"Reformed" or just "Real"?

[BondGirl]

Is it really that the SDA Church is becoming "Reformed" - or are we not beginning to become "Real"?

Acutally understanding the "good" and "bad" within the religion - trying to expose it, thus - changing it for the good/better?

Thoughts?

[StormyOne]

Is it really that the SDA Church is becoming "Reformed" - or are we not beginning to become "Real"?

Acutally understanding the "good" and "bad" within the religion - trying to expose it, thus - changing it for the good/better?

Thoughts?
Well there is a Reformed SDA movement and they are more conservative than the traditional SDAs... but there are progressive sda's who are doing as you suggest, dealing with the good and bad, make a change where possible.... Not everyone shares the opinion that change is needed.....:(

[BondGirl]

Change is always needed until JESUS comes. When we become "settled" and think there is nothing to change, this is when we are in the most trouble...

[HoneyDew]

There is a request on file for the Mods to change the name of this sub-forum to Progressive.

Also, to the correct spelling of Seventh-day Adventist.

[BondGirl]

This seems to be a nice board....hopefully the small changes will take place...and more people will hit this thread and tell me what they think too -

Honey...Stormi.....Thanks!

[Princessdi]

BondGirl, there is a lot that is right about our church, but that which is bad is very bad and often overlooked, explained away or just plain ignored. This pretty much makes us like every other denomination to which we generally feel superior. If we were really serious about being the "Remnant" church we would be serious about ironing out those spots and wrinkles.

[moicherie]

BondGirl, there is a lot that is right about our church, but that which is bad is very bad and often overlooked, explained away or just plain ignored. This pretty much makes us like every other denomination to which we generally feel superior. If we were really serious about being the "Remnant" church we would be serious about ironing out those spots and wrinkles.

Amen! :thumbsup:

[Dizahab]

BondGirl, there is a lot that is right about our church, but that which is bad is very bad and often overlooked, explained away or just plain ignored. This pretty much makes us like every other denomination to which we generally feel superior. If we were really serious about being the "Remnant" church we would be serious about ironing out those spots and wrinkles.

Amen! :thumbsup:

What spots and wrinkles are you referrng to? Please be specific.

[HoneyDew]

Wow. A newbie. Welcome to CF. First time posting on CF? Why not introduce yourself on the main forum so the others will be able to welcome you, Dizahab?

[Princessdi]

WEll, we basically suffer from the same ills from which society suffers. We will start with the fact that in the US our church is still, officially, segregated. Sure there is some blending here and there, but officially there are white conference and Regional[black] conferences. These were started because even though EGW gave instruction to do evangelism aamong the blacks, the white Adventist did not want to worship in the same churches with blacks,a nd sadly they still exist today. This is being discussed in depth in another thread. But we can start there. That is a huge wrinkle right there.


BTW, Welcome, I am a newbie myself!

[QUOTE=moicherie]

What spots and wrinkles are you referrng to? Please be specific.

[Dizahab]

WEll, we basically suffer from the same ills from which society suffers. We will start with the fact that in the US our church is still, officially, segregated. Sure there is some blending here and there, but officially there are white conference and Regional[black] conferences. These were started because even though EGW gave instruction to do evangelism aamong the blacks, the white Adventist did not want to worship in the same churches with blacks,a nd sadly they still exist today. This is being discussed in depth in another thread. But we can start there. That is a huge wrinkle right there.


BTW, Welcome, I am a newbie myself!

[QUOTE=Dizahab]

So you basically your upset because of what you perceive as racism in the church. May I ask if you attend an integrated church yourself? Also--if segration was instantly removed from the Adventist churches--what would be the next wrinkle that you see needs to be removed?

[StormyOne]

[QUOTE=moicherie]

What spots and wrinkles are you referrng to? Please be specific.

Well you are adventist... in your estimation is the church perfect and without problems?

[StormyOne]

So you basically your upset because of what you perceive as racism in the church. May I ask if you attend an integrated church yourself? Also--if segration was instantly removed from the Adventist churches--what would be the next wrinkle that you see needs to be removed?

Gotta deal with one wrinkle at a time...

