God's Relationship with Humankind

[Fish and Bread]

I was pondering the nature of God's relationship with humankind today. One thing that I realized is that, at least on the surface of things, God seems to have had a very different relationship with the ancient Israelites than he has with the Christians. Though undoubtedly our perceptions of events looking back place them subjectively closer together than they actually were, it can sometime seem as though God was constantly calling new prophets to speak directly on his behalf and to guide Israeli in a very personal direct way (i.e. Go attack those people, go build a temple, etc.). God even gave Abraham a new name and called Moses up to a mountain to give me stone tablets with the ten commandments written on them. There were also very obvious supernatural events -- the passover, parting the redsea, plagues of locusts, etc. And books of scripture would be written about these things and accepted near universally.

Yet, as we flash forward to the Christian era, at least after the last parts of the New Testament were written, God's intervention in the world seems a lot less direct, a lot less obvious, and a lot less personal. The first explanation that pops into my head is that, hey, maybe Christianity is a false variation of Judiasm. Besides the fact that I know in my heart and my mind that such isn't the case, though, there's also the fact that ever since the time of Christ God hasn't interacted in very obvious ways with the Jews either! After all, there have been no Jewish prophets since the ones mentioned in the Christian bible and no new books of the Hebrew scripture. From the perspective of both religions, God's relationship with his people dramatically changed at a certain point in history.

So, I'm wondering: What everyone's explanation for the change? Off the top of my head, a few possibilities suggest themselves:

One possibility is that there was something in the nature of the divine revelation of God in Jesus that made what came before a less than desire way for God to continue to act. But why would this be the case? Anyone have any ideas?

Another possibility is that as we've marched towards the modern era, it's simply more difficult to build credible prophets and legends. Look at the Mormons, a church which is essentially an attempt to recreate an Old Testament-like relationship between God and his people, and the way they're scoffed at (Personally, I'd actually think they might be the true church if their doctrines weren't so out of accord with the scripture and the practices of the early Christians). Could it be that legends just don't work after a certain point in history and that a lot of the Old Testament, and maybe even some of the New Testament, was simply metaphor?

The third possibility that lept to mind is that the Roman Catholic Church is an attempt by God to speak to his people the way he did with the Jews in the Old Testament. I'm not convinced, though -- parts of their tradition seem to contradict each other and contradict the scripture (I hope none of my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ take that the wrong way, I'm just expressing my personal impression and don't mean it as a critique or a criticism). And even if they were God's attempt to continue his interactions with humankind in a direct organized fashion, there are still distinct differences with the way he acted in the Old Testament. I haven't seen the Pope part the redsea lately or bring down a stone tablet engraved by God. If the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, God has still chosen to act in a different way with the Popes than the way he treated Abraham and Moses and so forth. And the scriptures have still stopped. There is no "The Book of Pius X", the way that there is "The Book of Isaiah" and so forth. So, we'd still have something that would need a further explanation. :)

What do you all think of these possibilities? What other possible explanations can you all think of for us to consider?

John

[Naomi4Christ]

Old Covenant vs New Covenant?

The people of Israel had the law, but the law does nothing to help them. We have the Holy Spirit to come alongside of us to help us live out the Christian life.

[Fish and Bread]

Old Covenant vs New Covenant?

The people of Israel had the law, but the law does nothing to help them. We have the Holy Spirit to come alongside of us to help us live out the Christian life.

That doesn't necessarily mean that we still wouldn't benefit from God parting a few seas or telling us when we should or shouldn't go to war! :)

John

[Naomi4Christ]

That doesn't necessarily mean that we still wouldn't benefit from God parting a few seas

Why are you so sure he doesn't do these kinds of things today. There is a school of thought that the New Orleans hurricane was a direct judgment of God so that the issue of rich vs poor could be brought to a head - at the very least, God has used the hurricane to highlight these issues.

I certainly believe that angels are at work nudging us out of situations of danger etc.

or telling us when we should or shouldn't go to war! :) Our leaders tell us that they are Christian and that they pray about these things...

