1844.....

[StormyOne]

“Our fondest hopes…were blasted, and such a spirit of weeping came over us as I never experienced before… We wept, and wept, till the day dawn.”

That was Hiram Edson’s commentary on the early hours of Oct. 23, 1844. He spoke those words 160 years ago. Do they ring any bells at all for Adventists in 2004?



If you’re new in these parts you need to know that the roots of Adventism go back to that Great Disappointment of 1844, when thousands of devout Christians believed that Jesus was going to return on Oct. 22. Daniel 8:14 was the key verse: “Unto two thousand three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” The “sanctuary” was the earth; the cleansing was Jesus’s second coming; and the 2,300 days were actually years, taking them to 1843-44. They set the date, waited until midnight, then wept until the sun rose again on the same old earth.



Let’s look at all that: the pain and embarrassment, picking up the pieces; and sharpening the focus.



Pain and Embarrassment



If the survivors of the Great Disappointment itself had to weather the mockery of unbelievers, those who have followed them in Adventism have faced quite a different kind of pain: fear and shuddering in the presence of a holy God. But that too is the experience of an older generation. It’s foreign territory to most of their children. Can I tell you what it’s like? Probably not. But at least I should try.



Realizing that the earth itself was not the sanctuary to be cleansed, our Adventist pioneers focused on the only sanctuary left, the one in heaven. And the angel Gabriel himself had told Daniel that the vision of the cleansed sanctuary was for the “time of the end” (Daniel 8:17). That would mean it’s for us. Now.

http://www.atoday.com/265.0.html

[StormyOne]

It is significant that this attempt to defend the sanctuary doctrine and 1844 was not made by one of the scholars of the SDA denomination. Very few of this group could be persuaded to do what Goldstein has tried to do. They know too much and think too highly of their reputations. Adventist scholars never write on the sanctuary doctrine and 1844 for non-Adventist journals or readers.

Clifford is certainly correct when he tells us, ‘The mass of American Adventism couldn’t give an intelligent study on that doctrine (1844 and the Investigative Judgement) if their eternal destiny depended on it... You probably haven’t heard a sermon on it or read about it in years’ (p.11).

True, because many, many Adventist pastors have known for a long time that the traditional SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgement is not to be found in Scripture.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org.au/panic_th.htm

[StormyOne]

The issue of 1844 and the Investigative Judgment can be easily resolved. All you have to do is read Hebrews 9 in any accurate modern translation.

It is a well-established Christian principle that the Old Testament is to be understood in the light of the New Testament. (The doctrine of 1844 and the Investigative Judgment seeks to interpret the New in the light of the Old.)

Hebrews is the only book in the Bible that examines the meaning of the Day of Atonement ceremonies. The early verses of Hebrews 9 tell us that the two apartments of the earthly sanctuary represent the two covenants and the two eras of the Old Testament and the New. Verses 8, 12, and 25 say that Christ fulfilled the Day of Atonement-type by his death-and-resurrection atonement. Hebrews 9:23 (compare 1:3 where the Greek root for ‘cleanse’ is the same) tells us the heavenly sanctuary was cleansed by the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. The very heart of the ancient Day of Atonement was the sacrifice. There was no sacrifice in 1844.

Christ Is Sufficient

Let none think that when Jesus cried, ‘It is finished!’ on the cross he really meant, ‘It is begun.’ Neither should any miss the glorious truth that Hebrews clearly teaches: Christ entered the heavenly Most Holy Place by virtue of his death. (Scripture’s symbolism says he entered the Most Holy Place through the veil, or curtain, which is His body, 10:19.)

Ever since Christ made His grand entrance, the way into the presence of God has stood open for the guilty. Christ has dealt with sin, and reconciled the world. Salvation has been achieved for all. It is not our sins dragged up again in the Investigative Judgment that excludes us from salvation. Only unbelief in the sacrifice of Christ can exclude us from God’s loving gift of perfect righteousness and eternal glory......

