Bible in 90 Days: Catchup, Overflow, Fellowship, Etc.

[Fish and Bread]

Welcome to the second thread for STR's first ever "Bible in 90 Days" study! This thread will be devoted to posts continuing discussions from portions of the bible read on previous days of the study, posts containing initial comments on passages from days past from people who have fallen behind the pace of the study, comments about the study, questions about the study, concerns about the study, and general fellowship! :)

Those people who have read the day's passages on the day they're scheduled to be read and still have time left in that day to post, should post their comments, questions, and discussions pertaining to that day's reading on the "Bible in 90 Days: Day by Day (http://www.christianforums.com/t2268520-bible-in-90-days-day-by-day.html)" thread that same day. :) Everything else goes here. :) The "Bible in 90 Days: Day by Day (http://www.christianforums.com/t2268520-bible-in-90-days-day-by-day.html)" thread also contains more detailed guidelines for the study and a link to the passages we're reading each day (For those who don't have the course bible) in the first post, so anyone participating in the study should probably read it! :)

Happy bible reading! :)

John

[lonnienord]

looking forward to some interesting discussions in here.

[loriersea]

Just a general question: When do you all plan on doing your reading? Do you have a set time or are you planning on making time each day when you can?

I plan on reading while my son naps.

[Lel]

I plan on doing it whenever I can!

[svdbygrace]

Can someone please post the Readings for this week? :help: I am having a horrible time trying to open that PDF :sigh: ...

Thanks in advance! :wave:

[tel0004]

Thanks for the link, count me in with the group. I have to go to work, so Ill start reading tonight.

[SirTimothy]

Only thing thats irritated me was where John quoted it saying '45 minutes of your time'. I hate things that tell me how long I'm meant to take, since I read it--thoroughly--in 5

Timothy

[LiberatedChick]

Can someone please post the Readings for this week? :help: I am having a horrible time trying to open that PDF :sigh: ...

Thanks in advance! :wave:

Here's the whole reading plan...

DAY Start Verse End Verse

1 Ge 1:1 Ge 16:16
2 Ge 17:1 Ge 28:19
3 Ge 28:20 Ge 40:11
4 Ge 40:12 Ge 50:26
5 Ex 1:1 Ex 15:18
6 Ex 15:19 Ex 28:43
7 Ex 29:1 Ex 40:39
8 Le 1:1 Le 14:32
9 Le 14:33 Le 26:26
10 Le 26:27 Nu 8:14
11 Nu 8:15 Nu 21:7
12 Nu 21:8 Nu 32:19
13 Nu 32:20 Dt 7:26
14 Dt 8:1 Dt 23:11
15 Dt 23:12 Dt 34:12
16 Jos 1:1 Jos 14:15
17 Jos 15:1 Jdg 3:27
18 Jdg 3:28 Jdg 15:12
19 Jdg 15:13 1Sa 2:29
20 1Sa 2:30 1Sa 15:35
21 1Sa 16:1 1Sa 28:19
22 1Sa 28:20 2Sa 12:10
23 2Sa 12:11 2Sa 22:18
24 2Sa 22:19 1Ki 7:37
25 1Ki 7:38 1Ki 16:20
26 1Ki 16:21 2Ki 4:37
27 2Ki 4:38 2Ki 15:26
28 2Ki 15:27 2Ki 25:30
29 1Ch 1:1 1Ch 9:44
30 1Ch 10:1 1Ch 23:32
31 1Ch 24:1 2Ch 7:10
32 2Ch 7:11 2Ch 23:15
33 2Ch 23:16 2Ch 35:15
34 2Ch 35:16 Ez 10:44
35 Ne 1:1 Ne 13:14
36 Ne 13:15 Job 7:21
37 Job 8:1 Job 24:25
38 Job 25:1 Job 41:34
39 Job 42:1 Ps 24:10
40 Ps 25:1 Ps 45:14
41 Ps 45:15 Ps 69:21
42 Ps 69:22 Ps 89:13
43 Ps 89:14 Ps 108:13
44 Ps 109:1 Ps 134:3
45 Ps 135:1 Pr 6:35
46 Pr 7:1 Pr 20:21
47 Pr 20:22 Ecc 2:26
48 Ecc 3:1 SoS 8:14
49 Isa 1:1 Isa 13:22
50 Isa 14:1 Isa 28:29
51 Isa 29:1 Isa 41:18
52 Isa 41:19 Isa 52:12
53 Isa 52:13 Isa 66:18
54 Isa 66:19 Jer 10:13
55 Jer 10:14 Jer 23:8
56 Jer 23:9 Jer 33:22
57 Jer 33:23 Jer 47:7
58 Jer 48:1 La 1:22
59 La 2:1 Eze 12:20
60 Eze 12:21 Eze 23:39
61 Eze 23:20 Eze 35:15
62 Eze 36:1 Eze 47:12
63 Eze 47:13 Da 8:27
64 Da 9:1 Hos 13:6
65 Hos 13:7 Am 9:10
66 Am 9:11 Nah 3:19
67 Hab 1:1 Zec 10:12
68 Zec 11:1 Mt 4:25
69 Mt 5:1 Mt 15:39
70 Mt 16:1 Mt 26:56
71 Mt 26:57 Mk 9:13
72 Mk 9:14 Lk 1:80
73 Lk 2:1 Lk 9:62
74 Lk 10:1 Lk 20:19
75 Lk 20:20 Jn 5:47
76 Jn 6:1 Jn 15:17
77 Jn 15:18 Ac 6:7
78 Ac 6:8 Ac 16:37
79 Ac 16:38 Ac 28:16
80 Ac 28:17 Ro 14:23
81 Ro 15:1 1Co 14:40
82 1Co 15:1 Gal 3:25
83 Gal 3:26 Col 4:18
84 1Th 1:1 Phm 25
85 Heb 1:1 Jas 3:12
86 Jas 3:13 3Jn 14
87 Jude 1 Rev 17:18
88 Rev 18:1 Rev 22:21

[Velo Princesse]

Just a general question: When do you all plan on doing your reading? Do you have a set time or are you planning on making time each day when you can?

I plan on reading while my son naps.

My *plan* is to wake up early and do it. Today, I did it during the only time in the morning when good cartoons are on... :)

Only thing thats irritated me was where John quoted it saying '45 minutes of your time'. I hate things that tell me how long I'm meant to take, since I read it--thoroughly--in 5

Timothy

5 minutes??? Wow... I thought I read pretty fast until just now. :)

Randi

[LiberatedChick]

I'm just doing it when I can...and maybe breaking it up into 2-3 chunks that I spread throughout the day instead of reading the days section in one go.

[loriersea]

5 minutes??? Wow... I thought I read pretty fast until just now. :)

LOL That's what I was thinking. It seems like every year I end up reading slower and remembering less of what I read, though.

[Inside Edge]

Only thing thats irritated me was where John quoted it saying '45 minutes of your time'. I hate things that tell me how long I'm meant to take, since I read it--thoroughly--in 5
Holy moly. That's fast.

[SirTimothy]

5 minutes??? Wow... I thought I read pretty fast until just now.

I read--and think--really fast. It's one of the reasons most normal bible studies irritate me. 10 verses is nothing. If I'm doing a scholarly research on them--smashing! But to just read them and try and think of something trite to say about them drives me nuts.

Timothy

[Fish and Bread]

Just a general question: When do you all plan on doing your reading? Do you have a set time or are you planning on making time each day when you can?

My plan was to do it in the morning, but I think I'm going to have to split it up! It's taking me far long that I expected. :) Most people are finishing more quickly than the study's 45 minute estimate, whereas I estimate by the time I finish all of today's readings, at the pace I'm going at, it'll have taken me two hours! I guess this confirms it, I'm a horribly slow reader. :) On the plus side, I get many hours of entertainment from the books I buy, so they're always a good value if I enjoy reading them! :)

John

[lonnienord]

My plan was to do it in the morning, but I think I'm going to have to split it up! It's taking me far long that I expected. :) Most people are finishing more quickly than the study's 45 minute estimate, whereas I estimate by the time I finish all of today's readings, at the pace I'm going at, it'll have taken me two hours! I guess this confirms it, I'm a horribly slow reader. :) On the plus side, I get many hours of entertainment from the books I buy, so they're always a good value if I enjoy reading them! :)

Johncourse you are making notes as you go. I have read the Bible cover to cover more than 10 times so i can get through it pretty fast (but i need to be careful not to go to fast cause there is always something new.

Also a suggestion: I know this will slow you all down a bit but it is very very important if you are going to get anything out of this:

Pray while you read. Pray before you read then as you read keep talking to GOD about what you are reading.

[Lel]

Only thing thats irritated me was where John quoted it saying '45 minutes of your time'. I hate things that tell me how long I'm meant to take, since I read it--thoroughly--in 5

Timothy

Five? It's taking me about 25 and I thought I was fast!

[Fish and Bread]

It's been an exciting first day of discussion over on the other thread. In about a half hour, further discussions about day one will kick over to this thread, along with additional comments on the first day's worth of readings, and initial comments by those who missed the deadline for day one; while the other thread will focus on day two's readings. :) Thanks to everyone who's participated thus far! :)

John

[karen freeinchristman]

I have found the comments on the day-by-day thread so interesting, I am going to give this a try, since I am only one day behind!

[Lel]

Hopefully you read at the pace of SirTimothy! :)

[lonnienord]

I have found the comments on the day-by-day thread so interesting, I am going to give this a try, since I am only one day behind!fantastic!! i am really glad you are going to join us!!

[svdbygrace]

Here's the whole reading plan...

