Can someone explain this

[Paladin21]

We have some people that are debating the all so popular once saved always saved topic on the spirt filled board. I still have yet to get my questions answers would someone feel brave enough to answer me these scriptures.

Thanks and good bless. :hug:


Some things to chew on


Rev. 3


4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 20

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Ouch :sorry:

James 5

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

:wave:

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

:amen:

Matt. 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'



Wow thats pretty clean cut, I still find it hard to think that you can debate the issue since verse #1 says "I will not Blot his name out of the book" meaning he has the power to. #2 says if we save a BROTHER from sin we save his SOUL from death. #3 says if we take part in the heavenly gift (being saved) if they fall away (which its saying they can) they cannot come back. #4 It says palinly that not everyone who just says "Lord lord" (to me a direct example of sinners prayer) will make it to heaven if they DID NOT DO THE WILL OF GOD.

[tamtam92]

:)
That's a difficult subject. Usually i would say i don't believe in once saved, always saved. And yet, if so, how can one be sure of his/her own salvation -and it's biblical to have this assurance-?

In the end, i'd just say: what's the point? A christian should keep away from sin. Then God is the one who judges.
I'm sure of my own salvation - but i can't really be sure of others. And yet i believe there's a condition to that salvation: that i keep doing the will of God.

I hope it makes sense. I'm writing while thinking - or should i say thinking while writing.

[Paladin21]

In the end, i'd just say: what's the point? A christian should keep away from sin. Then God is the one who judges


Makes perfect sense, however I think a lot of people hide behind that front and its assurance on if they fall away they still will go to heaven. In this case/thread I am not looking to slame it down peoples throats. However in other cases I will, I have saw the once saved always saved doctrine ruin peoples lives.

[mesue]

:)
That's a difficult subject. Usually i would say i don't believe in once saved, always saved. And yet, if so, how can one be sure of his/her own salvation -and it's biblical to have this assurance-?

In the end, i'd just say: what's the point? A christian should keep away from sin. Then God is the one who judges.
I'm sure of my own salvation - but i can't really be sure of others. And yet i believe there's a condition to that salvation: that i keep doing the will of God.

I hope it makes sense. I'm writing while thinking - or should i say thinking while writing.
:scratch: What do you mean when you say "What's the point?"
Don't you want to know for sure?
Don't you want to know that, not only is God's love forever, but so is His salvation?
God wants you to know for sure that you have a home with Him in heaven because Satan wants you to doubt. Because Satan knows that the more you doubt, the more you will turn away from God out of guilt and shame. The further you are from God, the less other's will come to Him through you. And ultimately, that's what Satan wants, less people following Jesus.
Our salvation is not based on a point system with God keeping score. That would be salvation by works. If that were the case we'd all be losers because there is none good enough, pure enough, rich enough to please God. There are no conditions for salvation. It truly is a gift in the purest sense of the word. A gift is something given out of love with no strings attached. The reciever of the gift writes a thank you card to the giver. Our life, the way we live after we are saved, is our Thank You Card to Jesus for our gift of salvation. Does that mean if I don't send a thank you card the gift giver will take back the present? No. I may not recieve any more gifts from that person, the Bible calls them blessings, but the gift is still mine.
I hope this makes sense.

[Iollain]

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

God knows whom His elect are and Jesus prayed for them.

Even so, we walking in this life must heed the warnings in the Bible.

[Paladin21]

Good post some far however I have heard no one try to answer my OP.

[mesue]

Good post some far however I have heard no one try to answer my OP.
What was the question? :blush:

[Joykins]

I think your OP was right on but I have never believed OSAS--unless you posit that the "once saved" is unknowable until the point of death or something.

[Paladin21]

Soory should have cleared that up. The OP was asking really how can you trust in OSAS when these scriptures CLEARLY go against the teaching.

[mesue]

Soory should have cleared that up. The OP was asking really how can you trust in OSAS when these scriptures CLEARLY go against the teaching.
Oh ... :sorry: ... :scratch: Really?
I misunderstood :blush:
However, Once you're saved, you are always saved. Your doubt is Satan's playground.
...

Rev. 3


4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Did you know that the church in Sadris was a fainthearted, wealthy, worldly wimpy church? Why do you think Jesus is telling them to overcome? That He will not cast them out? He was encouraging them to not go after the cares of the world and the pagan religions surrounding Sardis, but to seek Him.


