Is this legalism?

[arunma]

There's a Christian group at my university called Maranatha Christian Fellowship. For the most part, their theology is quite sound But they oppose many objects of popular culture, such as rock music, body piercings, and various secular holidays. Most recently, they've expressed a belief that Halloween is an occult holiday.

Now, my church is quite theologically conservative. However, we don't oppose secular music, piercings, or Halloween. In fact most of us (well, not me), including one of the pastors' kids, dressed up in Halloween costumes for the harvest party last Saturday. I had a chat with the Maranatha guys about this today, and while they did agree that we weren't sinning unto death, they also maintained that we were taking part in an occult holiday.

Most of us are aware of the pagan origins of Halloween, and yet we're able to celebrate the holiday by faith (because that which doesn't proceed from faith is sin). I'm somewhat concerned that these people are practicing legalism by opposing a secular holiday in which many Christians participate. If a person is personally convicted that it is bad to celebrate Halloween, then I certainly applaud his conviction in the matter. But I think you all can see that it would be very easy for an anti-Halloween person to start preaching that the celebration of Halloween leads Christians into condemnation, and that would be legalism. So where do you think we should draw the line between personal conviction and legalism?

[Project 86]

It's not legalism to believe Halloween is a holiday we shouldn't celebrate as Christians. As a kid I would dress up as Satan and thought it was cool to pretend to be him. I was not a Christian but some of my family was but they didn't see anything wrong with it. I think God did see something wrong with it and I think to many Christians have become numb to things that God finds offensive but the culture embraces.

As for rock music is it just secular rock music they have problems with? I have problems with about 90% of secular rock music. I use to work in the industry and I can give countless reasons why no Christian should listen to that 90% of secular music. I don't believe it's just a matter a consciousness like some try to say. Christian rock music is normally better but I would say there is at least 10% of the stuff out there that is just as bad as the secular music.

Your turn now to reply back. I think this could be a good discussion.

There's a Christian group at my university called Maranatha Christian Fellowship. For the most part, their theology is quite sound But they oppose many objects of popular culture, such as rock music, body piercings, and various secular holidays. Most recently, they've expressed a belief that Halloween is an occult holiday.

Now, my church is quite theologically conservative. However, we don't oppose secular music, piercings, or Halloween. In fact most of us (well, not me), including one of the pastors' kids, dressed up in Halloween costumes for the harvest party last Saturday. I had a chat with the Maranatha guys about this today, and while they did agree that we weren't sinning unto death, they also maintained that we were taking part in an occult holiday.

Most of us are aware of the pagan origins of Halloween, and yet we're able to celebrate the holiday by faith (because that which doesn't proceed from faith is sin). I'm somewhat concerned that these people are practicing legalism by opposing a secular holiday in which many Christians participate. If a person is personally convicted that it is bad to celebrate Halloween, then I certainly applaud his conviction in the matter. But I think you all can see that it would be very easy for an anti-Halloween person to start preaching that the celebration of Halloween leads Christians into condemnation, and that would be legalism. So where do you think we should draw the line between personal conviction and legalism?

[mesue]

When I wasn't saved I celebrated Halloween. Then I was saved and felt that this in no wat glorifies God. I did a study on Halloween and it has definate roots in the occult. There are some that say that it's just inocent fun my answer is

Genesis 3:1 ... Yea, hath God said ...

Which is my reply to any of Satan's subtle lies.

[Joykins]

I believe it is legalism to take matters of personal conscience and make rules for the church from them, yes. It's also a good thing to be considerate of other people's personal decisions on these matters.

I Corinthians 8.

[eldermike]

My problem with these type rules is that the Christian life is lived through submission to God's will, it's not a set of rules. In fact it was rules (laws) that pointed us to Christ in the first place because these laws could not save us.

I think it's fine to tell people (preach) about the worlds traps, but that's as far as it need go.

Legalisim to me begins when someone is concerned about what I do for God and not what God could do through me if I would just stop trying to help him, and let Him have his way with me.

[Gold Dragon]

Our church has an alternative fall fest to Halloween and I'm cool with that. But I also have no problem with kids celebrating Halloween (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween) which is a secular holiday based on the Christian holiday of the Eve of All Hallows Day or All Saints Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints). All Hallows day is a day to commemorate the Christian saints like the 12 disciples and the Early Christian fathers, sorta like a Christian Rememberance Day.

In the Druid/Celtic calendar, Oct 31 is also Samhain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain) Eve which is basically their New Year's Eve. It signifies the end of summer and the beginning of winter. Included in this was the Féile na Marbh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9ile_na_Marbh) or "Festival of the Dead".

[arunma]

It's not legalism to believe Halloween is a holiday we shouldn't celebrate as Christians. As a kid I would dress up as Satan and thought it was cool to pretend to be him. I was not a Christian but some of my family was but they didn't see anything wrong with it. I think God did see something wrong with it and I think to many Christians have become numb to things that God finds offensive but the culture embraces.

As for rock music is it just secular rock music they have problems with? I have problems with about 90% of secular rock music. I use to work in the industry and I can give countless reasons why no Christian should listen to that 90% of secular music. I don't believe it's just a matter a consciousness like some try to say. Christian rock music is normally better but I would say there is at least 10% of the stuff out there that is just as bad as the secular music.
Your turn now to reply back. I think this could be a good discussion.

Indeed this is an interesting topic; thanks for your point of view.

Well first of all, let me say that I certainly do disapprove of dressing as Satan. As for offense to God, I'm not convinced that God finds Halloween offensive. Halloween has dual roots in paganism and Christianity. The European church decided, at some point, that it was better to subject pagan holidays to Christ, rather than to abolish them completely.

I don't deny that the pagan Europeans used to celebrate Halloween as an occult festival. But the fact remains that no believing Christian would deliberately honor false gods by his celebration of Halloween. It says, "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath." (Colossians 2:16). Furthermore, let us remember that God is the creator of all peoples, not only the Israelites. The pagans of Europe perverted the worship of God by introducing idolatry, polytheism, and festivals to honor their false gods. But this doesn't imply that Halloween is bad simply because it came from the pagans. If the celebration of holidays were important to the church, then Christ would have ordained holidays for us. But he did not, and it is clear from Colossians 2:16 that God doesn't require us to not celebrate holidays either. Therefore, I think it is permissible to celebrate Halloween, as long as the celebration is by faith, since whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Now as for rock music, personally I don't listen to it. In fact, the only music I do listen to is religious music, so perhaps I'm not qualified to speak about secular music. That said, I don't think it is sinful for other Christians to listen to secular music (provided that the lyrics don't advocate sin).

