Bible in 90 Days: Catchup, Overflow, Fellowship, Etc.

[lonnienord]

Good question.

:confused:

Background information?more likely to teach us how to live and how to be holy wait till ge get to Psalm 119

[Fish and Bread]

Catholics think it is. The Bible was given to us by GOD through Holy Mother Church.

What does the Holy Mother Church have to say about whether the culture laws of the Torah is binding on Christians, Lonnie? Let's not have it both ways here. :) If you're going to say denying the authority of the Church by having a 66-book canon instead of a 72-book canon is tanamount to disobeying God, then you have to agree that denying the Church's teaching that following the Torah laws is unnecessary is disobeying God, too, in order to be consistant. :)

John

[higgs2]

What does the Holy Mother Church have to say about whether the culture laws of the Torah is binding on Christians, Lonnie? Let's not have it both ways here. :-) If you're going to say denying the authority of the Church by having a 66-book canon instead of a 72-book canon is tanamount to disobeying God, then you have to agree to the Church's teaching on the Torah, too, in order to be consistant. :)

John
John, these were my thoughts exactly. WHat does the Holy Mother Church say about keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day?

[lonnienord]

What does the Holy Mother Church have to say about whether the culture laws of the Torah is binding on Christians, Lonnie? Let's not have it both ways here. :) If you're going to say denying the authority of the Church by having a 66-book canon instead of a 72-book canon is tanamount to disobeying God, then you have to agree that denying the Church's teaching on the Torah is disobeying God, too, in order to be consistant. :)

Johni never claimed to be consistant; in fact i admitted to being a cafeteria catholic.

[Fish and Bread]

i never claimed to be consistant; in fact i admitted to being a cafeteria catholic.

Okay. Fair enough. Why invoke the authority of "the Holy Mother Church" when it comes to determining biblical canon when you ignore it on more important matters, though? What's your criteria for determining which things you must follow the Church on simply because they say so and which ones you get to discern on your own?

John

[lonnienord]

John, these were my thoughts exactly. WHat does the Holy Mother Church say about keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day?Holy Mother Church thinks she has the right to change the words GOD spoke and wrote. Where do i come down on this issue ~~ intelligecally i like the clear statement GOD gave us in the Torah. and on mount sini. In practice; i am a Catholic.

I have trouble with the torah vs. church issue ~ in the end i hope that when GOD gave the keys to Peter HE actually meant that the church has the right to change the Sabbath the way she did. (I also base my action on JESUS ignoring the Sabbath question and Paul saying that it doesn't matter ~ but then i also go to Mass both Saturday morning and Sat. Evening. ~ yup i'm confused and i try to just hide in the arms of JESUS.

[lonnienord]

Okay. Fair enough. Why invoke the authority of "the Holy Mother Church" when it comes to determining biblical canon when you ignore it on more important matters, though? What's your criteria for determining which things you must follow the Church on simply because they say so and which ones you get to discern on your own?

JohnI wish you wouldn't ask such good hard questions!! I think the cannon of the Bible is extremely important. So many Christians base their whole life on the book ~ doesn't that make it really important that they have the book GOD wants them to have?? and how can we know what books belong in the bible if we don't trust Holy Mother Church.'

so if we trust Holy Mother Church there why don't i just accept Her teaching about the Sabbath (did i ever tell you that my parents are Seventh-day Adventists and they i went to SDA schools grade 1 through high school) i don't know it is just hard for me to change.

[Fish and Bread]

Lonnie, this is off-topic, but I am wondering if you know what a Novena is. I saw it referenced on Father Groschel's program the other day and I was curious! :) I thought you might know, since you like daily mass and it seems to have something to do with that. :)

John

[lonnienord]

Lonnie, this is off-topic, but I am wondering if you know what a Novena is. I saw it referenced on Father Groschel's program the other day and I was curious! :) I thought you might know, since you like daily mass and it seems to have something to do with that. :)

JohnA novena is 9 days of praying for a certain thing. The first Novena was the 9 days between Asention Thursday and Pentecost. The deciples were in the upper room praying and after praying for those 9 days the Holy Spirit came on the moring of the 10th day before they said their morning prayer.

One could do a novena of masses but one can do a novena without going to mass daily.

