to. I understand that some wine of the time was unfermented, but that regardless of what the frequency of use, it could not be deemed inappropriate to drink fermented wine (assuming the custom of not drinking in excess was followed) because Christ used the fermentation of wine in this parable.

I believe we are free to drink wine or any other alcohol as long as we do not drink to excess, where we are under the effects of intoxication (even mild intoxication aka "buzz"). I believe my pastor takes the stance that a sip of wine causes us to be under the drink's effects, but I disagree. (The other thing he preaches that I disagree with is the fact that all dance is sin, when people danced for joy and for God.)

Yours in Christ,
Dave

[TwinCrier]

Wine is fermented. Period. Sure it was more necessary back in bible times as they had no refrigerators to store juice, but it was still used regularly and only drunkeness is condemned. I think claiming the wine Jesus created was not fermented is used by evolutionist to show that, as they believe, God doesn't create anything aged.

Numbers 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

[soblessed53]

I just read about this last night in "Bible Answers For Almost All Your Questions" by Elmer L. Towns

Leaven was forbidden with all sacrifices [Ex.23:18,34:25].Remember leaven or yeast was a sign of sin,and could not be present in one's home on Passover. Since leaven was used to make wine intoxicating,we can only assume that intoxicating wine would never be used in offering to God. The wine served at the last suppercould not have been intoxicating,because if a Jew ate leaven before the Passover,he could not participate. [Ex23:18,Lev.6:17,7:12,10:12]. Jesus would have never broken ceremonial law. The drink at the Lord's Supper is never called wine,but the cup or fruit of the vine. Making intoxicating wine involves allowing the grapes to rot and adding man's creative elements[leaven] to produce alcohol. Intoxication is not the process of God,it is man's addition. People interpret"good wine" at the Wedding to mean that thecreated wine[last] was fermented. However "fresh-created-juice",is a better interpretation.This was sweet grape juice,the kind that gave joy from the Lord. So the only conclusion that I can reach is that the Bible speaks of both! Intoxicating wine at times,and grape juice or fruit of the vine at others!

Prov 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

Prov 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

Prov 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.

Prov 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.


BTW I agree with you:)

[soblessed53]

Wine is fermented. Period. Sure it was more necessary back in bible times as they had no refrigerators to store juice, but it was still used regularly and only drunkeness is condemned. I think claiming the wine Jesus created was not fermented is used by evolutionist to show that, as they believe, God doesn't create anything aged.

Numbers 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.




Wow, I just noted your verse from numbers REFUTES This guy's stance then about wine supposedly because of the yeast or leaven,being forbidden with all sacrifices! :blush: :blush: Plus he says the word wine is never used about the Last Supper,but he forgets that it Is used describing what Jesus turned the water into! LOL!

Shot my book down,LOL! Hey that's good though when you are on a quest for truth. I intend to print out your reply. Thanks! :) :hug: :wave:

[Crazy Liz]

Without artificial preservatives or methods such as canning (boiling the juice or food to kill all microorganisms and sealing in an airtight sterile container) or freezing, grape juice could not possibly remain unfermented from harvest time in fall until Passover in spring.

[daveleau]

I'm not sure but is yeast only added to wine now to increase the rapidity of the fermentation process? I'm no historian on wine nor on current wine making processes. Does anyone know if yeast was ever used in wine? I think Liz makes another good point about it as well.

[Crazy Liz]

I'm not sure but is yeast only added to wine now to increase the rapidity of the fermentation process? I'm no historian on wine nor on current wine making processes. Does anyone know if yeast was ever used in wine? I think Liz makes another good point about it as well.
Yeast is one of several (mostly fungal, but some bacterial) microorganisms that are naturally found on the skins of grapes. When the skins are broken, conditions will determine which type of microorganism will grow fastest. For example, when it rains and the grape berries split while hanging on the vine, those conditions favor the growth of various kinds of mold. When the grapes are crushed and the skins fall to the bottom of a container of liquid, conditions favor the growth of yeasts.