[HoneyDew]

So you basically your upset because of what you perceive as racism in the church. May I ask if you attend an integrated church yourself? Also--if segration was instantly removed from the Adventist churches--what would be the next wrinkle that you see needs to be removed?


Editorializing already? Why would you assume the poster is upset?

[PaleHorse]

I think Dizahab askes a very insightful question;
Does any of the those that have posted to this thread, or feel the church is racist, attend an integrated church?

[awesumtenor]

I think Dizahab askes a very insightful question;
Does any of the those that have posted to this thread, or feel the church is racist, attend an integrated church?

Saying there is racism in the church is not the same thing as saying 'the church is racist'. I believe this thread mentions and is attempting to discuss the former, not the latter.

FWIW, the church where I attend and serve is, in fact, an integrated church and every Sabbath there are Chinese, Filipino, Latino, and white worshippers along with african, afro-caribbean and african-american worshippers...so I know first hand that it can be done, and done harmoniously.

The fact that such churches are the exception rather than the rule, even as folk continue to sing 'when we all get to heaven' is an issued that needs addressing because the walk and the talk of the church do not match up.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Princessdi]

Actually, I do attend a predmoninently black church, mainly because of the location. However, we have become multicultural over the years. We do have members of several nationalities, including a good sized spanish congregation that shares our church. We often have services together. most weeks they have their own, because most don't speak much english.

Now, for you second question.......sexism......

BTW, I am not upset. I guess I would be in I didn't know that God is in control, and I were not in relationship with Him. But as the song says, "This joy I have, the world didn't give to me, and world can't take it away!



[QUOTE=Princessdi]WEll, we basically suffer from the same ills from which society suffers. We will start with the fact that in the US our church is still, officially, segregated. Sure there is some blending here and there, but officially there are white conference and Regional[black] conferences. These were started because even though EGW gave instruction to do evangelism aamong the blacks, the white Adventist did not want to worship in the same churches with blacks,a nd sadly they still exist today. This is being discussed in depth in another thread. But we can start there. That is a huge wrinkle right there.


BTW, Welcome, I am a newbie myself!



So you basically your upset because of what you perceive as racism in the church. May I ask if you attend an integrated church yourself? Also--if segration was instantly removed from the Adventist churches--what would be the next wrinkle that you see needs to be removed?

[Dizahab]

[QUOTE=Dizahab]

Well you are adventist... in your estimation is the church perfect and without problems?

Nothing on this earth is perfect.

[Dizahab]

Gotta deal with one wrinkle at a time...

I would like to have you propose some "cures" for this wrinkle please.

[Dizahab]

Editorializing already? Why would you assume the poster is upset?

Having read many of the posts in your threads--it's easy to see the obsession with this issue. Of course people of color are upset over segregation--to deny this would be dishonest. There is no need to be so defensive HoneyDew.

[HoneyDew]

Having read many of the posts in your threads--it's easy to see the obsession with this issue. Of course people of color are upset over segregation--to deny this would be dishonest. There is no need to be so defensive HoneyDew.


Of course, you know better, Dizahab, than the poster what their mood is. Fabulous!!! :thumbsup:

The poster, PrincessDi, has indicated what her mood is.

[StormyOne]

I would like to have you propose some "cures" for this wrinkle please.

dismantle the .org and start over from scratch organizationally...

[StormyOne]

Having read many of the posts in your threads--it's easy to see the obsession with this issue. Of course people of color are upset over segregation--to deny this would be dishonest. There is no need to be so defensive HoneyDew.
Interesting... you stomp on my foot everytime you pass and then wonder why I wince in pain when I see you coming..... it is not obsession when one choses to speak out against practices that are anti-christian, it's a ministry....What is interesting is that there are so few people who are christians and belong to the majority population who are not upset over segregation...

[HoneyDew]

:)
Have a good day y'all.

[StormyOne]

:)
Have a good day y'all. I am having a splenderforous day.... hope you do too!!! :thumbsup:

[Dizahab]

Interesting... you stomp on my foot everytime you pass and then wonder why I wince in pain when I see you coming..... it is not obsession when one choses to speak out against practices that are anti-christian, it's a ministry....What is interesting is that there are so few people who are christians and belong to the majority population who are not upset over segregation...