[Fish and Bread]

A novena is 9 days of praying for a certain thing. The first Novena was the 9 days between Asention Thursday and Pentecost. The deciples were in the upper room praying and after praying for those 9 days the Holy Spirit came on the moring of the 10th day before they said their morning prayer.

One could do a novena of masses but one can do a novena without going to mass daily.

Cool. Thanks! :)

John

[Lel]

Yeah, well, now I'm 34 days behind! :P

[Lel]

:wave:

[Lel]

Maybe instead of agreeing to disagree, you can agree to leave it open for discussion. The bible study isn't over yet! :)

Yes, but...

The preconceptions which we each bring into our study of the bible color what we will get out of it. If we think it is best to refrain from premarital sex, the bible will forbid it. If we wish to simply live and let live and also permit others so to do, the bible will permit such things as premarital sex.

[Lel]

Catholics think it is. The Bible was given to us by GOD through Holy Mother Church.

GOD told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate the fruit. Satan told them they wouldn't and in fact if they ate they would be as smart as GOD. We all think we can do what we want with HIS holy word cause after all we are at least as smart as HE is.

What should we do, turn our brains off?

[Velo Princesse]

Yeah, well, now I'm 34 days behind! :P

Lel's Bible is actually pouring out of her brain at this point! LOL

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

The preconceptions which we each bring into our study of the bible color what we will get out of it. If we think it is best to refrain from premarital sex, the bible will forbid it. If we wish to simply live and let live and also permit others so to do, the bible will permit such things as premarital sex.

That's got to be the best argument for a Pope that I've ever heard. :)

John

[Fish and Bread]

Some thoughts from the tailend of Day 13's readings (yesterday):

- D4 25-31; This is really fascinating, like a book of future history. Just think of the Jews who were Hellanized to the point where Caeser was a god and so forth, and then the way they were scattered when the temple was destroyed! It seems as though there is a faithful remanent and many will regain their faith in the last days, though, if I am reading this prophecy correctly.

- Does the beginning of the fifth book of the Torah read like a book version of "Last time on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" type of things that television shows have at the beginning sometimes to anyone else? Or is it just me? :) Maybe some ideas really are eternal! ;)

Some thoughts on the beginning of today's readings shall be posted in the other thread shortly. :)

John

[Lel]

That's got to be the best argument for a Pope that I've ever heard. :)

John

Oh, believe me, I have more great arguments for papal authority. I shall bring them forth... :holy:

[lonnienord]

What should we do, turn our brains off?absolutely not!! we should turn our brains, along with our sexuality along with our will along with our total being to GOD!! Asking HIM to use them for the building up of HIS kingdom on earth!!

[RedneckAnglican]

sorry I haven't been able to read much or be around lately...we are still in San Antoino after our Rita inspired trip...I'm going to try to start today with the Bible I have...I wasn't able to purchase the 90 day one as we have had about 4 addresses in the past 2 monthes and none of the Christian Book stores around here have to bible need...could someone tell me which reading we're on?...

[LiberatedChick]

sorry I haven't been able to read much or be around lately...we are still in San Antoino after our Rita inspired trip...I'm going to try to start today with the Bible I have...I wasn't able to purchase the 90 day one as we have had about 4 addresses in the past 2 monthes and none of the Christian Book stores around here have to bible need...could someone tell me which reading we're on?...

We're on Day 15 now. The reading plan can be found in the first page of this thread...in post 8.

[Fish and Bread]

sorry I haven't been able to read much or be around lately...we are still in San Antoino after our Rita inspired trip...I'm going to try to start today with the Bible I have...I wasn't able to purchase the 90 day one as we have had about 4 addresses in the past 2 monthes and none of the Christian Book stores around here have to bible need...could someone tell me which reading we're on?...

Today's readings are: Dt 23:12-Dt 34:12 . So, basically, at the end of the day today, we'll be done with the Torah (The first five books of the bible). It's a lot of catchup to do, but I think it's still very achieveable if you have some time to put into it. :) I'm glad to hear you're still planning to try to participate!

John

[Velo Princesse]

{trying to resist the temptation to jump ahead...}

I was thinking of reading todays reading and the first reading I missed and then doing that again everyday until I didn't miss any.... Bad idea????

[Fish and Bread]

{trying to resist the temptation to jump ahead...}

I was thinking of reading todays reading and the first reading I missed and then doing that again everyday until I didn't miss any.... Bad idea????