Modern winemaking technology sometimes relies on the naturally-occurring yeasts and sometimes relies on the addition of specific strains of yeast for better control of the fermentation process.

Whether the ancients knew that the same type of microorganisms that were responsible for bread rising were also responsible for fermentation of wine, I do not know.

[akascottb]

I'm not sure but is yeast only added to wine now to increase the rapidity of the fermentation process? I'm no historian on wine nor on current wine making processes. Does anyone know if yeast was ever used in wine? I think Liz makes another good point about it as well.

yeast is a bacteria. any alcohol can be made from wild yeast floating through the air, or from specific, cultivated strains. the type of yeast used affects flavor.

[Crazy Liz]

yeast is a bacteria.
Yeast is not a bacteria. It is a fungus. But unless you're making bread or wine, I suppose the difference would be insignificant.

[aReformedPatriot]

Is levin essential for wine making?

[Crazy Liz]

Is levin essential for wine making?
Yeast is what converts sugar into alcohol in the fermentation process. However, I don't know whether the ancients realized it was the same microorganism as the one that caused bread to rise. I can't say for sure that the Hebrew word translated "leaven" is exactly synonymous with the English word "yeast."

[Hisbygrace]

My pastor has a few things that I disagree with, one of them being his teaching that the wine the Christians drank in the Bible was not fermented. What are your thoughts on this?

I tended to agree with your Pastor, until I read Lev. !0:9 which seems to say different.

Leviticus 10:9 " Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you may not die---it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations---."

This scripture seems to group the two together.

[aReformedPatriot]

My pastor has a few things that I disagree with, one of them being his teaching that the wine the Christians drank in the Bible was not fermented. What are your thoughts on this?

I tended to agree with your Pastor, until I read Lev. !0:9 which seems to say different.

Leviticus 10:9 " Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you may not die---it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations---."

This scripture seems to group the two together.



Then there are other texts which do support that the drinking of alcohol is not entirely sinful. This law I believe is directed at the Levitical priests, a special class of people with special rules concerning temple worship. The only time that these were to abstain from drinking it says is "when you come into the tent of meeting..."

[Joykins]

I'm not sure but is yeast only added to wine now to increase the rapidity of the fermentation process?

It depends on the winemaker, I think, but added yeast will definitely speed the fermentation and also help control it. For example, there are special yeasts for champagne. But yeast is naturally present in the air and on grape skins, so it is not strictly necessary and they can yield superior flavors if you get the right ones. There are some Belgian brewers who get great results with fruit flavors using wild yeasts in their beer brewing.

I'm no historian on wine nor on current wine making processes. Does anyone know if yeast was ever used in wine? I think Liz makes another good point about it as well.

I don't know if they knew it was the same thing. Certainly natural yeasts can also be used in breadmaking (sourdough) without adding anything as well. Getting all the yeast out of the house is impossible as it's in the air.

[JustinWindsor]

The New Testament, from which we receive our doctrine, according to the New Covenant in Christ's blood, has ample warning against over indulgence in WINE to convince any casual reader that the wine was fermented. The stretching and twisting of the word of God that I've seen, and the extra-Biblical "Studies" I've heard quoted are quite laughable when compared to what the Bible expressly says.

Furthermore (on my soap box now),

The Christ and the Apostles had plenty of opportunity to write down, "Thou shalt not allow wine to touch thy lips!" But they didn't. They taught against overindulgence. If almighty God wanted that teaching in the Bible the Person of the Holy Spirit would have put it there.

There is ample Scriptural evidence, on the other hand, that Jesus shared a glass or two with sinners and friends. There is no evidence that he stood at the door and said "I can't set foot in this house if there is ale or wine present!"

It never ceases to amaze me how Bible teachers can be so Biblical in their teaching of doctrine until the subject of alcohol comes up.