I think that when the majority of ones posts are either directly or indirectly related to one certain theme--that it IS indeed an obsession. Jesus said if "I" be lifted up, I'll draw ALL men to me. Seems that if we would UPLIFT Jesus, who by the way is the ONLY answer to prejudice, then there would be no segragation; and prejudice, by either blacks or whites would cease.

[Dizahab]

dismantle the .org and start over from scratch organizationally...

Who would do the dismantling and the reorganizing? And what happens to the very important ministries and under departments while this happening? Shouldn't the dismantling be done decently and in order?

Your thoughts please.

[StormyOne]

I think that when the majority of ones posts are either directly or indirectly related to one certain theme--that it IS indeed an obsession. Jesus said if "I" be lifted up, I'll draw ALL men to me. Seems that if we would UPLIFT Jesus, who by the way is the ONLY answer to prejudice, then there would be no segragation; and prejudice, by either blacks or whites would cease.
You are entitled to your opinion... even when its wrong.... thank you for sharing....

Obsession is defined as:
1. Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or emotion, often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety.
2. A compulsive often unreasonable idea or emotion.

The posts I have read do not fit that definition...

[StormyOne]

Who would do the dismantling and the reorganizing? And what happens to the very important ministries and under departments while this happening? Shouldn't the dismantling be done decently and in order?

Your thoughts please.
Go read about the Memphis miracle. Google that phrase and read about how the black pentecostals and white pentecostals reconciled.... that will give you an idea...

[moicherie]

I think Dizahab askes a very insightful question;
Does any of the those that have posted to this thread, or feel the church is racist, attend an integrated church?

My local chuch is not racist we are mainly West Indian, a few White English and one White Jew and White Hispanics. However when the black immigrants came over to the British cities in the 1960's the white Adventists decided to attend the churches in the suburbs and then the countryside. Coincidence methinks not- more like 'Adventist white flight'.

In 2001 the white members asked for their own camp meeting tent so they could have their own camp meeting on the same grounds - despite objections from some on the conference council the conference caved in however the white members still did not show up. There was even a proposal back in the 1990's by the white members for regional conferences for whites the proposal was rejected by most of the British membership.

But never mind lets all sing, all together now "In Christ there is no east or west in Him no south or north but one great fellowship of love throughout the whole wide earth'"

What do you mean we ain't reach there yet ,we sing it dont we?????

[Dizahab]

Go read about the Memphis miracle. Google that phrase and read about how the black pentecostals and white pentecostals reconciled.... that will give you an idea...

Dear sir, I asked for YOUR opinion and that is what I want to hear. So if you would be so kind as to do that, it would be very nice. Thank you.

[StormyOne]

Dear sir, I asked for YOUR opinion and that is what I want to hear. So if you would be so kind as to do that, it would be very nice. Thank you.
You have been given my opinion... go... read.... then you will understand.....

[StormyOne]

From your posts, I feel you are obsessed with this racism issue. But I will not argue the point. All is well. Thank you.
Nothing to argue... you are entitled to your "feelings" even when they are wrong... In my opinion the comments made do not reflect an obsession, and while you "feel" they constitute an obsession you have offered no evidence that they do based on the definition of that word.

Based on your comments thus far I feel that in this particular area you are clueless..... clueless being defined as:

1. Lacking understanding or knowledge.

2. totally uninformed about what is going on; not having even a clue from which to infer what is occurring.

In my opinion were you more informed you would have more information which would enable you to tell the difference between an obsession and statements of fact...

Thank you though for sharing your feelings and your opinion....

[HoneyDew]

Stormy, why water a plant that is not thirsty?

[StormyOne]

Stormy, why water a plant that is not thirsty?Cause God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust... therefore we are to be complete in righteousness as is our Father in heaven.... (ummm my name is stormy thats what i do.... i bring the rain??? LOL)

Don't want it to be said, "I joined the forum, tried to engage in conversation, but they wouldn't talk to me...." Besides.... I look at it more like, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.... but you do show them the water...