DAY Start Verse End Verse

1 Ge 1:1 Ge 16:16
2 Ge 17:1 Ge 28:19
3 Ge 28:20 Ge 40:11
4 Ge 40:12 Ge 50:26
5 Ex 1:1 Ex 15:18
6 Ex 15:19 Ex 28:43
7 Ex 29:1 Ex 40:39
8 Le 1:1 Le 14:32
9 Le 14:33 Le 26:26
10 Le 26:27 Nu 8:14
11 Nu 8:15 Nu 21:7
12 Nu 21:8 Nu 32:19
13 Nu 32:20 Dt 7:26
14 Dt 8:1 Dt 23:11
15 Dt 23:12 Dt 34:12
16 Jos 1:1 Jos 14:15
17 Jos 15:1 Jdg 3:27
18 Jdg 3:28 Jdg 15:12
19 Jdg 15:13 1Sa 2:29
20 1Sa 2:30 1Sa 15:35
21 1Sa 16:1 1Sa 28:19
22 1Sa 28:20 2Sa 12:10
23 2Sa 12:11 2Sa 22:18
24 2Sa 22:19 1Ki 7:37
25 1Ki 7:38 1Ki 16:20
26 1Ki 16:21 2Ki 4:37
27 2Ki 4:38 2Ki 15:26
28 2Ki 15:27 2Ki 25:30
29 1Ch 1:1 1Ch 9:44
30 1Ch 10:1 1Ch 23:32
31 1Ch 24:1 2Ch 7:10
32 2Ch 7:11 2Ch 23:15
33 2Ch 23:16 2Ch 35:15
34 2Ch 35:16 Ez 10:44
35 Ne 1:1 Ne 13:14
36 Ne 13:15 Job 7:21
37 Job 8:1 Job 24:25
38 Job 25:1 Job 41:34
39 Job 42:1 Ps 24:10
40 Ps 25:1 Ps 45:14
41 Ps 45:15 Ps 69:21
42 Ps 69:22 Ps 89:13
43 Ps 89:14 Ps 108:13
44 Ps 109:1 Ps 134:3
45 Ps 135:1 Pr 6:35
46 Pr 7:1 Pr 20:21
47 Pr 20:22 Ecc 2:26
48 Ecc 3:1 SoS 8:14
49 Isa 1:1 Isa 13:22
50 Isa 14:1 Isa 28:29
51 Isa 29:1 Isa 41:18
52 Isa 41:19 Isa 52:12
53 Isa 52:13 Isa 66:18
54 Isa 66:19 Jer 10:13
55 Jer 10:14 Jer 23:8
56 Jer 23:9 Jer 33:22
57 Jer 33:23 Jer 47:7
58 Jer 48:1 La 1:22
59 La 2:1 Eze 12:20
60 Eze 12:21 Eze 23:39
61 Eze 23:20 Eze 35:15
62 Eze 36:1 Eze 47:12
63 Eze 47:13 Da 8:27
64 Da 9:1 Hos 13:6
65 Hos 13:7 Am 9:10
66 Am 9:11 Nah 3:19
67 Hab 1:1 Zec 10:12
68 Zec 11:1 Mt 4:25
69 Mt 5:1 Mt 15:39
70 Mt 16:1 Mt 26:56
71 Mt 26:57 Mk 9:13
72 Mk 9:14 Lk 1:80
73 Lk 2:1 Lk 9:62
74 Lk 10:1 Lk 20:19
75 Lk 20:20 Jn 5:47
76 Jn 6:1 Jn 15:17
77 Jn 15:18 Ac 6:7
78 Ac 6:8 Ac 16:37
79 Ac 16:38 Ac 28:16
80 Ac 28:17 Ro 14:23
81 Ro 15:1 1Co 14:40
82 1Co 15:1 Gal 3:25
83 Gal 3:26 Col 4:18
84 1Th 1:1 Phm 25
85 Heb 1:1 Jas 3:12
86 Jas 3:13 3Jn 14
87 Jude 1 Rev 17:18
88 Rev 18:1 Rev 22:21

Thanks! :)

[Fish and Bread]

I have found the comments on the day-by-day thread so interesting, I am going to give this a try, since I am only one day behind!

Awesome! :) Welcome! :)

John

[Velo Princesse]

I have found the comments on the day-by-day thread so interesting, I am going to give this a try, since I am only one day behind!

This is a great time to catch up because we haven't touched anything that you aren't already familiar with. So far it's been Creation, Noah, Abraham, Sodom & Gamorah and stuff like that. It'll be smooth reading for you.

Make sure to post questions and comments in here... we need to get this thread going. I think we are having a hard time transfering the coversations over...

Randi

[svdbygrace]

I'm following along, but won't be able to post regularly, as midterms/finals are soon approaching at school.

[lonnienord]

I'm following along, but won't be able to post regularly, as midterms/finals are soon approaching at school.if you continue spending quality time with GOD HE will reward you with good memory so you can pass your tests at school.

[svdbygrace]

if you continue spending quality time with GOD HE will reward you with good memory so you can pass your tests at school.

Great advice... thank you! :thumbsup: :)

[Fish and Bread]

I really have to stop taking such extensive notes on the bible as I go! It's really slowing up my reading! :) I enjoy the note taking, but at the 90 day pace, it's going to burn me out to spend all that time taking notes every day. It's just so hard to resist! The bible raises so many interesting questions! :) Maybe I'll limit myself to 1 or 2 notes per chapter or something. :)

John

[Velo Princesse]

I really have to stop taking such extensive notes on the bible as I go! It's really slowing up my reading! :) I enjoy the note taking, but at the 90 day pace, it's going to burn me out to spend all that time taking notes every day. It's just so hard to resist! The bible raises so many interesting questions! :) Maybe I'll limit myself to 1 or 2 notes per chapter or something. :)

John

Don't limit it to a specific number, just try to decide how important the question really is and whether or not anyone else will ask it. If you notice, with all the questions asked we tend to pick one or two and just discuss those so a lot of them just go unanswered. If it's effecting your reading, maybe you should just read and comment on our questions unless something is really bugging you... afterall, you reading is the important thing.

:)

Randi

[Lel]

if you continue spending quality time with GOD HE will reward you with good memory so you can pass your tests at school.

Or not, but God's more important than school anyway. ;) :P

[karen freeinchristman]

Just looking through the posts, I am wondering, am I a day behind? I am doing Gen 28:20 to Gen 40:11 today. is that right?

[lonnienord]

thats right

[Fish and Bread]

Just looking through the posts, I am wondering, am I a day behind? I am doing Gen 28:20 to Gen 40:11 today. is that right?

Today is day three, so you're right on schedule. :)

John

[karen freeinchristman]

thanks!

[Velo Princesse]

Hey guys. I'm just posting in case you've noticed that I'm not in the Day to Day thread today. Last night Brian and I discussed our future and determined that about the only way we could send our kids to college when they are old enough is if I can get a good job in a few years. Unfortunately my lovely GED will not get me that job, so I am going to use his GI Bill to attend school. See, I can go for free now and then use my education to pay for the kids to go later. That's the plan anyway.

However, I still want to homeschool my babes for as long as possible, so we struck a deal. Basically, if I can homeschool, keep the house clean and still have time left over that I could go to college I will enroll in, hopefully, the summer term.

So, what does this have to do w/ you? You guys are my college right now. For the rest of our little Bible study, I will be waking up in the morning to clean up, then do school, then read my Bible and get online to talk w/ you. For the past few days I've been on first thing in the morning so I just wanted to let you know about the schedule change. I'm really looking forward to my reading today and talking w/ you all about it. I have some catch-up to do on the house first, though. The more I do w/ the house today, the less I have to worry about tomorrow.

So, I'll be on to talk to you later. If you didn't notice (or didn't care) that I wasn't posting yet, just disregard this message. :)

Randi

PS- I'm adding this little adventure to my prayer requests in my profile. If you guys would pray for me it would be much appreciated. :prayer:

[lonnienord]

wow!! what are you planning to take in college?

[karen freeinchristman]

Wow! that sounds cool, Randi! :thumbsup:

Keep us informed, we'll pray for you!

P.S. the hair.... totally pink!

[Velo Princesse]

wow!! what are you planning to take in college?

Psychology. It was the only class I was interested in in High School. Even on days when I skipped school, I still went to Psychology. I'm hoping that carries over.

:)

[Velo Princesse]

Wow! that sounds cool, Randi! :thumbsup:

Keep us informed, we'll pray for you!

P.S. the hair.... totally pink!

I really love the hair! Wish I had the guts to do it in real life......

I will keep you informed, but it will be a while. I'm preparing for classes in the Summer Term... Winter term is just starting, so it will be a bit. :)

Randi

[Velo Princesse]

I was thinking of switching over and doing my daily reading from my NRSV. Anyone else doing that?

I'm curious about the differences between KJV and NRSV but all of my reading time is spent in NIV.... plus, I could give this Bible to my cousin, who I think would really enjoy it.


Randi

[LiberatedChick]

I'm using my NRSV for the readings. Whilst I do have an NIV I've read quite a bit of that translation already so figured I might as well use a different translation and hence put to use the NRSV I'd recently bought.

As for differences, I'm not totally sure. The main thing for me is that I find the NRSV much easier to read than the KJV.

[Fish and Bread]

Psychology. It was the only class I was interested in in High School. Even on days when I skipped school, I still went to Psychology. I'm hoping that carries over.

:)

If you've never done so before, you may want to consider taking a Sociology elective or two. I found that subject unexpectedly fascinating when I was in college. :)

John

[Fish and Bread]

I was thinking of switching over and doing my daily reading from my NRSV. Anyone else doing that?

I'm really finding the 90-Day NIV bible helpful. It may partly because of the large type size, though. I have some eye problems and straining to look at small type sometimes can cause me to develop migraine headaches, or make pre-existing ones worse. :) I also like the simplicity of the translation. When I'm looking stuff up, I prefer the accuracy of the NRSV, but when I'm reading 12 pages at a time, I like something I don't have to think about as much. :) The pagination setup also makes it easy for me to figure out how many more pages are left.

Book 2: Exodus starts tomorrow. :) I'm really excited about moving through the Torah. :)

John

[Lel]

Psychology. It was the only class I was interested in in High School. Even on days when I skipped school, I still went to Psychology. I'm hoping that carries over.

:)

I can't think of much of another way to say this but DON'T DO IT!!! A psychology degree is not worth the paper it is printed on, unless it is a Ph.D. or at an equivalent level. The psych degree does nothing for you. Nobody cares if you have a college degree or not at the job level of a psych degree. If you want a degree, get it in something like business or engineering and just take psych classes for general credits or minor in it or something.