When they teach these preposterous, man made rules, ask them, "And where, exactly, is that taught as a principle in Apostolic Scripture?"

Alcohol is taught, by man, to be an evil thing, when, in fact, Scripture tells us that nothing is evil in itself. Nothing that goes into a man can defile him, only what comes out.

[aReformedPatriot]

Alcohol is taught as an evil thing, when, in fact, Scripture tells us that nothing is evil in itself. Nothing that goes into a man can defile him, only what comes out.

Exactly...ever seen a drunk person vomit all over themself? :sick: lol.

I generally agree with you post though. :thumbsup:

[daveleau]

But, drunkeness is preached against. :)

[lismore]

Hello fellow CF BA members,

I hope you are all having a blessed day.

My pastor has a few things that I disagree with, one of them being his teaching that the wine the Christians drank in the Bible was not fermented. What are your thoughts on this?





Hi:wave:

If you look at Acts 2, after the believers spoke in tongues some mockers said they had had too much wine. But peter said, we are not drunk, its only 9 in the AM. If the biblical word for wine means cordial then how was it known to be drunk on it?

13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine.[b (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php#fen-NIV-26952b)]"
Peter Addresses the Crowd

14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:



Whoever the sons sets free is free indeed. This is the answer to alcohol addiction- not by being an ostrich:D

[JustinWindsor]

My pastor has a few things that I disagree with, one of them being his teaching that the wine the Christians drank in the Bible was not fermented. What are your thoughts on this?

I tended to agree with your Pastor, until I read Lev. !0:9 which seems to say different.

Leviticus 10:9 " Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you may not die---it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations---."

This scripture seems to group the two together.



The Levitical Law was most certainly not ever directed to Gentiles to be used as a standard, or a rule, or to supervise morality. It was directed to the Jews. It was part of the OLD Covenant. Thankfully, the Good News is, the Gospel is, the New Covenant in Christ's Blood.

[JustinWindsor]

Hi:wave:

If you look at Acts 2, after the believers spoke in tongues some mockers said they had had too much wine. But peter said, we are not drunk, its only 9 in the AM. If the biblical word for wine means cordial then how was it known to be drunk on it?

13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine.[b (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php#fen-NIV-26952b)]"
Peter Addresses the Crowd

14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:



Whoever the sons sets free is free indeed. This is the answer to alcohol addiction- not by being an ostrich:D

Ample Scriptural evidence in Apostolic teaching shows us without doubt that addiction to alcohol and overindulgence in alcohol is sin. There is no prohibition, ever, to a Gentile to never drink ale or wine. This is a sinful man-made rule developed by the fleshly desire to be supervised by rules rather than a relationship with Christ through the counsel and guide of the Holy Spirit.

[InnerPhyre]

Hey don't forget Proverbs 31: 6-7 ;)

6Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

[daveleau]

Mod Hat On^
So far, there have been a couple of non-Baptists giving theological inputs in the Baptist forum. While these were good inputs giving Scripture, please respect the boundaries that have been set up that allows for congregational specific discussion.
Thanks,
daveleau
CF Staff

Mod Hat Off^

[Andy Broadley]

Judges 9:13And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?

[Andy Broadley]

Judges 9:13And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?






Which, thinking about it, might sound like an odd quote coming from a Salvatoinist:D

hey ho...:)

[TwinCrier]

Ample Scriptural evidence in Apostolic teaching shows us without doubt that addiction to alcohol and overindulgence in alcohol is sin. There is no prohibition, ever, to a Gentile to never drink ale or wine. This is a sinful man-made rule developed by the fleshly desire to be supervised by rules rather than a relationship with Christ through the counsel and guide of the Holy Spirit.
I wouldn't go so far as to appoint ill motives to the tea-totalers. I understand that many who have had their lives affected negatively by booze would take the no-alcohol stance. Certainly total abstinence isn't going to hurt anyone and was commanded of certain people in the bible. It just causes a problem when the claim is made that the bible says what it does not. If those who disapprove of alcohol use would admit that it's use isn't condemned in the bible but warn about the casual use of liquor I think it would make their point just as well.