When I wasn't saved I celebrated Halloween. Then I was saved and felt that this in no wat glorifies God. I did a study on Halloween and it has definate roots in the occult.

I don't deny the occult history of Halloween. But the proper questions to ask are: do Christians who celebrate Halloween deliberately honor false gods? And does our celebration of Halloween proceed from faith?

[Flynmonkie]

My problem with these type rules is that the Christian life is lived through submission to God's will, it's not a set of rules. In fact it was rules (laws) that pointed us to Christ in the first place because these laws could not save us.

I think it's fine to tell people (preach) about the worlds traps, but that's as far as it need go.

Legalisim to me begins when someone is concerned about what I do for God and not what God could do through me if I would just stop trying to help him, and let Him have his way with me. :thumbsup:

Took the words right out of my mouth! :thumbsup: :amen:

In my studies (this can be a very vast subject) regarding legalism, or what I call simply narrow-mindedness in a nutshell is exactly that. IMHCO.

When I refer to the Bible for examples of legalism I see a lot of information in Galatians. We see legalism in those Pharisees that are obsessed with keeping the laws (ritualistic)
Or we see the Judaizers that need a talking to because they are lax in their Christian walk but easily point at others errors by double standard.

Everything needs to be balanced. For me personally I try hard to keep myself humble, how can I point to anyone until I have reached Christ like perfection (BTW this will not happen in this lifetime but we are to try) I try my hardest to think of this first and foremost on any subject.

If it bothers this group to celebrate this holiday I would respect their wishes. But I would also say that we know that the intent of our hearts is what counts – and how many unsaved that do not know this? Halloween is just another day to party to them (and even some Christians). The greater good in this situation is How many people can we bring to share the gospel with in one night? How many people will come for the candy and walk away with that sweet tooth nourished for life? Eternal?


Personal note: I prefer not to celebrate “Halloween”, but we do have a harvest festival at our church. However that would not deter me to take my children to other children’s Halloween parties (depending) it is no big deal to me because I know my hearts intent. I love dressing my kids up in costumes, placing scare crows around the house blah blah blah….Most people are not dressing their Children to go out and celebrate Satan’s day eek! There is a side that people should watch for--- But if they want to get technical – Christmas is a pagan holiday too? (I suppose this group does not celebrate that either?)

One of my many, many experiences of curtailing my legalism. I don’t like heavy metal Christian music (not my thing) but my son has started firming up a relationship with God by becoming a writer/reviewer for all the new Christian rock bands out there--- you know what? I just watched a man give his testimony that belongs to one of these bands. Tattooed head to toe rings in every place imaginable. But when he opens his mouth to speak there is no question in my mind he knows our father! I was sooo excited to see this – Because not everyone looks the same because we are Christians. Not everyone likes gospel music all the time, or wearing dresses, or suits, or having church only on Sunday. But legalism would be to discount that man for just the way he looks, without investigating further. I was oh so humbly reminded of the verses I believe Solomon wrote He will use the most interesting ways to teach us lessons. What is that verse? About fooling the wise?

I used to give this speech to my employees (Topic Teamwork). Cheesy- I know, but it makes sense when it comes to us as Christians. It is like a hand and fingers on a hand. Each serves the purpose for one. Now expand that to our entire being – each one of us is serving a purpose for God. We could not all be the same – where would the fun in that be? I believe God wants us to enjoy life; Christianity should be fun – not a chore. Placing heavy restrictions only deters people from building that relationship with God. Because it is impossible to be perfect. All things ARE perfected through Christ. All that will come in due time if necessary – you can have faith in the Holy Spirit for that. So just as there is importance to enjoying life – there is also importance in restricting our life too. Somewhere there is a balance. But I believe that is very personal and judged on a case by case venue.IMVHCO

[Project 86]

Flynmonkie, I agree with several things you said. One thing I wonder about though is when you say: I believe God wants us to enjoy life; Christianity should be fun – not a chore. Is that really the case? What about Christians that today are persecuted and killed for their faith? They have to meet in homes in secret. Some Christians in Muslim countries have been burned and scarred for life. Does that sounds fun to you?

[mesue]

...
I don't deny the occult history of Halloween. But the proper questions to ask are: do Christians who celebrate Halloween deliberately honor false gods? And does our celebration of Halloween proceed from faith?

This is my view, I don't think it is legalistic because I don't push my beliefs as gospel truth. I might sound pushy sometimes, but it's up to you to take or leave what I say.
With that said:
Ultimately, you are the one that has to answer to God for your actions. I have to answer to God for mine and if I lead someone into sin I, too, answer for that person's sin.
Let's say you are standing in front of Jesus at His Throne of Grace. You two are reviewing your life and He says "Arunma, you celebrated Halloween knowing full well it's occult history. You encouraged Susie to participate in the celebration. She became fascinated with the occult aspect of it and died with out knowing me."
How are you going to answer when He asks you "Why?"
As I said before, it isn't a matter of what I say is right or wrong, it's a matter of how I live bringing honor and glory to God.

[TwinCrier]

It's never legalism to point out or define what sin is. What most peple call legalism is simply conforming to the bible. Sometimes when someone feels convicted about a sin they either change to repent of that sin, or push aside their guilt and claim legalism.

[arunma]

Is that really the case? What about Christians that today are persecuted and killed for their faith? They have to meet in homes in secret. Some Christians in Muslim countries have been burned and scarred for life. Does that sounds fun to you?

You're certainly correct to point out that Christians in America have suffered from 200 years of dominance. Jesus designed the faith to be one of rebellion against a corrupt world system, so when Christianity becomes mainstream, it becomes corrupted. Indeed, we've probably forgotten how to endure persecution (fortunately, our brothers in other nations can teach us).

I would amend Flynmonkie's statement to say that Christianity should not be a burden to us; rather we should practice the faith with joy. When many of the Roman Christians were killed under Diocletian, they went to their executions joyfully singing hymns to Christ. And certainly we should also worship God in Spirit, rather than in Law.

[mesue]

It's never legalism to point out or define what sin is. What most peple call legalism is simply conforming to the bible. Sometimes when someone feels convicted about a sin they either change to repent of that sin, or push aside their guilt and claim legalism.

I see this a lot.

[eldermike]

It's never legalism to point out or define what sin is. What most peple call legalism is simply conforming to the bible. Sometimes when someone feels convicted about a sin they either change to repent of that sin, or push aside their guilt and claim legalism.