A psychology degree at the Bachelors level won't get you any better of a job than a GED will. (Okay, maybe I'm just ornery because I'm speaking from experience! :sorry: )

[Velo Princesse]

(Okay, maybe I'm just ornery because I'm speaking from experience! :sorry: )

You have a psych degree?

[Velo Princesse]

I would go for business if it weren't for this:

Business Major (53 hrs):
Principles of Accounting I (4 hrs)
Principles of Accounting II (4 hrs)
Intermediate Accounting I (3 hrs)
Intermediate Accounting II (3 hrs)
Taxation I (3 hrs)
Intro. to Computer Applications (3 hrs)
Business Law
Principles of Management (3 hrs)
Corporate Finance (3 hrs)
Managerial Accounting (3 hrs)
Marketing (3 hrs)
Principles of Economics I (3 hrs)
Principles of Economics II (3 hrs)
Math 201 - Probability & Statistics (3 hrs)
Business - Electives (9 hrs)

Too many math classes and my head might explode. Anyway, my husband said the same exact thing so I might end up having to suffer through it... if too many people agree I'll have no choice, I guess.

[Lel]

You have a psych degree?

Yeah, a B.S. in Psych. ;)

[Lel]

Eh, okay, I admit it. I'm a math geek...well...I don't know much about it, but I like numbers!

[karen freeinchristman]

I can't think of much of another way to say this but DON'T DO IT!!! A psychology degree is not worth the paper it is printed on, unless it is a Ph.D. or at an equivalent level. The psych degree does nothing for you.
Something that needs saying at this point is that it depends on what Randi sees herself doing after the degree. If she does business studies, and if really deep down her heart is not in it, what good is that? I have been thinking a lot about vocation lately, for obvious reasons. Our vocation is what God wants us to do with our lives. What we do for a living makes for quite a lot of our time and our commitment. We need to be sure it is something we will love doing!

Randi, what would you like to see yourself doing in 5 years time? Whatever that is, take the course which will lead to it! The education of your kids is important, and I think it is great that you want to finance that. Just make sure you don't get stuck in a path that won't fit you, that's all.

As John says, sociology is so similar to psycology, and there is a lot of need for good social workers in this world. You don't need a PhD to be a counselor to youths who are in trouble, or to battered women. (This may not appeal to you, but it is just an example). Just my 2 cents worth.

[lonnienord]

* In general, the idea of bad things happening to Joseph so things could work to the good was an interesting one. One seems where the idea of suffering being good that exists in some Christian denominations comes from, though notable here also is that everything worked out in the end. It wasn't suffering for suffering's sake, it was suffering that was part of God's plan to produce good (Like the cross). What is your concept of suffering? Do you see it as a gift from GOD? Do you see it as a way to avoid Purgatory?

[lonnienord]

*Genesis 48:15-16- There's lots of neat stuff in these two verses, including the first reference to God as a shephred, the first reference to guardian angels, and, of course, this is probably the point at which Israel goes from being a concept embodied in Jacob to formally becoming a nation. Genesis 48:15-16 15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, 16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.


15 Then he blessed Joseph and said,
"May the God before whom my fathers
Abraham and Isaac walked,
the God who has been my shepherd
all my life to this day, 16 the Angel who has delivered me from all harm
—may he bless these boys.
May they be called by my name
and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac,
and may they increase greatly
upon the earth."
wow NIV is so much better!! Thank you John for pointing these verses out!!
and again thank you for this great Bible experience!!

[lonnienord]

The only thing that really caught my attention today, was the fact that Jacob wanted to be buried with his fathers and Leah, as opposed to Rachel. I would think that you would want to be burried w/ the womean you loved above all other. This struck me because even though he loved Rachel and cherished her sons over his other sons, Leah obviously still held a higher position and was respected as his first wife, even when he was dying.

I really enjoy Josephs story. The entire thing... I just love it! As was already mentioned, it says so much about his character that he forgave his brothers and saw the horrible things they did to him as being a part of God's plan. I wish I could look at hard times in my life that same way.

Another thing this reading brought to mind was something I saw on the Discovery channel a few years ago. They found a mummy in Egypt, burried amongst royalty, that was hebrew. Because of the age of the body, they thought at the time that it could have been Joseph, if I remember correctly. Just thought that was interesting...

:)

Randi
there is a theory that one only has one ligit spouse at a time and that is the one one marries first; and one can only marry again after that person dies. I wonder if that was what Israel was trying to teach us here.

[Lel]

Something that needs saying at this point is that it depends on what Randi sees herself doing after the degree. If she does business studies, and if really deep down her heart is not in it, what good is that? I have been thinking a lot about vocation lately, for obvious reasons. Our vocation is what God wants us to do with our lives. What we do for a living makes for quite a lot of our time and our commitment. We need to be sure it is something we will love doing!

Randi, what would you like to see yourself doing in 5 years time? Whatever that is, take the course which will lead to it! The education of your kids is important, and I think it is great that you want to finance that. Just make sure you don't get stuck in a path that won't fit you, that's all.

As John says, sociology is so similar to psycology, and there is a lot of need for good social workers in this world. You don't need a PhD to be a counselor to youths who are in trouble, or to battered women. (This may not appeal to you, but it is just an example). Just my 2 cents worth.

I didn't mean to discount what she wants to do with her life at all. Something like social work, a little different but still related in some ways, might just be what the doctor ordered.

[Velo Princesse]

Something that needs saying at this point is that it depends on what Randi sees herself doing after the degree. If she does business studies, and if really deep down her heart is not in it, what good is that? I have been thinking a lot about vocation lately, for obvious reasons. Our vocation is what God wants us to do with our lives. What we do for a living makes for quite a lot of our time and our commitment. We need to be sure it is something we will love doing!

It's not so much what I see myself doing as it is being able to do something. It's hard to see myself doing anything other than what I am doing right now. A business degree would work out better because after I'm done, depending on where we live and other variables, we might want me to continue homeschooling for a few years before I go to work. If that happens, I'll need to volunteer for a while to keep my resume full, gain experience, ect. while I am still basically a housewife & homeschool mom. If we still live out in the boonies like we do now there are plenty of volunteer opportunities that would make use of a business degree but none that would make use of a psych degree. After reading Lel's post, and talking to her in chat last night, I put a bit more thought into what I'm wanting to acheive and she was right, I think. The goal is for me to be useful outside of the home, so the more useful degree is what I need.

Randi, what would you like to see yourself doing in 5 years time? Whatever that is, take the course which will lead to it! The education of your kids is important, and I think it is great that you want to finance that. Just make sure you don't get stuck in a path that won't fit you, that's all.

If I could pick anything to do in 5 years, I would probably want to work w/ Habitat for Humanity. I don't know why, exactly... I have a small obsession w/ them. Barring that, I would probably want to work as a head teller in a bank. Something I'm pretty sure requires a post-secondary and not a bachelors degree. The big thing is that I can go for free right now, and in 5 years I definately want to have earned a degree. Lel was right. After looking into it, psychology would be a fun major but not the degree I'm looking for.

As John says, sociology is so similar to psycology, and there is a lot of need for good social workers in this world. You don't need a PhD to be a counselor to youths who are in trouble, or to battered women. (This may not appeal to you, but it is just an example). Just my 2 cents worth.

I wish that appealed to me. It actually makes me feel bad that the thought of doing that makes me cringe. It's not because I'm heartless... actually, I think it's the exact opposite. I can't even watch the news because their are so many 'dead baby' stories... I think I'd have a complete mental breakdown if I tried to be a social worker.

I didn't mean to discount what she wants to do with her life at all. Something like social work, a little different but still related in some ways, might just be what the doctor ordered.

You didn't discount anything. I'm glad you said something. I had my mind set on a major w/out really thinking about what I would do with it... Hey- you know you have to have a business degree to manage a Sonic?? LOL

Thanks guys,

Randi

[karen freeinchristman]

That's cool, Randi. I said what I said because at the moment I just happen to know quite a few people who are dissatisfied with the choices they made regarding their careers/jobs etc, so it's something that is at the top of my consciousness. If you feel happy with your decision, that is all that matters! :)

[Velo Princesse]

That's cool, Randi. I said what I said because at the moment I just happen to know quite a few people who are dissatisfied with the choices they made regarding their careers/jobs etc, so it's something that is at the top of my consciousness. If you feel happy with your decision, that is all that matters! :)

Thanks for saying it. It gave me a "Karen's got my back" feeling. :) Unfortunately, Lel was saying what she said because she is one of those people who are dissatisfied w/ career choices. I'm glad she spoke up. It probably saved me from that same feeling.

Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into a thread about me. :) That's what the blogs are for!

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

* What is your concept of suffering? Do you see it as a gift from GOD? Do you see it as a way to avoid Purgatory?

I think that suffering can be something that God uses for the good when it happens, but I don't think that it is good in and of itself. I think the part in italics is most likely the distinction between my own views and those of some of the more conservative orders in union with the Vatican. I don't believe that God is happy if we bring pain on ourselves, either intentionally through a plan or unintentionally through doing the wrong thing, but I do believe that God can make something good come out of it, because he loves us and wants to help us and help others.

As far as the issue of purgatory goes, I am agnostic on the subject. I am not sure if it exists and, if it exists, what the nature of it is. Maybe this bible study will be helpful in more exactly defining my views on that subject.

John

[Fish and Bread]

*


wow NIV is so much better!! Thank you John for pointing these verses out!!
and again thank you for this great Bible experience!!

You're welcome! I can't get over how neat this is. So far I can only think of one time where I've sat down and read and not been glad I did afterwards and that was probably due to a splitting headache I had at the time! All the other times, I've really enjoyed it. I feel like I'm learning a lot about the bible and the faith. I'll be really happy when I can say I've read the entire bible start to finish. Not only will it be an accomplishment, but also it'll help me put things in context when various verses and stories are mentioned.