[daveleau]

I don't think teetotalers are an evil thing, either. I disagree with its widespread advocacy based on Scripture. I think it is good for those that have a tendency to get drunk or who have troubles with alcoholism, but I think it is a tradition rather than Scriptural.

[JustinWindsor]

I wouldn't go so far as to appoint ill motives to the tea-totalers. I understand that many who have had their lives affected negatively by booze would take the no-alcohol stance. Certainly total abstinence isn't going to hurt anyone and was commanded of certain people in the bible. It just causes a problem when the claim is made that the bible says what it does not. If those who disapprove of alcohol use would admit that it's use isn't condemned in the bible but warn about the casual use of liquor I think it would make their point just as well.

If someone choses to be a tea-totaler then God bless 'em. Much better than being a falling-down-drunk. ;)

The Apostle Paul didn't think much of the motives of those who claimed that their man-made rules bore the authority of God.

Col 2:2-4
2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

Col 2:8
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

and he went on to teach (Col 2:20-23),
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

If you read the whole of Col 2 you will find that these teachings are in context and can be applied to the subject we are discussing.

[Andy Broadley]

I think it's a matter of personal choice, with moideration being the key word.

Like money, it's the abuse of it that is the sin, not the alcohol.

[Gold Dragon]

Here is a list of every reference to wine or strong drink in the bible.

References to Alcohol in the Bible (http://wooga.drbacchus.com/bible/alcoholr.html)

They are categorized and counted by their treatment of alcohol in those verses, summarized below.


Category - Wine - Strong Drink
Use accepted as normal part of culture - 58 - 1
Symbolic (The wine of his wrath, etc.) - 32 - 1
Wine called a blessing from God - 27 - 0
Use in offerings and sacrifices - 24 - 1
Loss of wine an example of a curse from God - 19 - 1
Examples of abuse of alcohol - 16 - 3
Vows of abstinence - 15 - 6
Warnings against abuse - 13 - 4
Gifts between people - 9 - 0
Comparisons (x is better than wine) - 5 - 0
False accusations of drunkenness - 3 - 1
Rules for selecting deacons - 3 - 0
Miscellaneous - 3 - 1
Abstinence in deference to weak consciences - 1 - 0
Total - 228 - 19

I would say that tee-totalism and its application to all Christians is a product of the tradition of the prohibition in the US influencing the way some Christians interpret scripture.

[Andyman_1970]

It's funny how these same Baptist preachers (mine included) will preach to the high heavens about tithing - but yet never preach out of Deuteronomy 14 (esspecially verse 26) where God's people who live to far away to bring grain/produce/animals to the Tabernacle/Temple to "cash in" their tithe. Then when they arrive at the Tabernacle/Temple they buy their tithe back, and the passage even says "buy whatever you like includeing wine or fermented drink"......

I find it ironic that those (Baptist preachers who preach that it is a sin to even sip wine) who advocate tithing ignore whole passages on the subject when it refers to purchasing and consuming strong drink.

[JustinWindsor]

It's funny how these same Baptist preachers (mine included) will preach to the high heavens about tithing - but yet never preach out of Deuteronomy 14 (esspecially verse 26) where God's people who live to far away to bring grain/produce/animals to the Tabernacle/Temple to "cash in" their tithe. Then when they arrive at the Tabernacle/Temple they buy their tithe back, and the passage even says "buy whatever you like includeing wine or fermented drink"......

I find it ironic that those (Baptist preachers who preach that it is a sin to even sip wine) who advocate tithing ignore whole passages on the subject when it refers to purchasing and consuming strong drink.