[HoneyDew]

By the way, read the rules before baiting. What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

[HoneyDew]

Don't want it to be said, "I joined the forum, tried to engage in conversation, but they wouldn't talk to me...." Besides.... I look at it more like, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.... but you do show them the water...

Yeah, something like that. ;)
Prophecy fulfilled in all its glory.

[HoneyDew]

@ Stormy: how do you tell a person their feelings and opinions are wrong? Do you mean they have the wrong facts? Or what do you mean? Just curious because it is a tad confusing.

[StormyOne]

@ Stormy: how do you tell a person their feelings and opinions are wrong? Do you mean they have the wrong facts? Or what do you mean? Just curious because it is a tad confusing.Opinions are wrong when all the info is not considered.... feelings are wrong when all the info has not been considered..... example....

I can sign on this forum, see your name and think, "Hey Honeydew is on, I will send her a PM and see how she is doing, etc." So I do that and get no response. I send another and get no response.... so now I have several options, I can conclude that you are ignoring me, or that you didn't receive the private notes, or that something is wrong with your computer, or something is wrong with my computer, or your name is showing that you are here but you aren't, etc, etc, etc..... If I choose to believe you are ignoring me, and then choose to respond by feeling hurt, my feelings were genuine, but wrong, and my opinion was wrong too....

The only way I will know what really happened would be to talk to you for a while and ask if you got my messages, did you see me on, etc.... I cannot conclude just based on the initial info that my conclusions and feelings based on those conclusions were correct..... make sense?

[HoneyDew]

I just had to ask just for clarification ... you know how sometimes one can misunderstand.
Thanks :)

[StormyOne]

I just had to ask just for clarification ... you know how sometimes one can misunderstand.
Thanks :)yep... perhaps there is a kinder, gentler way to say the same thing, I forget not everyone knows if I am joking or serious....

[daveleau]

Shorter and less problematic thread. :) Please see this thread about why it got so much shorter: http://www.christianforums.com/t2252506-day-of-grace.html

[Seraph1m]

True and reasonable. It is always best to ask rather than assume and find oneself at odds when there was no actual problem to begin with. Just a lack of communication.

[BondGirl]

I attend an integrated church - so this is beyond the point......

BOT!

I think Dizahab askes a very insightful question;
Does any of the those that have posted to this thread, or feel the church is racist, attend an integrated church?

[BondGirl]

Off topic
You asked - here it goes....

1. Incest is not addressed in our church. It could be happening - but no one will say anything - until it is exposed to the media - then we get "huffy" about it.

2. Molestation has went on for years without any recourse.

3. Gay & Lesbian issues are not discussed other than "Don't do it"....

4. Racial issues are not discussed.

5. Age-ism (the need to discriminate against the young) is not discussed.

6. EGW vs. The Bible.

7. Vegetarianism vs. Veganism vs. Meat-Eater (can we all go to heaven?)

8. Business meetings on the Sabbath?

9. Wine = Grape Juice <or> Wine = Wine?

10. WE are the remenant church. Like we are the only one's that will be saved.

There's a start. Now BOT!

[QUOTE=moicherie]

What spots and wrinkles are you referrng to? Please be specific.

[BondGirl]

Bump - I jes wanna know folks!

[Dizahab]

Bump - I jes wanna know folks!

What is this "bump" term mean? Your slang words are new to me.

[StormyOne]

What is this "bump" term mean? Your slang words are new to me.it means that someone will post a comment to activate the thread and move it to the top again.....

[BondGirl]

Sorry....

*ahem*

Bump - to make a post to "move" a thread up in the ranking on the front page - so it is visible (more "readily" visible) to others for comments, reading, and discussion among the members heretofore. "Bump" is a term used on forum/chats within the US and in a few other Countries....

Carry on!

What is this "bump" term mean? Your slang words are new to me.

[BondGirl]

Bump - please discuss....