[Fish and Bread]

Why are you so sure he doesn't do these kinds of things today. There is a school of thought that the New Orleans hurricane was a direct judgment of God so that the issue of rich vs poor could be brought to a head - at the very least, God has used the hurricane to highlight these issues.

I actually heard a Christian clergyperson allude to that possibility in a sermon last week. I'm not sure I agree with him, since it's notable that the hurricane didn't really impact the Burbon street district most known for the sort of stuff that New Orleans is generally most famous for (Aside from jazz. :)). If it was a judgement from God, he seemed to have missed his target, and God doesn't miss! :)

Let's say for a moment that God does sometimes still act in that sort of fashion, though. Even if that is the case, it's still a different sort of action than the way he acted in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, there was a very obvious and direct correlation between what God said and what happened. Moses would threaten God's wrath on Egypt one day and that night there'd be a plague of some sort! If that sort of thing happens in modern times, we're all kind of left to guess what's an act of God and what isn't. God would be acting very, very subtlely.

Our leaders tell us that they are Christian and that they pray about these things...

Our leaders don't claim the mantle of God the way King David did, though, nor do they say "God told me to go to war". Like the example we used with natural disasters, if God is intervening in politics and current affairs, he's doing so in a much more subtle and really unclear way, which still leaves me wondering: Why the change?

John

[karen freeinchristman]

The incarnation, the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension - it was at that point in time that God's mode of action in the world changed. The Holy Spirit is at work in the hearts of people. Things are different, and I think it's probably something to do with the time we are living in - we don't know when Jesus will come back again, but it feels like something is "in the air". This is probably what many Christians have felt for centuries, but I do think it is something to do with that moment in time when God broke through to be with us.

[Velo Princesse]

Our leaders don't claim the mantle of God the way King David did, though, nor do they say "God told me to go to war".

Not true. Click here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html). This quote is in other articles also and was on the Drudge Report.

I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me 'George, go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq.' And I did.

Anyway, I think that God doesn't have to be so blatent anymore for two reasons. 1- It is no longer hard for us to be forgiven because of Jesus so he doesn't need to 'meddle' quite so much. 2- We have the Holy Ghost, which the Jews didn't have, so we have the constant guidance from God. They just got him sometimes when he spoke directly to them, but we get him all the time.

In other words, he's not as loud but he's still there. I think we have the better deal.

I also think George Bush is crazy:help:, but that's for another thread.

Randi

[Fish and Bread]

Not true. Click here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html). This quote is in other articles also and was on the Drudge Report.

I stand corrected (And kind of scared, but that's another story!). Still, even though President Bush may be claiming that kind of revelation, it isn't nearly so clear as the type of revelations King David received. For one thing, it's strongly disputed in the religious community. Pope John-Paul II expressed strong opposition to the Iraq War. Prior to his evelation, Pope Benedict XVI (as Cardinal Ratzinger) not only opposed the Iraq War, but also went so far as to openly muse that, given the destructive power of modern military technology, there may no longer be any justification for war in our era. In our own Anglican tradition, there have been many bishops who were opposed to, and later apologized for, the war.

So there are some religious heavy hitters who dispute the revelation that Bush may be claiming (I don't want to say is claiming, because the article quotes a second hand source), even in retrospect. I don't remember in the scripture Abraham or Moses or King David saying "God told me blank" and being second-guessed even after the fact by the leaders of the Jewish religious community. Usually, even if there were doubts in the beginning, it was eventually affirmed and they even created scripture about it! So, again, I think they'd be an important distinction between the way God interacted with the Hebrews and the way he interacts with us.

Anyway, I think that God doesn't have to be so blatent anymore for two reasons. 1- It is no longer hard for us to be forgiven because of Jesus so he doesn't need to 'meddle' quite so much. 2- We have the Holy Ghost, which the Jews didn't have, so we have the constant guidance from God. They just got him sometimes when he spoke directly to them, but we get him all the time.

In other words, he's not as loud but he's still there. I think we have the better deal.