Me too! For doctrinal issues, let's stick to the Apostles' clear teaching. It is too easy to fall into the trap of proof texting. And there is nothing more detrimental to the delivery of the good news of Jesus Christ's message than proof texting from the Law of Moses.

I'm a Baptist Pastor, there...I've admitted it, and some of my congregation think I'm too soft on 'drinkers'. They've been infected with some holiness philosophy which came with the puritans. Made-made rules are evil. Evil, evil, evil. They are deception of the enemy.

I'd rather stick to the Apostles' teaching. They were entrusted by Christ to bring us the gospel. Their clear teaching was against over-indulgence and against addiction.

Thanks Andyman, for sticking up for pure truth in this matter.

[Andyman_1970]

Me too! For doctrinal issues, let's stick to the Apostles' clear teaching. It is too easy to fall into the trap of proof texting. And there is nothing more detrimental to the delivery of the good news of Jesus Christ's message than proof texting from the Law of Moses.

I'm a Baptist Pastor, there...I've admitted it, and some of my congregation think I'm too soft on 'drinkers'. They've been infected with some holiness philosophy which came with the puritans. Made-made rules are evil. Evil, evil, evil. They are deception of the enemy.

I'd rather stick to the Apostles' teaching. They were entrusted by Christ to bring us the gospel. Their clear teaching was against over-indulgence and against addiction.

Thanks Andyman, for sticking up for pure truth in this matter.

Thanks for the props brotha.................. :thumbsup:

As you mentioned your congregation thinks your "soft" - if folks at my church knew what I believed (Biblical mind you), they'd think I was a Godless liberal and a drunk (even though I myself do not drink). It's sad when issues become and "us against them" mentality........

[Erinwilcox]

Hello fellow CF BA members,

I hope you are all having a blessed day.

My pastor has a few things that I disagree with, one of them being his teaching that the wine the Christians drank in the Bible was not fermented. What are your thoughts on this?

(The other thing he preaches that I disagree with is the fact that all dance is sin, when people danced for joy and for God.)

Yours in Christ,
Dave

Fiddlesticks! Of course it was fermented! The verses that you used were good. Why would God tell men that drunkeness is an abomination in the unless there was some way for them to get drunk. . .Bible people wouldn't have understood what He meant if there was no fermentation.
As for dancing, some kinds of dancing can be sinful (just like some kinds of drinking). But, I would never say that all dancing is sinful. I love to dance (ballroom). I dance with my father, my male cousins, my grandfather, and my uncles. I also dance with my grandmother. . .My grandparents taught me how to dance almost as soon as I could walk (okay, maybe that's an exaggeration, but we are a dancing family. It must be an Italian thing).

[Dmckay]

Hello fellow CF BA members,

I hope you are all having a blessed day.

My pastor has a few things that I disagree with, one of them being his teaching that the wine the Christians drank in the Bible was not fermented. What are your thoughts on this?

My main hang-up with this is that Jesus uses the parable of the wine skin in Matt 9:17 (parallel passages in Mark 2:22 and Luke 5:37). Jesus does not use sinful devices as parables in Scripture. His discussion of the wine skin is strictly discussing the fermentation of wine. The new wine skins were used because of their elasticity. As they sat and the wine fermented, they would expand. Hence, you don't use old wine skins because they cannot expand as the wine ferments. This is a parallel idea to the passage just prior in Matt 9:16, where He talks about sewing an unshrunken piece of cloth on an old garment. As the new patch shrinks, it will tear the older material it was sewn to. I understand that some wine of the time was unfermented, but that regardless of what the frequency of use, it could not be deemed inappropriate to drink fermented wine (assuming the custom of not drinking in excess was followed) because Christ used the fermentation of wine in this parable.

I believe we are free to drink wine or any other alcohol as long as we do not drink to excess, where we are under the effects of intoxication (even mild intoxication aka "buzz"). I believe my pastor takes the stance that a sip of wine causes us to be under the drink's effects, but I disagree. (The other thing he preaches that I disagree with is the fact that all dance is sin, when people danced for joy and for God.)