[thehayesman]

I think these are great points to confront in your denomination. I'm a baptist, and we struggle with some of the same issues, though some are clearly denominationally specific. I hope we can all learn to keep on changing things as you say until Jesus comes. Stagnant churches will be made to serve Satan eventually, its true.:crosseo:

[BondGirl]

I think these are great points to confront in your denomination. I'm a baptist, and we struggle with some of the same issues, though some are clearly denominationally specific. I hope we can all learn to keep on changing things as you say until Jesus comes. Stagnant churches will be made to serve Satan eventually, its true.:crosseo:

This was a deep statement and I want your permission to quote you....

Very deep! :amen:

[Joshua J. Daigle]

If we were really serious about being the "Remnant" church we would be serious about ironing out those spots and wrinkles.

Amen.

[Joshua J. Daigle]

WEll, we basically suffer from the same ills from which society suffers. We will start with the fact that in the US our church is still, officially, segregated. Sure there is some blending here and there, but officially there are white conference and Regional[black] conferences. These were started because even though EGW gave instruction to do evangelism aamong the blacks, the white Adventist did not want to worship in the same churches with blacks,a nd sadly they still exist today. This is being discussed in depth in another thread. But we can start there. That is a huge wrinkle right there.


BTW, Welcome, I am a newbie myself!

I did not realize, until about 3 years ago, that there were white and black conferences. I was so dis-heartened when I found out. I guess I was lucky growing up, as we had both black and white congregation members.

[Jon0388g]

Firstly:eek: to the white/black conferences? This absolutely does not happen in the UK! If there is a predominantly white/black church it is purely based on the area.

Bondgirl in response to your 'spots' that need wrinkling out, I feel that yes there are some issues that need to be worked on, but most of them are mere opinion-based. Meat eating/ageism etc are all based on what varies from person to person within the church, and culture-wise.

I was expecting you to bring up the two most evident prickly issues in our church today - and that is firstly the doctrine of the Sanctuary and the Investigative Judgement, and secondly the issue of Ellen White. You did mention "Ellen White vs. the Bible," but I'm pretty confident most Adventists will agree that the lesser light only points to the Greater Light; the Bible. Yes some Adventists like to over-quote and go crazy but for the majority. Ellen White the person - her validity especially as a prophet is still not concretely agreed in the Church - not for me anyways.

Jon

[Sunrunner]

I must admit, I haven't heard about the White/Black conferences until now.

I've sent in a question about that to letstalk.adventist.org, so I'll see what the answer is.

[StormyOne]

I must admit, I haven't heard about the White/Black conferences until now.

I've sent in a question about that to letstalk.adventist.org, so I'll see what the answer is.
well its not a secret.....exactly.... though its not something the church should be proud of.......

[Jimlarmore]

I've never understood why we have separate conferences for black and white christians. In the area of the U.S. where I live we have all black churches but in these particular churches there are white people that attend regularly and vice versa black people that attend in the white ones. I for one would be about changing this in the General Conference asap. There is no need for an all black conference in our denomination. There will certainly be no color distinction in heaven why should we participate in that kind of thing now?

[StormyOne]

power and control are usually the reasons for these kinds of separations...... and since separate conferences have been in existence for 60 yrs., both sides are probably reluctant to give up or share the power...

[BondGirl]

I'm back....bumpin' for the discussion to restart....
Still gotta work on these "spots and wrinkles."

[sentipente]

You did mention "Ellen White vs. the Bible," but I'm pretty confident most Adventists will agree that the lesser light only points to the Greater Light; the Bible.
EGW did not call the Bible the greater light in that oft-quoted quotation. The context shows that she was referring to Jesus Christ.

[mva1985]

EGW did not call the Bible the greater light in that oft-quoted quotation. The context shows that she was referring to Jesus Christ.

Context of the quote:
"The Lord has sent His people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light. Oh, how much good would be accomplished if the books containing this light were read with a determination to carry out the principles they contain! There would be a thousandfold greater vigilance, a thousandfold more self-denial and resolute effort. And many more would now be rejoicing in the light of present truth.
My brethren and sisters, work earnestly to circulate these books. Put your hearts into this work, and the blessing of God will be with you. Go forth in faith, praying that God will prepare hearts to receive the light. Be pleasant and courteous. Show by a consistent course that you are true Christians. Walk and work in the light of heaven, and your path will be as the path of the just, shining more and more unto the perfect day.-- Review and Herald, Jan. 20, 1903."