Well, having the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of our sins are definitely awesome things! Still, though, the lack of clarity makes me wonder. I mean, granted, the individual Hebrews didn't receive the type of individual guidance we receive today to the same extent that we do, but when guidance came to them as a group, they got instant clarity and they knew it was from God. They didn't have to guess. I would think that they'd be some level of advantage to that sort of a situation, wouldn't you?

John

[cathromang]

One thing to remember about Bush though is that our beloved secular and anti-christian media has dogged him out since he first told them he was Christian and he prayed.
Believe very very little of what the MSM tells you these days.

As far as the talk of God's intercession in New Orleans, I have also heard there was a large "alternative lifestyle" city party planned for the weekend after the storm that of course was cancelled.
But then there are also pictures of the tidal waves with the face of Satan in them going around the internet now...

[Inside Edge]

Let's take the hurricane example, hypothetically for the moment. If that had occurred 3000 years ago, would they have considered it vague or subtle? Maybe they would have just looked at what happened, where it hit the hardest, and in their confusion or distress, trusted their clerics who proclaimed it "wrath of God."

In one of last Sunday's readings (I think it was from Joshua), it talked about God being one who turned fertile valleys into deserts and barren lands, all because of the wickedness of the inhabitants. Sounds like a lot of the "direct" communication was likely based in the analysis of aftermath.

That doesn't take care of seas being parted or rivers ceasing to flow when the ark was carried through it...but it does open up the possibility of either a lot of assumption on the ancient's part, or a serious lack of perspective on ours.

[Fish and Bread]

Let's take the hurricane example, hypothetically for the moment. If that had occurred 3000 years ago, would they have considered it vague or subtle? Maybe they would have just looked at what happened, where it hit the hardest, and in their confusion or distress, trusted their clerics who proclaimed it "wrath of God."

In one of last Sunday's readings (I think it was from Joshua), it talked about God being one who turned fertile valleys into deserts and barren lands, all because of the wickedness of the inhabitants. Sounds like a lot of the "direct" communication was likely based in the analysis of aftermath.


So, if we were to adopt that theology: Would then are *all* natural disasters be due to God's wrath? Or just some of them? If only some, how can we tell the difference? After all, one could probably find a cleric somewhere who would claim every brisk wind is the result of God's wrath, so a few clerics expressing the idea that a given disaster is due to God's wrath wouldn't necessarily make it so, even if we felt that God still sometimes acted in that fashion, unless all disasters were the result of God's wrath. So what's our mechanism for determining such things if they indeed occur?

John

[cathromang]

So, if we were to adopt that theology: Would then are *all* natural disasters be due to God's wrath? Or just some of them? If only some, how can we tell the difference? After all, one could probably find a cleric somewhere who would claim every brisk wind is the result of God's wrath, so a few clerics expressing the idea that a given disaster is due to God's wrath wouldn't necessarily make it so, even if we felt that God still sometimes acted in that fashion, unless all disasters were the result of God's wrath. So what's our mechanism for determining such things if they indeed occur?

John

Good questions!
You have some saying the hurricane hit N.O. cause it was like Sodom and Ghomorra (sp).
You have some that say the AIDS epidemic is God against certain lifestyles.
No matter what happens some will say it's God's wrath.
The problem in the theory of God's wrath "against the unholy" by these methods is that innocent people die too. Does God believe in collateral damage or friendly fire?
I'm no theologian but I just don't see it that way...

[Thomas2618]

Good questions!
You have some saying the hurricane hit N.O. cause it was like Sodom and Ghomorra (sp).
You have some that say the AIDS epidemic is God against certain lifestyles.
No matter what happens some will say it's God's wrath.
The problem in the theory of God's wrath "against the unholy" by these methods is that innocent people die too. Does God believe in collateral damage or friendly fire?
I'm no theologian but I just don't see it that way...

Me either. I heard a great homily the week after Katrina on all of the speculations about the hurricane. A great point was made. Perhaps these things happen not to punish a certain people or anything like that, but to remind us that we humans need God. After these tragedies, we always feel a great yearning for God. Anybody remember how full EVERY church was the sunday after 9/11? I seem to remember a wonderfully beautiful poem about footsteps: the character in the poem is walking in the sand on a beach with Jesus and looking back at the two sets of footprints, but notices that at those hardest times in his life there was only one set of footprints. He asks Jesus why He left him when he needed Jesus most and Jesus answers "During those times when you felt you most needed me, I was carrying you." I cried the first time I read that poem.