Yours in Christ,
Dave
Dave,
Your observations regarding this issue are very good. The wine in Scripture was alcoholic in content. Observe the comments of those who drank of the wine Jesus created at the wedding feast at Cana. Most served the best, i.e. alcohol content, level of sediment, etc. first, and after the guests had well drunk, (gotten a bit tipsy) began serving the cheaper wine— lower quality. But, that which Jesus had created was the best.

There are however, prohibitions in the Old Testament against partaking of strong drink, i.e. distilled or processed to raise the alcohol content, such as brandy from wine or whiskeys. For believers today the guiding principles should be those laid down by Paul, is it edifying?, is it in control or am I?, is it serving as a stumbling block for weaker believer? and most important of all, can I do this to the glory of the Lord? But this is just for lay believers. Those in leadership in the church are told that they are expected to maintain a higher standard. See Paul's instructions regarding the qualifications for deacons and elders in Timothy.

And yet, Paul still advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach ailment.

[InnerPhyre]

Mod Hat On^
So far, there have been a couple of non-Baptists giving theological inputs in the Baptist forum. While these were good inputs giving Scripture, please respect the boundaries that have been set up that allows for congregational specific discussion.
Thanks,
daveleau
CF Staff

Mod Hat Off^

Aw shucks. I was just fellowshippin is all *kicks buster brown shoes in the dirt*

[arunma]

There are however, prohibitions in the Old Testament against partaking of strong drink, i.e. distilled or processed to raise the alcohol content, such as brandy from wine or whiskeys. For believers today the guiding principles should be those laid down by Paul, is it edifying?, is it in control or am I?, is it serving as a stumbling block for weaker believer? and most important of all, can I do this to the glory of the Lord? But this is just for lay believers. Those in leadership in the church are told that they are expected to maintain a higher standard. See Paul's instructions regarding the qualifications for deacons and elders in Timothy.

I agree. I enjoy a beer now and then, but I couldn't drink strongly alcoholic drinks in good conscience.

[jochanaan]

...Leviticus 10:9 " Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you may not die---it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations---."

So the priests aren't to perform sacrifices if they have drunk even a little. Very wise, actually; you wouldn't want to cut the cow's throat if your reflexes were a bit slowed. :eek: Just like even those of us who enjoy a glass or two are very careful if we know we're going to drive later.

[jochanaan]

...There are however, prohibitions in the Old Testament against partaking of strong drink, i.e. distilled or processed to raise the alcohol content, such as brandy from wine or whiskeys...
:scratch: I didn't think they had distilled liquor in Biblical times; I thought it was a later invention. But then, what is "strong drink"?

From the Blue Letter Bible's Dictionary Aids I found this: "[it] is "a strong, intoxicating drink," made from any sweet ingredients, whether grain, vegetables, or the juice of fruits, or a decoction of honey..." Probably, then, various drinks including beer or mead. It always seems to be mentioned in the same context as wine, as if the two were more or less equivalent--at least, that's the impression I've had without looking up all the references.

I feel there's nothing wrong with a glass of wine or a mug of beer or whatever, as long as it stays moderate. But I limit myself to one: one beer, one glass of wine, one shot of distilled liquor, one mixed drink (you've gotta watch those mixed drinks! You never know how much booze is really in them). The amount of alcohol in all those is approximately equal, and I know I can handle it. And of course, if I'm going to be driving (very seldom now since I don't have a car), I don't touch the stuff.

[Dmckay]

:scratch: I didn't think they had distilled liquor in Biblical times; I thought it was a later invention. But then, what is "strong drink"?

From the Blue Letter Bible's Dictionary Aids I found this: " is "a strong, intoxicating drink," made from any sweet ingredients, whether grain, vegetables, or the juice of fruits, or a decoction of honey..." Probably, then, various drinks including beer or mead. It always seems to be mentioned in the same context as wine, as if the two were more or less equivalent--at least, that's the impression I've had without looking up all the references.