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org.au/panic_th.htm

[jabechler]

Sorry but I must be on the defense on this one. The investigative Judgement is a tenant of adventism and is most certainly from scripture. The new testament is only understood by undestanding the old. We must remember the 2 witness for the end time are the old and new testament. If we put away the old testamnet then we become confused as to the plan of salvation just as all other protestant churches. The investgative judgement has its basis in the sanctuary model in the old testament. Psalms 77:13 Thy way O God is in the sanctuary.... Every tenant of our faith can be found in the layout and process of the sanctuary service. And remember the temple was build per instruction of God based on the original in Heaven.

[StormyOne]

Sorry but I must be on the defense on this one. The investigative Judgement is a tenant of adventism and is most certainly from scripture. The new testament is only understood by undestanding the old. We must remember the 2 witness for the end time are the old and new testament. If we put away the old testamnet then we become confused as to the plan of salvation just as all other protestant churches. The investgative judgement has its basis in the sanctuary model in the old testament. Psalms 77:13 Thy way O God is in the sanctuary.... Every tenant of our faith can be found in the layout and process of the sanctuary service. And remember the temple was build per instruction of God based on the original in Heaven.thanks for sharing your views.... I don't share them... your premise assumes that if something is discarded it will negate our understanding... Jesus died for all humankind, His sacrifice was enough... the beliefs that we have formulated based on faulty interpretation will not negate that salvation comes through Christ... The IJ makes no sense from a practical standpoint...

[LionCat]

.

[DrStupid_Ben]

Sorry but I must be on the defense on this one. The investigative Judgement is a tenant of adventism and is most certainly from scripture. The new testament is only understood by undestanding the old. We must remember the 2 witness for the end time are the old and new testament. If we put away the old testamnet then we become confused as to the plan of salvation just as all other protestant churches. The investgative judgement has its basis in the sanctuary model in the old testament. Psalms 77:13 Thy way O God is in the sanctuary.... Every tenant of our faith can be found in the layout and process of the sanctuary service. And remember the temple was build per instruction of God based on the original in Heaven.


The problem is that the old testament doesn't support the ij. The new testament shows us the fulfillment of the old sanctuary by Christ's redeeming work. To say that that means you are negating the old testament just doesn't fit. The two testaments work in partnership. One pointing the way, the other showing the fullfilment.

How are other denominations confused about salvation? It seems to me that it is us Adventists who are the ones confused. Christ died for our sins (fullstop). After he rose from the dead, he ascended to his father's right hand. The gospel writers highlighted the tearing of the curtain in the temple for a good reason. It is showing the fullfilment of the sanctuary message in Christ dying on the cross for our sins.

[StormyOne]

The problem is that the old testament doesn't support the ij. The new testament shows us the fulfillment of the old sanctuary by Christ's redeeming work. To say that that means you are negating the old testament just doesn't fit. The two testaments work in partnership. One pointing the way, the other showing the fullfilment.

How are other denominations confused about salvation? It seems to me that it is us Adventists who are the ones confused. Christ died for our sins (fullstop). After he rose from the dead, he ascended to his father's right hand. The gospel writers highlighted the tearing of the curtain in the temple for a good reason. It is showing the fullfilment of the sanctuary message in Christ dying on the cross for our sins.amen....

[jabechler]

The problem is that the old testament doesn't support the ij. The new testament shows us the fulfillment of the old sanctuary by Christ's redeeming work. To say that that means you are negating the old testament just doesn't fit. The two testaments work in partnership. One pointing the way, the other showing the fullfilment.

How are other denominations confused about salvation? It seems to me that it is us Adventists who are the ones confused. Christ died for our sins (fullstop). After he rose from the dead, he ascended to his father's right hand. The gospel writers highlighted the tearing of the curtain in the temple for a good reason. It is showing the fullfilment of the sanctuary message in Christ dying on the cross for our sins.
How does the old testament completion address the day of atonement( the cleansing of the sanctuary). I can see the fulfillment of the sacraficial service since Christ became the Lamb slain, but what act of Christ fulfilles the cleansing and blotting out of recorded sin. and what or who was the scapegoat which all the sins are placed on and sent out of the camp.