The "Bible in 90 Days" thing recommends against doing that in the forward. It says that the people who just try to catch up are the most successful in completing the entire bible and that the folks who skip ahead and try to go back usually don't really wind up going back over the long haul. I think part of it is that catching up and being able to participate fully in the "current" discussions gives us incentive to put more time into it. :) Also, for me, part of the fun of this is that I'll be able to say that I read the whole bible cover to cover in order when I'm done. :) Of course, it's up to you, though! :)

John

[Fish and Bread]

More catchup:

D21:6-9; This is how it happened with Christ, with Pontius Pilate serving as the elder. I never realized the significance of him washing his hands aside from the obvious until now. It was the fulfillment of a prophecy of sorts.

John

[Fish and Bread]

With the beginning of Joshua, we move out of the Torah. Does anyone recall what this next set of books is titled as collectively (i.e. Wisdom book, Prophetic, etc.)?

John

[Velo Princesse]

The "Bible in 90 Days" thing recommends against doing that in the forward. It says that the people who just try to catch up are the most successful in completing the entire bible and that the folks who skip ahead and try to go back usually don't really wind up going back over the long haul. I think part of it is that catching up and being able to participate fully in the "current" discussions gives us incentive to put more time into it. :) Also, for me, part of the fun of this is that I'll be able to say that I read the whole bible cover to cover in order when I'm done. :) Of course, it's up to you, though! :)

John

[annoying high pitched voice]Hi I'm John and I read the introduction to the book. I make a bunch of sense... {shakes head 'no'} but you don't have to listen to me if you don't want...[/annoying high pitched voice]

Yeah, thanks smarty pants.... I know your right though. Fine! I'll just catch up.... {Randi walks away grumbling}

:)

Randi

[lonnienord]

With the beginning of Joshua, we move out of the Torah. Does anyone recall what this next set of books is titled as collectively (i.e. Wisdom book, Prophetic, etc.)?

JohnThe historical books Joshua - Esther (actually through Macabees) As a person who isn't much into history these will be a bit rough for me. But i do like to see how GOD has worked through history. And when we get done with these we will get the Wisdom books which i love!!

[Fish and Bread]

[annoying high pitched voice]

The funny part is that my voice is actually very deep. :) It used to Barry Whiteesque before I had my tonsils removed. Now it's slightly higher, but still very low. I can remember being as young as 14-15 and answering the phone at my parents home, having people just assume I was my father, and start talking at me before I could get a chance to correct them. :) My voice is actually still a bit deeper than his is. :)

John

[Velo Princesse]

I'm really enjoying talking to you guys about the scriptures and I do want to eventually read the entire Bible in 90 days, but I don't think that doing it right now is very good for me.

I don't have a strong foundation in the Bible, since I've never read it before, and I'm not terribly familiar w/ the NT. What is happening is that I'm putting all of my Bible-reading time into the Bible in 90 Days and I'm not retaining anything... plus Jesus's words are still so far off. I think that next time you guys do this I'll be ready, but this time, it's just too much.

I found a plan to read the NT and Psalms & Proverbs in 1 year. I'm going to do that, only double up on the reading so I can do it in 6 months. After that, I found a plan to do an 'overview' of the Bible, so I guess that will hit on the main points and leave out some of the more complicated stuff.

Please watch for my threads because I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions about things. I just think it's more important that I understand Jesus and his teachings before I start trying to race to the finish.

:)

Randi

[lonnienord]

Hi Randi, You have made a good decision. remember to lace your reading with prayer!!

[Fish and Bread]

I'm really enjoying talking to you guys about the scriptures and I do want to eventually read the entire Bible in 90 days, but I don't think that doing it right now is very good for me.

I don't have a strong foundation in the Bible, since I've never read it before, and I'm not terribly familiar w/ the NT. What is happening is that I'm putting all of my Bible-reading time into the Bible in 90 Days and I'm not retaining anything... plus Jesus's words are still so far off. I think that next time you guys do this I'll be ready, but this time, it's just too much.

I found a plan to read the NT and Psalms & Proverbs in 1 year. I'm going to do that, only double up on the reading so I can do it in 6 months. After that, I found a plan to do an 'overview' of the Bible, so I guess that will hit on the main points and leave out some of the more complicated stuff.