[TomUK]

Me either. I heard a great homily the week after Katrina on all of the speculations about the hurricane. A great point was made. Perhaps these things happen not to punish a certain people or anything like that, but to remind us that we humans need God. After these tragedies, we always feel a great yearning for God. Anybody remember how full EVERY church was the sunday after 9/11? I seem to remember a wonderfully beautiful poem about footsteps: the character in the poem is walking in the sand on a beach with Jesus and looking back at the two sets of footprints, but notices that at those hardest times in his life there was only one set of footprints. He asks Jesus why He left him when he needed Jesus most and Jesus answers "During those times when you felt you most needed me, I was carrying you." I cried the first time I read that poem.

Exactly. I always remember the 'Silent Night thing' done after 11th September and though far too cheesy, i do find it very moving.

You say you will never forget where you were when you heard the news on September 11, 2001.

Neither will I.

I was on the 110th floor in a smoke filled room with a man who called his wife to say, "Good-bye."

I held his fingers steady as he dialed

I gave him the peace to say, "Honey, I am not going to make it, but it is OK...I am ready to go."

I was with his wife when he called as she fed breakfast to their children.

I held her up as she tried to understand his words and as she realized he wasn't coming home that night.

I was in the stairwell of the 23rd floor when a woman cried out for Me for help. "I have been knocking on the door of your heart for 50 years!" I said, "Of course I will show you the way home - only believe in Me now."

I was at the base of the building with the Priest ministering to the injured and devastated souls. I took him home to tend to his Flock in Heaven. He heard my voice and answered.

I was on all four of those planes, in every seat, with every prayer. I was with the crew as they were overtaken. I was in the very hearts of the believers there, comforting and assuring them that their faith has saved them.

I was in Texas, Kansas, London. I was standing next to you when you heard the terrible news. Did you sense Me?

I want you to know that I saw every face. I knew every name - though not all know Me. Some met me for the first time on the 86th floor.

Some sought Me with their last breath.

Some couldn't hear Me calling to them through the smoke and flames; "Come to Me...this way...take My hand." Some chose, for the final time, to ignore Me.

But, I was there.

I did not place you in the tower that day. You may not know why, but I do. However, if you were there in that explosive moment in time, would you have reached for Me?

September 11, 2001 was not the end of the journey for you. But someday your journey will end. And I will be there for you as well. Seek Me now while I may be found. Then, at any moment, you know you are "ready to go."

I will be in the stairwell of your final moments.

Remember...I love you.

[Thomas2618]

Here is a link to that poem for those who have not read it before:
http://www.llerrah.com/footprints.htm

[Thomas2618]

Oh my goodness, TomUK, I'm crying. I haven't seen that before.

[TomUK]

There's a really nice mp3 version of it aswell on the internet somewhere.

:wave: :)

[Velo Princesse]

[QUOTE=cathromangYou have some saying the hurricane hit N.O. cause it was like Sodom and Ghomorra (sp).
You have some that say the AIDS epidemic is God against certain lifestyles.
[/QUOTE]

Neither of those two statements make any sense to me. First, the hurricane hit N.O. and did the LEAST amount of damage to the most heavily homosexual area. It also damaged many churches while leaving facilities dedicated to other religions completely intact. And the gay pride parade that was going to happen went on anyway... although it was much smaller, it still happened. The AIDS thing doesn't work because it doesn't only effect homosexuals. The 'aids is the gay disease' thing didn't last very long before everyone started getting it. And, since it's in the blood it is communicable in other ways besides sexual indiscretions so a lot of 'innocents' are dying as a result of that particular epidemic. Seems to me that if those things were the wrath of God, he seriously missed his mark... something he definately didn't do in the OT stories.