[StormyOne]

How does the old testament completion address the day of atonement( the cleansing of the sanctuary). I can see the fulfillment of the sacraficial service since Christ became the Lamb slain, but what act of Christ fulfilles the cleansing and blotting out of recorded sin. and what or who was the scapegoat which all the sins are placed on and sent out of the camp.there is a danger in trying to make the symbol fit in every detail to the work Christ did for us... Remember in John 17 (before the crucifixion) Jesus prayed and in that prayer he said that he had completed his work..... think about that.... John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

[jabechler]

there is a danger in trying to make the symbol fit in every detail to the work Christ did for us... Remember in John 17 (before the crucifixion) Jesus prayed and in that prayer he said that he had completed his work..... think about that.... John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Then I pose this question. If all has been fulfilled and Christ has completed in his people all that scripture asks of us( justification and sanctification and Glorification then why has Christ not returned to take us home.

[StormyOne]

Then I pose this question. If all has been fulfilled and Christ has completed in his people all that scripture asks of us( justification and sanctification and Glorification then why has Christ not returned to take us home.its in the prayer and in the words of Jesus... in his prayer he prays that his followers be one so that the world might believe that he was sent. He also tells his disciples that the gospel will be preached as a "witness" then the end will come. Looking up the word witness in that context it means some type of evidence. Not teaching doctrine per se, but something that people can see, that will cause them to believe.... what is that something? That the followers of Jesus be one.

The early church had it briefly, then divisions crept in. Paul wrote repeatedly about it. Let no divisions be among you. I tried to talk to you as adults but because you have divisions, and arguing, and envy you are just babes....

What is the evidence that the followers of Christ are indeed followers of Christ? They are one.... they are unified.... what has not been completed is that we have not allowed the Holy Spirit to recreate the character of Christ in us, unifying us..... some times we appear to be going in the opposite direction....

[RC_NewProtestants]

its in the prayer and in the words of Jesus... in his prayer he prays that his followers be one so that the world might believe that he was sent. He also tells his disciples that the gospel will be preached as a "witness" then the end will come. Looking up the word witness in that context it means some type of evidence. Not teaching doctrine per se, but something that people can see, that will cause them to believe.... what is that something? That the followers of Jesus be one.

The early church had it briefly, then divisions crept in. Paul wrote repeatedly about it. Let no divisions be among you. I tried to talk to you as adults but because you have divisions, and arguing, and envy you are just babes....

What is the evidence that the followers of Christ are indeed followers of Christ? They are one.... they are unified.... what has not been completed is that we have not allowed the Holy Spirit to recreate the character of Christ in us, unifying us..... some times we appear to be going in the opposite direction....
The question is what do you mean by being unified. Unified in our allegence to God I would hope is your answer. Yet even in allegence to God there is room for disagreement. For instance I would acknowledge the importance of each believer having the mind of Christ. This is the same as saying that each believer listens to the prompting of God and follows after God. But I don't believe any man this side of heaven will attain the Character of Christ. Because that implies perfection, because Christ is sinless and we are not. So our unity is not found in being able to reproduce the character of Christ but found in our acceptance of the gift of life given by the character of God as revealed to us in Christ. To accept the gift requires that one acknowledge the giver and the giver is still in charge of when the gift fulfillment is made as frankly we don't have the ability to know when the second coming should be. If people want to speculate and have fun guessing at reasons that is fine as long as they realize they are only guessing. It may be quite a while and I think the gospel has not even been preached in the Christian world yet. But that is my speculation...but I think that I am pretty close to the mark but that is another subject.