John

[Fish and Bread]

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this, which I raised late yesterday in the other thread (Moved over here, since it is from yesterday's reading and thus no long appropriate on the day by day thread):

Genesis 46:7 says 70 people came out of Egypt, including Joseph's two sons. Footnoted is that the Greek version of Genesis says 75 people came out and that Joseph had nine children (Presumably seven of them were daughters). Now, immediately obvious was that Joseph only had male children listed above, so might also have had those seven daughters, but only if daughters were included in the rest of the account (Since I think we can assume that at least one of his other 11 brothers had a daughter or more). I read back over it, only one women was mentioned, and she wasn't included in the 66 figure mentioned prior to counting those still in Egypt: Jacob, Jacob's children, and Benjamin. So, both figures were supposed to be without women, meaning even if Joseph did have seven daughters, they shouldn't have been included in the count.

So, one would think, obviously, the Greek is wrong and the original Hebrew is right. But not so fast. Acts of the Apostles references 75 Israelites going to Egypt at this time (Which I suppose the Greek version may have "corrected" Genesis to reflect). So, how do we reconcile the 70 people in Genesis with the 75 in Acts of the Apostles? Any thoughts?

John

[karen freeinchristman]

Genesis 46:7 says 70 people came out of Egypt, including Joseph's two sons. Footnoted is that the Greek version of Genesis says 75 people came out
Too complicated for me to work out! Reminds me of those math exam questions back in school! :o

[Velo Princesse]

So, how do we reconcile the 70 people in Genesis with the 75 in Acts of the Apostles? Any thoughts?

John


A couple thousand years between writings?? :scratch:

[Fish and Bread]

A couple thousand years between writings?? :scratch:

Well, yeah, but besides that. :) Is there any way both figures could be correct that doesn't really strain credibility?

John

[Lel]

That's cool, Randi. I said what I said because at the moment I just happen to know quite a few people who are dissatisfied with the choices they made regarding their careers/jobs etc, so it's something that is at the top of my consciousness. If you feel happy with your decision, that is all that matters! :)

I do admit, I got degrees in psychology and political science and ended up working in Accounting and oddly enough love it. Maybe the fact that my co-workers are here too and (mostly) liking it is skewing my perception a bit! :holy:

[Velo Princesse]

Well, yeah, but besides that. :) Is there any way both figures could be correct that doesn't really strain credibility?

John

I don't see how two different numbers could be correct w/out straining credibility. It's more likely that only one of them, or neither of them, is correct. Some things need to be chalked up to generations having passed between the writings.

Of course, if the latter writing was written by a gentile, he might not have been familiar w/ the story and wrote down what he remembered Jesus having said. That could account for an error on his part, making the earlier version correct. But I don't know who wrote the second version, so I'm just throwing that out there.

Randi

[Velo Princesse]

there is a theory that one only has one ligit spouse at a time and that is the one one marries first; and one can only marry again after that person dies. I wonder if that was what Israel was trying to teach us here.

Maybe, except that in the stories there is a distinct line drawn between wives and concubines and there have consistantly been multible wives and multible concubines. That would lead me to believe that each wife is ligit, thus they are called wives. If they weren't ligit they would have been called concubines and there would have only been one wife.

I'm wondering if the point was that Israel wanted to be burried w/ his fathers and she just happened to be their also.

Randi

[Lel]

Well, I shouldn't say this, but I'm having second thoughts about doing this. The more I read, the more I just don't like God, the more I wonder why I'm worshipping God, the more I completely doubt this faith.

So far I am not leaving faith aside, but the more I read, the more I just don't like what I'm seeing.

[karen freeinchristman]

Well, I shouldn't say this, but I'm having second thoughts about doing this. The more I read, the more I just don't like God, the more I wonder why I'm worshipping God, the more I completely doubt this faith.

So far I am not leaving faith aside, but the more I read, the more I just don't like what I'm seeing.
I can relate to this, Lel! As I am reading these parts of the OT, I just feel embarrassed about it in a way. It reinforces my thinking that the Bible, especially the OT, can't be taken in a totally literal way. But as many have said, it is a progressive revelation of God to human beings. And we are reading about the earliest recorded days of that revelation. It was so long ago! They wrote the oral stories and traditions down, and their lives were so different to ours, they looked at life very differently. So it is bound to be slightly alien to us now.

I think to myself, no wonder some people think Christianity isn't true, if they pick up the Bible and read some of this stuff. But I hope you persevere, because as we read on, it will get better, and the threads of truth that God has been revealing to people that we are reading about now will come together and we know that his true loving nature makes itself much more apparent as the centuries go by, later on in the Bible, ultimately in Jesus. The revelation of God in Jesus is so different to the God we are reading about now, it is hard to reconcile them.

[lonnienord]

The first- Moses according to Disney makes much more sense to me! LOL. What changes did Disney make that appeal to you?

[lonnienord]

Well, I shouldn't say this, but I'm having second thoughts about doing this. The more I read, the more I just don't like God, the more I wonder why I'm worshipping God, the more I completely doubt this faith.

So far I am not leaving faith aside, but the more I read, the more I just don't like what I'm seeing.1. you should say this!! and thank you for honestly sharing!! and thank you for continuing this reading.

As you know i have read ahead and we win!!
Also in my reading ahead (i have read the Bible cover to cover more than 10 times) i find that Justice, love and grace prevale. Especially love!! the tyrant GOD becomes a lover. Did HE change? probably not it is probably just our perception caught up with reality.

By the way did i mention prayer. We need to surround and lace our reading of scripture with prayer!! And another aspect of your post is a reminder to me and i'll make it to everyone else. Let us pray specifically for everyone in this cover to cover experience!!

[lonnienord]

I think it's not about the Egyptians, to be honest. I personally think it was a way to try and show the Israelites how much God valued them. He values us in the same way, today. God is a people person. :)

Timothy

wow excellent insite!! i had never thought of it in that way.

[karen freeinchristman]

the tyrant GOD becomes a lover. Did HE change? probably not it is probably just our perception caught up with reality.
:thumbsup: Good way of putting it, lonnie!
By the way did i mention prayer. We need to surround and lace our reading of scripture with prayer!! And another aspect of your post is a reminder to me and i'll make it to everyone else. Let us pray specifically for everyone in this cover to cover experience!!Thank you for reminding us of this! :) :groupray:

[lonnienord]

http://evolutionoftruth.com/images/evolution.gif
i am slow!! i don't understand this. Is it a put down of evolutionists? Cause GOD never said anything about Evolution. or is there something else here i am missing?

[karen freeinchristman]

http://evolutionoftruth.com/images/evolution.gif
i am slow!! i don't understand this. Is it a put down of evolutionists? Cause GOD never said anything about Evolution. or is there something else here i am missing?First of all, it's just a little humor! :) But apart from that, it is what some people actually do believe, that God himself created things to evolve - that he created evolution.

[Fish and Bread]

Expect a catchup post from yesterday a bit later today! I got back from my service last night and got wracking migraine headaches, stomach sickness, and hot and cold flashes. Needless to say, I didn't get much bible reading in! Fortunately, though, I did get to church prior and I'm feeling well enough this morning to go to my sports bar to watch the Ravens upset the division leading Cincinatti Bengals (Note that I'm saying this before the game, so when we win, remember, I called it. ;)). So, anyhow, today, I'll be doing double duty bible wise, and of course yesterday's comments will go here. :)

John

[lonnienord]

Go Bengals!!

[lonnienord]

First of all, it's just a little humor! :) But apart from that, it is what some people actually do believe, that God himself created things to evolve - that he created evolution.i knew it was humor. but i was wondering if the cartoonist was a creationist (which according to what you said seems likely) or was the artist saying that GOD did indeed use evolution to create the universe??

[Naomi4Christ]

Go Bengals!!

Are you from Cincinnati? I spent 6 years of my life there.:confused:

[Lel]

Go Bengals!!

Shhhhhh Lonnie! :P

[lonnienord]

Are you from Cincinnati? I spent 6 years of my life there.:confused:i've been there. i live in the Cleveland area and we are mad at the owner of the ravens for abandaning Cleveland

[Naomi4Christ]

My ILs are in Cuyahoga Cty - I don't think I have ever heard them say "Go Bengals"...

[Lel]

i've been there. i live in the Cleveland area and we are mad at the owner of the ravens for abandaning Cleveland

Naomi: the Cincinnati Bengals are playing the Baltimore Ravens today. The Clevelanders don't like the Bengals, but they hate the Ravens even more because their owner left Cleveland for Baltimore about ten years ago. They don't like the Cincinnati Bengals, but they absolutely hate the Baltimore Ravens.

With that in mind, Go Ravens!!!

/me runs away, armor in hand. :holy:

[Naomi4Christ]

Naomi: the Cincinnati Bengals are playing the Baltimore Ravens today. The Clevelanders don't like the Bengals, but they hate the Ravens even more because their owner left Cleveland for Baltimore about ten years ago. They don't like the Cincinnati Bengals, but they absolutely hate the Baltimore Ravens.

With that in mind, Go Ravens!!!

* Lel runs away, armor in hand. :holy:

I seem to remember the Cleveland Browns moving to Baltimore about ?15 years ago (I don't think they were called the Ravens, but it wasn't the Browns either), but they returned to Cleveland a few years later. Have they moved again?

ps: I have a Dawg Tag from approx. 1987

pps: I find the whole subject incredibly dull, especially in light of the hype from the local news media :D

ppps: I'm glad I didn't live in Columbus where the only thing to look forward to was mind-numbing coverage of Ohio State

[Velo Princesse]

I seem to remember the Cleveland Browns moving to Baltimore about ?15 years ago (I don't think they were called the Ravens, but it wasn't the Browns either), but they returned to Cleveland a few years later. Have they moved again?

My understanding is that they were the Browns and then the owner couldn't wait to get a new stadium so he left for Baltimore and they became the Ravens. Then, a few years ago, Cleaveland got the Browns 'back' but it's a whole new team so they actually started from the beginning.

My husband is from Cleaveland(ish). This is a very Browns household... I think Brian used to have a friend who was a Ravens fan... haven't seen that guy around in a while. ;)

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

i've been there. i live in the Cleveland area and we are mad at the owner of the ravens for abandaning Cleveland

Art Modell sold the majority of the team's shares a couple years ago, so we have a new majority owner now -- Steve Bischotti. Also, Cleveland got back a team within three years of losing the old Browns, which is playing a brand new stadium, and got to keep the Browns name, colors, and franchise records. When Baltimore lost the Colts, we got none of those perks. So, between the fact that Modell is out as majority partner and there is a new Browns franchise, isn't it about time Cleveland forgave and forgot?