Here is what I can add to this, for what it's worth.
Sure we should repent (turn from sin). It's how we do this that matters in terms of legalism. First, we boast if we claim the power to turn from sin, if it were so the law would have been enough and God would have been justified to burn us all for not turning ourselves from sin. But, He created a way for us, knowing that we were sinners, and while we were yet sinning Christ died for us. If I claim the power to turn from sin I am boasting apart from Christ. If I give my sin to the Lord He will take it, hide it, and still love me. To repent from sin I first need to understand that Christ is my only hope. If I love Jesus I will let Him clean me, He will wash me and I will be changed, made new, I can have victory over sin and death only through Jesus.

[Flynmonkie]

Flynmonkie, I agree with several things you said. One thing I wonder about though is when you say: Is that really the case? What about Christians that today are persecuted and killed for their faith? They have to meet in homes in secret. Some Christians in Muslim countries have been burned and scarred for life. Does that sounds fun to you?
Hey!This is such a complex subject! So are you saying that Christianity should be nothing but a bore or persecution all the time? That we should avoid having fun at all costs? Is this what Christianity is all about? Of course not We are persecuted every day, by the way we look, how much money we have, type of skill we have even how "smart" we are etc.. But are we to dwell on that? Are Christians supposed to think “Hum if I have not been torched at the steak – I must not be a good Christian” “if I am not running around in sackcloth living off the streets giving away EVERY possession I have - I must not be a Christian?” Of course NOT! (I will say if you don’t experience any sort of struggle at times I would question if your getting spiritually lax- but that is a topic for another thread again everything in balance) We have been thought to train our mind through faith, prayer and devotion.

Actually, the way you took that one line out of context it defeats what I tried to portray in this thread. We are not having enmity with the world because we know we are not of this world. But we are choosing to get involved and active with others. How can we share the gospel if we don’t get out and involve ourselves with others? Christ went to parties, he celebrated – he enjoyed his disciples company. He put himself smack in the middle of sinners for a reason. He did not mean LITERALLY separate you from this world. But separate yourself from world’s standards. Just because we enjoy God given life both spiritual and flesh does not mean we are Lovers of this world. It means we love God and we aim to live a good Christian life by example. Not to be confused with giving in to the flesh, but using our God given gifts wisely. It is really simple. If something causes you to sin – cut it out.

Galatians (5 in particular) tells us much on how the Christian should relate. In liberty through Christ. Paul also speaks very pointedly to us about our worldly concerns. One of the passages that sparked my study in this area was:

1 Corinthians 8
1Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. (this is important!)
10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

As I said earlier with everything comes balance, spiritual discernment.

Here is a site that deals with legalism (amongst other issues) http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-Christian-legalism.html
This discussion will always boil down to peoples ideas of how they “should” live their life – and feeling as if others should do / think / act the same. If not they pull the “worldly” or my favorite word “secular” ( which that word has yet to be defined to me) out of their hat.

[Flynmonkie]

;) It's never legalism to point out or define what sin is. What most peple call legalism is simply conforming to the bible. Sometimes when someone feels convicted about a sin they either change to repent of that sin, or push aside their guilt and claim legalism.
Sometimes people feel "convicted" about a sin -- because it is a "sin" for them.

But what you feel convicted of might not be what others are convicted of.

Good example. My ex husbands family are from Spain. Alcohol (wine) is always served with dinner. Now they don't drink to get drunk - it is just custom. Even my children are "used" to this (they don't drink it but have been allowed to taste it) It is simply no big deal- just another refreshment. (Dinner is a big thing in that household)

My family on the other hand suffered much loss because my great grandfather did not know his limits on alcohol. For whatever reason - he lost our family business due to gambling and alcohol. So they are very strict that it is a bad thing.

When I am around that side of the family, I respect their wishes - but I don't believe it is the act of drink that is the sin - it is the intent of the heart - or how you use it.

So to you drinking might be a sin, you might even find scripture that tells you this - but I don't - I too can find that scripture that tells me I am right. Does it make you less of a Christian because you believe this? No. I am not even sure I could say it would put you further behind in your spiritual walk. Just the same with me - it makes me no less of a Christian that I do not feel or experience guilt with a glass of wine. According to Paul’s words in 1 Cor 8. I take this to mean either one of us could be the weaker so by "forcing" my ideas on you would be a sin unto Christ and vice versa. (that does not mean that I might not try to convince ya!)

[Flynmonkie]

This is my view,
Ultimately, you are the one that has to answer to God for your actions. I have to answer to God for mine and if I lead someone into sin I, too, answer for that person's sin.


This is the idea I too have been raised with - no beat into my head! The blood will be on your hands.

But think about it. There are some very obvious things that we should be concerned about creating a stumbling block for others. But for instance just because I don't abuse alcohol does not mean it is my fault that while attending an event with another culture - someone sees me drinking, that I have sinned. I just do not believe this. We cannot know ones heart condition. Now if I know it – I feel to an extent it is a different story. So when I am shopping and another sees me shopping and get themselves into debt because they had seen I spent a lot of money - this is my fault?

Personally, I no longer like the scary factor of Halloween. But there is a fun side to it. Bobbing for apples, dressing up in your favorite character (which actually I thought about posting because I plan to dress my son as an angel for the Harvest festival and I am not sure if that is ok or not) Placing pumpkins around the house, apple cider, pumpkin seeds, candy, hay rides I could go on and on. We have over 3000 kids that attend our harvest festival at church many that are un-churched and unsaved. But once they come we have a tremendous opportunity to share the gospel - I always think it is a neat thing when we get to turn the tables - turning something it to a Glorification to God - that initially might not have been intended to be so. To me it seems Satan does this all the time, twists things to try and use against us, to trick us. IMHCO

[Gold Dragon]

Let's say you are standing in front of Jesus at His Throne of Grace. You two are reviewing your life and He says "Arunma, you celebrated Halloween knowing full well it's occult history. You encouraged Susie to participate in the celebration. She became fascinated with the occult aspect of it and died with out knowing me."

Not everything with an occult past has an occult present.

[arunma]

Let's say you are standing in front of Jesus at His Throne of Grace. You two are reviewing your life and He says "Arunma, you celebrated Halloween knowing full well it's occult history. You encouraged Susie to participate in the celebration. She became fascinated with the occult aspect of it and died with out knowing me."
How are you going to answer when He asks you "Why?"
As I said before, it isn't a matter of what I say is right or wrong, it's a matter of how I live bringing honor and glory to God.