I know that you weren't saying you think that, it's just that people who say that sound silly and they make God sound not only evil, but inadequate. It just makes me angry... :mad:

***Rant concluded. Thanks for you patience :)***

Randi

[Jacob4Jesus]

How do we know that things are not happening today in similiar ways to which they were happening before? How do we know there are not prophets out there today with new words from God?

The problem with knowing these things is that people today would not accept them. If Jesus were here and he said he was Jesus, people will think he is crazy or a liar. If someone is a prophet and claims to speak the word of God, he will probably be placed in a psychiatric ward.

I am not one to believe that God constantly intercedes on behalf of those he has speaking for him. He can place the message out there, and just leave it up to us to interpret it. If he gives us a prophet, and we ignore him/her, then that's our own fault. We have the free will to make sure a terrible error.

Also, I think God does communicate with people nowadays. There are people (myself included) who have had profoundly religious experiments. There are people (myself included) who have been approached by what they might conceive as God or Jesus helping them out when they most need it.

Things could be happening today just as they have happened before. It's all in perception.

[Inside Edge]

After all, one could probably find a cleric somewhere who would claim every brisk wind is the result of God's wrath, so a few clerics expressing the idea that a given disaster is due to God's wrath wouldn't necessarily make it so, even if we felt that God still sometimes acted in that fashion, unless all disasters were the result of God's wrath.
Precisely the point I was going for.

So what's our mechanism for determining such things if they indeed occur?
I don't think there is one (or at least, we don't have one).

[karen freeinchristman]

Also, I think God does communicate with people nowadays. There are people (myself included) who have had profoundly religious experiments. There are people (myself included) who have been approached by what they might conceive as God or Jesus helping them out when they most need it.

Things could be happening today just as they have happened before. It's all in perception.I agree with this, and have also experienced some instances of supernatural proportions in God's relationship with me. However,
I think John was thinking along more grandeous lines - in the OT days when God communicated with his people it was about something that usually had huge implications for many people, not just individuals. There don't seem to be any prophets nowadays (or for the last 2000 years) who have either a warning or a direction from God that then progresses to happen in such a way that proves the prophet true.

[ChessCastle]

Neither of those two statements make any sense to me. First, the hurricane hit N.O. and did the LEAST amount of damage to the most heavily homosexual area. It also damaged many churches while leaving facilities dedicated to other religions completely intact. And the gay pride parade that was going to happen went on anyway... although it was much smaller, it still happened. The AIDS thing doesn't work because it doesn't only effect homosexuals. The 'aids is the gay disease' thing didn't last very long before everyone started getting it. And, since it's in the blood it is communicable in other ways besides sexual indiscretions so a lot of 'innocents' are dying as a result of that particular epidemic. Seems to me that if those things were the wrath of God, he seriously missed his mark... something he definately didn't do in the OT stories.

I know that you weren't saying you think that, it's just that people who say that sound silly and they make God sound not only evil, but inadequate. It just makes me angry... :mad:

***Rant concluded. Thanks for you patience :)***

Randi

:clap:


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DuchessDinesOut again.

CC

[cathromang]

I know that you weren't saying you think that, it's just that people who say that sound silly and they make God sound not only evil, but inadequate. It just makes me angry... :mad:

Randi

yep, me too.
Like that family/group thing that goes around to all the soldier's funerals protesting and saying our soldiers die because it's God's wrath against our society...and how God hates certain people.
Like them putting up a monument saying Matthew Shepherd is in hell now. :mad:
They have a different God than I do.

[Velo Princesse]

yep, me too.
Like that family/group thing that goes around to all the soldier's funerals protesting and saying our soldiers die because it's God's wrath against our society...and how God hates certain people.
Like them putting up a monument saying Matthew Shepherd is in hell now. :mad:
They have a different God than I do.

I'm finding lately that most Christians have a different God than I do... :scratch:

[cathromang]

I'm finding lately that most Christians have a different God than I do... :scratch:

Well, it's the lunatic fringe that draws the attention.
Take heart that most christians are not crazies running around creating stirs in society.
The real ones are behind the scenes - showing Christ in their actions and deeds in their day to day lives.
All of those churches down in N.O. helping those people before any of the political action groups were on the scene. That's the church!!
I heard a christian man that was down at the Houston dome cooking ribs and barbeque free of charge for days for the people there.
People like that we see and hear of only occasionally, but they are out there.