John

[Velo Princesse]

Well, I shouldn't say this, but I'm having second thoughts about doing this. The more I read, the more I just don't like God, the more I wonder why I'm worshipping God, the more I completely doubt this faith.

So far I am not leaving faith aside, but the more I read, the more I just don't like what I'm seeing.

You should talk to Fish & Bread about this. It was one of my major questions and he has wonderful insight. I would repeat what he said, but I won't do it justice.

Tell him to give you the bit about God being harsh then because of {insert what he said to me here}... hopefully he'll know what I'm talking about. If not, I think I kept the e-mail and I'll send it to you.

Randi

[lonnienord]

sure ~ and i'm glad to here that Modell is out. and as a christian i can easily forgive and forget

but you got to realize that this is football and rivaleries are what makes football interesting.

[Naomi4Christ]

but you got to realize that this is football and rivaleries are what makes football interesting.

like Man U beating Chelsea today :D

[Velo Princesse]

What changes did Disney make that appeal to you?

It was more colorful :thumbsup:. Seriously... in the actual Biblical account I am completely unclear as to what led Moses from being raised Egyptian royalty to killing the man for beating the hebrew. Things like that. I might just be a bit to visual for my own good. I don't think Disney really changed anything, they just elaborated a bit.

Teri (my sister) said that Disney changed the story and that Moses knew the whole time that he was Hebrew. I was expecting to see that in the Biblical account, but I didn't. I think I just was expecting more out of the story than what I got. It seems to leave much to the imagination.

Randi

[Velo Princesse]

So, between the fact that Modell is out as majority partner and there is a new Browns franchise, isn't it about time Cleveland forgave and forgot?

John

NO! Football & Baseball are only areas in life where it's okay to hold a grudge. Pretty sure that's in the Bible. ;)

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

I seem to remember the Cleveland Browns moving to Baltimore about ?15 years ago (I don't think they were called the Ravens, but it wasn't the Browns either), but they returned to Cleveland a few years later. Have they moved again?

The move was announced in the middle of the 1995 season. The team continued play in Cleveland as the Cleveland Browns for the remainder of that year (I was immediately glued to my television set) and then changed their name during the off-season and began training camp in 1996 as the Baltimore Ravens, playing the 1996 season in Baltimore. This season is being billed as the 10th Anniversery season for the Ravens.

There was a short time where we actually thought they'd be the Baltimore Browns, and there were some t-shirts printed up with that name, but it never materialized. Modell ultimately left the Browns name, colors, and franchise records in Cleveland as a goodwill gesture; and an expansion team was created for Cleveland a few years later.

So, the actual team that used to be the Cleveland Browns became the Baltimore Ravens and continues in Baltimore to this day, but the name, colors, and heritage of the Cleveland Browns was left in Cleveland and a new franchise was created there to continue it.

John

[Velo Princesse]

i knew it was humor. but i was wondering if the cartoonist was a creationist (which according to what you said seems likely) or was the artist saying that GOD did indeed use evolution to create the universe??

I got it from a creationist website about Phi. The link said 'Here's one for the evolutionists'. I would imagine that the cartoonist believes that God used evolution...

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

but you got to realize that this is football and rivaleries are what makes football interesting.

Can't we all just agree to hate the Steelers? ;)

John

[Velo Princesse]

Can't we all just agree to hate the Steelers? ;)

John

I'm good w/ that! LOL

[lonnienord]

yup works for me too.

[Velo Princesse]

Should we make T-Shirts??? ^_^

[lonnienord]

Should we make T-Shirts??? ^_^what should our slogan be: CF 90 dayers for Pittsburgh :scratch: ???

[Lel]

Against Pittsburgh, Lonnie! :P

[lonnienord]

boy did i blow that one lets see:

CF 90 dayers against Pittsburgh

[Fish and Bread]

Some comments from yesterday's reading, posted here since I fell behind due to feeling under the weather and sleeping when I should have been bible reading last night. ;)

General comments:

-The story of Egypt actually seems similar to Israel's story in a way. God keeps demonstrating his faithfulness, power, and love; and both people's realize it from time to time and then fall away. We can see over and over with the Phaoroh how he repents of his sin and agrees to allow the Israelites to worship, then falls right back into the sin. When they finally depart, he even demands a blessing, recognizing the power of God. But then he's back trying to get his armies to hunt Moses and his followers down. Now, granted, the bible is pretty explicit here: God hardened the Phoaroh's heart. But I didn't see the Egyptians, even the convinced ones convert, even after the Israelites departed and left for all time.

Question to throw up for discussion: If they had wanted to, could the Egyptians have converted? Or were their hearts hardened until the coming of Jesus (After which Alexandria became a huge center of Christian worship, one of the five historic patriarchies)?

- The Passover is not only a real Jewish holiday, but in a sense a Christian allegory. The lamb is Jesus and his blood saves us from God's wrath, just as happened with Israel, only on a scale that applies to more people and offers a greater level of forgiveness.

Point of interest: Were the Israelies saved because they were faithful and did a work stemming from faith, or simply because they did a specific work? If the former, how would a Christian who believes works contribute to faith explain St. Paul's sharp differentiation between the way the Jews lived and we as Christian who live by faith?

Verse specific:

Exodus 4:11- This is an acknowledgement of God's sovereignty, not an implication that sin is always responsible for blindness. I draw the later from Jesus' interpretation, and of course Jesus' interpretation is definitive for Christians.

Exodus 10:22- Darkness here that befalls Egpyt for three days as a sign of God's displeasure similar to the darkness that befalls Israel when Jesus died (And Jesus was dead for three days).

Exodus 13:16- The sign of the cross some make on their foreheads before the gospel is read may stem from this.

What do you all think?

John

[karen freeinchristman]

Question to throw up for discussion: If they had wanted to, could the Egyptians have converted? Or were their hearts hardened until the coming of Jesus (After which Alexandria became a huge center of Christian worship, one of the five historic patriarchies)?

- The Passover is not only a real Jewish holiday, but in a sense a Christian allegory. The lamb is Jesus and his blood saves us from God's wrath, just as happened with Israel, only on a scale that applies to more people and offers a greater level of forgiveness.

Point of interest: Were the Israelies saved because they were faithful and did a work stemming from faith, or simply because they did a specific work? If the former, how would a Christian who believes works contribute to faith explain St. Paul's sharp differentiation between the way the Jews lived and we as Christian who live by faith?

Verse specific:

Exodus 4:11- This is an acknowledgement of God's sovereignty, not an implication that sin is always responsible for blindness. I draw the later from Jesus' interpretation, and of course Jesus' interpretation is definitive for Christians.

Exodus 10:22- Darkness here that befalls Egpyt for three days as a sign of God's displeasure similar to the darkness that befalls Israel when Jesus died (And Jesus was dead for three days).

Exodus 13:16- The sign of the cross some make on their foreheads before the gospel is read may stem from this.

What do you all think?

John
I think those were great comments and questions! :)

[lonnienord]

Exodus 12:38And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.


So there were some egyptians who traviled with them. We may get more info on this in later books

[lonnienord]

Point of interest: Were the Israelies saved because they were faithful and did a work stemming from faith, or simply because they did a specific work? If the former, how would a Christian who believes works contribute to faith explain St. Paul's sharp differentiation between the way the Jews lived and we as Christian who live by faith?
i look forward to discussing this much more in a couple of months - when we get to Paul

[lonnienord]

Question to throw up for discussion: If they had wanted to, could the Egyptians have converted? Or were their hearts hardened until the coming of Jesus (After which Alexandria became a huge center of Christian worship, one of the five historic patriarchies)?

i think some Egyptians did convert and left with the Children of Israel. I think we my read more about this in the next three books

[lonnienord]

Exodus 10:22- Darkness here that befalls Egpyt for three days as a sign of God's displeasure similar to the darkness that befalls Israel when Jesus died (And Jesus was dead for three days).

excellent observation!!

[karen freeinchristman]

I am now a day behind!:eek: I am finding it hard to keep up, what with having to read all of the other CF posts as well, which takes a long time!


I think the laws God gave to Moses after the 10 commandments are really interesting. They are so detailed! Are Jewish people still held accountable to these?

[LiberatedChick]

A little something I found today regarding the story of Joseph...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/biblemysteries/joseph.shtml

It's an article related to a BBC program that aired in February...I missed it but it sounds interesting. The first part of the link just describes the story of Joseph...further down it goes into some scientific findings that could support the story.

[karen freeinchristman]

A little something I found today regarding the story of Joseph...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/biblemysteries/joseph.shtml

It's an article related to a BBC program that aired in February...I missed it but it sounds interesting. The first part of the link just describes the story of Joseph...further down it goes into some scientific findings that could support the story.
That was interesting. I like the way it describes the story.

[lonnienord]

I am now a day behind!:eek: I am finding it hard to keep up, what with having to read all of the other CF posts as well, which takes a long time!


I think the laws God gave to Moses after the 10 commandments are really interesting. They are so detailed! Are Jewish people still held accountable to these?here is what i do: The first thing i do when i sit down to my computer is read the texts for the day and post my comments then i read what others have written and do any discussion i feel led to do.

I know we will get to this in a couple of months so i am sort of waiting but i want to pose the question now cause i want us to be aware of this question.

Why would Jewish people be held accountable to the laws and not Christians?

[Fish and Bread]

I think those were great comments and questions! :)

Thanks! :)

John

[Fish and Bread]

I am now a day behind!:eek: I am finding it hard to keep up, what with having to read all of the other CF posts as well, which takes a long time!

I'm actually having to skip over some STR discussion threads entirely. Shhhh! Don't tell anyone. ;)

I think the laws God gave to Moses after the 10 commandments are really interesting. They are so detailed! Are Jewish people still held accountable to these?