That could very well happen. On the other hand, if I refuse to celebrate Halloween, Jesus might some day tell me that because I added to his Gospel, I placed a yoke on Susie, and she never explored the Gospel for fear of being drawn into fundamentalism. Ultimately, we don't really know how our actions will affect others.

Rather than refuse to celebrate Halloween, I'd like to do so in a way that glorifies Christ. There's a tradition here at the University of Minnesota for students to drive to Madison, and engage in a large, outdoor drinking party on the night of Halloween. As I've said, almost everyone in my church does celebrate Halloween. It's highly likely that unbelievers may come to our party instead. And on the last day, perhaps Jesus will credit us for leading these people away from sinful activities.

What I'm trying to say is that there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with celebrating Halloween. We all agree that witchcraft and idolatry are evil, and certainly I will say that any celebration involving these things is ungodly. But a bunch of Christians dressing up in Halloween costumes, going to a farm, and throwing pies in the faces of the college ministry staff (which is what we did last week) seems honoring to Christ.

[JPPT1974]

Everytime I think about the occult, I think of the Devil and Satanic rituals.
And that the occult tries to attract young people and teens(Which are their main target.)
BTW, we have a Halloween alternative at our church.
I have been going to it two years in a row and will do so the third time this year.

[mesue]

Not everything with an occult past has an occult present.
Halloween still does.
Yea hath God said?

[arunma]

Halloween still does.
Yea hath God said?

To be honest, until I started going to college, I had no idea that Halloween had any occult past. You can make anything occultic. Pagans turn Christmas into an occult holiday. Does that mean we shouldn't celebrate it? Certainly not!

Also, let's remember that God hasn't said anything specifically on the issue of Halloween. Let none of us commit the sin of putting words in God's mouth.

[mesue]

To be honest, until I started going to college, I had no idea that Halloween had any occult past. You can make anything occultic. Pagans turn Christmas into an occult holiday. Does that mean we shouldn't celebrate it? Certainly not!

Also, let's remember that God hasn't said anything specifically on the issue of Halloween. Let none of us commit the sin of putting words in God's mouth.
Actually, the pagan holiday that celebrates the winter solstice was turned into Christmas.
God has a lot to say about the occultic aspects of Halloween.

[arunma]

Actually, the pagan holiday that celebrates the winter solstice was turned into Christmas.

That was precisely my point. In the same fashion as Christmas, Halloween was turned into the eve of All Saints Day.

God has a lot to say about the occultic aspects of Halloween.

But Mesue, God doesn't even mention Halloween in the Bible. God's position on Halloween must be deduced from man's interpretation of God's words on other topics. Not that there's anything wrong with this. After all, the Bible is a book which must express infinite truth with finite words. However, we should never confuse our own interpretations with the direct words of God or Christ. That would be blasphemy.

[Andyman_1970]

He doesn't mention Christian or Easter either in the Bible..................

[mesue]

... But Mesue, God doesn't even mention Halloween in the Bible. ...
But He does call witchcraft a sin and an abomination. He tells us not to follow after that. Read Deuteronomy 18:9-13 and 1 Samuel 15:23 then read Galatians 3:24 before you tell me that we're under grace and no longer under the law. I know this full well and am not under the law and that 1 John 1:9 is still in the Bible as well as Galatians 2:21. However, this doesn't give me the right to put both thumbs in my ears, stick out my tongue and say "Neener, neener, neener." to God as if I hadn't learned a thing about His teaching. I praise Jesus that I don't have to work at pleasing Him, because I know that there is nothing in me that would be good and pure enough to please Him who is perfect. I'm not saying that you can't go, I'm trying to explain why I feel that going would not please God.
Please notice that I said "Feel". These are my feelings. I own them and they're not for anyone but me. Just like your feelings are yours. I'm not saying that you are any more, or less, a Christian because you agree, or disagree, with me. I'm not holding you accountable for disagreeing with me. I am simply presenting my view. To me, that is what legalism is all about.
And isn't it an Awesome God that is so omnipotent and yet so personal that His very word speaks to our hearts in many different ways?

[mesue]

He doesn't mention ... Easter ... in the Bible..................

Yes, He does. Easter is a Pagan Holiday that falls around the same time as Passover.

Act 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

[Flynmonkie]

However, this doesn't give me the right to put both thumbs in my ears, stick out my tongue and say "Neener, neener, neener." to God as if I hadn't learned a thing about His teaching.

Worth repeating. :thumbsup: ..........neener, neener... ;) Classic.......... we really need a classic posts thread.......! :amen:

[Gold Dragon]

That was precisely my point. In the same fashion as Christmas, Halloween was turned into the eve of All Saints Day.

Actually Halloween is All Hallow's Eve or All Saint's Day Eve. These are all Christian names.

So it is more like Samhain Eve was turned into Halloween. Halloween being the Christian version, Samhain being the pagan one.

Here are the pagan-Christian equivalents

Samhain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain) - Halloween (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween)/All Hallows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints)/All Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints)
Eostremonat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre) - Easter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter)
Yule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule) - Christmas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas)

Now all three are more secular than Christian. They aren't pagan/occult at all. I believe the more accurate description would be that pagan celebrations turned into Christian celebrations which are now secular celebrations.

[P_G]

So they preached that this whole Halloween thing and participating in it goes against G-ds plan. They told you of many things that go against G-d's plan.

Is this legalism?

By no means!

If you now choose what is pleasing to do in the eyes of the L-rd then that is what you do. If not and you ignore what is obviously a conviction then you choose not to. G-d's grace is sufficiant and I doubt you are in danger of hell fire.

But let me ask you this. If you invited your pastor over for dinner and you for sure knew he really hated liver would that be what you chose to cook for the meal because YOU liked it? Probably not. Now even if you cooked it at the pastor did what he could to make the best of the meal by eating the rest of what you made he would not stop being your pastor. But he might not be to anxious to have supper at your house again!

If you do that which is not pleasing in the eyes of G-d you rob yourself of a blessing. Perhaps many blessings. To be obedient to the will and the word of G-d is already a blessing.

There is a way which seems right to a man but its path leads unto destruction!

Blessings

PG

[Andyman_1970]

Yes, He does. Easter is a Pagan Holiday that falls around the same time as Passover.

Once again the KJV "selectivly" translates Greek words to put fourth a specific agenda the church had(like baptize instead of immerse for the word baptismo) - the Greek word there means Feast of Unleaven Bread or Passover. That was the arrest of Peter, who was a Torah observant Jew and would have observed Passover.

Easter is a pagan holiday coopted from the festival of Eastre where bunnies and eggs were used as symbols of fertility and spring.