[StormyOne]

The question is what do you mean by being unified. Unified in our allegence to God I would hope is your answer. Yet even in allegence to God there is room for disagreement. For instance I would acknowledge the importance of each believer having the mind of Christ. This is the same as saying that each believer listens to the prompting of God and follows after God. But I don't believe any man this side of heaven will attain the Character of Christ. Because that implies perfection, because Christ is sinless and we are not. So our unity is not found in being able to reproduce the character of Christ but found in our acceptance of the gift of life given by the character of God as revealed to us in Christ. To accept the gift requires that one acknowledge the giver and the giver is still in charge of when the gift fulfillment is made as frankly we don't have the ability to know when the second coming should be. If people want to speculate and have fun guessing at reasons that is fine as long as they realize they are only guessing. It may be quite a while and I think the gospel has not even been preached in the Christian world yet. But that is my speculation...but I think that I am pretty close to the mark but that is another subject.It is not up to the believer to attain the character of Christ, that work belongs to the Holy Spirit... the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit as he transforms the life.....

[RC_NewProtestants]

It is not up to the believer to attain the character of Christ, that work belongs to the Holy Spirit... the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit as he transforms the life.....

I agree with the first phrase that it is not up to the believer to attain the character of Christ. I agree with the second phrase also that the Holy Spirit Transforms the life. So I guess we are in agreement that the issue is not attaining the character of Christ.

So the only thing I left out of your quote is this phrase:
"that work belongs to the Holy Spirit", if that work is really left up to the Holy Spirit, that work being to bring the believer to character perfection i.e the character of Christ, then the Holy Spirit has fallen down on the job pretty badly for nearly 2000 years. Now since I believe that the Holy Spirit is God and just as perfect as Christ I don't accept the idea that the Holy Spirit has neglected His job. So it would seem that God has not designed for humans to attain the character of Christ this side of heaven. After the second coming when the corruptible is changed to incorruptible in the twinkling of the eye. Then it would be conceivable that the change in charcter is made. For now we see darkly but then we will see face to face. Which again leaves us with unity being something other then having attained the character of Christ unless by that phrase you mean to love one another which is certainly the character of God and certainly our goal though again we often fail.

[StormyOne]

So the only thing I left out of your quote is this phrase:
"that work belongs to the Holy Spirit", if that work is really left up to the Holy Spirit, that work being to bring the believer to character perfection i.e the character of Christ, then the Holy Spirit has fallen down on the job pretty badly for nearly 2000 years. Now since I believe that the Holy Spirit is God and just as perfect as Christ I don't accept the idea that the Holy Spirit has neglected His job. So it would seem that God has not designed for humans to attain the character of Christ this side of heaven. After the second coming when the corruptible is changed to incorruptible in the twinkling of the eye. Then it would be conceivable that the change in charcter is made. For now we see darkly but then we will see face to face. Which again leaves us with unity being something other then having attained the character of Christ unless by that phrase you mean to love one another which is certainly the character of God and certainly our goal though again we often fail.just because humans have not cooperated with the Holy Spirit does not mean He has failed.... we have a choice, cooperate with the transformation or attempt to do it on our own... most have attempted to do it on their own....

[RC_NewProtestants]

But that is not what you said:

It is not up to the believer to attain the character of Christ, that work belongs to the Holy Spirit... the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit as he transforms the life.....

If it is not up to the believer then how can it be up to the believer to cooperate. I agree the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit to transform their life. That is what repentance and faith are all about.

[StormyOne]

But that is not what you said:



If it is not up to the believer then how can it be up to the believer to cooperate. I agree the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit to transform their life. That is what repentance and faith are all about.it is up to the believer to cooperate... it is not up to the believer to attempt to reproduce the character of Christ in their lives... they can't do it... so its cooperate and be transformed, or attempt in vain to perfect yourself....

[RC_NewProtestants]

so its cooperate and be transformed, or attempt in vain to perfect yourself....

So your position is that no one has cooperated with the Holy Spirit yet' otherwise they would have attained to the character of Christ?

as you earlier said:
what has not been completed is that we have not allowed the Holy Spirit to recreate the character of Christ in us, unifying us

[icedragon101]

I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place

[DrStupid_Ben]

I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place
From your study, what convinces you that 2300days is 1day=1year?