Well, whether God still holds them accountable or not is a very controversial subject. One of the three main divisions of Judiasm (At least in the United States), does indeed hold to the laws of both the written and the oral torah (i.e. the bible and tradition) to the letter. They even have their own "catechism" (ala the Roman Catholic Church) of sorts, known as the Talmud. These Jews are known as the "orthodox Jews" and are often fairly noticeable due to their distinctive patterns of dress.

Another sect, known as "conservative Judiasm", still has rules but adapts them to modern society, meaning they might, for example, keep kosher, but not do certain other things. I think they do at least have set guidelines, though.

The third major sect is Reform Judiasm. I went to a shabbat service at a reform shul (Well, they called it a temple, but I am hesitant to affirm that choice of language, which seems contrary to their own religious heritage). Many of the men did not wear yamakas, the rabbi and the cantor wore secular dress clothes, the service was predominantly in English, and many of the prayers were somewhat liberal leaning. They tried in include the names of women from the Torah in many of the texts in places where doing so felt artificial and one prayer actually said something along the lines of "God can't build a bridge or do anything tangible, but he can make us feel better".

The Reform Jews also aren't required to keep kosher or anything, though they can if they wish to to as an optional observance. My Reform Jewish friend doesn't keep kosher to such an extent that she has well known love for bacon, in fact. She once called me when she was out of bacon and expressed her love and desire for bacon so strongly that if I hadn't known better I would have almost thought bacon was a euphamism for a man. Also, if she is any indication, Reform Judiasm is somewhat causal about it's observance of holidays. I sent her an IM three days into Hannukka last year that said "Happy Hannukka!" and I got back "Oh. Has that started yet?". Granted, that isn't one of the foremost holidays on the Jewish calendar (The idea that it is is a popular misconception). She did celebrate Passover, but when I asked her if her family splattered blood on the doorstep, she looked at me like I was insane and said of course not. I said "You do at least serve a lamb, right?" and she replied "I don't know, I think we might do turkey instead.". I found it all kind of amusing. :)

I think I would have been annoyed were I an orthodox Jew or married to someone like that, though. I can just picture myself saying "Oy vey! I may be a Christian, but if we're going to do Passover, we're going to do it with a lamb and with blood! What are you, a goy? Abraham preserve me!". ;) I had two Jewish great-grandparents, actually, thought I never had a chance to meet them. I almost wish I had. Judiasm is fascinating to me.

John

[karen freeinchristman]

Well, whether God still holds them accountable or not is a very controversial subject.
Thanks for your post. I kind of forgot about the three different 'levels' of contemporary Jewish observance. I guess all religions have people who follow things to differing degrees.

She once called me when she was out of bacon and expressed her love and desire for bacon so strongly that if I hadn't known better I would have almost thought bacon was a euphamism for a man.
:o

[Fish and Bread]

Some quick notes from yesterday's reading:

- The law passages were actually kind of beautiful, in their own way. You can see why folks felt it was written on their hearts. On the other hand, as kind of a counterpart, there's so much of it that that it gets kind of tedious at times. I must admit, I shudder at the thought of the Book of Leviticus. But maybe I'll find it easier to read than I think. :)

-I liked the Song of Moses and Miriam. Good stuff, very poetic. :)

-There are a *ton* of high church practices instituted by God -- an ark, a tabernacle, candlelaberas, etc. We even see the infamous Old Testament bread of the presence. :) I think when we get to the New Testament, we're going to want to look closely on whether Jesus ever actually says not to do things in a similar way.

- Exodus 17:14-16; "Right hand" a possible to reference to Jesus? Or would that be stretching things?

-Exodus 22:2-3; Why does the penalty here differ before and after sunrise? I don't understand the moral distinction. :)

John

[lonnienord]

Some of the biggest considerations is going to be: Did Jesus intend to retool the system with a nation of the faithful replacing a literal nation, adapting things to the new reality of himself as the sacrifice for our sins, to his desire to save us all, and to account for our human imperfects, but basically retaining the same general outline? Or did he intend to throw out the old system nearly completely and replace it with a nearly completely new one, because people just couldn't handle the old system, with the old system serving as an example of why we needed the new one? I think the former view would support the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox mindsets, whereas the later would lean more towards the Protestant views. Interestingly, my first thought is that I think reading the Gospels alone might lead us to the believe the former, whereas the epistles would lead us to believe the later. I'm reading looking forward to reading through everything as a complete narrative, though. I think that'll give me a lot better feel for where I stand.

If it isn't the first, then i think we should stop carrying the old testament with us. If the old testament has only a minor predictive meaning then i am carrying around to Bible studies a bunch of dead weight.

I think Christians give way too little weight to the importance of the Torah. i would like to read, or if there isn't one write a book on the Torah in the light of the Gospels.

[karen freeinchristman]

Lonnie, I think this is important for all of us to discuss, so I started a new thread about it:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2296155-the-importance-of-the-torah.html#post19806766

[Velo Princesse]

Hey guys. I got sick and am now way behind! I can't believe we are on day 9. Once I catch back up, I'll be in the threads. :)

Randi

[karen freeinchristman]

Hey guys. I got sick and am now way behind! I can't believe we are on day 9. Once I catch back up, I'll be in the threads. :)

Randi
I'm behind, too, due to over-busy-ness. But I've missed your posts, Duchess! :)

[Fish and Bread]

Hey guys. I got sick and am now way behind! I can't believe we are on day 9. Once I catch back up, I'll be in the threads. :)

Randi

I'm sorry to hear of your illness. I has sick and fell asleep early just one night and since then it's been a continual battle to stay on top of things. I made it to day 8 yesterday, which was in fact day 8, but I didn't finish it, so now I'm slightly behind again. :) But I'm mostly on track. The good news now is that none of us should be so far behind as to make it impossible to catchup in short order, we've just got to keep our noses to the grindstone. ;)

John

[lonnienord]

we are doing a 90 day reading but we only have 88 days worth of readings. Should we scedule two days off as catch up days (maybe thanksgiving and Christmas? or some days evenly placed?) like maybe day 30 and day 60 should be catch up days???

[Fish and Bread]

we are doing a 90 day reading but we only have 88 days worth of readings. Should we scedule two days off as catch up days (maybe thanksgiving and Christmas? or some days evenly placed?) like maybe day 30 and day 60 should be catch up days???

I was thinking not scheduling the catchup days would be better, so that if anyone happens to fall behind during one of the last few days of the study, they have two extra days at the end to catch up and still meet their goal of finishing in 90 days. I'd feel bad if we scheduled it so we ended 90 days after we started and someone had an emergency on the last day or second to last day and then didn't meet their goal because no catchup time was available. So, this way, everyone who can stay on pace will finish in 88 days, but folks who fall behind at the last minute still have a chance to do it in 90 days even if they don't finish with the people who stay on track. :)

Besides, am I the only one who generally has nothing to do on holiday evenings? Granted, the days are jammed packed but by Thanksgiving night or Christmas night, the family party has ended, cleanup is done, the people one is staying with generally go to bed early, everything is closed, and no one is on the Internet because it's a holiday. I think on Thanksgiving night, I'll actually appreciate being able to read the bible instead of twiddling my thumbs! :) Plus, I won't be able to visit my family on Thanksgiving, so I'll be doubly bored (Though I will get the opportunity to make turkey, stuffing, and, most importantly, sauerkraut for myself and the world famous Lel, and introduce her to all the important Thanksgiving traditions -- Listening to "Alice's Restaurant" on the radio, football, etc. :)). Christmas night this year, I actually have something to do, though! The Ravens are playing, and since I am tentatively set to return east to visit family, I'll hopefully be in attendence at that very game. :) But I'll find time to do reading, since I won't be doing the cooking for Christmas. :)

John

[lonnienord]

excellent points John!! that is why GOD chose you to lead this study and not me.

We have such a wise awesome GOD. I so love basking in HIS presence

:liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy:
:liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :bow: GOD:liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy:
:liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy: :liturgy:

[Fish and Bread]

excellent points John!!

Thanks. :)

John

[Velo Princesse]

Okay, I fell a bit behind, but I"m caught up now! These are my questions to cover the last 4 days worth of reading. If anything has already been covered, forgive me. I'm typing this before I read the thread.

***
Exodus 16:18- commentary on how we should treat our Priests and other God-appointed officials?

***
Ex 20:1 - 23:19 - God didn't leave much room for confusion. I wonder if that is why he was so tough w/ his punishments... because they didn't have to guess at anything???

***
40 Dyas & 40 Nights seems to be a running theme throughout the Bible. How does it translate into our present day church??

***
Aaron still became a priest even though he made the golden calf. Talk about forgiving, huh? Anyway, it got me thinking about my "golden calf"... which is TV... I would throw it in the fire, but my husband might kill me!!! LOL

***
39:22- Is this the model for our Priests collars?

***
Why did Jews stop sacrificing animals? It is clearly important to God. I know Christians stopped because of Jesus, but since Jews don't recognize him as the Messiah, shouldn't they believe themselves under the law and make sacrifices to God?

***

Literalists explain:

11:6- rabbits chewing cud
11:19- bats as birds
11:20- 4 legged insects

I know those are tired questions, but they are valid, I believe...

***
Why is a woman unclean twice as long after giving birth to a daughter than to a son?



I'm caught up!!! Now, I have to get caught up in the comments on this thread.

Randi

[Velo Princesse]

I am now a day behind!:eek: I am finding it hard to keep up, what with having to read all of the other CF posts as well, which takes a long time!

I have been forsaking the other threads for the 90 days threads... :sigh:


I think the laws God gave to Moses after the 10 commandments are really interesting. They are so detailed! Are Jewish people still held accountable to these?

I would think so. I have the same question about animal sacrifices... it seems like they should still be accountable for those also. Or, maybe not actually be accountable in the eyes of God, but atleast think they are.

Randi

[Velo Princesse]

Why would Jewish people be held accountable to the laws and not Christians?

We aren't because of Christ, right? Because we are under grace now, and not law. I think that technically Jews aren't held accountable to the law anymore because they are under grace also, but since they deny Jesus they should believe they are under law and therefore still maintain the law.

Randi

PS- I realize that the last 3 posts of mine have said something about that, but it's cause I'm catching up! Sorry. :)

[Fish and Bread]

40 Dyas & 40 Nights seems to be a running theme throughout the Bible. How does it translate into our present day church??