Please watch for my threads because I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions about things. I just think it's more important that I understand Jesus and his teachings before I start trying to race to the finish.

:)

Randi

Well, few if any fully understand Jesus and his teachings -- I know I don't! :) I understand where you're coming from, though. When I first came back to church, I don't think I could have read the bible this intensively chronoligically. I'm not even sure it would have been good for me, because a lot of the Old Testament is best understood in the light of the New Testament. Approaching it a couple years later, though, I find this a great opportunity. It's really fascinating to finally see some of the stuff Jesus was quoting and referring to and God's relationship with humankind through the ages. :)

We'll miss your comments, but I guess you've got to do what you've got to do! I hope maybe you'll join us for another study down the road. :)

John

[Velo Princesse]

I was even thinking of popping in sometimes... I mean, I'd hate to miss out on the next pre-marital sex debate. ;) I'll just get into some conversations by reading the verse you are talking about specifically.... And, I'm making a new thread for my readings so that you guys can still help me out. :)

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

Some more comments :):

D30:11-15; I think this lays out the best argument for sola scriptura (scripture alone) thus far in our reading.

D32:15b; This is a really incredible prophecy, because after the Israelite authorities rejected their Savior, Jerusalemn fell within about 40 years.

D34:9; This is a good argument for Papal/apostolic succession with laying on of hands to transfer authority from generation to generation, etc.

John

[lonnienord]

D30:11-15; I think this lays out the best argument for sola scriptura (scripture alone) thus far in our reading.:scratch:


:scratch: 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; i totally don't see how this supports sola scriptura. Maybe if one accepted the Torah as GOD's word and lived by the laws (which no one seems willing to do)

Sola scriptura seems so flawed to me. Where do we get the scriptures? From the traditions of the Church. It is possible to except the Torah from that cause it was/is the Jewish scripture - but it seems to me that to say Torah alone is to bind oneself to the laws.

[Fish and Bread]

:scratch: i totally don't see how this supports sola scriptura.

One potential reading of the passage is that the word of God is near to the believer and that no one need go to extreme lengths to tell the believer if the believer prayers and studies about it -- i.e. not a bishop, a Pope, or whatever. Obviously, there are other, probably better, ways to read the passage, but fair is fair, I keep pointing out all the stuff that might justify a Pope and/or bishops, I should also point out the stuff that might justify the Protestant view. :)

Maybe if one accepted the Torah as GOD's word and lived by the laws (which no one seems willing to do)

No one seems willing to do it, becazuse Jesus told us we didn't have to and St. Paul affirmed that we didn't have to. That's all in the scripture. Plus, 2,000 years of church tradition affirms that we don't have to on top of that. After Acts 15 when the Church met in council and decided the isssue, people have fallen into line.

Sola scriptura seems so flawed to me. Where do we get the scriptures? From the traditions of the Church.

Can a fallible group of people create an infallible document through the power of the Holy Spirit? I think it's possible with God. I'm not a sola scriptura person, but I understand where they're coming from.

John

[Velo Princesse]

D32:15b; This is a really incredible prophecy, because after the Israelite authorities rejected their Savior, Jerusalemn fell within about 40 years.

When I read that chapter and specifically that verse I see a description of something that has already happened. What makes it a prophecy? I don't see prophecy. This was one of the things that sort of lead me away from the church to begin with... They call verses prophecy that aren't prophecy... or atleast don't appear to be. Almost like they found verses that they think could fit and declared them prophecy even when that wasn't the original intent of the writer.

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

When I read that chapter and specifically that verse I see a description of something that has already happened. What makes it a prophecy? I don't see prophecy. This was one of the things that sort of lead me away from the church to begin with... They call verses prophecy that aren't prophecy... or atleast don't appear to be. Almost like they found verses that they think could fit and declared them prophecy even when that wasn't the original intent of the writer.

As a Christian, you aren't required to believe that any of these passages are prophetic. So, if you don't think it says anything about the life of Jesus, that's certainly not a problem for me, and I very much doubt it's a problem for God. :) Actually, rereading the passage, you may well be right.

....Can I still say it's forshadowing future events even if it's not a prophecy, though? ;) After all, even if the author had no concious intent, the Holy Spirit may have inspired him to phrase things in a certain way. :)

"He abandoned the God who made him
and rejected the Rock his Savior."