[icedragon101]

From your study, what convinces you that 2300days is 1day=1year?

there are only a few options
option 1 date of book
a. 2nd century - if you take Daniel written in the 2nd century, bc. the you religate to a piece of propaganda literature or the Maccabean Wars.
b. 6th century - if you take Daniel written in the 6th century then you must take it as reads and there fore inspired because the visions are predicting the rise and fall of empires before they happen. how do you explain that except by divine revelation.

option 2.

a. 1 day = 1 day - if 1 day = 1 day then find the start of the 2300 day count off the 2300 day find corresponding event. you only have 3 options.

b. 1 day = 1 year if 1 day = 1year then find the start of the 2300 day count off the 2300 day find corresponding event. you only have 3 options

c. 1 day = 1000 years - 1 day = 1000 years then find the start of the 2300 years count off the 2300 years find corresponding event. you only have 3 options. by the way if this is the option then sit down we are going to be here a while.

option 3 start of prophecy

a. 535 b.c - exiles return to jerselaum. 70 year according jeremiah the release from captivity 605-535
b. 517/16 b.c - temple rebuilt 70 year prophecy applies here too 587/86-517/16
c. 457 b.c. - political power restored completely autonomous rule. a stand alone date with no corresponding 70 years date.


option 4
a. d=d
1. 535 + 6.5 yeas
2. 517/16 + 6.5 yeas
3. 457 + 6.5 years
b d=y
WHAT HAPPENED ON THESE DATES.

1. 535 + 2300 years = 1766
2. 517/516 + 2300 years =1784
3. 457 + 2300 years =1844

WHAT HAPPENED ON THESE DATES

C. D=1000 YEARS= YOU CAN FIGURE THIS ONE OUT YOUR SELF.

the only thing i can figure out is that somethng happened in 1844

[michaeneu]

I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place

I would like to have someone here tell me what they think happened in 1844 instead of the IJ. I don’t believe in the IG either but if one accepts the day for the year concerning the prophecy something commenced at that time. I’ve read the entire thread and my question is to those who don’t believe the doctrine of the IJ, but do believe the event culminated in 1844.
Michael

[StormyOne]

I would like to have someone here tell me what they think happened in 1844 instead of the IG. I don’t believe in the IG either but if one accepts the day for the year concerning the prophecy something commenced at that time. I’ve read the entire thread and my question is to those who don’t believe the doctrine of the IG, but do believe the event culminated in 1844.
Michael
something might have happened, or might not... how would we really know.... the day for a year concept is not consistently applied.... so the whole IJ belief is flawed in my opinion....

[michaeneu]

something might have happened, or might not... how would we really know.... the day for a year concept is not consistently applied.... so the whole IJ belief is flawed in my opinion....

There are several reasons that erev boker cannot be interpreted as a literal day. If taken literally then Antiochus Epiphanies becomes the little horn but he does not fulfill the prophecy. Let me explain.

The little horn is the source of transgressions against the sanctuary of Yahweh.

“And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation…” Daniel 8:12-13

As in the preceding chapters of Daniel the latter part of the chapter recapitulates and gives us greater revelation about the time of these transgressions by the little horn.

"Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people." Daniel 8:22-24

In speaking of the same transgression of verses 12 and 13 they are revealed in coming to their full at the latter time of the four kingdoms resulting in Alexander’s demise, which we’ve all heard before. Unequivocally these transgressors refer to Rome that came to its full as the Greek empires declined. Moreover, Rome and not Antiochus Epiphanies destroyed the mighty and holy people. To the contrary, the mighty and holy people defeated Antiochus Epiphanies. Further, the transgressors magnify and stand against the Prince of princes, which can only be Yahshua. Yahshua is the only Prince of princes (Revelation 1:5 and 19:16). Antiochus Epiphanies lived almost two centuries before Yahshua.