I feel there's nothing wrong with a glass of wine or a mug of beer or whatever, as long as it stays moderate. But I limit myself to one: one beer, one glass of wine, one shot of distilled liquor, one mixed drink (you've gotta watch those mixed drinks! You never know how much booze is really in them). The amount of alcohol in all those is approximately equal, and I know I can handle it. And of course, if I'm going to be driving (very seldom now since I don't have a car), I don't touch the stuff.
Here is just a quick response from Wikipedia:The origins of brandy are unclear, and tied to the development of distillation. [I]Concentrated alcoholic beverages were known in ancient Greece and Rome and may have a history going back to ancient Babylon. Brandy as it is known today, first began to appear in the 12th century and became generally popular in the 14th century.
Initially wine was distilled as a preservation method and as a way to make the wine easier for merchants to transport. The intent was to add the water removed by distillation back to the brandy shortly before consumption. It was discovered that after having been stored in wooden casks, the resulting product had improved over the original wine.

[JPPT1974]

When we do the Lord's supper in my church, we use purple grape juice.
Like it is the wine and the blood of the Lord.
But it is not alcoholic at all. As alcohol is off-limits.

[Joykins]

I think there are other methods of concentrating liquor than distillation; a traditional way of making applejack is leaving the fermented cider (wine) out in freezing temperatures, skimming off the ice, and keeping the alcohol which hasn't frozen.

[Dmckay]

I think there are other methods of concentrating liquor than distillation; a traditional way of making applejack is leaving the fermented cider (wine) out in freezing temperatures, skimming off the ice, and keeping the alcohol which hasn't frozen.
Sounds like Hot Mulled Cider at your place after Christmas Charoling is a good time for all. Merry Christmas, by the way.

[thepianist]

Hello fellow CF BA members,

I hope you are all having a blessed day.

My pastor has a few things that I disagree with, one of them being his teaching that the wine the Christians drank in the Bible was not fermented. What are your thoughts on this?

My main hang-up with this is that Jesus uses the parable of the wine skin in Matt 9:17 (parallel passages in Mark 2:22 and Luke 5:37). Jesus does not use sinful devices as parables in Scripture. His discussion of the wine skin is strictly discussing the fermentation of wine. The new wine skins were used because of their elasticity. As they sat and the wine fermented, they would expand. Hence, you don't use old wine skins because they cannot expand as the wine ferments. This is a parallel idea to the passage just prior in Matt 9:16, where He talks about sewing an unshrunken piece of cloth on an old garment. As the new patch shrinks, it will tear the older material it was sewn to. I understand that some wine of the time was unfermented, but that regardless of what the frequency of use, it could not be deemed inappropriate to drink fermented wine (assuming the custom of not drinking in excess was followed) because Christ used the fermentation of wine in this parable.

I believe we are free to drink wine or any other alcohol as long as we do not drink to excess, where we are under the effects of intoxication (even mild intoxication aka "buzz"). I believe my pastor takes the stance that a sip of wine causes us to be under the drink's effects, but I disagree. (The other thing he preaches that I disagree with is the fact that all dance is sin, when people danced for joy and for God.)

Yours in Christ,
Dave

Hi Dave.....Merry Christmas!!! I have to say that on the point of fermented wine, I agree with your pastor. I don't believe that Jesus would create something that would make people not know what they are doing. The Bible states that we are not to even look at the wine that moveth of itself (is fermented)......so I don't believe that means we should drink just a little.

[ZiSunka]

What are your thoughts on the teaching that wine in the Bible was not fermented?

Here are my real thoughts: IT DOESN'T MATTER!

It just doesn't matter whether you do communion with wine, grape juice, koolaid or pineapple juice. It's about unity with God and each other, not about the beverage.