Rev 20

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Right, those that don't accept Jesus as Savior will, indeed, go to Hell.


James 5

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

To err from the truth is to stray from Christ's teachings. We read this if we back up to verse 4. James is saying that if there is someone adding to the gospel of Jesus Christ. James calls them frauds in verse 4. Which many were back then, as well as today. James is saying to bring the "converter" (fraud) back to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.


4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

:scratch: ... Oh! It's Hebrews Chapter 6 :sorry:

What this is saying is that once your saved, i.e. tasted of the heavenly gift,
you don't need to get re-saved, i.e. crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh.
Because, once you're saved, you are always saved.





Matt. 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Yes, there are some that call Jesus Christ Lord and mean that His is Lord. Some mean it as a title, like Mr. There are some who teach that Jesus was a good man and give Him respect in that sort of way, but they deny His diety.

[Paladin21]

Oh ... :sorry: ... :scratch: Really?
I misunderstood :blush:
However, Once you're saved, you are always saved. Your doubt is Satan's playground.


Catchy but I have no doubt as long as I do not live a lifestyle against him and renounce him I will be fine.

Did you know that the church in Sadris was a fainthearted, wealthy, worldly wimpy church? Why do you think Jesus is telling them to overcome? That He will not cast them out? He was encouraging them to not go after the cares of the world and the pagan religions surrounding Sardis, but to seek Him.


Ok if that is the case with them (which I am not sure) why would God say I will not Blot your name out if you overcome? Why would God say something like that if he did not have the power to do so?

To err from the truth is to stray from Christ's teachings. We read this if we back up to verse 4. James is saying that if there is someone adding to the gospel of Jesus Christ. James calls them frauds in verse 4. Which many were back then, as well as today. James is saying to bring the "converter" (fraud) back to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.


Ok these "frauds" as you called them are also called BROTHERS. If you read the orginal meaning of that he is talking to fellow Christians. Why would James say if you a Christian becomes a "fruad" and you convert him back you save his SOUL from death.

.. Oh! It's Hebrews Chapter 6 :sorry:

What this is saying is that once your saved, i.e. tasted of the heavenly gift,
you don't need to get re-saved, i.e. crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh.
Because, once you're saved, you are always saved.

This is wrong it says

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance

Notice he says Impossible, Fall away and repentance.

This has nothing to do with once saved always saved it disproves it!


22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

Yes, there are some that call Jesus Christ Lord and mean that His is Lord. Some mean it as a title, like Mr. There are some who teach that Jesus was a good man and give Him respect in that sort of way, but they deny His diety.


Ok a good question for you, when is the last time you saw a non christian drive out demons and perform miracles?

[mesue]

Why I know that I will never lose my salvation.

Jesus promised that I cannot lose my salvation:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)

I cannot do anything to lose my salvation because:

Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. It is a gift from God. No man can lose his salvation on his own, because no man earned his salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

If I had to do anything to earn or keep my salvation, I would easily lose it.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)

Yet 2 Timothy assures us it is Jesus Christ who keeps us, not we ourselves.

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

(2 Timothy 1:12)

Galatians 2:21 states clearly that if we could become righteous by anything we do, then Jesus Christ’s death was in vein.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

(Galatians 2:21)

God won’t cast me out, no man can cause me to lose my salvation, I cannot lose it myself and there is nothing else to make me lose my salvation

For I am persuaded, that neither

death, - you cannot lose it when you die

nor life, - you cannot lose it while you’re alive

nor angels, - cannot take it away from you

nor principalities, - the government can’t take it from you.

nor powers, - the devil cannot cause you to lose it.

nor things present, - nothing happening right now

nor things to come, - nothing happening in the future.

Nor height, - nothing above you.

nor depth, - nothing below you.

nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

Does this mean I can go on and knowingly sin? Absolutely not!

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15)

But how I serve the Lord while here on earth will be judged.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Corinthians 3:13-15)

[Paladin21]

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)

I cannot do anything to lose my salvation because:

Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. It is a gift from God. No man can lose his salvation on his own, because no man earned his salvation.