"And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand." Daniel 8:25

This invariably refers to Daniel 2:34 and the stone "cut out without hands." These transgressors persist until the time of the end when Yahshua returns to destroy the Roman papal system—which is also the beast from the sea.


Consequently, the only power that can be properly interpreted as the little horn is Rome, but what also must be considered is that it is Rome as its pagan and papal forms because this power is broken without hand.

In this context erev boker has only significance as years. It is no coincidence that a great awakening occurred over the world concerning this prophecy leading up to 1844. The ministration of Yahshua in the heavenly temple became the life’s work of many during this time. The papacy had suffered the deadly wound and was not healed before the rise of Protestantism made strides in restoring the righteousness of the spiritual sacrifices for a time to bring in a great harvest. But the final harvest foreshadowed by the autumnal feasts is still pending; anti-types have not met all types.

But the question still persists, the IJ cannot be upheld by the scriptures and so the event of 1844 must represent something else that has been overlooked.

Michael

[mva1985]

How does the old testament completion address the day of atonement( the cleansing of the sanctuary). I can see the fulfillment of the sacraficial service since Christ became the Lamb slain, but what act of Christ fulfilles the cleansing and blotting out of recorded sin. and what or who was the scapegoat which all the sins are placed on and sent out of the camp.

Question: In the heavenly Sanctuary model at what point does the scapegoat have all the sins placed upon him and he is sent out of the camp?

[RC_NewProtestants]

I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place
Actually as many have pointed out our IJ view is a chain of events and a great many of them don't work, in other words the chain has multiple breaks and it can't have those breaks to end up with our 1844 concept.

I have posted the following several places, including this forum I think and yet have never gotten an answer. So here one more time:

Is the Seventy Sevens "cut off" from the 2300 (http://cafesda.blogspot.com/2006/08/is-seventy-sevens-cut-off-from-2300.html)

One of the key points that will be brought out in most lesson studies this coming week is summed up in the following from Kenneth Hart’s notes (https://www.theox.org/images/images_A2115/SS-Gospel-1844-7-2006-08-12.pdf.htm.pdf):


9. Notice that the word used in Daniel 9:24 is translated “cut off”, “determined”, “decreed”, etc. The basic Hebrew word means “to cut off”. Cut off from what? The only plausible explanation is that this 490-year period is cut off from the 2300-year prophecy given in Daniel 8:14. If this is not the case then we have no identifiable points to which we can attach the 2300 day-year prophecy.
Dan 9:24
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. (NIV)


Strongs number and Definition 2852 chathak (khaw-thak'); a primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree: KJV-- determine.


I don’t know of any translation that actually translates the word as “cut off”. The particular word 2852 chathak is only used here in Daniel 9:24. It appears only wishful thinking that leads to the idea of meaning cut off from the 2300 evening and morning prophecy. As that prophecy did not really have any need for a starting date since it was dated by the desecration of the temple. Only if you assume that you cannot see this temple, i.e. that it is in heaven would you need a starting date.


Dan 8:13-14
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled-- the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"
14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." (NIV)


Here is how C. Mervyn Maxwell in his book the Magnificent Disappointment explains why you should take the70 sevens from the 2,300 days:


This is the decree that was to start the seventy weeks. And inasmuch as Gabriel’s reference to the decree was intended to help Daniel and us understand the 2,300 days, we know that the 2,300 days also began in 457 B.C. (page 42)


Since in both Dan. 2, 7 and 8 Daniel gives wide ranging prophecies which apparently run from the time of Babylon to the time of the Advent of Christ or the second coming of Christ depending on your view. It is hard to say that Daniel 9 is restricted to the 2300 evenings and mornings, that is, that it is an elaboration on the 2300 days. Clearly that was not what Daniel was concerned with at the start of the chapter or with his prayer as he specifically refers to the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah. If this was written in around the 500's B.C. time period there was no temple. To assume that the decree to rebuild the temple marks the beginning of the time period where the Temple is desecrated makes no sense at all. Yet this is what our traditional understanding has said. -457 + 2300 = 1843 + the year zero = 1844


So for the 2300 days to stand for the time of the desecration of the temple, the temple has to be desecrated from before it’s construction. If the sanctuary is not the one which Daniel was expecting, i.e. the rebuilt sanctuary of the decree, then the Adventist view has to have the sanctuary in heaven be trampled and desecrated by the little horn from the time of the decree to rebuild the earthly temple. In which case even before Christ came the heavenly sanctuary would have been desecrated. So in Adventist terminology from 4 centuries before any knew of the Messiah's work of intercession His work of intercession was being desecrated.