The liturgical season leading up to Easter, known as Lent, is roughly this length of time, and I believe purposely is meant to recall some biblical instances of 40 days and 40 nights -- i.e. rain to begin the flood, Jesus fasting and resisting temptation in the desert, etc. During Lent, there is an increased focus on self-discipline and repentence. Many choose to fast on certain days, give up something they enjoy, or try out a new spiritual devotion of some sort. Also, as in Advent (The season leading up to Christmas), all the green stuff in church like vestments and altar dressings turns purple. :)

Why did Jews stop sacrificing animals? It is clearly important to God. I know Christians stopped because of Jesus, but since Jews don't recognize him as the Messiah, shouldn't they believe themselves under the law and make sacrifices to God?

Maybe we'll find out later in the course of our reading. :) If it's not addressed, I think we'll have to ask some Jewish folks, because I have no idea. :)

John

[Velo Princesse]

Well, whether God still holds them accountable or not is a very controversial subject. One of the three main divisions of Judiasm (At least in the United States), does indeed hold to the laws of both the written and the oral torah (i.e. the bible and tradition) to the letter. They even have their own "catechism" (ala the Roman Catholic Church) of sorts, known as the Talmud. These Jews are known as the "orthodox Jews" and are often fairly noticeable due to their distinctive patterns of dress.

Orthodox is the only kind of Judaism that makes sense to me. I know a lot of reform and conservative Jews, but it seems like the Torah is very clear about keeping the law to the letter, so I don't get why a Jew wouldn't do it...


She once called me when she was out of bacon and expressed her love and desire for bacon so strongly that if I hadn't known better I would have almost thought bacon was a euphamism for a man.

This is the way I feel about cheesecake.

I had two Jewish great-grandparents, actually, thought I never had a chance to meet them. I almost wish I had. Judiasm is fascinating to me.

My mothers side of the family is Jewish. Unfortunately I don't know any of them and my grandmother died when I was young. I agree that Judaism is very interesting.

Randi

[Velo Princesse]

I have to stop 1/2 down page 6 for now... going to dinner w/ Daddy. When I get back, I'll finish up.....

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

Orthodox is the only kind of Judaism that makes sense to me. I know a lot of reform and conservative Jews, but it seems like the Torah is very clear about keeping the law to the letter, so I don't get why a Jew wouldn't do it...

I don't understand either. Since I'm not a Jew, though, I try my best not to express that too loudly. I figure they know more about how to follow their own tradition than a mere goy like myself does. ;)

John

[lonnienord]

We aren't because of Christ, right? Because we are under grace now, and not law. I think that technically Jews aren't held accountable to the law anymore because they are under grace also, but since they deny Jesus they should believe they are under law and therefore still maintain the law.

Randi

PS- I realize that the last 3 posts of mine have said something about that, but it's cause I'm catching up! Sorry. :)i don't think JESUS ever said we are not accountable to the law because we are under grace. Where did HE say that? Read Matthew 5. Seems to me that he considers us to still be under the law. Also HE said that if we love HIM we must keep HIS commandments.

i recently heard something along these lines: We are free from the law cause we are totally in love with JESUS and because we love HIM so completely we do everything we can to please HIM. it pleases HIM when we obey the laws HE gave us. and so we do so, joyfully, not because we have to but because we want to!!

[Fish and Bread]

i don't think JESUS ever said we are not accountable to the law because we are under grace. Where did HE say that? Read Matthew 5. Seems to me that he considers us to still be under the law. Also HE said that if we love HIM we must keep HIS commandments.

i recently heard something along these lines: We are free from the law cause we are totally in love with JESUS and because we love HIM so completely we do everything we can to please HIM. it pleases HIM when we obey the laws HE gave us. and so we do so, joyfully, not because we have to but because we want to!!

Lonnie, biblical exegenesis aside, how do you account for the fact that than what you believe on this issue is different what 99% of the saints have believed historically? No church historically after Peter's revelation and the findings of the Jerusalem Council has taught that Christians have to keep kosher and so forth. The united Christian Church prior to the Great Schism and almost all modern faith conditions including Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, the Baptists, non-denominationals, etc. reject the notion that Christians need to keep kosher. Heck, even fringe groups like the LDS Church and the Seventh Day Adventists don't keep kosher. Even the Messianic Jews reject keeping kosher and such as a strict requirement for all Christians, if I recall correctly.

If following the Torah to the letter is a requirement, then Christians throughout history have been dead wrong in their understanding, an understanding that would be very important to salvation. In essence, the gates of hell would have prevailed against the church. Since Jesus guaranteed us that wouldn't happen, I just don't think there's a good argument for making keeping kosher a requirement. Am I wrong?

John

[higgs2]

Lonnie, biblical exegenesis aside, how do you account for the fact that than what you believe on this issue is different what 99% of the saints have believed historically? No church historically after Peter's revelation and the findings of the Jerusalem Council has taught that Christians have to keep kosher and so forth. The united Christian Church prior to the Great Schism and almost all modern faith conditions including Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, the Baptists, non-denominationals, etc. reject the notion that Christians need to keep kosher. Heck, even fringe groups like the LDS Church and the Seventh Day Adventists don't keep kosher. Even the Messianic Jews reject keeping kosher and such as a strict requirement for all Christians, if I recall correctly.

If following the Torah to the letter is a requirement, then Christians throughout history have been dead wrong in their understanding, an understanding that would be very important to salvation. In essence, the gates of hell would have prevailed against the church. Since Jesus guaranteed us that wouldn't happen, I just don't think there's a good argument for making keeping kosher a requirement. Am I wrong?

John

And the sacrifices -- it seems that if we're required to keep the dietary laws we'd have to do these too? Why have the sacrifices been abandoned?

[Fish and Bread]

And the sacrifices -- it seems that if we're required to keep the dietary laws we'd have to do these too? Why have the sacrifices been abandoned?

The view of the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and some Anglicans is that the mass itself is primarily a sacrifice. Instead of killing animals on an altar, we unite ourselves to the sacrifice of Jesus of the cross and represent the body and blood of Christ as our sacrificial lamb everytime we have a Eucharist. So, in essence, in the view of some, our masses today are the Christian version of what is outlined in the Book of Leviticus, with the body of Christ in place of the body of a lamb. This is why, the thinking goes, that Jesus said it is necessary to eat his body and drink his blood to live eternally.

The other popular Christian view, which Protestants and many Anglicans believe in, is that Jesus dying on the cross was the one sacrifice needed for all time and that we don't need to represent it, but simply embrace it. Under this method of thinking, the Eucharist can remain sacramentally Christ's body and blood, but is no longer a sacrifice, but rather a celebration -- or it can just be symbolic only, depending on which denomination one is speaking of. For Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, this view has been included in their theology, but has been a secondary consideration, generally speaking.

Historically, this difference is why the Roman Catholics used to use an altar connected to a wall on one side and Protestants have used a table. The Roman Catholics believed that they were offering a sacrifice to God (Who symbolically was in the back of the church) first and foremost, whereas the Protestants believed that they were having a celebratory meal. This is why some traditionalists Roman Catholics were so upset at the Vatican II reforms that moved the altar out and make it more like a table (Recent archeological finds show that altars were at least in some cases in the center of a room or at least out from the wall in the ancient church, though, which is part of the reasoning the Vatican II folks used in changing it, I think).

Pope Benedict XVI recently was said to have stepped in at a bishop's synod while this stuff was being debated and said that in his view the Eucharist is both a sacrifice and a celebratory meal, apparently in response to a vigorous debate amongst the bishops present.

John

[lonnienord]

Seventh-day Adventists keep kosher as written in the Torah. They don't follow all the extra rules Orthodox jews do but they don't eat pork or sea food or any other foods listed as unclean in the Torah.

but weather anyone else does it or not what i am trying to understand what GOD wants and why we carry around the old testament if it is no longer binding.

[Velo Princesse]

Seventh-day Adventists keep kosher as written in the Torah. They don't follow all the extra rules Orthodox jews do but they don't eat pork or sea food or any other foods listed as unclean in the Torah.

but weather anyone else does it or not what i am trying to understand what GOD wants and why we carry around the old testament if it is no longer binding.

The OT is important because it is the history of God. But Jesus fulfilled the law, so we don't have to worry about all the rules and stuff.... that doesn't mean we can't get anything of value out of the word of God.

Randi

[Lel]

/me mutters something about being more interested in writing a novel, caring less about the Bible as the study goes along, and having 19 chapters to catch up on.

See y'all when I get a chance to catch up and stuff! I'm going to push the novel a bit this weekend so that hopefully I can start catching up!

[DarthDigger]

* Lel mutters something about being more interested in writing a novel, caring less about the Bible as the study goes along, and having 19 chapters to catch up on.

See y'all when I get a chance to catch up and stuff! I'm going to push the novel a bit this weekend so that hopefully I can start catching up!

hahahahahahahaha:D :D :D

[lonnienord]

once we start saying: this was only for Israel (which i don't understand - Isreal was GOD's chosen people as are we.) and/or that was only symbolic, then we have the 10 suggestions. We have pick and choose. and in the end we have a wishy washy god with a wishy wasy book which only partially applies to one nation.

I wish you were Hot or Cold but since you are luke warm i spew you out. cf Rev. 3:15,16.

I have only read one comment about any of this applying to us and that is Thou Shalt not kill. and when i had the gall to suggest that included abortion ...

so why did GOD give us the Bible and why did HE include the Torah? o yes i know so we can learn about HIM so what have we learned about him?

[DarthDigger]

next time anyone plans to do this... let me know!

It sounds good fun......

DD

[Fish and Bread]

so why did GOD give us the Bible and why did HE include the Torah? o yes i know so we can learn about HIM so what have we learned about him?

That he loves us and calls us to holyness. :)

John

[Fish and Bread]

next time anyone plans to do this... let me know!

It sounds good fun......

DD

I'm thinking about trying to organize another one for Lent in the spring, but I don't know. It'd probably be good to wait and see how this one turns out first. :) That way, we can see if we really want to do it again, whether we should change the pace, change the format, maybe even read some other spiritual writings, etc. In another month or two, I'll probably post a planning thread and throw some ideas out there.