[Gold Dragon]

Actually Halloween is All Hallow's Eve or All Saint's Day Eve. These are all Christian names.

So it is more like Samhain Eve was turned into Halloween. Halloween being the Christian version, Samhain being the pagan one.

Here are the pagan-Christian equivalents

Samhain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain) - Halloween (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween)/All Hallows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints)/All Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints)
Eostremonat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre) - Easter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter)
Yule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule) - Christmas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas)

Now all three are more secular than Christian. They aren't pagan/occult at all. I believe the more accurate description would be that pagan celebrations turned into Christian celebrations which are now secular celebrations.

I should also add that I believe ...
1) we shouldn't celebrate the pagan celebrations
2) we may celebrate the secular celebrations if we wish
3) we should be encouraged to celebrate the Christian celebrations because they are full of rich Christian meaning and tradition

[mesue]

Once again the KJV "selectivly" translates Greek words to put fourth a specific agenda the church had(like baptize instead of immerse for the word baptismo) - the Greek word there means Feast of Unleaven Bread or Passover. That was the arrest of Peter, who was a Torah observant Jew and would have observed Passover.

Easter is a pagan holiday coopted from the festival of Eastre where bunnies and eggs were used as symbols of fertility and spring.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. This is not the place to discuss your dislike of the KJV or that Easter and Passover are entirely different holidays.
I was merely pointing out the fact that you said Easter wasn't mentioned in the Bible. And, it is. :)

[mesue]

Worth repeating. :thumbsup: ..........neener, neener... ;) Classic.......... we really need a classic posts thread.......! :amen:

LOL, thanx :D

[Gold Dragon]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. This is not the place to discuss your dislike of the KJV or that Easter and Passover are entirely different holidays.
I was merely pointing out the fact that you said Easter wasn't mentioned in the Bible. And, it is. :)

The greek word translated into easter in the KJV in Acts 12:4 is pascha (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3957) which the KJV translators translated into passover for the other 28 times it appears in the NT. The reason they chose this word is probably because they considered the easter and passover celebrations to be the same, or at least they were associated in time annually in the minds of the KJV translators.

A formal annual Christian celebration of Jesus' ressurection didn't come about until several hundred years after the writing of Acts.

[Andyman_1970]

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

And I with you sister.

This is not the place to discuss your dislike of the KJV…

I have nothing against the KJV, as long as those who read it understand there were underlying political and religious agendas at work in it’s translation – baptism is one example, Jesus’ proper name is another.

or that Easter and Passover are entirely different holidays.

Post 325 AD the church in an effort to erase it’s Hebraic roots and put fourth it’s own agenda coopted Eastre as it’s own celebration in an effort to create it’s own set of holidays. I have no problem with the celebration of Easter as long as people understand it’s roots – but to dogmatically proclaim that the early church celebrated that is without historical substantiation.

I was merely pointing out the fact that you said Easter wasn't mentioned in the Bible. And, it is. :)

Not in the Greek it’s not, it’s inclusion in English translations is purely to put fourth a flawed man made agenda from the middle ages.

[Flynmonkie]

I have nothing against the KJV, as long as those who read it understand there were underlying political and religious agendas at work in it’s translation

I have always suspected this. In addition, to understand the cultural difference of the time. This is the first time I have seen another member of CF that feels the same way. :thumbsup:

[Andyman_1970]

I have always suspected this. In addition, to understand the cultural difference of the time. This is the first time I have seen another member of CF that feels the same way. :thumbsup:

Great minds think alike.............LOL............... ;)

[mesue]

And I with you sister.



I have nothing against the KJV, as long as those who read it understand there were underlying political and religious agendas at work in it’s translation – baptism is one example, Jesus’ proper name is another.



Post 325 AD the church in an effort to erase it’s Hebraic roots and put fourth it’s own agenda coopted Eastre as it’s own celebration in an effort to create it’s own set of holidays. I have no problem with the celebration of Easter as long as people understand it’s roots – but to dogmatically proclaim that the early church celebrated that is without historical substantiation.



Not in the Greek it’s not, it’s inclusion in English translations is purely to put fourth a flawed man made agenda from the middle ages.
I only know what my Bible tells me. I did look it up in Strong's (connected to my KJV)

G3957

πάσχα

pascha

pas'-khah

Of Chaldee origin (compare [H6453]); the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it): - Easter, Passover.


Therefore, you still stand corrected as Easter IS SO in the Bible
*says with arms crossed in a childish voice* Hmmph!:D

[Andyman_1970]

I defer to Gold Dragons comments on this.

*In my best childish voice*............"no it's not" LOL

[mesue]

I defer to Gold Dragons comments on this.

*In my best childish voice*............"no it's not" LOL

:D

[Flynmonkie]

Great minds think alike.............LOL............... ;)
Well you'll have to speak for yourself there.....When I get on to my children ...I still have to hit every family members names before I get to the right one. (including pets!) My mind is obviously blown. They tease me - but I just tell them it is all inclusive and I play no favorites. ;)

Seriously this is interesting there was another member (older man) that I study with quite a bit that posed some very pointed questions surrounding this topic, I could not answer. Apparently no one else could either because he was bludgeoned and tossed off the boards. This aspect is irritating at times. :sigh: If we cannot answer there are usually two reasons. We either do not have the knowledge (God given or something that is Gods alone) or we are not studying enough.IMHO

[Gold Dragon]

Here are the pagan-Christian equivalents

Samhain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain) - Halloween (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween)/All Hallows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints)/All Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints)
Eostremonat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre) - Easter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter)
Yule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule) - Christmas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas)

Forgot to mention another pagan winter solstice celebration Saturnalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia) that Christmas replaced.

[Andyman_1970]

Also the 12 days of advent were originally the celebration of the birth of Caesar Augustus, whom it was said was the “prince of peace”.

[Gold Dragon]

Also the 12 days of advent were originally the celebration of the birth of Caesar Augustus, whom it was said was the “prince of peace”.

Never heard that one before. Do you have any evidence or research to back this up? I've heard many urban legends about the origins of the 12 days of Christmas.

[If Not For Grace]

Dr. Gene Scott used to call those do-do this and don't do that "Christians" "Funkamenatilists". I liked that term. We are saved by Grace and nothing we "do" can save us. If we will just put God First and Love our neighbor, we will have enough to do w/o worring about all the rest...

[TwinCrier]

But we still have the same consequences when we sin.

Easter in the KJV could not possibly mean passover: http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_ac12_4.html

[carmi]

Yes, He does. Easter is a Pagan Holiday that falls around the same time as Passover.