As Bill O’Reilly would say, “tell me where I am wrong?”

[icedragon101]

there are only a few options
option 1 date of book
a. 2nd century - if you take Daniel written in the 2nd century, bc. the you religate to a piece of propaganda literature or the Maccabean Wars.
b. 6th century - if you take Daniel written in the 6th century then you must take it as reads and there fore inspired because the visions are predicting the rise and fall of empires before they happen. how do you explain that except by divine revelation.

option 2.

a. 1 day = 1 day - if 1 day = 1 day then find the start of the 2300 day count off the 2300 day find corresponding event. you only have 3 options.

b. 1 day = 1 year if 1 day = 1year then find the start of the 2300 day count off the 2300 day find corresponding event. you only have 3 options

c. 1 day = 1000 years - 1 day = 1000 years then find the start of the 2300 years count off the 2300 years find corresponding event. you only have 3 options. by the way if this is the option then sit down we are going to be here a while.

option 3 start of prophecy

a. 535 b.c - exiles return to jerselaum. 70 year according jeremiah the release from captivity 605-535
b. 517/16 b.c - temple rebuilt 70 year prophecy applies here too 587/86-517/16
c. 457 b.c. - political power restored completely autonomous rule. a stand alone date with no corresponding 70 years date.


option 4
a. d=d
1. 535 + 6.5 yeas
2. 517/16 + 6.5 yeas
3. 457 + 6.5 years
b d=y
WHAT HAPPENED ON THESE DATES.

1. 535 + 2300 years = 1766
2. 517/516 + 2300 years =1784
3. 457 + 2300 years =1844

WHAT HAPPENED ON THESE DATES

C. D=1000 YEARS= YOU CAN FIGURE THIS ONE OUT YOUR SELF.

the only thing i can figure out is that somethng happened in 1844FYI i am no longer convinced of this. I am convinced nothing happened in 1844

[djconklin]

the day for a year concept is not consistently applied
Can you give us concrete examples?

Notice that the word used in Daniel 9:24 is translated “cut off”, “determined”, “decreed”, etc. The basic Hebrew word means “to cut off”. Cut off from what?
The Hebrew word "chathak" means "to divide, determine" not "cut off". In the LXX they used the word "krino" meaning "to judge, decide." In this case then, the best translation of the word is "determine."

And the author goes on to assume that it is "cut off" from the 2300 days. It is better to not make an assumption that is without proof.

a. 2nd century - if you take Daniel written in the 2nd century, bc. the you religate to a piece of propaganda literature or the Maccabean Wars.
Unfortunately, there is no concrete evidence for this option. It is far more likely (based on the evidence we do have; see http://www.666man.net/Dating_the_Book_of_Daniel_by_David_Conklin.html -- 84 different lines of evdience.) that the book was written during the time frame it portrays.

FYI i am no longer convinced of this. I am convinced nothing happened in 1844
If that was true then we'd have to ask why did God give a prophecy that points to that date if nothing happened? It isn't logical or reasonable.

[StormyOne]

Can you give us concrete examples?
sure I could, however given the fact that you believe as you do, and I am not here to dissuade you from that believe, the point would be what?