And of course our wonderful brothers and sisters in arms here! :)

[erin74]

Sorry - haven't read the entire thread yet.

Doesn't the NT say that even we are greater than John the Baptist, as we have seen christ. As in - those of us post christ have so much more than those before him. Do you think that the Israelites you spoke of would have preferred to live then or now. Don't you think they would have loved to see what Christ acheived - all that they had faith in and hoped for.

We have seen christ - what more do we need. We have the holy spirit. What more do we need. If we are unconvinced by that then there is nothing left to say.

[marciebaby]

Remember in the OT days, how God led the Israelites out of Egypt with a pillar of clouds by day and fire by night? He parted the Red Sea, rained down manna from heaven, etc., etc., and still people said, "Hey Aaron, can you make us a different god? We don't believe in this one anymore."

God made his presence known over and over again. When his people were obedient, he was among them and blessed them, when they wanted to run the show their own way, he backed off and they were overtaken by their enemies.

I think that no matter how obvious God makes his presence known, people will find a way to rationalize it ("Well, the air currents with the humidity in the air mixed and crossed with a low pressure system that created this "pillar" of clouds...") and go on living their lives as selfishly as they want to. I think we've just reached an era where God has said all he needs to say, and it's up to us to choose whether we want to follow him or not.-Although I do believe he is still communicating with us, not on the grand global scale, but as the quiet voice in the stillness of our hearts.

[karen freeinchristman]

Remember in the OT days, how God led the Israelites out of Egypt with a pillar of clouds by day and fire by night? He parted the Red Sea, rained down manna from heaven, etc., etc., and still people said, "Hey Aaron, can you make us a different god? We don't believe in this one anymore."

God made his presence known over and over again. When his people were obedient, he was among them and blessed them, when they wanted to run the show their own way, he backed off and they were overtaken by their enemies.

I think that no matter how obvious God makes his presence known, people will find a way to rationalize it ("Well, the air currents with the humidity in the air mixed and crossed with a low pressure system that created this "pillar" of clouds...") and go on living their lives as selfishly as they want to. I think we've just reached an era where God has said all he needs to say, and it's up to us to choose whether we want to follow him or not.-Although I do believe he is still communicating with us, not on the grand global scale, but as the quiet voice in the stillness of our hearts.
:thumbsup:

[Tetzel]

The problem in the theory of God's wrath "against the unholy" by these methods is that innocent people die too. Does God believe in collateral damage or friendly fire?


I reject the notion that there are "innocent" people. What bother us most about natural disasters is that we die in them. We die because of our inherently sinful nature.

[cathromang]

I reject the notion that there are "innocent" people. What bother us most about natural disasters is that we die in them. We die because of our inherently sinful nature.

hmmm...why was Lot saved then? Daniel? Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego?
Is there no longer anyone worth saving?
Those in the twin towers/N.O. deserved to die because of their inherently sinful nature? If they are not innocent then they are guilty and deserve to die, yes?
That's very much Noam Chomsky with a religious twist.

Are you saying natural disasters occur because of our sinful nature? :scratch:

[Tetzel]

hmmm...why was Lot saved then? Daniel? Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego?
Is there no longer anyone worth saving?
Those in the twin towers/N.O. deserved to die because of their inherently sinful nature? If they are not innocent then they are guilty and deserve to die, yes?
That's very much Noam Chomsky with a religious twist.

Are you saying natural disasters occur because of our sinful nature? :scratch:

Last time I checked, Lot, Daniel and the others experienced death at some point. Just because they didn't die at that point, does not mean that they did not deserve and eventually get death.

Do you think that there are any among us who do not deserve to die?

If so, was it cruel of God to rescind humanity's immortality after we ate the fruit?


If we were not fallen, then such disasters would not kill us, and thus would not bother us. It is our sinful nature that has created the conditions that cause us to be upset by disasters. It is our state of rebellion towards God that is the fundamental cause of our deaths.