:wave: I found this



Now let us look at Acts 12:3, 4:

"And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."

Verse 3 shows that Peter was arrested during the days of unleavened bread (April 15-21). The Bible says: "Then were the days of unleavened bread." The passover (April 14th) had already come and gone. Herod could not possibly have been referring to the passover in his statement concerning Easter. The next Passover was a year away! But the pagan holiday of Easter was just a few days away. Remember! Herod was a pagan Roman who worshipped the "queen of heaven". He was NOT a Jew. He had no reason to keep the Jewish passover. Some might argue that he wanted to wait until after the passover for fear of upsetting the Jews. There are two grievous faults in this line of thinking.

First, Peter was no longer considered a Jew. He had repudiated Judaism. The Jews would have no reason to be upset by Herod's actions.

Second, he could not have been waiting until after the passover because he thought the Jews would not kill a man during a religious holiday. They had killed Jesus during passover (Matthew 26:17-19, 47). They were also excited about Herod's murder of James. Anyone knows that a mob possesses the courage to do violent acts during religious festivities, not after.

In further considering Herod's position as a Roman, we must remember that the Herods were well known for celebrating (Matthew 14:6-11). In fact, in Matthew chapter 14 we see that a Herod was even willing to kill a man of God during one of his celebrations.

It is elementary to see that Herod, in Acts 12, had arrested Peter during the days of unleavened bread, after the passover. The days of unleavened bread would end on the 21st of April. Shortly after that would come Herod's celebration of pagan Easter. Herod had not killed Peter during the days of unleavened bread simply because he wanted to wait until Easter. Since it is plain that both the Jews (Matthew 26:17-47) and the Romans (Matthew 14:6-11) would kill during a religious celebration, Herod's opinion seemed that he was not going to let the Jews "have all the fun." He would wait until his own pagan festival and see to it that Peter died in the excitement.

Thus we see that it was God's providence which had the Spirit-filled translators of our Bible (King James) to CORRECTLY translate "pascha" as "Easter". It most certainly did not refer to the Jewish passover. In fact, to change it to "passover" would confuse the reader and make the truth of the situation unclear.

[tamtam92]

Well i don't know but, in french, "Easter" is translated "Pâques", which can be translated "Passover". We have only one word, so...

[Andyman_1970]

Never heard that one before. Do you have any evidence or research to back this up? I've heard many urban legends about the origins of the 12 days of Christmas.

The Caesars claimed they were sent to earth to renew creation. Caesar Augustus believed he was the son of god, he was god incarnate on earth, the prince of peace (as I said before) who had come to restore all creation. During advent his priests would offer sacrifices and burn incense to rid people of their guilt. One popular slogan of the Caesars was “there is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved than that of Caesar” they would also have on their coins “Caesar is lord” – so in this time a community of people says “the only name under heaven by which a man can be saved is Jesus” and they say “Jesus is lord” these are highly political statements so you can see why many of them were killed for their faith. A Roman city that acknowledged Caesar as lord was called and ekklesia……………sound familiar?

Check out the books Christ and the Caesars by Ethelbert Stauffer and Richard Horsley’s Jesus and the Empire. Christ and the Caesars is kind of an old book (1952) so you might have to check your local library to find it.

[mesue]

:wave: I found this



That's exactly how it was taught during a Bible study in my church about 7 tears ago. Thank you. :thumbsup:

[Andyman_1970]

Thus we see that it was God's providence which had the Spirit-filled translators of our Bible (King James) to CORRECTLY translate "pascha" as "Easter". It most certainly did not refer to the Jewish passover. In fact, to change it to "passover" would confuse the reader and make the truth of the situation unclear.

Yeah why confuse people with historical accuracy.................... :doh:

[mesue]

Yeah why confuse people with historical accuracy.................... :doh:
Whose accuracy?

[Andyman_1970]

Please show me historical evidence that Easter was celebrated during the time frame that the book of Acts documents. If we divorce the Bible from it's historical context man can twist the Text to make it say whatever they wish - example my comments about the agendas in the translation of the KJV, which I believe the use of Easter in lieu of Passover is used.

Remember during the time the KJV was being assembled, hatred towards Jews was rampant, Luther the father of the reformation, was a serious anti Semite. The reformation was at least in part the "spark" for the creation of the KJV, so there could be a translation besides what the Catholic church used. IMO this is an obvious attempt to further divorce the Christian faith from it's Hebraic roots.

If you can show me historical evidence to the contrary I would sincerly consider it (I'm serious), otherwise IMO you're just parroting a 600 year old agenda, that IMO is unBiblical.

[arunma]

Well i don't know but, in french, "Easter" is translated "Pâques", which can be translated "Passover". We have only one word, so...

As someone who speaks a small amount of French (un peu, to be sure), I would like to hear more about this. Are there separate French words to refer to the Christian Easter and the Passover of the Israelites, or does Pâques refer to both of them?

[mesue]

Please show me historical evidence that Easter was celebrated during the time frame that the book of Acts documents ...
You go first.

[Andyman_1970]

You go first.

You're the one asserting this, the responsibility for proof lies on you. It's not my job to prove you're point for you.

[Andyman_1970]

You go first.

You're the one asserting this, the responsibility for proof lies on you. It's not my job to prove your point for you.

[mesue]

You're the one asserting this, the responsibility for proof lies on you. It's not my job to prove you're point for you.
Noooo ....
You said I was wrong, first. You prove your point.

[Andyman_1970]

Easter was not a Christian observance until the late 1st century at the earliest.

From Wikpedia:

Easter in the early Church
The observance of any special holiday throughout the Christian year is believed by some to be an innovation postdating the early church. The ecclesiastical historian Socrates Scholasticus attributes the observance of Easter by the church to the perpetuation of local custom, "just as many other customs have been established", stating that neither Jesus nor his apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival. However, as the read in context this is not a rejection or denegration of the celebration—which, given its currency in Scholasticus' time would be surprising—but is merely part of a defense of the diverse methods for computing its date. Indeed, although he describes the details of the Easter celebration as deriving from local custom, he insists the feast itself is universally observed.

Perhaps the earliest extant primary source referencing Easter is a 2nd century Paschal homily by Melito of Sardis, which characterizes the celebration as a well-established one.