No one can pluke them out of his hand you are right. It says nothing about walking away.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

If I had to do anything to earn or keep my salvation, I would easily lose it.


Thats assuming something that is not in there. The verse never says that you cannot lose it in fact all 4 of those verses I gave state that you can.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)

Yet 2 Timothy assures us it is Jesus Christ who keeps us, not we ourselves.


Again Christ does keep us away but he does not HOLD US down if we want to run.

God won’t cast me out, no man can cause me to lose my salvation, I cannot lose it myself and there is nothing else to make me lose my salvation

For I am persuaded, that neither

death, - you cannot lose it when you die

nor life, - you cannot lose it while you’re alive

nor angels, - cannot take it away from you

nor principalities, - the government can’t take it from you.

nor powers, - the devil cannot cause you to lose it.

nor things present, - nothing happening right now

nor things to come, - nothing happening in the future.

Nor height, - nothing above you.

nor depth, - nothing below you.

nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)


Separate us, I do not trust in OSAS but that does not mean that God's love ever ends. It is always there for us...just as God loves the sinners he loves the backslidders.

But how I serve the Lord while here on earth will be judged.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Corinthians 3:13-15)

And the people who did not overcome (Rev. 3) will never make it to this point.

[Erinwilcox]

Soory should have cleared that up. The OP was asking really how can you trust in OSAS when these scriptures CLEARLY go against the teaching.



Actually, these scriptures do NOT go against the teaching "once saved, always saved," if you take a proper view of that doctrine. I prefer to call it Perseverance of the Saints. Now, to explain.



If a person has been TRULY saved, then he will persevere in his faith to the end. God will not blot his name from the book of life, he will enter into heaven, etc. This person may backslide for a time, but a true Christian will return eventually to full fellowship with the Lord. Now, about the "Lord, Lord" verse. In that verse, the people referred to are people who were self deceived. A person can think that they are a Christian because they prayed a prayer or walked an aisle. But does that make a person a Christian just because they did that? No. The Bible says "Repent and believe." People can be saved through those methods; however, if they do not repent of their sins and TURN FROM THEM, then they are not saved-no matter how many times they raise their hand to an alter call. They MUST REPENT and BELIEVE. Repentance includes turning from sin. So, when the verse tells of how the Lord will say that he never knew them (even though they thought that they were saved), he is talking about those who thought that they were saved and were not.



So, I suppose that many would disagree that once saved always saved=perseverance of the saints, but listen to this. If a person is TRULY saved from their sin, then they will persevere in their faith to the end (thus they were always saved). I know that this is different from many people's views on this, but I take a more conservative view. And I would never call it once saved always saved, because it does mean a very different thing to most people. I would only use it here to clarify from those who would say that you can lose your salvation over any little issue. Those who were truly saved in the first place will stay truly saved until the end.

[JPPT1974]

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

God knows whom His elect are and Jesus prayed for them.

Even so, we walking in this life must heed the warnings in the Bible.

We are led by the Spirit of God. And the Son of the Living Jesus.
We are adopted by God when we accept Christ as our Savior & Lord into our hearts and lives.
And that We need to realize we are the children of God.
We must learn to walk and heed God's warnings and obey His will for our lives.

[tamtam92]

What do you mean when you say "What's the point?"
-> i'm asking if the debate is really useful. Often it truns out to be a fruitless debate. yet it seems that it's not the case this time.
Don't you want to know for sure? Don't you want to know that, not only is God's love forever, but so is His salvation?
I don't "want" to know, i already know !!!

So, I suppose that many would disagree that once saved always saved=perseverance of the saints, but listen to this. If a person is TRULY saved from their sin, then they will persevere in their faith to the end (thus they were always saved). I know that this is different from many people's views on this, but I take a more conservative view. And I would never call it once saved always saved, because it does mean a very different thing to most people. I would only use it here to clarify from those who would say that you can lose your salvation over any little issue. Those who were truly saved in the first place will stay truly saved until the end.

:amen: I agree with this. I just couldn't put it into words correctly. :thumbsup:

[mesue]

-> i'm asking if the debate is really useful. Often it truns out to be a fruitless debate. yet it seems that it's not the case this time.
Oh! :doh:
:blush: Sorry, I read this wrong.

I don't "want" to know, i already know !!!
:clap: Praise God!!