John

[Velo Princesse]

....Can I still say it's forshadowing future events even if it's not a prophecy, though? ;) After all, even if the author had no concious intent, the Holy Spirit may have inspired him to phrase things in a certain way. :)

"He abandoned the God who made him
and rejected the Rock his Savior."

John

Forshadowing seems to be everywhere in the OT. In fact, that is the most interesting part of it IMHO... How often you can find Jesus. Let's assume for a second that Moses was just a myth and that none of that ever happened... the story is still amazing based entirely on how much foreshadowing there is, even when using a broad brush instead of disecting each individual verse.

Prophecy, on the other hand, is a very strong word that I think gets used much too often. In fact, one of the chapters (that you guys haven't gotten to yet) supposedly is a prophecy of Judas selling Jesus and for how much, but the chapter reads like a legal document describing a business transaction... complete with the full names of who witnessed the transaction. I think that "prophecy" gets thrown around a bit too liberally, much like "love", "hate", "need", ect...

Randi

[lonnienord]

Me: Maybe if one accepted the Torah as GOD's word and lived by the laws (which no one seems willing to do)http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif


John: No one seems willing to do it, becazuse Jesus told us we didn't have to

Me: Matthew 5:17-19

[Velo Princesse]

Me: Maybe if one accepted the Torah as GOD's word and lived by the laws (which no one seems willing to do)http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif


John: No one seems willing to do it, becazuse Jesus told us we didn't have to

Me: Matthew 5:17-1917 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

lonnie- Jesus free's us from the sabbath laws (Mark 2:27-28), the clean/unclean laws (remember the Good Samaritan?), the food laws (Mark 7:19), and of course the sacrifice laws (His crucifixion)... so, what's left? There are sex laws, but we are far stricter in that area today than they were then, and there are the feast days, which you can feel free to celibrate but they were given to the Jews and we are not Jews. Jesus never demanded that the Gentiles become Jews and start doing the things the Jews did and we are amongst the Gentiles. I say that, of course, w/out the faintest idea of if your Jewish by heritage.

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

Me: Maybe if one accepted the Torah as GOD's word and lived by the laws (which no one seems willing to do)http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif


John: No one seems willing to do it, becazuse Jesus told us we didn't have to

Me: Matthew 5:17-1917 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

On the cross, Jesus says as "It is finished [possibly meaning completed or fulfilled]" as he heaves his last breath. So, when he says "till all be fulfilled" and "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil", that is probably another way of saying "Until the new convenant is complete in my blood and the law is fulfilled in that way". Otherwise, why say he has come to fulfill? If he came and didn't fulfill, then he failed. And if he fulfilled, then the law has passed.

John

[Velo Princesse]

On the cross, Jesus says as "It is finished [possibly meaning completed or fulfilled]" as he heaves his last breath. So, when he says "till all be fulfilled", that is probably another way of saying "Until the new convenant is complete in my blood and the law is fulfilled in that way".

John

:thumbsup:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Fish and Bread again.

[lonnienord]

Matthew 5:19my frustration with GOD is that HE allows us to have completely different understanding of what HE said.

in the end i am so glad that Christianity is not a religion of the book it is a religion of a relationship

i need this discussion to remind me that there is really only one important thing and that is my relationship with my LORD and MASTER JESUS!! and that i need to work on that relationship and allow others to work out their relationship with HIM and the best i can do is pray. and so i am praying for you and asking for your prayers for me.

if it matters i'm not blood jewish but my BROTHER is a Jewish Carpenter.

[Velo Princesse]

my frustration with GOD is that HE allows us to have completely different understanding of what HE said.

That frustration is part of the reason that I think God meant for the Bible to be a guidline to us and not hard and fast rules. We should use it to try and understand him, but not as step by step instructions...

One of the things that this got me thinking about is the conversation we had a while back about why we carry around the OT if it doesn't matter. I got a sort of lightbulb over the head moment when I realized it: The OT is the history of the church, the NT is the church. Of course it is always valuable to study history in order to know where we come from and that is why the OT is an important thing, but the OT doesn't tell us how to be Christians, it tells Jews how to be Jews. Those are my thoughts on the subject anyhow.