[daro2096]

I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place
Compare the visions of Daniel 2, 7, 8 and 9 and 10 to 12

In Daniel 2 we have:
Babylon - gold
Medo-Persia - silver
Greece - brass
Pagan Rome - iron
Divided Europe - iron and clay
Second Coming - stone

Daniel 7 we have:
Babylon - lion
Medo-Persia - bear
Greece - leopard
Pagan Rome - terrible beast
Divided Europe - ten horns
Little Horn
Judgment
Second Coming

Daniel 8(which continues in 9) we have:
Medo-Persia - ram
Greece - goat
Pagan Rome - little horn
Papal Rome(the Little Horn)
Sanctuary cleansed
Second Coming

Daniel 10 to 12 we have:
Medo-Persia(the four kings)
Greece(the first king and then it is divided to the four winds of heaven)
Pagan and Papal Rome(king of the north and the south)
Time of the End
Second Coming

The vision is repeated four times each time new information is added.

Using the visions we can come to the conclusion that judgment and the sanctuary being cleansed and the time of the end are all the same events.

[daro2096]

FYI i am no longer convinced of this. I am convinced nothing happened in 1844
Well since the event happened in heaven of course nothing happened on earth in 1844.

Jesus on October 22nd 1844 moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place and judgment began and is still going on today. Does this mean that Jesus' work in the Holy Place is finished? No, of course not. Even on Atonement Day in Israel the priests would still ministered in both compartments.

When Jesus said it was finished on the cross he was refering to the earthly mission. Even in the sanctuary when the lamb was killed that wasn't the end of the story. The sinner walked away free but the priest still had some work to. The sinner transferred his sins onto the head of the lamb and then the priest took the blood of the animal into the Holy Place where it would be sprinkled on the altar of incense(someone correct me if wrong). Then once a year on Atonement Day the High Priest would enter the Most Holy Place with the blood of the Lord's Goat and sprinkle the blood on the Mercy Seat. Then the High Priest would symbolically take onto himself the sins confessed in the sanctually for the last 12 months and confess them and place them on the head of the scapegoat which would be taken away into the wilderness far away from the camp(tradition says the scapegoat was killed once lead into the wilderness to make sure it didn't wonder back into the camp).

This is what Jesus is doing right now in the heavenly sanctuary but instead of goat's and lamb's blood he is using his own blood.

[daro2096]

When Jesus died on the cross that fulfilled Passover. When he was resurrrected that fulfilled Firstfruits.
When the Holy Spirit decended on the followers fifty days after resurrection that fulfilled the Feast of Weeks and Pentecost.

We currently live in the time of Atonement Day.

All the feasts have been fulfilled, there is only one left to be fulfilled and that is the feast of Tabernacles.

[StormyOne]

no one has any proof that anything happened in heaven in 1844.... that is the flaw... it cannot be proven one way or another....

[DIMPLESTEN]

good morning everyone! I am a newbie to this site and is just trying to find my way around. If i have entered the wrong thread let me know. I am have been a backslider for many, many years and is on my way back to the church and was just looking for fellowship amongst members of the sda church. I am still refreshing my teaching on the church and Ellen G White again, as it has been 20 yrs since i have been an active member.If this is not the thread, pls let me know and direct me to one that i may fellowship. thanks.

[StormyOne]

good morning everyone! I am a newbie to this site and is just trying to find my way around. If i have entered the wrong thread let me know. I am have been a backslider for many, many years and is on my way back to the church and was just looking for fellowship amongst members of the sda church. I am still refreshing my teaching on the church and Ellen G White again, as it has been 20 yrs since i have been an active member.If this is not the thread, pls let me know and direct me to one that i may fellowship. thanks.
welcome... you can fellowship anywhere on the forum you wish, I guess the question that needs to be answered is what kind of fellowship are you seeking? Here in this sub forum we kind of bounce around thoughts and ideas about any and everything, nothing is off limits, so that may or may not be something you want to do right now.... you are more than welcome to share and interact with us, I am just kinda letting you know what to expect....

[sentipente]

Dimple, you may want to stick to the main forum. If a post rubs you the wrong way just ignore it until you get your sea legs under you.

[sentipente]

David, have you thought these things through or are you merely restating what someone told you?