[Velo Princesse]

If we were not fallen, then such disasters would not kill us, and thus would not bother us. It is our sinful nature that has created the conditions that cause us to be upset by disasters. It is our state of rebellion towards God that is the fundamental cause of our deaths.

But 9-11 was the result of the sinful nature of the highjackers, not the sinful nature of the people who were in the buildings. When you say that things like that happen because of mans sin, it seems like your talking about the people who, although are not innocent in all things, were innocent in that situation. That was a terrible and tragic day and we should not demean it's memory by blaming the people who did nothing but get up and go to work.

Randi

[Tetzel]

The true source of death is that we are all in a state of rebellion from God.

Actions of individuals can only affect the timing.

[Tetzel]

But 9-11 was the result of the sinful nature of the highjackers, not the sinful nature of the people who were in the buildings. When you say that things like that happen because of mans sin, it seems like your talking about the people who, although are not innocent in all things, were innocent in that situation. That was a terrible and tragic day and we should not demean it's memory by blaming the people who did nothing but get up and go to work.

Randi

I was talking about "innocent" people in the context of a hurricane. It was when I claimed that our suffering is due to our sinful nature that people changed the subject to 9/11, which is quite a different situation as it offers to possibility to blame someone. Why do you want to discuss 9/11 rather than a hurricane?

[Velo Princesse]

I was talking about "innocent" people in the context of a hurricane. It was when I claimed that our suffering is due to our sinful nature that people changed the subject to 9/11, which is quite a different situation as it offers to possibility to blame someone. Why do you want to discuss 9/11 rather than a hurricane?

I don't. I misread your context so I commented on 9-11. I'm a little touchy on that subject today because of comments made in another thread.

Personally, I think that Katrina was just a hurricane and that there is nothing to be read into it. Sometimes a hurricane is just a hurricane.

Randi

[erin74]

I think the difference here is there are different types of judgement.

There is specific judgement as we see on Lot's wife, king Nebukednezzar, and others in teh OT. In the NT we see it on Judas and on Ananias and Saphira (sp??).

There is general judgement, as promised in the OT, of earthquakes and war and famine and drought, etc. This is judgement in the sense that it is as a result of the fall, but not in the sense of it being specifically against those who are suffering under it.

There is the judgement of the fall, which was for all mankind, but through Adam and Eve.

There is the judgement of God on Christ, which is once for all mankind.

I think there is another, but I can never remember them all.

Each of them is differenent in their own way, and should not be confused with one another.

So yes these disasters were as a result of sin, but not necessarily a direct judgement on those people. When God has used specific judgement in the OT and NT we are never left in any doubt as to it's cause - he makes it known that they are being judged. I imagine this would not have changed.

When things like this happen in the world it saddens me when people come out and point their fingers at the victims and say - 'you must have sinned'. That is just like the blind man in the gospels "who sinned, this man or his parents" - "neither". What did Jesus do instead of blaming him. He had compassion on him. This is the behaviour we should emulate. Instead of pointing fingers, how about we show some compassion, and take the opportuinty to show God's love to people, and pray that they may be truly delivered, not just from a storm, but from the final judgement.

[Fish and Bread]

When things like this happen in the world it saddens me when people come out and point their fingers at the victims and say - 'you must have sinned'. That is just like the blind man in the gospels "who sinned, this man or his parents" - "neither". What did Jesus do instead of blaming him. He had compassion on him. This is the behaviour we should emulate.

Good point! :)

John

[Tetzel]

When things like this happen in the world it saddens me when people come out and point their fingers at the victims and say - 'you must have sinned'. That is just like the blind man in the gospels "who sinned, this man or his parents" - "neither". What did Jesus do instead of blaming him. He had compassion on him. This is the behaviour we should emulate. Instead of pointing fingers, how about we show some compassion, and take the opportuinty to show God's love to people, and pray that they may be truly delivered, not just from a storm, but from the final judgement.


Yes. Here is what Christ says of similar disaster.

1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."