By the way, guys, thanks for letting me take part in the conversation even though I'm not doing the study w/ you... and if you want me to leave at any point, it's okay, just let me know... But I will make you feel bad about it because I am Jewish... guilt is what I know. ^_^

Randi

[Naomi4Christ]

That frustration is part of the reason that I think God meant for the Bible to be a guidline to us and not hard and fast rules. We should use it to try and understand him, but not as step by step instructions...



Yes - you have to interpret the bible in light of what you know about God, especially when you come across conflicting information.

You also have to read the bible in the power of the holy spirit - pray about it before you start and ask God to speak to you through his word - then he will show you what parts to read for your situation.

[Fish and Bread]

I can't believe they killed off Balaam. He was my favorite character! Well, next to his talking donkey. ;) But I doubt the donkey survived either... :( Poor donkey. :(

John

[lonnienord]

Yes - you have to interpret the bible in light of what you know about God, especially when you come across conflicting information.

You also have to read the bible in the power of the holy spirit - pray about it before you start and ask God to speak to you through his word - then he will show you what parts to read for your situation.but... but... what do we know about GOD except for what HE told us through the Bible???

but to quote myself Christianity is not a religion of a book it is all about a Relationship. So i agree with the above quote; all of our study/reading of scripture needs to be done prayerfully!! Talk with GOD about what you are reading and ask HIM to guide you in all understanding.

[Naomi4Christ]

but... but... what do we know about GOD except for what HE told us through the Bible???


He has revealed himself to us mainly through the bible, but also through creation (including our in-built common sense), and also through the work of the Holy Spirit.

[Lel]

Okay, I'm hopelessly behind, but I'm reading Joshua and how the Lord keeps commanding people to kill whole cities and burn them all. It drives me crazy how the Lord is just like a big warrior who likes to kill thousands of people. I know they are purging sin or what not, but the death and bloodshed that the Lord encourages is really starting to sicken me.

[lonnienord]

GOD is good
GOD is love

sin is evil (=live spelled backwards)
sin hurts people
getting rid of sin is good
getting rid of sin is loving good people

[Lel]

Yeah, well, there's other ways to get rid of sin besides killing people...I'd rather see the animals die even than the people.

[lonnienord]

I understand where you are coming from Lel. In the end for me it is a matter of trust and love.
I love GOD
HE has done so many good things for me
So I trust that HE knows what HE is doing.

[Lel]

I recognize that it is about faith. I just wonder if I should have faith or still evaluate God on the merits by which I would evaluate even humans. If a human performed these actions, I would say they were a monster to the greatest degree.

[SirTimothy]

I've been not too well the past week or so, and am so far behind it's not funny. When I'm feeling up to tacking it, I'll catch up--it's only about an hours reading behind, but it's still a lot!

Timothy

[Inside Edge]

I know they are purging sin or what not, but the death and bloodshed that the Lord encourages is really starting to sicken me.
Is He even purging sin? The Israelites disobey God during the sacking [of Jericho] and God hands their a**es to the Amorites (or whatever the next city was). So the Isrealites stone the offenders to death, and God puts them back on course and guides them to sack the next city.

So sin doesn't get purged. And furthermore, I didn't pick up on any of the pretext that was in the story of, say, Sodom and Gamorrah. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that these cities were wholly and completely sinful.

It's like they just happened to be in the land God said he'd hand over to the Israelites, so what else is He to do?

I find myself turning to my enyclopedic bible for a slightly more fuller explanation of the writings. In which I find that there's no historical or archeological evidence for the city of Jericho as described in Joshua. It also mentions that several of the seiges and "battles" are described similar to liturgies, rituals, etc. So it appears these may not be literal accounts, and we're not meant to try and read literal lessons from them.

[lonnienord]

literal or not what are the lessons we should learn from all this violence?

[Lel]

Obey God...and make sure everyone around you does too....

[Inside Edge]

Can't say I know for sure. But here's one angle I take when reading them:

Let's assume, for the time being, these things did not happen as told - so there is some other meaning, moral, or message the writers/speakers are trying to pass on. Now regardless of the timelessness of the bible, the speakers of this story lived in an ancient, violent, very different world from ours. Their mode of thought rarely (if ever) transcended their culture.