According to a number of ecclesiastical historians, primarily Eusebius, bishop Polycarp of Smyrna, by tradition a disciple of John the Evangelist, disputed the computation of the date with bishop Anicetus of Rome in what is now known as the Quartodecimanism controversy. Anicetus became bishop of the church of Rome in the mid second century (c. A.D. 155). Shortly thereafter, Polycarp visited Rome and among the topics discussed was when the pre-Easter fast should end. Those in Asia held strictly to the computation from the Hebrew calendar and ended the fast on the 14th day of Nisan, while the Roman custom was to continue the fast until the Sunday following. Neither Polycarp nor Anicetus was able to convert the other to his position—according to a rather confused account by Sozomen, both could claim Apostolic authority for their traditions[1]—but neither did they consider the matter of sufficient importance to justify a schism, so they parted in peace leaving the question unsettled. However, a generation later bishop Victor of Rome excommunicated bishop Polycrates of Ephesus and the rest of the Asian bishops for their adherence to 14 Nisan. The excommunication was rescinded and the two sides reconciled upon the intervention of bishop Irenaeus of Lyons, who reminded Victor of the tolerant precedent that had been established earlier. In the end, a uniform method of computing the date of Easter was not formally settled until the First Council of Nicaea in 325 (see below), although by that time the Roman timing for the observance had spread to most churches.

You said it was mentioned as a "pagan" holiday, ok in one translation. It doesn't indicate that was a Christian observed holiday, which was my point back on post #25 - neither Christmas nor Easter are mentioned as holidays for a Christian to observe.

So the onus is back on you, you seem to indicate that the church during the time the book of Acts documents did celebrate Easter as a Christian holiday. Acts was written about the year 70, and documents some 10+ years after Jesus' resurrection - around the middle of the second century seems to be when Easter was recognized as a Christian celebration. So again, I ask for historical evidence to prove such a claim.

If however you were not asserting that the mention of Easter in Acts was a reference to Christians celebrating the resurrection then my apologies for the misunderstanding.

[JPPT1974]

Sadly though, people overlook the true meaning of Easter for Easter eggs & candy and Easter bunny.
Thanks btw for that info! :thumbsup:

[mesue]

Easter was not a Christian observance until the late 1st century at the earliest.

From Wikpedia:



You said it was mentioned as a "pagan" holiday, ok in one translation. It doesn't indicate that was a Christian observed holiday, which was my point back on post #25 - neither Christmas nor Easter are mentioned as holidays for a Christian to observe.

So the onus is back on you, you seem to indicate that the church during the time the book of Acts documents did celebrate Easter as a Christian holiday. Acts was written about the year 70, and documents some 10+ years after Jesus' resurrection - around the middle of the second century seems to be when Easter was recognized as a Christian celebration. So again, I ask for historical evidence to prove such a claim.

If however you were not asserting that the mention of Easter in Acts was a reference to Christians celebrating the resurrection then my apologies for the misunderstanding.
:scratch: You went to a secular source to back up your stance on a Christian doctrinal issue?
I was watching one of the learning channels today (I don't know if it was Discovery or the History Channel or the Learning channel) It is a secular channel none the less. It said that Jesus was a dicsiple of John the Baptist and that He told John that He needed to be baptised to have His sins forgiven! That's not what my Bible says. My Bible says that Jesus was without sin. My point is that I can't believe a secular stance on a Biblical issue. I suppose if I never actually read the Bible, I'd be ignorant enough to believe that Jesus was a follower of John the Baptist and was full of sin.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


anyway, here's my Christian source:


THE CRITIC SAYS: "A most unfortunate translation! In each of the 28 other New Testament passages the Greek ‘pascha’ is translated `Passover.' The same is true of the Hebrew pesach, it is always `Passover.' Why this one exception in Acts 12:4? Further, the word `Easter' was not used in the Christian sense until much later." • "And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread. And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quarternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people" (Acts 12:3,4). ANSWER: You may be surprised to know that the word "passover" did not even exist before William Tyndale coined it for his Version of 1526-31. His was also the first English Bible to use "Easter." Previously the Hebrew and Greek were left untranslated. For example, in Wycliffe's Bible, which was based on the Latin, we find pask or paske.
...
It is precisely in this one passage that "Easter" must be used, and the translation "Passover" would have conflicted with the immediate context. In their rush to accuse the Authorized Version of error many have not taken the time to consider what the passage actually says: "(Then were the days of unleavened bread.)...intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."

(from: http://www.av1611.org/kjv/easter2.html)

[Andyman_1970]

:scratch: You went to a secular source to back up your stance on a Christian doctrinal issue?

I would hardly characterize this discussion as to whether or not Christians in Acts 12 observed Easter as a Christian holiday worthy of the “doctrinal” label, but oh well.

So is your assertion that only things labeled “Christian” are true? Remember the word Christian in the Bible is a noun not an adjective. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3 says “all things are yours whether life, death, present or future – all are yours, because you are of Christ, and Christ is of God (and He made everything). Paul in Acts 17 and in Titus 1 quotes pagan poets and prophets and says what they said was true. Paul didn’t quote Christian or Jewish sources, he quotes pagan sources. So to have the attitude that “I’ll only read Christian books” is not really a Biblical attitude. Both Paul and Jesus as Jewish rabbi’s would have had the entire Jewish Oral Torah memorized, which as Christians we do not consider Christian, or Biblical – and yet they studied stuff that was extra Biblical.

:I was watching one of the learning channels today (I don't know if it was Discovery or the History Channel or the Learning channel) It is a secular channel none the less. It said that Jesus was a dicsiple of John the Baptist and that He told John that He needed to be baptised to have His sins forgiven! That's not what my Bible says. My Bible says that Jesus was without sin. My point is that I can't believe a secular stance on a Biblical issue. I suppose if I never actually read the Bible, I'd be ignorant enough to believe that Jesus was a follower of John the Baptist and was full of sin.

I didn’t quote the History channel, so your example and source are irrelevant to this discussion.

:anyway, here's my Christian source:

Just because it has a Christian “label” on it doesn’t make it true, just because it doesn’t have a Christian label on it doesn’t not make it true either. Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “test everything, hold on to the good” – notice he doesn’t say “test only Christian things”. You cite a “pro KJV only site” not really an objective (and IMO historically accurate) source – so again if you can cite for me historical evidence that Christians in Acts 12 celebrated Easter as a Christian holiday I’ll be more than happy to seriously consider it. What you cited was parroting the KJV only party line – the only version (that I have found) that translates it as Easter.