John

[lonnienord]

That he loves us and calls us to holyness. :)

Johnbut is it us he loves or the israelites? does HE call us to holiness or israel?

[Fish and Bread]

but is it us he loves or the israelites? does HE call us to holiness or israel?

We know that the answer is both because of the New Testament.

John

[lonnienord]

i'm sorry but i have more questions. What is holiness? When HE gives kosher rules wich seem to me to be a call to holiness we go o no those are for the israelites. When HE gives us 10 commandments we take the 4th and say naw HE didn't really want us to keep the 7th day sabbath that was just for israel and after all JESUS rose on the first day so that is a more important day.... do we want to accept HIS call to holiness or do we want to play god and change everyting?

[Fish and Bread]

i'm sorry but i have more questions. What is holiness? When HE gives kosher rules wich seem to me to be a call to holiness we go o no those are for the israelites. When HE gives us 10 commandments we take the 4th and say naw HE didn't really want us to keep the 7th day sabbath that was just for israel and after all JESUS rose on the first day so that is a more important day.... do we want to accept HIS call to holiness or do we want to play god and change everyting?

Jesus' teachings tell us that holyness is an inner state of being. This is reflected by outward works and it's possible that outward works can even lead to more holyness. Ultimately, though, it isn't the action that leads to great holyness, but rather the intent behind it. For example, Jews who kept kosher were not holier simply because they didn't eat pork, they were holier because they abstained from pork because they loved God and wanted to do his will. There is nothing intrinsically bad about eating pork. Roman Catholics who abstain from fish on Fridays are just as holy in God's eyes as Jews who used to abstain from pork, because they have the same intent in their hearts of growing closer to God by following his will.

Also, it isn't you or I who changed everything, it is Christ's Church that did it, based upon the very words of Christ himself and the inspiration of his Holy Spirit. Who are we to question the new terms laid before us in the new convenant (or new deal)? Personally, I think we're better off than the Jews were in the Old Testament. :)

John

[lonnienord]

if what you say is true, John, i think the torah should not be a part of the Bible.
I had a jewish friend who taught me a lot. One of the things we talked about was torah law vs. JESUS law of love. She pointed out that the Torah was much easier to follow. It is easier to obey thou shalt nots etc than to know how to love.

so anyway i really don't understand why we have an Old testament. and i especially don't understant the purpose of having the Torah as a part of our Bible if there is nothing in there that we need for salvation.

[Fish and Bread]

so anyway i really don't understand why we have an Old testament. and i especially don't understant the purpose of having the Torah as a part of our Bible if there is nothing in there that we need for salvation.

It tells us more about who we are and where we came from, as well as important facts about God's personality and his plan. One can not properly understand the New Testament without understaning the old. Jesus highly valued it and quoted it all the time. How can we know what he was talking about unless we read it?

John

[lonnienord]

of course one defination of love is obedience. We could love GOD so much that we obeyed HIS law. And i really believe when he came down and spoke HIS law then wrote it on tablets the make it a part of HIS book (the Bible) it applies to all of HIS children ; not just the children of israel.

[lonnienord]

It tells us more about who we are and where we came from, as well as important facts about God's personality and his plan. One can not properly understand the New Testament without understaning the old. Jesus highly valued it and quoted it all the time. How can we know what he was talking about unless we read it?

Johndoes that mean you accept the Creation story as written (7day creation?) What does it tell us about GOD'S personality? What is HIS plan?

your last point is definately true!!

[Fish and Bread]

For the record, I don't believe in seven day creation. :) It's not meant to be taken literally, folks. :) There is too much scentific evidence that it simply is not literally true. If we believe in absolute truth and we believe that it can be discovered through science, I don't know how we could believe that Genesis 1 was literal.

John

[Fish and Bread]

Anyhow, moving from our Torah debate over the role of the Torah in Christain thought, here are some thoughts on some stuff from days eight and nine....

Leviticus 9:24; We can see how this template laid out in Leviticus was repeated in some respects at Penetocost, symbolizing the beginning of a new priesthood. Essentially, God seems to have been ordaining the Apostles with the same basic acknowledgement as God used when he ordained Aaron and his sons as priests in this passages.

Leviticus 10:12-13; This is part of the role of the Eucharist for us today.

Leviticus 16:26; Origin of the popular term "scapegoat". :)

Leviticus 17:11; We learn that the life of a creature is in it's blood, which adds a whole new meaning to the Eucharist. :)

John

[lonnienord]

For the record, I don't believe in seven day creation. :) It's not meant to be taken literally, folks. :) There is too much scentific evidence that it simply is not literally true. If we believe in absolute truth and we believe that it can be discovered through science, I don't know how we could believe that Genesis 1 was literal.

Johni know good scientists who believe that the earth began exactly as GOD said it did. my understanding of science is that it asks questions and presents possible answers which are called theories there is no absolute scientific truths.

[Fish and Bread]

Some other thoughts on day nine's readings:

Levitcus 21:8; Shows up that special respect is due to priests because they provide us with God's food.

Leviticus 22:10-13; As brothers and sister in Christ, we are his family and can thus share in Christ's sacrificial feast. :)

John

[lonnienord]

-We see here the origin of Jubilee year. Jubilee years are still celebrated by the Vatican, I'm told. Does anyone know if they done every fifteeth year as was the Old Testament practice? Or are they more random? unfortunately it is not every 50 th year but it does happen every 50 years. It is up to the pope to declare the Jubilee year and they do so about every 25 years.

[lonnienord]

In fairness, having caught up with the readings in question, I do begin to see Lonnie's point more clearly. I begin to wonder whether perhaps I was too hasty in terming certain matters a violation of cultural rather than moral law. It's something that I'll need a lot of time to think and discern about.

John

maybe we need to do a Torah study in the light of the New Testament. I wish someone had developed such a study. I guess if we can't find one we will have to develop our own sometime next year (maybe our lenton study)

[lonnienord]

I found today's readings a little bit emotionally draining. Sometimes I struggle with the notion of God as being someone who would tell people they had to gather and stone their friend to death because he collected wood on the Sabbath. The story where the people had no meat to eat, complained to Moses, were promised meat, and then were killed by a plague as they were chewing but before they could swallow; was disturbing also. What's the moral import of stories like that? Can it truly be said that these are *good* things? I'll granted that they seem to teach us to follow comandments and be grateful for what we have, but the method used to teach them, if we can take these stories even semi-literally, seems really, really extreme -- like something Amnesty International would strongly condemn and Saddam Hussein would cheer on. Things like that tend to push me into more liberal interpretations where some of these events are just fables, because it sometimes seems like they'd almost have to be to even be remotely justifiable. What am I missing here? Am I seeing this from the wrong perspective?

I also have trouble reconciling some of these instances of stoning with Jesus in the New Testament telling people not to stone the adulterer. In several passes in the Book of Numbers, the Israelites were pretty clearly ordered by God to stone someone for not following what seem like even less commandments in very specific and direct circumstances, and we can probably assume that since he told the entire tribe to do it in some instance, there were sinful people throwing stones back in the time of Moses! How do we fit that together with Jesus saying what must be without sin to throw a stone? It almost seems as though God is contradicting himself. Can anyone explain it for me?

John

i certainly cannot explain it. A good holy priest once told me: We can't understand GOD. We just must trust that HE is good and loveing; and HE is doing what is best for us.

I think we should do a Torah Study in Deeper fellowship and invite some SDA and Messianic Jews to join us and help us understand ~ after we finish this 90 days!

[lonnienord]

I think this is a perfect example of how we need to look at things in what would be termed as a 'liberal' manner, using quite a lot of reason in our interpretation for what it means for us today. I completely agree with you here, John. I wonder what our early Church fathers made of these bits of scripture?

How can we find out what the early Church fathers thought? I don't think it matters what spin you put on Numbers.

hey i just thought of a spin. Sin is evil!! Sin seperates us from GOD; we should do whatever it takes to get rid of sin (almost typed spin).

[karen freeinchristman]

How can we find out what the early Church fathers thought? I don't think it matters what spin you put on Numbers.

hey i just thought of a spin. Sin is evil!! Sin seperates us from GOD; we should do whatever it takes to get rid of sin (almost typed spin).
:) Yes, but how do we reconcile the stoning with the commandment not to kill?

[Fish and Bread]

:) Yes, but how do we reconcile the stoning with the commandment not to kill?

I'm told the proper translate of the commandment is actually "Thou shalt not murder". "Kill" is an inaccurate translation which has unfortunately slipped into a lot of English-language bibles and into the popular culture. In the Old Testament, specific provisions are made for capital punishment and war, which are killing, but apparently not murder.

I have to be honest and say that some of this OId Testament really goes against my sensibilities. On the other hand, as a Christian, I have to wonder if I'm unintentionally putting my own sensibilities before the sensibilities of God on some of these issues. It's notable that Jesus seems fairly anti-war, even in self-defense, but the Father isn't, and encourages the Israelites to actually go on the offensive in the Old Testament. But we know that theologically the Father and Son, being of the same substance, are also one in all that they do. Maybe war is only justified when God orders us to go to war? Is that what we're supposed to get out of all this?

Capital punishment is a bit of a different story, because the situation has changed. We can incarcerate people nowadays and keep society safe without killing criminals. Pope John-Paul II I think said as much prior to going out to the great beyond.

John

[Velo Princesse]

I think we should do a Torah Study in Deeper fellowship and invite some SDA and Messianic Jews to join us and help us understand ~ after we finish this 90 days!

I was thinking that next time we do this we should all use the Tanakh instead of the OT so that we can get the translation that Jews actually use.

:)

Randi

[Velo Princesse]

Hello everyone.

I've been basically paralyzed for about a week which is why I've barely been on CF. It's also why I'm behind... again.

I just got done w/ day 10 and I only had one thought, which is sort of a carry over from previous readings.

Numbers 5:19. This is the part where they are talking about what to do w/ your wife if you think she cheated. What I noticed, which I've noticed before, is that God seems very concerned w/ extra-marital sex but not pre-marital sex. He specifically says something in the above verse about if she has been with someone else since s