So violence of this kind would have been normal, necessary, and commonplace. Not just in reality, and not just in their own personal political history, but also in the stories of almost every culture at the time. This is the way the world operated. And as such, their sensitvities and the things they would or could look beyond - the way they filter information - would be different from the way we do.

So, for example, the lesson of "obedience." We're appalled at the severity of the "lesson," - that we must be obedient to the extent of razing a city and or killing an entire people, or stoning the entire family of one of "our own," if necessary.

And this marks my point: the violence is irrelevant. It may not be part of the lesson. If the lesson is obedience, then the speakers or writers of the story need a vessel to get that across. In a world where tribal nations, nomads, and city-states worshipped an array of deities, warred and raided on a regular basis, violence of this kind would have been matter of fact. They would likely have looked right past the details and absorbed the message that obedience to God is paramount (in this particular lesson).

A modern example, which is a bit weak but might help illustrate the point: I watch Star Wars. At the end (among other things), I see that a few good, motivated people can change the world radically, even in the face of harsh evil. I see that even when "good" appears to be destroyed, it can live on and continue to change things, where evil cannot.

But do I walk away assuming that in order for these good things to manifest themselves, we have to chop each other's limbs off, or develop laser weapons and mass-destructive combat? Do I even have one thought that the message being told is that humanity must advance to space-flight and interstellar colonization and enter into a massive war in order to make things right?

No, of course not. The violent, science-fiction/fantasy details are irrelevant to the moral of the story. They are just a vessel or tools to sell the story in such a way that guys like me can access it.

I have to wonder: If I was an acient Hebrew trying to preserve a lesson God wanted told from generation to generation, in a world of nomadic, ever-conflicting peoples, I'd have to set the story in a way that would affect them, a way for them to access what I was trying to tell them. I have a feeling that a triumphant story about a past prohphet/hero/chosen one who led our people to miraculous military victory (by the will of God) in the land we now occupy would resonate better than, say: the brown bunnies who hopped over the river and asked the gray bunnies on the other side if they would share their carrots - and because the brown bunnies obeyed the instructions on crossing the river, God softened the hearts of the gray bunnies and they made a special rabbit hole and called it "bunnyville" and it is still there to this day.

[lonnienord]

is anyone else still reading? Any idea when you will catch up?

[LiberatedChick]

I'm still reading, still on schedule, just not posting much about the readings at the moment.

[Lel]

I'm still reading but more than a week behind.

[Fish and Bread]

I am way, way behind; which I really have to apologize for. I should really be doing a better job keeping up. The situation is basically that I've been experiencing what might best be described as religious turmoil lately and the Old Testament passages with God slaughtering people were not helping any! I had to kind of take a break in order to maintain my balance.

I think the situation has been resolved, but I'm basically now in a very liberal mode of "scripture is people's accounts of their perceptions of and relationship with God" as opposed to a 100% inspired document. I just can't believe in a God who takes wrath on people and kills them or sends them to hell for not believing the right thing or making small mistakes. God is not a murderous thug or a terrorist or, at least, if he is, I'd rather believe that he isn't. St. Paul tells us that hope and love are two of the three good things he gave us, and so I'm going to hope for love, which is the best way for me to maintain the third thing we were given, faith.

John

[karen freeinchristman]

I am way, way behind; which I really have to apologize for. I should really be doing a better job keeping up. The situation is basically that I've been experiencing what might best be described as religious turmoil lately and the Old Testament passages with God slaughtering people were not helping any! I had to kind of take a break in order to maintain my balance.

I think the situation has been resolved, but I'm basically now in a very liberal mode of "scripture is people's accounts of their perceptions of and relationship with God" as opposed to a 100% inspired document. I just can't believe in a God who takes wrath on people and kills them or sends them to hell for not believing the right thing or making small mistakes. God is not a murderous thug or a terrorist or, at least, if he is, I'd rather believe that he isn't. St. Paul tells us that hope and love are two of the three good things he gave us, and so I'm going to hope for love, which is the best way for me to maintain the third thing we were given, faith.

JohnThis is so totally understandable, John! :)

[Inside Edge]

Behind, but not too bad - a couple of hours will get me caught up. But it's still enough to keep me out of the day-by-day thread.

The other part is, that a lot of these more recent books are a bit boring and uninspiring for me. I guess I had forgotton all the stuff that's mashed between the more familir stories.