[RC_NewProtestants]

This is actually the common misunderstanding of people. The Bible saves no one, I would hate to be considered a light that draws people to the Bible, rather I would want to be a light that points people to God.

LeRoy Moore wrote a good post on SDAnet about this and did a pretty good job of showing it is not a reference to the Bible. Of course if you pay attention to the Bible you should be drawn to the greater light of God, though of course that is not necessarily where you will be drawn.

[woobadooba]

This is actually the common misunderstanding of people. The Bible saves no one, I would hate to be considered a light that draws people to the Bible, rather I would want to be a light that points people to God.

LeRoy Moore wrote a good post on SDAnet about this and did a pretty good job of showing it is not a reference to the Bible. Of course if you pay attention to the Bible you should be drawn to the greater light of God, though of course that is not necessarily where you will be drawn.

The book itself does not save. However, the content of it does, as it is borne of God.

If you look at the Bible as though it were a lifeless novel, you won't fathom the profound nature of it. Nevertheless, if you look at it as though it were the Living Word of God, you will surely know that it has power to give life to the dead.

Sanctify them through Your truth. Your Word is truth.
(Joh 17:17)

[Sophia7]

I'm back....bumpin' for the discussion to restart....
Still gotta work on these "spots and wrinkles."

Welcome back. :)

[DrStupid_Ben]

"The Lord has sent His people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light. Oh, how much good would be accomplished if the books containing this light were read with a determination to carry out the principles they contain! There would be a thousandfold greater vigilance, a thousandfold more self-denial and resolute effort. And many more would now be rejoicing in the light of present truth.
My brethren and sisters, work earnestly to circulate these books. Put your hearts into this work, and the blessing of God will be with you. Go forth in faith, praying that God will prepare hearts to receive the light. Be pleasant and courteous. Show by a consistent course that you are true Christians. Walk and work in the light of heaven, and your path will be as the path of the just, shining more and more unto the perfect day.-- Review and Herald, Jan. 20, 1903."

It comes across as quite vague as to which light is which.

The Lord has sent His people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little.

This could be only the bible, particularly with the reference to the verse "line upon line etc...". It could be EGW's writtings only. It could also be inclusive of the entirety of revealed instruction (including tradition, experience, reason).

Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light.

So which light is the Bible, lesser or greater? EGW hasn't mentioned her writings yet.

Oh, how much good would be accomplished if the books containing this light were read with a determination to carry out the principles they contain!

"The books containing this light..." This is most likely the bible, but again, which light?

My brethren and sisters, work earnestly to circulate these books. Put your hearts into this work, and the blessing of God will be with you. Go forth in faith, praying that God will prepare hearts to receive the light. Be pleasant and courteous. Show by a consistent course that you are true Christians. Walk and work in the light of heaven, and your path will be as the path of the just, shining more and more unto the perfect day.--

Well this could be taken as the bible, or as her own literature, or as the general Christian literature available to them.

While it seems a bit vague at the start of that quote, I can see how one could come to the conclusion that the lesser light is her own writting, and the greater light is the bible. I could also see how one could read that all the inspired Christian (Adventist only?) literature would be the lesser light to the greater light.

One would have to read the whole article to get the full feeling for the context.

[sentipente]

The book itself does not save. However, the content of it does, as it is borne of God.

This seems to be one of those distinctions with no difference.

[woobadooba]

This seems to be one of those distinctions with no difference.

What intrinsic value does a book really have to someone if it is merely held in the hand, or put on a shelf, or regarded as some kind of charm if you will?

It's what's inside of a book that matters most. To discover its treasures one must peruse its pages.

Of course, when we speak of the Bible we aren't just talking about any ordinary book. We are talking about the Living Word of God.

Hence the distinction lies in what we do with it, or perhaps it is best to say that it manifests itself in what we allow it to do for us.

[sentipente]

Of course, when we speak of the Bible we aren't just talking about any ordinary book. We are talking about the Living Word of God.

He got jokes. I did not know the church councils had life giving power.