[mesue]

... Paul in Acts 17 and in Titus 1 quotes pagan poets and prophets and says what they said was true. ...
Many unholy people are quoted in the Bible. Moses quotes Satan right in the beginning of Genesis ... "Yea, hath God said" ...
That speaks volumes to me as how truth gets twistred, just a wee little bit, to make one doubt God's very own word.
It is clear to me that a debate here would be friutless. I have neither the time, energy, nor motivation to discuss one word in the Bible, out of 783,137 of which neither adds nor decreases to one comming to know the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. But to the unsaved, seeing such a petty debate like this may have them reconsider seeking out the Lord Jesus Christ. And in the end, it's not how I feel the meaning of the word easter is that matters, but what have I done to bring others to Christ and how my life has glorified the Father.

FWIW
I, and a bunch of teens from church, are going to a Christain rally that includes "The Walk of Fear" It's at a Christian Camp in WNY today.
http://www.circlecranch.org/Assetts/Fright2005.htm

We're told to walk circumspectly, see all sides of the matter. I was merely presenting the side that everyone poo-poos. Why, because it needs to be out there. We are called to shed light on the darkness, and there are dark sides to Halloween and Easter. But what Satan meant for evil, God will use for good.

Ephesians 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

May God bless you immensely, Andy.

[Andyman_1970]

Many unholy people are quoted in the Bible. Moses quotes Satan right in the beginning of Genesis ... "Yea, hath God said" ...
That speaks volumes to me as how truth gets twistred, just a wee little bit, to make one doubt God's very own word.

Yeah Moses does quote Satan, but Paul affirms what these pagan prophets say as true. Remember Romans 2 where Paul says that some times people who don’t have the Torah sometimes do what is required of the Torah – sometimes people who don’t know God do and say true things. I’m not twisting Scripture I’m trying to view it from the most holistic and contextually whole perspective, not cutting and pasting to suit a particular agenda.

It is clear to me that a debate here would be friutless. I have neither the time, energy, nor motivation to discuss one word in the Bible, out of 783,137 of which neither adds nor decreases to one comming to know the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

I’m more than willing to consider your position as I have said 3 times if you can show me historical evidence that during the time in history that the book of Acts documents Christians celebrated Easter as a Christian holiday. You on the other hand have made statements with little or no historical substantiation and refuse to do the work to prove your point. I’m willing to consider you’re point if you can show me historical evidence, but the fact that you are unwilling to provide such evidence speaks volumes.

But to the unsaved, seeing such a petty debate like this may have them reconsider seeking out the Lord Jesus Christ. And in the end, it's not how I feel the meaning of the word easter is that matters, but what have I done to bring others to Christ and how my life has glorified the Father.

I believe we have conducted ourselves in a Christ like manner in this discussion, I would hope a lost person would be encouraged that two Christians could politely disagree on something. The tradition Jesus comes from values debating and questioning the Text, so as a disciple my whole life is to be centered around doing what Jesus did, which is why I question things and discuss the Text.

FWIW
I, and a bunch of teens from church, are going to a Christain rally that includes "The Walk of Fear" It's at a Christian Camp in WNY today.
http://www.circlecranch.org/Assetts/Fright2005.htm

We're told to walk circumspectly, see all sides of the matter. I was merely presenting the side that everyone poo-poos. Why, because it needs to be out there. We are called to shed light on the darkness, and there are dark sides to Halloween and Easter. But what Satan meant for evil, God will use for good.

I hope you’re not asserting your position is “light” and mine is “dark” – I could be reading too much into that.

Also that whole “But what Satan meant for evil, God will use for good” can also be used for references and sources that are not “Christian” – all truth is God’s truth regardless of the earthly author – if it’s true it’s from God, whether its on the History channel, Wikepedia or in a Christian book.

May God bless you immensely, Andy.

And you as well my sister and you as well, may He give you His shalom………………………

[mesue]

...
Also that whole “But what Satan meant for evil, God will use for good” can also be used for references and sources that are not “Christian” – all truth is God’s truth regardless of the earthly author – if it’s true it’s from God, whether its on the History channel, Wikepedia or in a Christian book.

…
Yea, hath God said?

[Andyman_1970]

Yea, hath God said?

Jesus says He is "the Truth"..............anything that isn't true isn't of Jesus and anything that is true is of Jesus, there is no truth outside of Jesus He is the ultimate reality.

Would you say this statement is true:

I was listening to a commentary on the radio several months ago, about western American culture. The speaker starts talking about western culture and that materialism and greed caused people to live as such frenetic paces, and that they end up working so hard and moving so fast they begin to become more and more isolated from each other. He says life only works when your in intimate connected community with each other, and what happens is we become more isolated and we work harder and harder for stuff we don’t really need. He pointed to the break down of families and community as the effects of this lifestyle. He goes on to assert that strong tight communities and families are what pass values of substance of value to the next generation.



Do you always speak in King James English.................LOL (j/k) ;)

[Hisbygrace]

This is my view, I don't think it is legalistic because I don't push my beliefs as gospel truth. I might sound pushy sometimes, but it's up to you to take or leave what I say.
With that said:
Ultimately, you are the one that has to answer to God for your actions. I have to answer to God for mine and if I lead someone into sin I, too, answer for that person's sin.
Let's say you are standing in front of Jesus at His Throne of Grace. You two are reviewing your life and He says "Arunma, you celebrated Halloween knowing full well it's occult history. You encouraged Susie to participate in the celebration. She became fascinated with the occult aspect of it and died with out knowing me."
How are you going to answer when He asks you "Why?"
As I said before, it isn't a matter of what I say is right or wrong, it's a matter of how I live bringing honor and glory to God.

What a wonderful way of putting it. Thank you...

[carmi]

I’m more than willing to consider your position as I have said 3 times if you can show me historical evidence that during the time in history that the book of Acts documents Christians celebrated Easter as a Christian holiday.

In post 27 Mesue said that Easter is a Pagan holiday.

Acts 12:4 speaks about Herod, his intentions and his holiday which is not the same as the Jewish holiday of Passover.

I don't see this verse as an indication that Christians back then celebrated Easter as a Christian holiday.

I am hesitant of posting links where you can find info about Easter, the festival of Ishtar / Astarte, spring festivals ... but you can type these keywords into a search engine and you will find information that these festivals existed and that they were celebrated around that time.

[Andyman_1970]

In post 27 Mesue said that Easter is a Pagan holiday.

Acts 12:4 speaks about Herod, his intentions and his holiday which is not the same as the Jewish holiday of Passover.

I don't see this verse as an indication that Christians back then celebrated Easter as a Christian holiday.

I am hesitant of posting links where you can find info about Easter, the festival of Ishtar / Astarte, spring festivals ... but you can type these keywords into a search engine and you will find information that these festivals existed and that they were celebrated around that time.

Thank you sister............